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The more of you I read the more I realize we don't live in the same world . I do find some of what you say thought provoking and entertaining even if I get offended at times with the high hat but it takes all kinds in this world .
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I really don't see it as black and white as that.
I have dozens of friends and relatives I know who are very diligent with good work ethic, and they can't find jobs that support a reasonable lifestyle.
If merely working hard got you somewhere, we'd be way better off as a country.
I'm not saying that a lack of a work ethic isn't a problem in this country...it is. But it's not the cause of our economic woes. We've got plenty of Mexicans, Indians, Chinese, etc. more than willing to step in and fill those gaps.
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I guess the difference between us is that I believe people are much less capable of changing who they are than you do
That sentence right there is why our country is such a mess. People have been led to believe that they cannot change and make themselves better. Everything is someone else's fault. It is really disheartening to me that people believe that.  I'm not saying it is easy to change, but it is not impossible if you have the motivation to do so.
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MOST highly successful people work A LOT. Not just 40 hours and go home. I am of the opinion that everyone has the intelligence to do something better than work a minimum wage job IF THEY TRY! Problem is, a lot of the complainers want everything given to them for no real merit.
I agree.
$15 per hour is $600 per week....over 31K per year for entry level work.....no wonder this country is screwed.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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How do you read that link and come away with the concept that "Walmart is taking" anything from anybody? People who can't earn enough money can't afford much. To blame this on WalMart is non-sensical. There are other low-dollar employers, there are other jobs that just about anybody can do that pay a bit more.
If a Wal-mart job is the best that somebody can do, then if they want to make more money either find something better or learn to live with it.
So to make sure we're on the same page, you think its more fair that min wage workers enroll in taxpayer funded programs like food stamps and medicaid versus having the businesses foot the bill for these on behalf of its employees? Why should other individuals and small businesses subsidize these employment expenses?
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To what Nelson said...and looking at Wal-Mart as an example. If you cant get out of minimum wage there, you arent really putting in much effort either...
There are so many departments one can advance to that pay higher.
I had a friend working overnights in the produce department there paying for school and life bills, which included a child. Thats what had him at full time...but he made the effort and put in the work to get to that place, because it wasnt enough if he were making minimum wage.
In the service industry too...if youre "stuck" in a fast food restaurant job, you arent trying.
Yea Target or Applebees or other service jobs arent necessarily better...but you can do better there. The more you work, the harder you work, the more you can improve and the more you can achieve...
While we arent a 100% free market economy...we are an economy where your work ethic can be rewarded. But it comes with ingenuity too. But, at the same time it comes with conformity. If you have piercings that dont fit being in front of people, you might have to change, or work somewhere else (coffee shops and such could work).
It seems like like everyone has high expectations but dont understand whats needed to get to those expectations. Or care to get there.
We are getting to be a dependent society in a service based world. Its sad that jobs like mechanic are falling off because its a much necessary job. But there are jobs like electrician and other such jobs like that could be very lucrative.
Were actually an economy that could boost with manufacturing jobs. Theyre needed...
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Mechanics (service technicians), electricians, plumbers, ditch diggers, construction people, welders, etc..........those are all needed jobs. Those are jobs that can't be sent over seas.
But, those take learning. Starting at the bottom and working one's way up. Work ethic does it for you. Today's "give me now" ethic does not do that for you. There ARE jobs. Good paying jobs. But it requires effort on the part of the job hunter.........effort that, sadly, is too often missing.
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People have been led to believe that they cannot change and make themselves better. Everything is someone else's fault. It is really disheartening to me that people believe that.
For what it's worth, maybe they believe it because for the most part it's true.
Statistically, an American does not have a very realistic chance at improving their economic station in life. I understand that it happens, and it's possible, and there's no point in not swinging just because you'll probably strike out, etc.
But the best metaphor I've ver heard for our economic system is a casino. A guy walks in, sees another guy pull the lever, hears the whistles and bells, the lights flicker, and he thinks 'Hey, that could be me. I could be that guy.' But chances are you won't be. You're playing under house rules, and most of you are going to lose.
I'm not saying that's right or wrong, or that your feelings aren't justified, but I've seen a whole lot of 'work hard, and make something of yourself! You can do it!' in this thread, and that's really not true at all.
For most folks, there's an economic ceiling and they're not going to break through it. Doesn't mean they aren't working hard or trying or giving it their all. It's just a fact.
This isn't your grandfather's America anymore.
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I guess the difference between us is that I believe people are much less capable of changing who they are than you do
That sentence right there is why our country is such a mess. People have been led to believe that they cannot change and make themselves better. Everything is someone else's fault. It is really disheartening to me that people believe that. I'm not saying it is easy to change, but it is not impossible if you have the motivation to do so.
It's not a comforting thought, but I do believe it. The more reading I do in the sciences of human nature, the more I believe we are constrained by innate dispositions. One's environment has a lot to do with it, too, but there's not much one can do about one's intelligence. What sustains a work ethic? Isn't it the ability to look beyond the immediate to one's life in the future. If you know that your work now will benefit you later, you will work hard for this future. It is sad, but many people do not possess the necessary intelligence to understand that their work today impacts their future. This might be difficult for those on this board to understand because I believe everyone here is intelligent enough to possess a work ethic; at least, that's what everyone here reports. But when speaking of the Burger King lifer, we are dealing with a different type of person. They do not possess the necessary intelligence to do much better for themselves. This isn't a new phenomena, a product of a degenerate culture. Stratification by intelligence has always existed, and the correlated difference in work ethic has always existed. I'm not happy about it, but it seems to me the pragmatic thing to do is accept the reality of human difference and act accordingly. It's a hard thing for a democratic society to do, but I think it might be necessary.
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Mechanics (service technicians), electricians, plumbers, ditch diggers, construction people, welders, etc..........those are all needed jobs. Those are jobs that can't be sent over seas.
But, those take learning. Starting at the bottom and working one's way up. Work ethic does it for you. Today's "give me now" ethic does not do that for you. There ARE jobs. Good paying jobs. But it requires effort on the part of the job hunter.........effort that, sadly, is too often missing.
A friend of mine in Toledo owns a finish carpentry business. It was quite large prior to the 2008 housing meltdown. Now it is just him and his #1 right hand man from pre-2008. Prior to 2008, he could not find anyone even willing to learn the trade. They all wanted 20/hour without knowing squat. It frustrated the hell out of him that he was willing to teach people a trade and they didn't want to put in the effort. He'd hire people and they wouldn't show up on time, or at all, or drunk /high. It is pathetic and sad to listen to his stories. It seems people just don't want to start at the bottom anymore and work their way up.
#gmstrong
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The more of you I read the more I realize we don't live in the same world . I do find some of what you say thought provoking and entertaining even if I get offended at times with the high hat but it takes all kinds in this world .
Perhaps we don't, but I'm glad to at least be thought provoking and entertaining. That's better than being pedantic and dull.  But what is the "high hat"?
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I guess the difference between us is that I believe people are much less capable of changing who they are than you do
That sentence right there is why our country is such a mess. People have been led to believe that they cannot change and make themselves better. Everything is someone else's fault. It is really disheartening to me that people believe that. I'm not saying it is easy to change, but it is not impossible if you have the motivation to do so.
It's not a comforting thought, but I do believe it. The more reading I do in the sciences of human nature, the more I believe we are constrained by innate dispositions. One's environment has a lot to do with it, too, but there's not much one can do about one's intelligence. What sustains a work ethic? Isn't it the ability to look beyond the immediate to one's life in the future. If you know that your work now will benefit you later, you will work hard for this future. It is sad, but many people do not possess the necessary intelligence to understand that their work today impacts their future. This might be difficult for those on this board to understand because I believe everyone here is intelligent enough to possess a work ethic; at least, that's what everyone here reports. But when speaking of the Burger King lifer, we are dealing with a different type of person. They do not possess the necessary intelligence to do much better for themselves. This isn't a new phenomena, a product of a degenerate culture. Stratification by intelligence has always existed, and the correlated difference in work ethic has always existed. I'm not happy about it, but it seems to me the pragmatic thing to do is accept the reality of human difference and act accordingly. It's a hard thing for a democratic society to do, but I think it might be necessary.
If you believe that work ethic is associated with intelligence then we will never agree on this subject.
#gmstrong
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If you believe that work ethic is associated with intelligence then we will never agree on this subject.
Where did he say that?
Work ethic isn't associated with intelligence, but the ability to adapt is, in many ways.
If you were never instilled with a good work ethic, and you lack intelligence, the odds of adapting to possess a strong work ethic are very, very slim.
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Probably not, but try thinking about it in this way and you might be surprised at how well the template fits. Who are the people with the best work ethics you know? Would you consider them to be intelligent? What about the worst work ethics you know? How intelligent are these people? It's not a 1 to 1 relationship, I agree. Everyone probably knows one really intelligent person who doesn't work hard, but in general, I think there is a strong correlation between how intelligent a person is and how hard they work. I know you disagree, but consider it, at least.
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Guess when someone says " there's not much one can do about one's intelligence" followed by "What sustains a work ethic?" I took that to mean intelligence == work ethic.
Sorry form my limited book smarts that are not on the level of you and Mantis. The intellectual thought process that is going into this is well beyond my logical thought process.
#gmstrong
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No, you had it right. The fault is mine; I'm not doing a good job making my thoughts clear. I think PDR is just doing a better job of explaining what I mean.
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Probably not, but try thinking about it in this way and you might be surprised at how well the template fits. Who are the people with the best work ethics you know? Would you consider them to be intelligent? What about the worst work ethics you know? How intelligent are these people? It's not a 1 to 1 relationship, I agree. Everyone probably knows one really intelligent person who doesn't work hard, but in general, I think there is a strong correlation between how intelligent a person is and how hard they work. I know you disagree, but consider it, at least.
I'll agree that there may be a correlation between intelligence and work ethic, I think most would. However, I would ask you to consider if you think that society/government has driven those with less means to believe that they cannot attain success and to dislike those who have. IMO the reason that a lot of people who are "less intelligent" are that way because their upbringing did not value education. I really do believe that most everyone with an average IQ can be successful if they try - and "try" may mean working their tails off for not much in the beginning to better themselves for the future.
#gmstrong
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However, I would ask you to consider if you think that society/government has driven those with less means to believe that they cannot attain success and to dislike those who have.
Oh, on this point we can certainly agree. To accept that people are limited by their intelligence doesn't mean they should be turned into dependents and have resentment for those who do possess the ability to do much better instilled in them. Just because a person is not intelligent enough to do something more than work fast food does not mean they can't do the job well and with pride. And now we are getting back to the crucial point I should have made earlier but didn't. We need these people to take pride in what they do so that they do their job to the best of their ability. I think the wage they are paid to do their job is integral to building this pride. 15 dollars might be exorbitant, but the minimum wage should help achieve the goal of making the worker believe his/her labor is valued.
Money alone won't do it, though. We also have to allow them to take pride in their work. Just look at what has been said of fast food workers in this thread. It's shameful, really. How can a fast food worker take pride in their work when it is so devalued by their fellow citizens? So, ironically, it is accepting that some people are limited in what they are capable of that allows them to achieve everything they are capable of. It's counter-intuitive, I know, and not the usual conclusion reached by those who typically focus on human limitation.
I think you are right that human limitation, looked at in the wrong way, can cause people to become complacent. But the way I am talking about it should do the opposite. If someone like Nelson37 could accept that the Burger King worker is doing the best he/she can and give them the respect they deserve, it would be much easier for them to take pride in what they do. I don't think they can do it unilaterally, though. Those of us who are capable of doing more have to give them respect first and allow them to take pride in their work before they can have that pride for themselves.
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I don't see very many fast food workers who are doing the best that they can.
Respect, just like a wage and especially a raise, is not Given. IT IS EARNED. If you simply "give it" without relation to some real-world performance, it looses all value and meaning.
"ALLOW THEM" to take pride in their work? Pride is an internal sensation. If you can't achieve it without someone else's assistance, then something is very wrong.
If you stumble into a 50-foot hole and fall over a sack full of money, there is no pride, no respect, no work put forth to earn either these things or the money. If you dig that 50-foot hole, by hand, with a shovel, you have earned the money, you have earned respect, you should be proud of your accomplishment.
You want the pride, the money, the respect without accomplishing a darn thing. That's the problem. I can't wrap my head around how this could possibly lead to a good outcome.
Gage's stance is similar. You work somewhere, they somehow owe you all the food you want and all the medical care you desire. BS. You are owed the wages you agreed to work for. If that amount is not enough to get you what you want or need, that fault lies with YOU, and YOU ALONE.
I was asked if I thought that was fair. NO. "Fair" would be for somebody who can't earn enough to feed themselves, to starve to death. "Fair" would be for young women to learn that if they choose to spread their legs for someone who can't even feed themselves, much less a wife and children, neither I nor anyone else is going to pay for their stupidity. "Fair" is for any individual to suffer the consequences of their own bad decisions rather than expect somebody else to shoulder that burden.
We have made being stupid and lazy a profitable, easy way to live. In strict economic terms, many are better off not bothering to work and living of the hard work of others. This is a large problem, the belief among many that this is an acceptable way to live your life is a much bigger one.
This crap is going to hit the fan, and very soon. IMO there will be riots and bodies in the streets. This will happen when we finally realize we can't just keep running up debt, and we can't take any more from taxpayers who work for a living. A whole bunch of people who are unable to work for a living, will stop living.
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Just because a person is not intelligent enough to do something more than work fast food does not mean they can't do the job well and with pride.
I find it interesting that we (as a whole, not singling you out specifically) will expect someone to take pride in doing a job about which we say things like "my 12-year-old kid could do it with an hour of training" and which has essentially become a euphemism for being lazy, stupid, and/or generally unsuccessful.
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And this is where ideas on policy cross from reality into utopian dreamland.
What if every person in this country believed in what I'm advocating.
It wouldn't matter because Burger King is owned by a company from Brazil. 
yebat' Putin
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I will be dismissed as an elitist and an enemy of the American Dream. I would say I'm just being realistic and true to human nature.
No, at worst you will be dismissed as an idealist. There is merit in what you say and it would work and it would make for an overall better world... I get that. The problem though is obvious, it would require a total cultural shift which isn't going to happen, so I'm not sure why we are spending all of this time talking about it.
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And this is where ideas on policy cross from reality into utopian dreamland.
What if every person in this country believed in what I'm advocating.
We can't get 535 people in congress to agree and believe in the same thing and you think we can get 350 million to do so? I don't think you could grab 10 random people off the street and get them all to agree and believe unanimously in 1 thing..
It would be great if we could all work for a company who's only motive was to provide a decent living for themselves and their employees. But the world isn't like that, no matter where you go in the world, no matter the style of government, no matter the market system, there is, and always will be have's and have not's, worker bees and CEOs, driven people and sloths.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I once did some extensive work for a man who owned 5 Subway shops. He was Indian or Pakistani, and many of his employees were of similar ethnic origins. I was in and out of all 5 stores many times.
I discussed what I saw with the owner, he also had white, black, and Hispanic employees, but they were mostly older and in management.
You could watch these employees, and the difference was striking. You never saw the Paki young men standing still. You tell the white kid to "go mop over there" , he would mop one corner and then stand there until told to do something else. The Paki kid would mop the entire restaurant, put away the mop and bucket after rinsing them out, and then look for, and FIND, something else useful to do.
There was a 24-year-old young man who lived near me that failed to show up for work for two weeks (After working there for three) and was astonished when he got fired. From Wal-Mart.
When he got another job I followed him around for a couple weeks hollering "SHOW UP!" in his ear. He lasted 8 months before telling his boss to , um, X Off, in front of a factory rep for their major product line.
Any job, any job at all, can be done well and with pride. Or not. The difference between the two must be felt, and it's consequences experienced, by the person doing the work.
At least two of the young Paki guys are now store managers, making a fairly good living. Most of the young white kids are probably stealing food from your table.
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That is why we are so far off. You believe that pride is something that is allowed, whereas I was brought up to take pride in everything I do - it was not "allowed", but rather expected from myself and my parents. I've bused tables, cut lawns, worked on a concrete crew, waterproofed basements (by far the worst job I've ever had), did odd jobs for a professor at his house while attending OU, and now do software design and development for retailers. There is not a single job that I listed there that I did not take pride in. Not a one, regardless of the pay.
Pride is something everyone can take in what they do. You don't need to be overly intelligent to do that. To me, it has always just made sense to do so - more logic than intelligence.
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I've done my best to back up my findings with research and statistics, not feel good ideals or 'here's how it should be in a perfect world.' The first two pages were you Nelson telling everyone how you felt people working 80 hours a week were bums and morons. But these last two posts are striking. Why is it the only difference you can make in the work ethic is the subway workers nationality? But the worst one to me is slut-shaming. I'm sure you'd prefer if we round up all the single mothers and sterilize them!
I respect the hell out of hard work. I go to work for 9 hours, come home and often work some more. When a deadline looms I can be in the office until 2AM. My entire 20s have been devoted to my craft, to become the best I can be at it. I don't WANT people to have handouts. People gaming welfare and SSI sicken me. But not everyone can be a manager. Some folks best lot for long periods of time is to log as many hours as they can. And these folks are the most at risk to be taken advantage of wage-wise. Bringing us back full circle to why min wage is there in the first place....
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Do you suppose you would have been able to take pride in those jobs if people who had "better" jobs than you constantly spoke of people in your positions in derogatory ways?
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I believe culture can change, and I believe the change can be intentional. We don't have to convince everybody; only those in positions of influence, the ones who have the greatest effect on our culture. I don't think it's idealistic to believe it can happen. What it will take is enough people talking about it, which is what we are doing right now. Government can't do it. Public policy can't do it. Only those who participate in shaping our culture can do it.
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Do you suppose you would have been able to take pride in those jobs if people who had "better" jobs than you constantly spoke of people in your positions in derogatory ways?
Taking pride in something has nothing to do with what people say, if it does then you probably lack self confidence or self identity, which is a whole other issue.
A lot of people, both good and bad, hard working and slothful, take crap jobs. Some see it as a means to pay the bills, support their family and get buy until they can move on to something better. Some take it because it is all they can get anymore because their work history and ethic is poor.
Now I'm sure there's some groups in the middle and a mix of both.
But many who complain that their job sucks, also give no effort or have any pride in their work, and in return get the same attitude back from management. I see it all the time here where I work. They want better pay, benefits, hours, jobs but expect to get those items before they put in the effort to prove they deserve those things.
As I said thought, I am sure there are a few who just have a streak of bad luck and keep getting stuck in the same bad cycle, but I'd bet those are fewer than some want to make them out to be.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Do you suppose you would have been able to take pride in those jobs if people who had "better" jobs than you constantly spoke of people in your positions in derogatory ways?
Since when should anyone allow what others think to determine how you feel about yourself or something you do... especially total strangers?
I am not responsible for your happiness, nor the happiness (or lack of) of anyone else on this planet.
You either have pride in doing what you do to the best of your abilities, or you don't value your job. Period.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Do you suppose you would have been able to take pride in those jobs if people who had "better" jobs than you constantly spoke of people in your positions in derogatory ways?
Absolutely, positively 100% yes. It has never even crossed my mind as, far as pride goes, what others think of me. Pride, as many have touched on, has nothing to do with what other people think of you. In fact, if someone cares so much about what others think about them, taking pride in what you do is a really good way to improve that aspect of ones life.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
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Posts: 8,015 |
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"It's wrong for big corporations to make billions of dollars in profits and pay millions of dollars to their CEOs, while us workers barely scrape by on minimum wage," said Latrice Arnold, a 27-year-old mother of two who earns Michigan's minimum wage of $7.40 an hour at a Detroit Wendy's. "They can afford to pay us more and have a responsibility to ensure the workers who keep their businesses booming don't live in poverty."
Ahhh...Socialism...where if my life isn't as good as I want it to be, someone else should be responsible to make it better...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
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Seems to me that we're conflating the notions of being proud of the quality of your work and being proud of the nature of your work.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
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I don't think it's idealistic to believe it can happen.
I believe that to expect corporate executives to volunteer to take less money and be satisfied with less profit so they can pay the guy who mops the floor or flips the burgers more is the very definition of idealistic. I'm not saying idealism is a bad thing, just that your stance is very idealistic.
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What it will take is enough people talking about it, which is what we are doing right now. Government can't do it. Public policy can't do it. Only those who participate in shaping our culture can do it.
Government can't do it.. well they could but it wouldn't be pretty.... but you bring up a good point on changing culture. People have been talking about political corruption and greed and influence in politics for a long time... heck we have a chance every few years to throw out the corrupt and greedy ones and bring in somebody fresh.. and with all of that, we haven't been able to change politics... so I don't hold out a lot of hope that anything is going to facilitate this ground swell of support to change corporate America.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
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heck we have a chance every few years to throw out the corrupt and greedy ones and bring in somebody fresh.. and with all of that, we haven't been able to change politics... so I don't hold out a lot of hope that anything is going to facilitate this ground swell of support to change corporate America.
And that is because everyone is all for making things better as a whole., until they find out it will negatively affect them in some way. And there is a very very small segment of the population, where any and all changes will be all positive.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Quote:
"It's wrong for big corporations to make billions of dollars in profits and pay millions of dollars to their CEOs, while us workers barely scrape by on minimum wage," said Latrice Arnold, a 27-year-old mother of two who earns Michigan's minimum wage of $7.40 an hour at a Detroit Wendy's. "They can afford to pay us more and have a responsibility to ensure the workers who keep their businesses booming don't live in poverty."
Ahhh...Socialism...where if my life isn't as good as I want it to be, someone else should be responsible to make it better...
It's not socialism to say that if there isn't some shared purpose, then our economy is effectively a pyramid scheme.
That's not saying all things have to be equal for everyone, but if there isn't some compromise between the bottom and the top, then it really just boils down to who can put their foot on the next guy's throat. And that's not a successful economic model any more than 'everyone wears a blue jumpsuit and we all make $10 an hour' is.
By the logic above, Henry Ford was a socialist.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Somebody should tell Ms. Latrice Arnold that Wendy's had income last year of $37,000,000, they have 57,000 employees globally, their CEO makes $4.6 million (in 2011)... (all thanks to Wikipedia)
So if the CEO decided to work for free, and the company decided to go non-profit and make ZERO dollars in income... then each employee could get a raise of exactly $729.82 a year... assuming she works the normal 2080 hours a year based on a 40 hour week, she would get a raise of exactly $.35 /hour.....
Ok, let's assume that only 60% of Wendy's employees fall into that low income group and the other is management, corporate execs, buyers, etc... So if you take the same income away from everybody, she could get $1,216 a year or almost $.60/hour...
There is no way... NO WAY ON EARTH that you can run any numbers to justify giving everybody a raise of several dollars an hour without taking the company under... no way.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,218
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Agreed wholeheartedly. No restaurant can survive increasing labor costs by the types of percentages that are being talked about.
It's a low margin business to begin with.
Beyond that, why should any business pay anyone beyond what is needed to obtain the quality of work they require?
If they can get what they need for $7/hour.... why on earth would ANY sane businessperson pay $15?. Without a very sound business reason for doing so, you do NOT do it, or you will NOT remain a successful business.
You wouldn't volunteer to pay 50% extra for the same ingredients in your food just so that the suppliers can do better, so why would you pay your labor that way?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Sadly, too many people are unable to think in realistic terms.....they only think in term's of idealism, or entitlement.
Next will be "full health care coverage for employees and family"
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Fast Food workers plan to strike
Aug 29, want $15 hr
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