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I see Russell as a complete downgrade to the QBs mainly due to the fact that he brings no knowedge with him.
If I may interject,,,
Soup, I actually see where you are going with this,,
If I read you correctly, you are saying that at least in the BEGINNING, Russell is actually no upgrade because of a lack of experience and knowledge of the NFL game,,, not the game in general! Do I have that right?
If so, I agree, there is a learning curve associated. But the upshot of this is that in the end, if Russell is what he's been purported to be,, if indeed he is the next stud QB, then in the long run, it's a major upgrade,,,
Just that today,, from day one, he's not any upgrade....
Am I reading you correctly here Soup?
You are reading me correctly. (though I honestly think Russell will suck) But n your scenerio where "if he turns out to be the stud QB," you are reading me dead on. We have more pressing needs currently.
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You are reading me correctly. (though I honestly think Russell will suck) But n your scenerio where "if he turns out to be the stud QB," you are reading me dead on. We have more pressing needs currently.
I finally figure out how to read someone correctly and it isn't my wife,,,, no wonder I'm on my third marriage 
Anyway, I'm not familiar enough with Russell over his entire college career to make a valid determination if he's gonna be a stud or dud.. I just don't know enough about him to say.
But I'm going to assume for the sake of all dicussions that he's gonna be good.. I still think the thing to do is fix the trenches... both sides of the of the line need help.,
I've yet to see a poor line and an outstanding QB take a team very far.. I have however seen a terrific line and an average QB win a superbowl (with the help of a stingy D of course)
So my brain is saying,, fix the lines...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You are reading me correctly. (though I honestly think Russell will suck) But n your scenerio where "if he turns out to be the stud QB," you are reading me dead on. We have more pressing needs currently.
I finally figure out how to read someone correctly and it isn't my wife,,,, no wonder I'm on my third marriage
Anyway, I'm not familiar enough with Russell over his entire college career to make a valid determination if he's gonna be a stud or dud.. I just don't know enough about him to say.
But I'm going to assume for the sake of all dicussions that he's gonna be good.. I still think the thing to do is fix the trenches... both sides of the of the line need help.,
I've yet to see a poor line and an outstanding QB take a team very far.. I have however seen a terrific line and an average QB win a superbowl (with the help of a stingy D of course)
So my brain is saying,, fix the lines...
I figured out why you are on your 3rd marriage
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So my brain is saying,, fix the lines...
The womaen are intimidated by your intelligence! Finally - someone else who gets what it takes to build a TEAM. 
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what you two are saying is it'd be better to have Frye, Anderson and Russell - 3 really young guys without much experience in anything let alone film breakdown - than to have Frye, Anderson and Dorsey. One of which is noted for his smarts.
No, quite simply what I'm saying is that it's far better to have Russell than Dorsey, who's probably going to be a free agent when the draft is over.
However smart he may be, he's not going to know more than the QB coach when it comes to breaking down film. Dorsey has very little experience in this league and is still a young player. He only brings value to the table with his "smarts" if he can......you know.......actually play QB in this league. Which he can't. He's a stiff.
You're badly overvaluing Dorsey in this instance. His value to this team is nothing. Dorsey was a throw-in to give us a 3rd QB. Nothing more. He'll be on someone elses roster or in Canada when the season starts.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Because he keeps getting married? 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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what you two are saying is it'd be better to have Frye, Anderson and Russell - 3 really young guys without much experience in anything let alone film breakdown - than to have Frye, Anderson and Dorsey. One of which is noted for his smarts.
No, quite simply what I'm saying is that it's far better to have Russell than Dorsey, who's probably going to be a free agent when the draft is over.
However smart he may be, he's not going to know more than the QB coach when it comes to breaking down film. Dorsey has very little experience in this league and is still a young player. He only brings value to the table with his "smarts" if he can......you know.......actually play QB in this league. Which he can't. He's a stiff.
You're badly overvaluing Dorsey in this instance. His value to this team is nothing. Dorsey was a throw-in to give us a 3rd QB. Nothing more. He'll be on someone elses roster or in Canada when the season starts.
So when the QB coach is working with Anderson it's bad to have Dorsey teach Frye more about film breakdown? That's odd. And the reason you state for Dorsey being a 3rd string QB - is precisely why all 3rd string QBs are 3rd string QBs.
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So when the QB coach is working with Anderson it's bad to have Dorsey teach Frye more about film breakdown?
It doesn't work that way. At all.
Gotta run. Golf calls *L*
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I figured out why you are on your 3rd marriage
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So my brain is saying,, fix the lines...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The womaen are intimidated by your intelligence! Finally - someone else who gets what it takes to build a TEAM.
You know, I hadn't thought of that, but it could actually be the reason..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Russel is the most overrated player in the draft. He DID come out of nowhere based on a few games. The questions that surround him are very critical ones.
But let's ignore the obvious on that folks..........
I don't ignore anything..fact is I debating Soup that Russell is more talented than our backups..
In fact in his arguement Vince Young is not better than Dorsey..sorry not happening here..
Dorsey was a afterthought piece thrown in the Dilfer trade..
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So when the QB coach is working with Anderson it's bad to have Dorsey teach Frye more about film breakdown?
It doesn't work that way. At all.
Gotta run. Golf calls *L*
You SUCK! It's 34 degrees here. Hit one in the woods for me (because that's where mine would end up)
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Because he keeps getting married?
What ever happened to the Male of the species (defined as the ones with the dangleling doohickeys) sticking together here bud
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So when the QB coach is working with Anderson it's bad to have Dorsey teach Frye more about film breakdown? That's odd.
What is it that Dorsey is teaching Frye?
From what I heard Frye studies hard by himself..
Thats probably all that Dorsey can do is study film , his talents on the field doesn't measure up..
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So when the QB coach is working with Anderson it's bad to have Dorsey teach Frye more about film breakdown? That's odd.
What is it that Dorsey is teaching Frye?
From what I heard Frye studies hard by himself..
Thats probably all that Dorsey can do is study film , his talents on the field doesn't measure up..
I know Frye studies hard by himself - but if a "vet" with good film skills is with him and showing him a couple things he missed - how is that harmful?
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Did all that fil study make him improve dramatically during the season?
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look at my sig, you tell me. By the way, w/Frye starting under Davidson - we were 3-4.
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You keep thinking that Frye isn't a problem unto himself o.k?
I know otherwise.
All the rankings and percentages in the world don't make up for what his production is series by series..and he flames out in a lot of series..
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You keep thinking that Frye isn't a problem unto himself o.k?
I know otherwise.
All the rankings and percentages in the world don't make up for what his production is series by series..and he flames out in a lot of series..
Which series are that? The ones where his line makes him run for his life or the ones where his run game does nothing ro the ones where a WR lets the ball go off his hands to the opposing teams?
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All you need to do is watch a game..he isn't hammered on EVERY FREAKING PLAY.. He self destructs in alot of series..whether he's off on a timing route or he throws into the dirt or he throws into coverage or he doesn't lookoff his man..or he rolls into a sack , those are things HE DOES with anyout other factors coming into play. And it's getting tired repeating those very things to you and others. 
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All you need to do is watch a game..he isn't hammered on EVERY FREAKING PLAY..
He self destructs in alot of series..whether he's off on a timing route or he throws into the dirt or he throws into coverage or he doesn't lookoff his man..or he rolls into a sack , those are things HE DOES with anyout other factors coming into play.
And it's getting tired repeating those very things to you and others.
Your going to have to keep repeating them. In the KC game a stat came up - Frye, at the time, was the most HIT QB in the NFL.
You say he ended series missing guys and hitting the dirt. That implies 3rd down misses. Bare in mind he was a FIRST YEAR starter.
Frye was tied for 15th in the entire NFL on % of passes completed on 3rd down for a first down. 40%. Notables BELOW Frye are:
Marc Bulger
Steve McNair
Donavan McNabb
Frye was at 40%
Brett Favre at 40.2%
Tom Brady at 40.4%
Just to put that in perspective. Take that into account with the following:
Same stat - but on 3rd and short -- Frye was tied for 2nd in the NFL at 75%
Same stat - but on 3rd and medium --Frye was 16th in the NFL at 47.1% (Palmer 46.6%, Brady 46.5%)
Same stat on 3rd and long - doesn't register in the NFL - but in the AFC he was 12th at 23.4% - -Carson Palmer was 15th at 22.7%
Why does he drop so drastically on 3rd and long? Because people rush 4 and go right through the OL we have. We can't stop teams from getting to the QB when it's an obvious passing down. These stats reveal a lot - there's some neat stats on this page - not enough for the D though.
Pass yds lost on penalties - Frye was 7th in the NFL (mind you he missed 3.5 games with injury).
So instead of telling others to watch the games - maybe you should start watching them. Point is, it's hard to make good decisions when you are the most hit QB in the NFL. Your judgement of Frye - you would have booted Aikman, Elway and BRadshaw from the NFL. Frye's a first year starter - end of story. the OL sucks, the WR are documented to run a lot of wrong routes.
http://stats.nypost.com/fb/index.asp
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Once again you try to use the stats to slant your argument..
Doesn't work with me..
In the KC game a stat came up - Frye, at the time, was the most HIT QB in the NFL.
How many sacks did he create himself vs actually being sacked ?
I see you didn't include 1st and ten or second and anything..
Same stat - but on 3rd and short -- Frye was tied for 2nd in the NFL at 75%
75%..OH AND showing that would tend to make one think we were pretty consistant on sustaining drives and putting up points eh?
Wonder what happened on most of those drives...got any stats for that?
So instead of telling others to watch the games - maybe you should start watching them
Actually I do thats why your stats mean jack squat because they don't show the whole picture..
For instance if Frye converts one third down and then throws a pic in the next series or takes a sack how in the world can your stats SHOW THAT?
It can't..one has to be watching the games to know the series of events..
U actually need s a play by play series to KNOW what happens next..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 04/09/07 02:44 PM.
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Quote:
Once again you try to use the stats to slant your argument..
Doesn't work with me..
In the KC game a stat came up - Frye, at the time, was the most HIT QB in the NFL.
How many sacks did he create himself vs actually being sacked ?
I see you didn't include 1st and ten or second and anything..
Same stat - but on 3rd and short -- Frye was tied for 2nd in the NFL at 75%
75%..OH AND showing that would tend to make one think we were pretty consistant on sustaining drives and putting up points eh?
Wonder what happened on most of those drives...got any stats for that?
So instead of telling others to watch the games - maybe you should start watching them
Actually I do thats why your stats mean jack squat because they don't show the whole picture..U try to make them produce a total picture but they don't.
I prefaced my post stating you implied he ended drives on 3rd down - it proved you wrong so you don't like them and give them no merritt. Here's a few more for you.
% of passes complete on 1st and 10 (just like you asked for)
Frye - 12th in the NFL 64.7%
Brees - 13th
Brady - 14th
Palmer - 15th
OOPS! You shouldn't have asked for that stat.
How about YAC for a QB?
Frye - 20th in the NFL
How about the FACT that he was 5th in the NFL in comp %?
Rating with 2 WR set (will the Browns run or pass?) 7th in the NFL - 89.9
Rating in 3 WR set - (chances are they will pass) 18th in the NFL 74.2
Rating in 4 WR set - (let's t-off kids, their passing) 13th in the NFL - 48.9 - odd when people drop 7, rush 4 and get pressure how much harder it is to play QB isn't it?
Frye was 15th in the AFC for sacks per pass attempt - OOPS! That's a bad line, I guarantee you he wasn't responsable for every sack like you want to believe.
BTW - you do realize that HITS are different than sacks right?
Last edited by Soup; 04/09/07 02:55 PM.
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You just want to be indulged don't U? % of passes complete on 1st and 10 (just like you asked for)
Frye - 12th in the NFL 64.7%
Brees - 13th
Brady - 14th
Palmer - 15th
Hmmm all QBs who are ranked higher than Frye and who offenses are better than ours.. "NO STATS FOR YOU!!" How about YAC for a QB?
Frye - 20th in the NFL
Still bottom half.. How about the FACT that he was 5th in the NFL in comp %?
Ans still ranked 26th out of 32 QB's Frye was 15th in the AFC for sacks per pass attempt - OOPS! That's a bad line, I guarantee you he wasn't responsable for every sack like you want to believe.
BTW - you do realize that HITS are different than sacks right? And your ability to quote or interpet what I say is 13%..last in the league 
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Quote:
Once again you try to use the stats to slant your argument..
Doesn't work with me..
Ahh, some on here use stats to slant thier argument,,, others ignore them when they disprove thiers... Which one are you again?
Your chain has officially been yanked
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Sooo I guess you're SWAYED by those stats to make you think Frye is better than he is? But if you saw the games , now you think of him in a different light? Those stats don't change what I saw ....like I said they don't show when he threw a bad pass, when he got pick'd off..when he got sacked..when he misread a coverage..oh wait maybe for U guys it does show that.. Why even bother to watch the games? Use the stats to show the end result..
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Sooo I guess you're SWAYED by those stats to make you think Frye is better than he is?
Where in gods name did that come from,,,, Geez Attack...what the heck are you thinking man,,
For cryin out loud, go back and read my comment,,,wait, better yet, I'll put it in here for you to review AGAIN!
Your comment was:
Once again you try to use the stats to slant your argument..
Doesn't work with me..
and my response was:
Quote:
Ahh, some on here use stats to slant thier argument,,, others ignore them when they disprove thiers... Which one are you again?
Take it at face value and quit looking at it as a personal attack on you... I made an observation,,,,
And here's the really funny thing....I'm absolutely correct!
Let's face it, if facts support someones opinion, they spout them out all over the place..
And if the facts don't support thier opinoin, they suddenly become worthless and don't mean anything..
So don't give me a ration of garbage over that.. it's the truth,,, and that's all I ever stated...
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Those stats don't change what I saw
Of course not, they don't support your theory!
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Why even bother to watch the games?
Use the stats to show the end result..
Testy little bugger aren't you!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I know Soup believes in stats regardless of the outcome  Take it at face value and quit looking at it as a personal attack on you... I made an observation,,,, U sure get emotional when I challenge you..don't care of it was a observation..his stats DON'T SHOW the total picture..and is has nothing to do with a agenda..they just don't show the whole picture. And it's no theory..is it a theory Frye is ranked 26th in the league? That the Browns only won 4 games with Frye at the helm? Is it a theory they're looking at other QB's?
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I know Soup believes in stats regardless of the outcome
Take it at face value and quit looking at it as a personal attack on you... I made an observation,,,,
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U sure get emotional when I challenge you..don't care of it was a observation..his stats DON'T SHOW the total picture..and is has nothing to do with a agenda..they just don't show the whole picture.
And it's no theory..is it a theory Frye is ranked 26th in the league?
Hmm, stats don't mean a thing - except when they back you up. This also proves my point that you didn't watch the games. I gave you 11 ints that weren't a direct result of Frye - I removed only 5 of those 11 and he became 17th in the NFL. Your use of that stat of 26th in the NFL proves you don't watch the game and you only use stats to back up your argument. You believe QB play is completely independent of that of a WR, OL and RB. IF you didn't - you'd pay attention to the stats I showed (which was way more than one).
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That the Browns only won 4 games with Frye at the helm?
3-4 under Davidson. The first OC was fired - the 4th loss - Frye was INJURED.
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Is it a theory they're looking at other QB's?
No, the theory is that we are definitely going after another QB. You claim to watch/be a student of the game - yet you just blamed the QB for us being 4-12. That's amazing to me. A bum OC who purposefully handcuffed his players for 7 games, a bad ol-ine, 14 guys on IR (8 that were starters), no run game - and this is all Frye's fault? Next time you watch the game - remember there are 11 guys on O and then remember it's a team sport and it's not Fryes fault that out of 16 AFC teams - Droughns was 19th in YPC on 1st down, how hard is that for a QB to deal with?
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Me,,, emotional,,, man that's the pot calling the kettle black,,,I'm getting out of this conversation,, it's meaningless, going nowhere, I'm not going to convince you of anything and the same is true in reverse,,,,, Enjoy the day!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Frye was tied for 15th in the entire NFL on % of passes completed on 3rd down for a first down.
Not that this stat isn't worthwhile...but as a TEAM...the Browns were also 27th in the NFL for 3rd down conversions.
Just for fun I checked how many conversions this actually was:
Frye : 28
Favre: 39
Brady:44
Another fun fact I ran across was that we were 30th in our number of offensive plays and 31st in YPG!
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Quote:
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Frye was tied for 15th in the entire NFL on % of passes completed on 3rd down for a first down.
Not that this stat isn't worthwhile...but as a TEAM...the Browns were also 27th in the NFL for 3rd down conversions.
Just for fun I checked how many conversions this actually was:
Frye : 28
Favre: 39
Brady:44
Another fun fact I ran across was that we were 30th in our number of offensive plays and 31st in YPG!
When your 3rd down conversions for 7 games involve FB options and FB sweeps - your QB isn't going to account for too many.Q
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When your 3rd down conversions for 7 games involve FB options and FB sweeps - your QB isn't going to account for too many.Q
Oh now you're just being silly. You KNOW that on 3rd and 10 you have to run a sweep or screen to your full back. This is Cleveland :P
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When your 3rd down conversions for 7 games involve FB options and FB sweeps - your QB isn't going to account for too many.Q
Oh now you're just being silly. You KNOW that on 3rd and 10 you have to run a sweep or screen to your full back. This is Cleveland :P
My favorites were always the screen to the fat slow white TE.
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YOur quoting me but I don't remember writing that anywhere
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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That was me who said it (it waa a stat - I think people see my name when they see stats anyway so don't worry about it
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Ahh, Ok,,, thanks
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
Quote:
Dorsey was a afterthought piece thrown in the Dilfer trade..
Afterthought in the Dilfer trade? Really? Who else did we get?
Your hero.....Savage.....traded Dilfer for Dorsey and a 7th. Dorsey was no afterthought. He was the main guy the Browns received. Another brilliant Dopie move.
Save the excuses. Excuses are for losers! Even more than stats are for losers.
Gotta love the genius of it...............Trade a 4th rd. pick for Dilfer. The next year you trade Dilfer for Dorsey and a 7th. True genius.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,069
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,069 |
Quote:
YOur quoting me but I don't remember writing that anywhere
That was my fault, sorry about that. I just clicked reply and then pasted in the quoted part. I'll do better next time! 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,554
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,554 |
I agree. On the outside it looks like a dumb move.
What I do like about Savage is he isn't afraid to dump a bad move rather than try to make it work like most do.
The only thing worse than making with a bad choice is sticking with one.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
That sounds nice, but sorry Peen...........Dorsey is not better than Dilfer.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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