DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum NBA discussion

It's not just his 3 point shooting though. He's not creating his own shot like he did earlier in his career. He's also not knocking down deeper jumpers. His range is shrinking.

If you want a team other than Cleveland to give him a 5 year max deal, then I'd be perfectly fine with that too ..... because it would eliminate one competitor for a more valuable, younger player who is not in decline. Maybe someone offers him a max deal ...... but I just don't see it happening. Could he get a 4 year deal worth $40-$48 million? Sure, maybe someone gives him something like that. Do I see a team giving him a max deal of 4 years and $88 million? Probably not.

To Ytown's defense I saw Wade being given wide open shots at the elbows and him passing them up. It was to the point where I couldn't believe that a SHOOTING guard starting in the NBA wouldn't take an open 15 footer. It was Rondo-like.

I get what you're saying PDR. I think the component that's not being born out by the statistics is that previously those jumpers were contested. And now they're being straight up conceded. And he won't take them because he knows he can't consistently make them. And it makes him look pathetic.

What does Dwayne Wade do at a plus level anymore? I ask that seriously to you. If I were to answer it'd be getting to the basket and getting into passing lanes occasionally for steals.

But he's not a shooter. He's not a great passer. He doesn't spend energy locking anyone down.

I just see a guy whose skills are eroding, who lives by slashing to the basket and is getting older quick. What say you?

Here are some interesting links to consider as well:

CourtVision - Evolution of Dwayne Wade

And here:

Dwayne Wade Shot Chart

I see what you're saying PDR. It's why I always felt his prime wouldn't last very long because it relies mostly on athleticism. He is more effective in the post than in years past, but he's going to decline in #s dramatically.

Wade has put up those shots over the course of his career though. You are the one ignoring what he used to do. I stated that his game has condensed around the basket, and that he is taking shorter and shorter shots, sand you disputer that, saying that I don't know what I'm talking about. This despite the fact that he is taking fewer deep shots than he used to take.

The link that Heldawg posted shows exactly what I was saying. His game has condensed around the basket. You can try to be insulting, and ignore the facts, but it is fact. Wade used to take shots from all over the court. His game is getting shorter and shorter and shorter ..... and the article that Heldawg posted shows just that.

Posting a list of 14-15 ft jumpers only doesn't say much at all, except that he doesn't take a whole lot of 14-15' jumpers. That's not all midrange to deep shots. He still takes jump shots, and looking at his numbers on the courtvision link, he's still decent, but his shot, for a shooting Guard, he's well below James and Bosh.

Using your link, here are his jump shots for his career:

Link to your site

This past season, he took fewer jump shots than in other seasons in which he played a similar number of games. Now I will admit that he is shooting at a higher percentage than he has in the past, which I did not realize without looking at the numbers, but he is not taking shots like he used to either. In 2010, in 76 games, he took 810 jump shots. This past year, in 69 games, he took 661 jump shots.

Here is Wade's shot from 6 to12'.

Link

He hit the 3rd lowest % on shots from this range in his career, and took the most shots of his career in any one season from this range.

I can play with numbers too.

Now, go go back to being condescending.

I agree with you. Someone brought Joe Johnson, Amare, and Al Jefferson. Those are incredibly bad contracts. JUst because the money was given, doesn't mean the player deserves it. Teams just look at the present, and not 4 or 5 years down the road. Just look at Albert Pujols contact right now. Think the angels would want to redo that one? Anyone that signs wade to a max deal will regret it. Amare had 3 or 4 great seasons with the suns before he signed his max contract with the knicks. He even had 1 great season with the knicks. Many had questioned if his knees would hold up? The past 2 years hes played 76 games. He was 27 when he signed in new york. Wade doesn't have his bad knees, but he will be 32, and you would have to be really an idiot to think his body would hold up 3-4 yrs down the road, especially the way he looks for contact. He may get a max deal, but the team would be very shortsighted in my opinion.

Man, you like to go down swinging, eh?

Again, I've got to ask, and I know you think it's condescending, but based on your comments it's an entirely legitimate question:

Have you ever watched Dwyane Wade play much?

You started out discussing Wade by saying "He seems to have really dropped off as far as 3 point shooting goes."

Which is kind of a headscratcher. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but right off the bat sounds like a guy who hasn't seen much of Wade, and is just looking at his stats page.

You also argued that his range is shrinking, which it isn't. He never had much range. As another poster pointed out to you earlier, his skills aren't eroding to the point that he can't hit shots he once could, he's just taking less ill-advised shots and knowing his limitations.

And then, inexplicably (are on on pain meds right now?), you cap off this argument by pointing out that this last season, Wade took more 6-12 foot jumpers than any other point in his career.

I don't know how pointing out that he's taken more jumpers from the range you chose illustrates how his range is shrinking, but whatever.

And this last season, where he took more 6-12 foot jumpers than he ever has before, his shooting percentage from that range was 43.3%, which, of course, illustrates that his range is shrinking, because from 6-12 feet, he's a career 43.2% shooter.

Please explain to me how pointing out that Wade took more 6-12 jumpers this season than he ever has and hitting them at his career average shows that his range is shrinking.

I'd love to hear it.

Quote:

---

I can play with numbers too.

---

Anyone can play with numbers. Knowing what you're talking about is a different story.

Quote:

---

Now, go go back to being condescending.

---

You started this whole 'condescending' thing when I linked you to some Wiki articles on things like sign-and-trades, Bird rights, luxury tax, etc.

You don't seem like you knew much about basketball, so I started with the basics.

I get how you can see that as condescending, but like I said before, it's not an insult to say you don't know much about basketball. There's no shame in being a casual fan. I suggested that you ask more questions, and make less declarative statements. I stand by that.

Yes, I have watched him from time to time over the year.

I started out saying that he has really dropped off as far as 3 point shooting. He has. That is irrefutable, yet you try to refute it for some reason. He has taken far, far, far less shots from 3 point range in the past 2 years than in the prior years.

I stated that his range is shrinking, and posted a "shooting range" where most shooters can shoot from, and showed how his percentage of shots from that range has gone down, despite taking more shots. You still want to argue it.

Whatever. I get so tired of debating with you because you are so convinced of your perfection that it's ridiculous. I can't ever remember you saying that you were wrong about anything, even when you have been.

Have a nice evening ........ filled with condescending comments, no doubt.

He is taking fewer and fewer 3 point shots, and he took more shots from 6-12 feet, yet hit less of them.

The only place his shooting is consistent is right under the rim. That's it. His shooting circle is collapsing closer and closer to the basket. He can play under the rim, but he has less and less game outside of that very small circle right around the basket. His game has been limited, but it's getting more and more limited as time goes by.

The fact is that he is not shooting 3 pointers, which is what I said. he is hitting a lesser % of those more limited 3 pointers. He is also hitting a lower percentage of his jump shots. (outside of the 14-15' .... or whatever very, very limited shot charting you posted was)

I started out saying that Wade's shooting circle has been shrinking. You are arguing that it's not because he is shooting fewer of those outside shots ........ or something.

Wade's shooting circle is collapsing closer and closer to the basket. That is indisputable, yet you continue to dispute it. Wade is shooting fewer outside shots overall. That is not in dispute by anyone who sees what is going on. He is being left open on outside shots, because he won't take them, and can't make them. Continue to argue that this is not the case if you like. I'm done arguing with a wall.

I'm saying based on what you have been posting that you are the expert here and I am not. And I'm not being condescending on this as I know a lot more about football than basketball but I watch quite a bit and have for years.

And I need to boil this down to one thing and have you reply to it.

I'm almost positive this occurred in Game 6. It might have been Game 5.

Dwayne Wade was passed the ball in the left corner and dribbled toward the basket. The baseline was shut off and he moved toward a pick that Bosh was setting inside the left elbow. His defender didn't try to work over the screen, basically conceding a 15 footer unimpeded. And Wade didn't know what to do and gave the ball up to a player out of position behind the 3 point arc.

What I'm saying is I've never seen a play like that unfold recently outside of Rajon Rondo. And that has to be an extreme rarity on the SG world.

That's it.

I get what you were saying, man. I didn't mean to be rude. My main point of asking if you'd watched him was related to you saying that there was a change in those shots being contested or not. There was a brief period where Wade had a mid-range game working, so teams had to suddenly respect him a bit in that regard. But it was short lived. Most teams are willing to let Wade kill them from that range if he can (because he can't ).

But, yeah, wide open or not, a 15 footer has never been a part of his game.

I love the way you resort to insult after insult.

Have a nice night.

Another nice insult.

Have a good night.

I do love your almost perfect arrogance.

Much of this debate is opinion ...... but yours is, of course, the only relevant one. If someone disagrees with your learned and perfect opinion, then, of course, they must be inferior, lack knowledge, or be stoned.

I backed up why I feel the way I do. You disagree. Great. Your disagreeing with me only makes me feel better about my opinion.

Now, I am just not going to respond to you anymore. I'm not even going to bother reading your stuff, because I really don't feel like reading insults and condescending comments. I don't ignore people,so I am simply going to disregard you instead. You need not reply, because I will simply skip over your responses. I'm going to just delete your PM as well.I see no need to read or reply to that either.

Enjoy yourself. Have a nice day.

j/c:

You guys sure like to argue a lot.

So the Indians are fighting for first place, the Cavs and Browns have young potential all over the place...

Which shoe drops first?

From Lloyd's keyboard to God's ears .....

Jason Lloyd: Cavs should return to relevance much faster than NBA standard - Top Stories - Ohio
http://www.ohio.com/news/top-stories/jas...andard-1.412930

We had it all wrong.

For years, the Cavaliers have privately pointed to the Oklahoma City Thunder as the model franchise for small market NBA rebuilding efforts. But perhaps inadvertently, the Cavaliers jumped the tracks. They’re actually following former General Manager Kevin O’Connor’s plan in rebuilding the Utah Jazz.

Throughout the course of history, it has taken NBA teams the better part of a decade to return to relevance following the departure of a superstar. The Cavs are trying to cut that time in half.

The word relevant, of course, is rather ambiguous and open to interpretation. But even if Andrew Bynum doesn’t play a single minute this season, the Cavaliers should be playoff contenders in a top-heavy Eastern Conference that remains wide open at the bottom of the bracket.

That, to me, makes the Cavaliers relevant again.

To be clear, the rebuilding project isn’t yet complete. Even with a healthy Bynum, the Cavs aren’t yet in position to seriously challenge the Miami Heat or Brooklyn Nets for the top spots in the East. But the additions of Bynum, Jarrett Jack, Earl Clark, Anthony Bennett and Sergey Karasev should at least make basketball matter again in Cleveland when most folks are focused only on the NFL Draft.

There are at least two, and perhaps three, playoff spots open next season. The Boston Celtics and Milwaukee Bucks have taken hits to their roster and appear set on rebuilding projects. The Atlanta Hawks have a few moves left to make, but a comprehensive rebuild certainly seems possible. That leaves the bottom of the East wide open.

The Bucks earned the last playoff spot last season with 38 victories, which falls right in line with the average number of wins from the East’s No. 8 seed over the last five full seasons (38.4). If 38 victories is the target, the Cavs need to improve by 14 wins over last season. That certainly seems feasible.

And a playoff return just three years after LeBron James’ departure would be quite impressive by NBA standards.

The Chicago Bulls took seven years to make the playoffs following the departures of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. They won only one playoff series in 12 years before advancing to the conference finals two years ago.

The Orlando Magic didn’t win a playoff series for 12 years following the departure of Shaquille O’Neal.

The Boston Celtics needed a decade to win a playoff series following the retirement of Larry Bird, and it took the Los Angeles Lakers seven years to return to the Western Conference finals following Magic Johnson’s retirement.

That leaves the Jazz as the only team in recent history to complete a fast rebuild. The Jazz returned to the Western Conference finals just four years after the departures of John Stockton and Karl Malone.

“You need three things,” O’Connor told the Beacon Journal in 2011. “You need the ability to sign free agents, and that means money under the cap. You need draft picks and you need the ability to get lucky once in a while on players.”

The Cavs have had all three, enjoying their lucky break two years ago when an unexpected lottery pick landed a budding superstar in Kyrie Irving.

“We tried to keep our powder dry a little bit,” O’Connor said. “We didn’t overreact and sign guys that cosmetically would make us look better, but maybe for the long term wouldn’t succeed.”

Similarly, the Cavs steadfastly avoided free agency the last three years, spending a total of $7 million on guys like Joey Graham, Anthony Parker and C.J. Miles.

O’Connor found his opening during the summer of 2004. He signed Mehmet Okur to a six-year, $50 million offer sheet. Days later, when the Cavs blundered their way into allowing Carlos Boozer to become an unrestricted free agent earlier than he should have, O’Connor swooped in and stole him with a creative offer sheet the Cavs couldn’t match.

Likewise, the Cavs had the cap space to take a chance on Bynum this summer. They also pounced on Jack within hours of the Golden State Warriors renouncing his rights and added Earl Clark from a cap-strapped Lakers team that was unable to re-sign him.

In 2005, the Jazz had the extra assets needed to trade up from No. 6 to No. 3 to select point guard Deron Williams. They struck gold in the second round the following year when they drafted Paul Millsap, and by 2007, the Jazz were playing for another trip to the NBA Finals – just four years after losing both Stockton and Malone.

This fall will mark the fourth season without James, and to expect a trip to the conference finals is illogical. But expecting relevance again is fair.

Sometime during that miserable stretch three seasons ago, when the Cavs lost 36 out of 37 games in their first year without James, I was sitting in Byron Scott’s office and told him history indicated it would take the Cavs 10 years to return to relevance. He just laughed and shook his head.

“Ain’t no way it’ll take 10 years,” he said. “I don’t know how long it will take, but it won’t take 10 years.”

He was right. It only took three.

I am siding with PDR on this whole Wade thing. I think he's spot on.

When talking with people and discussing the Finals my favorite observation was that I can't believe that in 9 years Wade never developed a jump shot. It's actually quite mind boggling for the caliber of player he is and the amount of success he's had. If I'm an opposing coach I Rondo him all day and if you lose by Wade hitting jumpers then so be it. Sometimes Wade will take the challlenge and chuck them up there in a 'I'll show you manner'. If he's not hitting he still has a knack for getting to the basket even when they clog the lane. He's probably the best 6'4" SG I've ever seen.

He's an extremely underrated passer and rebounder. He has great court vision. And I've never seen a 6'4" guard rebound like him. Great timing and anticipation on his jumps. He has always reminded me of a poor man's early years MJ. Jordan was always an underrated passer and rebounder and he could get to the basket at will. The problem is Wade's game never developed beyond that. And he's still probably top 8 or better SG of all time.

On a personal level I can't stand the guy. I think he acts like a punk on and off the court.

Something Wade doesn't get credit for is his insane motor at times. He will throw his body around for a rebound or a chance at a block.

I was fine with the article until it said we "blundered" our way to allowing Boozer to leave as a FA.

We did the guy a favor.

I'd put Boozer up there with guys like LeBron, Melo, and Howard.

At least the guys they screwed saw it happen.

You know the old saying, "Never give a sucker an even break".

We did, and he screwed us over. Lesson should be learned.

From a business standpoint, I can understand calling it a 'blunder'. It was a really dumb and gullible move on the part of Gund and the front office.

With that said, I'm not crying over it.