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The presumption is that because we had higher draft position and more picks in that current draft that if we matched the Redskins offer the Rams would have taken our offer.
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We held a superior position in the draft. Matching, pick for pick what the Redskins did, ours would have been a superior offer.
Reports were that Holmgren held out that 2nd rounder until it was too late. He thought he held a winning hand, until the Skins asked for everyone's best offer, and he chose to stand. When he realized that he lost, he tried to up the ante, but the Skins had already won. In essence, he tried to get them to go back on a trade they had already (at that point) agreed to, and they wouldn't do it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Ok...I get it now. Thanks...really.
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Will we ever know what we truly offered? Or what we followed up with?
I think the Redskins gave up waaaay too much for a one-year wonder...and we would have given up "more" had we "matched" their offer.
I think there has not been a better self-marketed player since Bosworth.
RG3 is better than Bosworth...but I think he will be / is a bust nonetheless...at least when taking into consideration what was given up to get him.
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We'll have to wait and see how it all turns out.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
What would we have given up?
1:Trent
1: Weeden
2: Schwartz
1: Mingo
Of the 3, only Mingo looks like a real keeper at this point. We did get a 1st for Trent, and that could swing the proposed trade back in our direction, but who knows? It's really going to depend on how we do finding our QB in next year's draft. Otherwise, I think that history might well show that we should have made the trade, giving the Rams what they wanted.
One thing is for certain ..... if we weren't going to meet the Rams price, then we should have got out well before the price got as high as it did ... because now that price is set for a "trade up for a QB scenario". If RG3 had only cost the Skins a pair of 1sts ..... or even a 1st and a 2nd .... that might be the price going forward. However we ran the price up and got out, and Holmgren, Heckert, and Co may have double screwed us.
I don't have a problem with Schwartz,, he's young, I have a little faith that he'll improve.. Maybe not. Mingo is the key. You can't down play that.
Granted, Weeden and TRich are looking like busts at this point but I think anyone can look at the TRich pick and say, damn, he should have been very successful., Proving that any pick can go bad..
It's a crap shoot at best. I'm sticking to what I told you back during that draft,, I would have been very happy with RGIII if we could have just gotten him with our pick, but to trade away a bunch of picks for a kid that will probably not make it in the league (my opinion that is looking like it will prove true) is just nuts..
Another thing, had we drafted RGIII, we'd not have drafted TRich or Weeden. we'd have lost those pics in a trade.. The key is, we'd have lost Mingo..
This is the best trade that didn't happen ever.......
Last edited by Damanshot; 11/01/13 07:43 AM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
One thing is for certain ..... if we weren't going to meet the Rams price, then we should have got out well before the price got as high as it did ... because now that price is set for a "trade up for a QB scenario". If RG3 had only cost the Skins a pair of 1sts ..... or even a 1st and a 2nd .... that might be the price going forward. However we ran the price up and got out, and Holmgren, Heckert, and Co may have double screwed us.
Not so sure we ran the price up resulting in that regime screwing us going forward. IIRC we didn't "run the price up" as we didn't get a second chance to do that.
The price got as high as it did with each team's first offer. Wasn't that trade one of: Give us your best offer first because there's only going to be one bid? Then the Skins offer was better than ours?
I could see your point if there were a bidding war and we kept escalating it but that didn't happen that I remember.
#gmstrong
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I bet that there was lots of build-up to that level. I would put money on the fact that there was tons of back and forth with the Rams growing more and more shocked and stunned as the offers rose higher and higher.
Think about that ..... they traded the 3rd pick in the draft for 3 first round picks, and a second. Wow!
We paid a premium to trade up a year too late to get Trent ....... but luckily we didn't have to pay the same premium. Hopefully we won't have to pay some comparably ridiculous price if there is a guy available that we like. (with the key being a guy actually being available)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The mission statement:
"We will have a CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL QB."
Simplistic but after having 20 different quarterbacks since 1999 the writing on the wall could not be any more clear.
All the other positions can be dealt with in some form or fashion. The Browns have got to figure how to get their guy in this coming draft.
Bridgewater and Mariota are the two top guys but with the other teams in the market there is no guarantee that either guy ends up with the Browns.
The Browns will be aggressive they have made that clear with the TR trade and the stock pile of later picks from last year. If a team that does not have a qb need happens to land first or second in the draft order the Browns could offer 2 first rounders, a second, 2 thirds, and 2 fourths. That's seven picks for a top two guy. That is a steep price but over time it can be overcome "IF" you got a guy like Andrew Luck or close to his talents.
Bridgewater and Mariota are both excellent prospects but fall short of Luck.
I would still label both as franchise quarterbacks. If the Browns came away with one of these two guys along with signing a few key free agents this off season would be a success. The drafts following 2014 would then be all about building a supporting roster.
Hoyer could start next year but he can not be viewed as a solution to the position. To much risk to put into one guy who as yet to prove he can do the job. If neither Bridgewater or Mariota can be had then plan "B" has to happen. That would mean identify another guy that you believe in knowing you have Hoyer.
There are a number of guys outside the top two that could be good. They just have to pick the right one. We can all speculate about who we like or who they like. There very well could be a Russell Wilson or Drew Brees. As they say " hard to measure what is inside a guy".
This coming draft will define the Browns for the next five years. They will either get it right or very wrong. I believe they know it and they know the fans know it.
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J/C
More speculation on my part. What do you guys think of Zach Mettenberger, LSU?
What I see is a big strong QB. Good poise in the pocket, eyes down field even with pressure from a pass rush. Good touch on shorter passes. Can make the vertical throws. As is becoming the norm, most snaps out of the shotgun but will get under center and execute play action. Not very athletic, sub par mobility won't extend many plays with his feet.
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Your spot on about Mettenberger. Love his arm. The first time I watched him I thought Ben Rothlisberger. He is an interesting prospect. Prototype pocket guy.
Ben was more athletic coming out of college. He was damn good short stop which is odd for a guy his size.
Mettenberger is a guy who has to be checked out thoroughly. You have to try to get inside a guys head and find out what makes him tick. Not easy because as the draft process moves forward and these guys get agents they are schooled on what to say. They learn what coaches really want to hear.
If Bridgewater and Mariota are gone Mettenberger is a guy who will draw attention but I would think he may be there when the Browns pick.
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The only time I remember seeing Mettenberger play was about a year or so ago and I did not like what I saw. The defense was blitzing and he seemed immobile and made poor decisions/throws. Maybe that was not a good game for him,his O-line wasn't good, or there were some other circumstances I didn't know about, but to me he looked like a clone of Weeden. I want someone who is at least athletic enough to move when the pocket collapses. If we are starting over at QB I want someone who can move. He doesn't have to be as fast as Kapernick, Pryor, or some QB's known for their running ability but I would like for him to be able to escape the pocket and sometimes extend plays. With okay scrambling ability and throwing on the run it would provide a few more seconds where a play could emerge in the flat or down field.
Find what you love and let it kill you.
-Charles Bukowski
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Mettenberger was total crap last season vs ranked teams, not sure he got better this season, but in 2012 in 5 games vs ranked teams he was:
72/137, 821yds, 6.0ypa, 52.6%, 3 TDs, 3 INTs
I still have to evaluate Carr, Murray, Boyd, Fales and (above all) Mariota closer and I hope someone jumps out, because so far I'm not enamoured with what is projected to be (potentially) 1st rounders.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Mettenberger has shown lots of growth at playing quarterback this year. That is why he has risen up all draft boards.
His 40 time will never scare anyone but right now it is: low 4:96 to high of 5.35.
That is not to shabby.
He is worth looking closely at. You bring him in work him out and put him under bright lights.
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Quote:
Mettenberger was total crap last season vs ranked teams, not sure he got better this season, but in 2012 in 5 games vs ranked teams he was:
72/137, 821yds, 6.0ypa, 52.6%, 3 TDs, 3 INTs
I still have to evaluate Carr, Murray, Boyd, Fales and (above all) Mariota closer and I hope someone jumps out, because so far I'm not enamoured with what is projected to be (potentially) 1st rounders.
and this is why STATS ARE FOR LOSERS .... thanks for the example D ... 
the stats show he played very poorly against ranked teams but (and this is the problem with stats) it doesn't tell us WHY!!!! ....
how did his line hold up? .... was he under duress ... getting hit all day ... how about his receivers ... did they create separation and give him a chance to throw to them and make completions ...
tell me what u saw in those games u didn't like about him .... just don't show me STATS that show he played better against bad comp. than he did good comp .... cause I'm pretty sure u could do that for EVERYONE who ever played the game ....
compare Montana's stats against the Giants and the Rams ... I bet theres a HUGE ASS DISCREPENCY in those numbers also .... 
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Of course stats are just symptoms, but more often than not: where there is fire....
The discrepancy in his splits is very significant and since LSU has pretty good talent everywhere, I do not think he faces more problems than QBs of other teams vs stronger opponents. He loses a lot of accuracy against good comp and that's just a taste of what he'd face in the NFL, if he can't compete there and the coaches are scaling back his plays to me that means that they know he won't win those games and they try to win "despite" him or "with him along the way". That's a problem and not exactly screaming "franchise NFL QB".
Look at Bridgewater's splits, there's almost no difference, which means this guy can play his game no matter who he goes up against at the College level and that qualifies for having a chance at the NFL level.
Btw, Manziel really struggled vs Florida and LSU last season and that's the kind of talent he'll face on sundays. That said, he had a good game vs Bama and has improved in big games since, so he at least found a way to produce and improve.
We will see, but outside of Teddy and (maybe) Mariota I'm not convinced yet of this class. I like the value of some mid round guys like Fales or Boyd (if he slips and gets overanalyzed), but day one franchise QBs? I don't know man, I certainly don't see it with Mettenberger yet.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
J/C
More speculation on my part. What do you guys think of Zach Mettenberger, LSU?
What I see is a big strong QB. Good poise in the pocket, eyes down field even with pressure from a pass rush. Good touch on shorter passes. Can make the vertical throws. As is becoming the norm, most snaps out of the shotgun but will get under center and execute play action. Not very athletic, sub par mobility won't extend many plays with his feet.
Pretty good evaluation of Mettenberger, bro. I'll add to your observations.
--He reminds me more of a Brady-type than Big Ben. He is immobile. Stands tall in the pocket. Keeps his eyes downfield when being pressured. Doesn't extend plays.
--Character concerns. He was a highly recruited player coming out of high school. Went to Georgia. He was charged w/sexual battery for molesting a woman outside a bar. Also charged w/underage drinking and a couple of other things. Lied about it at first. Eventually pled guilty. Banned from stepping foot into one town.
--I like his arm and accuracy. I do worry about his lack of mobility and inability to elude defenders. I think the league is moving towards guys who can both pass and run, i.e. Luck, Rodgers, Wilson, RGIII, etc. I also worry about his knees, especially how he stands in the pocket. He really exposes himself to some late hits and he stands very tall. That can be good, but it can be dangerous.
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Thanks for the extra intel. I only heard vague references to the trouble he'd been in. I knew he'd started out at Georgia but didn't know the circumstances that landed him at LSU. One other thing I noticed. When he rolls out his foot placement, pre-snap, whle under center looked different to me. If I can read that then everybody in the football universe can see it too.
I keep bringing these types of guys up because I'm interested in who might be the "plan B" options if the Browns can't move in to position near the top of the draft.
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Just my take on it, if the guy is immobile, he is not what Chud wants..... So the tier B guys would be Manziel and Boyd.
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First off Diehard...hope you are graced with a Birthday Gift of us trouncing the Ravens! 
When it comes to Football facts - Vers n I actually agree on a lot.
My sentiments mirror his a lot on this (only read his first post).
I saw a good game from him in his first game. Refreshing n obvious that he GOT it...wasn't quite sold on his accuracy and his possibilities of being "THE GUY" but maybe a great guy to have as a back up.
Then his Game #2 came...n I can care less who the opponents were talking about his play. His improvements from Game 1 to 2 were IMPRESSIVE...to the point that I was like giggling like a kid..."Could we finally have THE GUY".
Then game 3 came... 
Not only were we robbed of a possible playoff season, but the opportunity to once n for all establish 100% that we had our Franchise QB here n utilize all our picks in other areas.
I don't think we will go to the extreme...utilize picks to move up. I think this is a strong draft class so that One or more will be available at our lowest first round pick (evidently ours not the Colts) I do really like Johnny Manziel but thats for another thread. I just think he would do well and will drop because he is getting the crap beat out of him this season. He doesn't have the Heisman hype. Along with his size n injuries to guys like RG3.
But I see him as a BETTER Wilson...I'll stop there cause I can go on forever
My point is with Hoyer although he cannot answer our quest with 100% certainty due to insufficient data base. What his play might of done was decrease the need to an extent that we take a QB we have studied and wish to develop...Again Manziel can rest his injuries that some will question. For all we know his shoulder will need surgery in that case he would be available with the Colts pick. Let him Heal, let him Learn and Let Hoyer start...When we deem our pick ready to take over and excellent success from Hoyer...we have the QB narvana of trading one for possibly 2 first round picks??? This has always been my UTOPIC Dream situation. 
JMHO - Plan...I think we draft one that falls to our slot. We will not do the 3first round pick move up thingy into the top 3.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Just my take on it, if the guy is immobile, he is not what Chud wants..... So the tier B guys would be Manziel and Boyd.
This is how I feel as' well...
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Bigfoot, I hear ya but when you suggest (I know you didn't actually say it) that the decision only comes down to 3 or 4 guys that's worrisome to me. I hope the FO is scouting a lot of guys beyond that population.
Right now this QB selection is much less clear than the #1 selection of Mingo and I admit I didn't see that coming. Much less clear, infinitely more crucial.
On the issue of mobility, its an attribute I want in some quantity as well. For me the problem is the shorter QB's have it but their stature concerns me.
Last edited by guard dawg; 11/03/13 10:40 AM.
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Here is a list of draft eligible QB’s by class. Just a list of guys that we might consider not a ranking by any means.
SENIORS
AJ McCarron - Alabama
Mettenberger - LSU
Boyd - Clemson
Carr – Fresno State
Murrey – Georgia
Matthews – Cornell
Fales - San Jose St
Renner – NC
Morris – Miami Fl
Thomas - Va Tech
Lynch – NIU
Franklin – Missouri
JUNIORS
Bridgewater - Louisville
Petty - Baylor
Bortels - UCF
Mannion – Oregon ST
Smith - Wyoming
Gardner – Michigan
Miller - OSU
Fajardo – Nevada
RED SHIRT SOPHOMORES
Mariotta - Oregon
Hundley - UCLA
Manziel - Texas A&M
Hogan - Stanford
Did I miss anybody we should be thinking about?
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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After yesterday's performance the point has been driven home, for me, that whoever the team selects has to be mobile. Now that isn't the only criteria but it is among the must haves along with arm strength, pocket presence and decision making. They don't have to be Cam Newton but they gotta have wheels.
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Quote:
First off Diehard...hope you are graced with a Birthday Gift of us trouncing the Ravens!
Thanks eo!
Seeing them beat the rats in person was the best gift (no disrespect to my wife  )
As for the long term strategy, I think now it only comes down to who starts next year, Campbell or Hoyer, while a young pup learns the ropes.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Quote:
After yesterday's performance the point has been driven home, for me, that whoever the team selects has to be mobile. Now that isn't the only criteria but it is among the must haves along with arm strength, pocket presence and decision making. They don't have to be Cam Newton but they gotta have wheels.
Tajh Boyd
#brownsgoodkarma
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Quote:
After yesterday's performance the point has been driven home, for me, that whoever the team selects has to be mobile. Now that isn't the only criteria but it is among the must haves along with arm strength, pocket presence and decision making. They don't have to be Cam Newton but they gotta have wheels.
Does Campbell have wheels? Does Hoyer, really?
I don't know that this is a top concern. I would think that accuracy, ball placement, leadership, and any number of other traits would be way ahead of running ability. A QB has to be able to move effectively in the pocket, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he has to be able to run a 4.3 40. Knowing how and where to step in the pocket is far more important.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Here is a list of draft eligible QB’s by class. Just a list of guys that we might consider not a ranking by any means.
SENIORS
AJ McCarron - Alabama
Mettenberger - LSU
Boyd - Clemson
Carr – Fresno State
Murrey – Georgia
Matthews – Cornell
Fales - San Jose St
Renner – NC
Morris – Miami Fl
Thomas - Va Tech
Lynch – NIU
Franklin – Missouri
JUNIORS
Bridgewater - Louisville
Petty - Baylor
Bortels - UCF
Mannion – Oregon ST
Smith - Wyoming
Gardner – Michigan
Miller - OSU
Fajardo – Nevada
RED SHIRT SOPHOMORES
Mariotta - Oregon
Hundley - UCLA
Manziel - Texas A&M
Hogan - Stanford
Did I miss anybody we should be thinking about?
Think you got 'em all, at least the significant ones, anyway.
Wow, you could argue 8 or 9 of those guys could get round 1 grades. Damn.
Could not work out any better for us, deep QB draft and 2 picks, and not a huge reason to tank or hope for a high pick.
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FYI....This Saturday night will be a hugh test to see what he's about
Mettenberger will be on national TV facing Alabama, I think will know alot more about him after this game.
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Quote:
--Character concerns. He was a highly recruited player coming out of high school. Went to Georgia. He was charged w/sexual battery for molesting a woman outside a bar. Also charged w/underage drinking and a couple of other things. Lied about it at first. Eventually pled guilty. Banned from stepping foot into one town.
He sounds more & more like Ben 
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Oregon versus Stanford also this week. Mariota and Hogan.
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Quote:
As for the long term strategy, I think now it only comes down to who starts next year, Campbell or Hoyer, while a young pup learns the ropes.
We'll have to see how the remainder of the season goes, but I'll ask the draft question anyway.
That question is this: With Campbell & Hoyer signed through next season, are the Browns under pressure to select the teams 'future QB' in the early rounds of the draft or can they feel comfortable waiting to the 3rd or 4th round to select him?
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All Pro
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Just Clicking.
I know he's a real young one at 19. But no mention of Jameis Winston?
And the next head coach is ......
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j/c
Let's assume for a minute that the Browns are pleased enough with Hoyer/Campbell and not pleased enough with the "top" QBs coming out this year. (Which describes me to a 'T'...although I'll admit I've not seen a lot of the "top" guys very much.)
Anyway...so let's say we won't trade up in the next draft.
I think we need an upgrade at G and ILB...moreso than anywhere else...then probably a tie at WR and S. The second need could become a three-way tie if Lewis can't return at RB.
I don't see many 1st Rd picks spent on 3-4 ILBs. Some people have a fit when considering a 1st Rd G. We won't spend a 1st on a RB.
BPA aside...our (2) biggest weaknesses (IMO) are at positions not typically drafted in the first round.
If we end up where it appears we might...and the Colts keep winning...and we don't have a crush on any QB...could we simply take the best G, S, or WR available at the moment we pick?
What if we get a FA haul on O like we did last year on D?
What if we get a G & WR2 in FA?
I'm starting to think that we will trade some of this year's haul (picks) to get another 1st in 2015.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Just Clicking.
I know he's a real young one at 19. But no mention of Jameis Winston?
not in the 2014 draft
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Just Clicking.
I know he's a real young one at 19. But no mention of Jameis Winston?
A few factors come into play there.
1. He's not eligible until a year from May.
2. At this pace he's the overall #1 pick in 2015. I don't think you can ever look that far ahead to a guy who may be that high of a pick. The Browns have not had that pick since their second year of the rebirth. Think about all the sucking the Browns have done yet they haven't sucked bad enough to get that pick since C. Brown.
3. Think about how guys look one year, and come back and sometimes they aren't all that good. Matt Barkley, Landry Jones, Clowney, etc... You can also look at how Andrew Luck played in his first year, and how he came back his last... (I still lean toward Winston being legitimate, but you still never know)
4. FSU seems to be on a crash course with Alabama. As much as it would suck to see OSU left out, I would love to see Winston matched up against a rested and prepared Nick Saban/Kirby Smart defense. That would be a hell of a game, and may tell you a little more about his prospects for the NFL.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Yeah, for as much of a hurting as FSU put on Miami on Saturday, he didn't look special to me.
I know it's only tangentially-relevant to Winston but I'm kind of worried about what we're going to end up with in terms of drafted QB this offseason. I'm not sold on any of them.
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856 |
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Yeah, for as much of a hurting as FSU put on Miami on Saturday, he didn't look special to me.
I know it's only tangentially-relevant to Winston but I'm kind of worried about what we're going to end up with in terms of drafted QB this offseason. I'm not sold on any of them.
I like the deep class, even if none scream Andrew Luck or "once every other decade QB" the odds are good that one of these guys ends up a stud.
More importantly it's a nice, big group of guys for them to go over and find the best fit for what Chud wants to do. After seeing what Lombardi was able to do finding Hoyer out of the scrap heap, and what Chud has done with both Hoyer and Campbell, I have faith in whatever they do. I feel good about what direction they go with. If they like one of these guys that isn't mocked into the top 10-15 better than those that are? I'm good with that.
I really hope Chud has a big say in that decision I think his voice should be the most important.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Yeah I still have to watch more of Petty, Bortles, Carr (though I saw him make a couple nice throws this week). It will be revealing to see how Mettenberger does against 'Bama this week. Might look for some old stuff on Pachall as a late rounder and try and catch what the Garappolo show is all about.
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