|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548 |
And that "fair" is getting everything they want.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
It's not socialism to say that if there isn't some shared purpose, then our economy is effectively a pyramid scheme.
She isn't talking about a "shared purpose." She's talking about more than doubling her pay, she's talking about wanting a BUNCH more compensation for ZERO more effort. She's talking about taking away from the brains of the operation so she can do the same work and get paid twice as much more.
She's looking for a free lunch.
If she really wants more out of her life it's up to her to make it better. If all she can muster is enough ability to flip a burger or clean a fryer then she'll have to take what the market pays, and that's $7.40 per hour.
Her life can be more. It's not up to the company to do that for her. It isn't there responsibility to pay the workers more than double what they are earning. The only responsibility they have is to the share-holders.
One of my co-managers and I are both leaving our company for higher paying jobs. We don't feel it's our companies responsibility to pay us more. They answer to the share-holders. If we don't like what they are paying us, we either learn to like it or change our situation. That's what those striking need to do.
It's harder for some people to change their situation than it is for others but it is their own responsibility.
Like Rodney said...The world needs ditch-diggers, too.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093 |
I don't want to take the side of arguing for a minimum wage increase because, in the long list of things that could benefit unskilled labor, the minimum wage is at the bottom of the list. But in the interest of intellectual openness, the argument regarding the effect of a minimum wage increase on employment is far from a closed case as you and most everyone else in this thread believe. If you are interested in expanding your knowledge on this subject, start with this article published in the American Economic Review:
David Card and Alan B. Krueger, "Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast-Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania," American Economic Review, 84.4 (September 1994): 774–775.
This is the beginning of the issue. Numerous studies were published in response to this original study showing that the original study was flawed. Many more studies were then published demonstrating that Card's and Krueger's study is sound and accurate.
Anyone who claims they know what will happen to employment as a result of a minimum wage increase without having read the relevant studies don't know what they are talking about. And those who dismiss as unreasonable the supporters of a minimum wage increase without having read the relevant studies are hypocrites.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
This is the beginning of the issue. Numerous studies were published in response to this original study showing that the original study was flawed. Many more studies were then published demonstrating that Card's and Krueger's study is sound and accurate.
Anyone who claims they know what will happen to employment as a result of a minimum wage increase without having read the relevant studies don't know what they are talking about. And those who dismiss as unreasonable the supporters of a minimum wage increase without having read the relevant studies are hypocrites.
If you have time to go read a dozen studies on every issue before you comment, good for you. Most of us do not. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.
Quote:
the argument regarding the effect of a minimum wage increase on employment is far from a closed case as you and most everyone else in this thread believe.
For the record, I never said it was a closed case. I said what this one woman at Wendy's was asking for was unsustainable based on their financials.
Also for the record, my opinion of the minimum wage is very similar to my opinion on social security... if you get to retirement relying on social security as your primary source of income, then you have put your fate in somebody elses hands and you will live with what you get...... Similarly if you get into your early 20s and are not developing skills that demand higher pay than the minimum that the government has set then you have also put your fate in somebody elses hands and you will have to live with what you get.
So as others have pointed out, some eloquently and some not so eloquently, the best way to make sure this is not an issue for you, is to begin developing a marketable skill set at an early age, whether that is through education, vocational education, OJT, trade union apprenticeship, whatever..
I will agree that it's not all about working "hard", you also have to be on a track that gets you somewhere.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548 |
We wonder why the middle class is disappearing ...... Well, first we cut interest rates to nothing so that saving money has little impact on a person's ability to enjoy a quality standard of living when they retire. Not everyone is built to withstand the ups and downs of the market, and when savings pay less than 1%, and even long tern CDs pay less than 2%, it eliminates the ability of the middle level wage earner to safe for the future and build any level of wealth long term. Second, the government printing money left and right devalues those savings even further. $1 out of 100 printed to the value of an asset is worth $1. $1 printed out of nothing just to try and buy back debts is just using imaginary money to pay off debt. It's like buying a game of Monopoly and sending the money from that game to the bank to pay off a loan.  Third ,... these minimum wage increases drive price increases in many cases that are not reflected in wage increases for mid level wage earners within a company. The minimum wage goes up, and may almost double compared to a decade ago ..... yet in many cases middle level wage earners in companies are not only not earning more, in many cases they have had to take wage cuts in order to keep their jobs. Not only does the gap between rich and middle class grow ..... but the gap between lower income and middle class has shrunk in many cases. The government, both Republican and Democrat administrations, have had a huge hand in creating this mess. Neither seems inclined to do anything to fix it though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
 Kind of answering my own previous question.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
While I can guess what that chart represents, a little more info would be beneficial.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
chart is inflation adjusted vs. real Both reagan and clinton had notoriously anti-worker administrations. To talk bad about them though is crucifying each political parties messiah
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
My question previously was roughly: "How long has it been since minimum wage was expected to be a 'liveable' wage." If $10 / hour today isn't considered a liveable wage, then the answer is kind of 'never.'
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
depends on the definition of "livable"
I know a few folks living in that salary range. They get assistance, smoke, have lots of cable channels, Xbox live etc etc etc
Cut out that hundred a month cell phone bill, that hundred a month cable bill, hundred a month cigarette habit, money goes a lot further...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
This is always an issue for me in discussing the topic of wages. I host a basketball night ministry at our church for at-risk youth every Sunday night. We play hoops for a couple hours, have a Bible devotion, etc... These kids come from the projects, I drove a couple home the other night because it was raining and there were about 10 parking spaces in their development loaded with crap from people who had been evicted. Most of them don't speak of "mom and dad" they speak of aunt so-and-so or my grandma, etc... Most of them are genuinely nice kids and I hope we can have a positive impact on them... Most of them have started coming to youth group for a couple hours before basketball... they have holes in their shoes, shorts with no elastic in them, and worn backpacks... but almost every one of them has an iphone.... go figure.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Quote:
My question previously was roughly: "How long has it been since minimum wage was expected to be a 'liveable' wage." If $10 / hour today isn't considered a liveable wage, then the answer is kind of 'never.'
I'm not an economist but I've been settling on that figure too... I'd even go a bit lower (9 and change). This is where the strikers aren't helping their cause, more than doubling your wage is a pipe dream and you're not being realistic. Min Wage was definitely livable in 1980 based on average costs of rent/gas/car that's for sure.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093 |
Quote:
If you have time to go read a dozen studies on every issue before you comment, good for you. Most of us do not. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.
That comment wasn't intended for you. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I also wasn't saying that commenting on something without having read X number of studies makes a person a hypocrite. It doesn't. I was saying that when a person claims that the opposing side is unreasonable without having read the best arguments that side has to offer, that's what makes a person a hypocrite. You haven't done this, but others in this thread have.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
No problem. We're good. 
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,145
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,145 |
J/c
First, why is a guy who's been working at those restaurants for so long making so little? After all that time I would expect he'd show some aptitude for managerial positions. If not then it's certainly on him that he's only making what he is.
Second, it's hard enough to get me into McDonalds to pay $6.?? for a Big Mac meal at what they're making now it will be impossible to get me in there at what they want.
You make what you make because you are responsible for flipping a burger. The CEO makes what he makes because he's responsible for you, and thousands more like you, the people that manage you, the people that supply you with the burgers you flip and the fries you fry.
You earn an entry level wage because you have an entry level job.
You want more, be worth more.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
My question previously was roughly: "How long has it been since minimum wage was expected to be a 'liveable' wage." If $10 / hour today isn't considered a liveable wage, then the answer is kind of 'never.'
Just like Arps and DC said ... This country has a weird idea of what "liveable" is. A few decades ago, immigrants would come here and work for a couple cents an hour, yet they could get by with a survivable life. Today, people can't "survive" with $7.50 an hour, because they can't get a smartphone, a flat screen or the Madden game that came out this year. 
I read an article on Cracked or something somewhere, that made a pretty good point ... nobody will ever have "enough". If you were to ask everyone in this country to come up with a list of things that "everyone" should have for basic living ... you might get a list similar to: "A place to live, a cell-phone, an internet connection, a tv, a car" ... etc. But if you were to go just across the border to Mexico, or somewhere even more impoverished like Nigeria, you'd get a vastly different answer. Maybe something like, "A clean water source, a roof over your head, etc" ... the point being is that nobody will ever have enough. If you were to give everyone in this country $15 an hour, and practically guarantee them a cell-phone, a car, a tv, etc ... then the line would just be moved that much further, and then suddenly people would be living in "poverty" again because they didn't have a smart phone, or an xbox, etc ... things that other people had, but they didn't.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548 |
Quote:
You want more, be worth more.
Well said. This is what many people miss these days. People want more for basic labor. They want more for entry level type, unskilled work. People expect their education to be enough to get them a great job, but employers have their pick of people with an education. Employers now want people who have shown leadership and initiative in college, such as through organizations, or an internship, etc. Once people get a job, people expect to get raises and promotions by virtue of time served. In most businesses. Initiative and productivity beat time served hands down.In fact, "the bare minimum" might be just enough to cost someone their job ........ because the average person might beat that by a mile.
If you are in a position that is limited in wage potential, then get into a new position. Every position is limited in wage potential. Moving to the next position up is the best way to earn more. Being more valuable to the company is the way to make more money. Hell ..... if you make yourself more valuable to your company, you're bound to learn skills that will make you more valuable to other employers as well. If you can't move up with your current employer, then you still may be able to move to a better position with another similar company.
If you want more, be worth more. This is so true.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Yea, I do think alot of people have a weird idea of livable. So does McDonalds (reposting for this page): http://consumerist.com/2013/07/19/mcdona...udget-add-heat/Cable/Phone for $100/mo is on there but no groceries, gas, or car repair budget? Maybe it's all thrown into the $100 'Other' line item but that's a pretty optimistic outlook! Either way on this budget they give you funds to own the car but no gas so I guess make sure your two jobs are within walking distance
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548 |
Who makes $2000/month and has a "daily spending money" goal of $25/day?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
You don't need groceries, they accounted for $25 daily spending, that should cover 3 McDonalds meals and still have enough for 2 gallons of gas.  More if you get an employee discount or buy from the discount menu.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,127
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,127 |
Employment is a supply and demand thing. If you are working a job that 90% of the country can do, you are not going to get paid much.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548 |
Quote:
Employment is a supply and demand thing. If you are working a job that 90% of the country can do, you are not going to get paid much.
True, and not.
Back in the Clinton days, when the dot com economy was driving us to unforseen heights of economic glory ..... it became very hard for employers to find people to work fast food, low end retail, and so on, Employers had to pay much more than minimum wage...... and ridiculously more in some markets. Minimum was was, IIRC, $3.95 - $4.25 in those days, yet they were paying $10 and up in New York. In Youngstown they were paying people $6 and up .... and we have a huge base of people to fill those jobs. So, yes, supply definitely drives the necessity for employers to pay more even for the simplest of jobs. However, in those days, even though the jobs required only rudimentary skills in many cases, pay still increased because of the lack of supply of available workers.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Quote:
You don't need groceries, they accounted for $25 daily spending, that should cover 3 McDonalds meals and still have enough for 2 gallons of gas. More if you get an employee discount or buy from the discount menu.
Hope you got some awesome health care if your diet is entirely McDonalds 
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
You don't need groceries, they accounted for $25 daily spending, that should cover 3 McDonalds meals and still have enough for 2 gallons of gas. More if you get an employee discount or buy from the discount menu.
Hope you got some awesome health care if your diet is entirely McDonalds
They allotted $20, that's enough right? 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,185
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,185 |
Quote:
Who makes $2000/month and has a "daily spending money" goal of $25/day?
$25/day?! I have a daily budget of $2.83.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
my wife give me no allowance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,185
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,185 |
Quote:
my wife give me no allowance.
Don't wait for an allowance to be given to you, wear those pants and TAKE that allowance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,548 |
Quote:
Quote:
Who makes $2000/month and has a "daily spending money" goal of $25/day?
$25/day?! I have a daily budget of $2.83.
I usually give myself a monthly budget of around $50 "spending money". (or money to waste) Sometimes it's less than that.
Maybe this person is hitting the strip clubs and needs a few lap dances or something? 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,185
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,185 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Who makes $2000/month and has a "daily spending money" goal of $25/day?
$25/day?! I have a daily budget of $2.83.
I usually give myself a monthly budget of around $50 "spending money". (or money to waste) Sometimes it's less than that.
Maybe this person is hitting the strip clubs and needs a few lap dances or something?
HAHAHA!!! Very good point.
That's what my wife and I do, set monthly budgets of $85 for each of ourselves. Trying to save for a house, can't go over that amount.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Who makes $2000/month and has a "daily spending money" goal of $25/day?
$25/day?! I have a daily budget of $2.83.
I usually give myself a monthly budget of around $50 "spending money". (or money to waste) Sometimes it's less than that.
Maybe this person is hitting the strip clubs and needs a few lap dances or something?
HAHAHA!!! Very good point.
That's what my wife and I do
hey, to each their own
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,185
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,185 |
^^^HAHAHAHA!!!
Well, today is D-Day for these employees. Let's see how brave and committed they are to their cause.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
^^^HAHAHAHA!!!
Well, today is D-Day for these employees. Let's see how brave and committed they are to their cause.
I might have to go to McDonalds for lunch today.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,124
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,124 |
j/c
Just heard something interesting on the radio yesterday:
As we remembered the 1963 march on Washington yesterday, one of the talking points brought up during the speeches was setting the minimum wage at $2.00/hr.
Fast-forward to 2013, adjust for inflation... and that minimum wage would now be...
...wait for it...
$15.85.
That little factoid made me stop in my tracks.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,090
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,090 |
Quote:
j/c
Just heard something interesting on the radio yesterday:
As we remembered the 1963 march on Washington yesterday, one of the talking points brought up during the speeches was setting the minimum wage at $2.00/hr.
Fast-forward to 2013, adjust for inflation... and that minimum wage would now be...
...wait for it...
$15.85.
That little factoid made me stop in my tracks.
wow. I was not aware of that at all
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
It surprises me how little money you guys spend. $2.83 a day? $85 a month spending money? My bar tab tonight will probably be close to your monthy spending
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Also, has anyone stopped to think that these guys are wanting what is essentially starting salary for a school teacher?
Think about that for a minute.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
j/c
Just heard something interesting on the radio yesterday:
As we remembered the 1963 march on Washington yesterday, one of the talking points brought up during the speeches was setting the minimum wage at $2.00/hr.
Fast-forward to 2013, adjust for inflation... and that minimum wage would now be...
...wait for it...
$15.85.
That little factoid made me stop in my tracks.
Did the factoid also tell you that they didn't get it? The minimum wage in 1968 (5 years later) was $1.60, which would be the equivalent to $10.64/hour now and that is the best the minimum wage has ever been in terms of buying power. (Thanks Wiki)
So they want a wage that is 50% higher than the highest minimum wage ever.
I get that in NY and other areas it should be raised, congress sets a national wage but each state has the right to set its own minimum wage... and counties and cities have the right to set their own higher than the state. So if the folks in NYC want a higher minimum wage, I would recommend they hammer on the city, not the federal government.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,124
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,124 |
matter of fact, they didn't continue to where you did.
I recall that my first job (stock clerk in a Mom&Pop grocery) wage was 1.60 in 1972.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
You can just call me Paul Harvey.  The more I think about it, the federal minimum wage should be pretty darn low, then states and cities can adjust it up accordingly based on their own circumstances and whatever they feel is the best for their own little economy...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Fast Food workers plan to strike
Aug 29, want $15 hr
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
