DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Cavs (and NBA) Preseason Thread

I feel sad watching Bynum.

He throws Bosh around like a rag doll. However I don't know how long he can do this.

This is the funniest commercial I've seen in a LONG time

http://youtu.be/VqSnozW9IJM

I would love to dump Waiters.

During the offseason, there was a pretty active Cavs thread, and I couldn't believe how many liked the guy.

He's a chucker with a bad attitude who hasn't shown very much progress.

He should be a 6th/7th man.

The worst part is ... we could of had Victor Oladipo in the draft, and doubled up on the SG position, while TT had his breakout year. Instead we took Bennett, who doesn't look like he's going to start any time soon and doubled up on PF, while TT appears to be a viable starting option. That left Dion at SG, who appears to have contracted Larry Hughes disease.

This will sound extreme, but I almost want to mention Chris Grant in Art Modell territory of screwing Cleveland. He has beyond screwed this team in the draft. I'm just thankful he didn't sign any horrible contracts.

This egotistical . tried to be the smartest guy in the room and never deserves another NBA job again.

Olidipo has off the chart intangibles. He is a team Guy. Waiters not as much, and it seems this team needs broken up. I think waiters is talented, he needs to be a point guard, or a 6th man. We just have too much young talent that can't work well together. Plus our outside shooting is terrible and Bennett has been a bust. He was suppose to be an outside threat.

The only pick that he really whiffed on was the Bennett. That pick will probably cost him his job. At least Dion and tristian have some upside that we could use to trade. Too bad we couldn't land beal. He would have been a better fit than Dion. He also should have told Dan not to hire brown. He is a horrible fit. Every player has regressed over last year. Should have went with an offensive coach. Just a mess of a situation.

I think that it is way, way too early to call Bennett a bust. He has been epically bad so far, but it's still early in his career, and he is still working his way back from injury.

As far as Waiters, I like a lot that he brings to the floor, but it is obvious that he and Irving cannot play together. I feel that he did a very solid job last year, especially when he played point when Irving was out. (or out of the game) I do think that he has the ability to be a valuable piece of a winning NBA team. I do not feel that it will be here though.

This is going to sound bad, but I do agree with what Waiters is reported to have said in that players only meeting. Irving does get selfish at the end of games, and stops the offense. It's fine when he's on, but when he's not, the offense stops. Irving has to learn to distribute more, especially in pressure situations. It's fine to be willing to take the big shot at a key time, but if a teammate has a better shot, it is your responsibility to get them the ball instead. I like that he is willing to take the big shot, but he has to realize that he doesn't always have the best shot.

As far as Bynum, I am not as down on him as many seem to be. When we signed him, we all wondered if he would even be playing at this point of the season. He is not himself yet, but he is working his way back into shape.

I do wish that we would work on the offense more than we do ..... but I understand that Brown is a defensive coach, and that's where he is going to put his primary emphasis. However, we need the offensive side to work as well. It's OK to put 60% or even 65% of practice into defense ..... but we need to put more into the offense.

I agree about Irving. But what could the organization do with him? Its similar to the lebron situation. You want him in your organization, but you don't want to rub him the wrong way. Just have to find a coach that could get the most out of him.

Kyrie thinks of himself as elite, the problem is he isn't. He's an above average ball handler, average shooter and below average defender, He drives and don't get calls he stays at the other end to argue leaving his teammates to defense 4 on 5. Brown doesn't have the balls to be an NBA coach. We need a coach that isn't scared to tell any player he's sucking and hurting the team. For being a supposed defensive team..I haven't seen much of that. Our guards might be some of the worst combos in the NBA...Kyrie and jack are turnover machines and neither one can guard. To be honest, I'd take livingston over jack any day. This changing rotations day in and day out has to stop. Put a rotation together and play it for 10-15 games. We need to break this team up and get some shooters, we currently have none. Even when we are getting open shots, we are missing way too many. I agree with many about Chris Grant...i couldn't believe he was given the job outright and we didn't look for others after ferry left. I mean grant was a ferry protege and we see how good danny drafted. Bennett if he is going to have any chance of becoming a player he needs to be in D league.. I have no idea why he is still up here. it's not like he's playing quality minutes.. let him go down and get starters minutes and build his game up..The fact this hasn't been done yet is just another indication we have a clueless coaching staff and FO.

I agree with Irving not being an elite player right now, but he has the potential to be one. Right now he's the best we have, and if leaves or is traded we are starting over. But like you said we need a coach that has credibility to do the discipline.

That's one thing I can't stand about the NBA. It is a players league, and the superstars run the league. A team like the cavs, its impossible to attract free agents, and even their good draft picks, you're at their mercy for the most part.

Irving has the potential to be a top player. However, unless he changes his game and is willing to give up a bad shot to give a teammate a great shot, then he will never reach that level.

Irving has elite quickness. That really is his elite characteristic. He's not bigger and/or stronger than his counterparts. He's a solid shooter, but not an elite one. Again though, this is because of the number of bad shots he takes, because he seems unwilling to let his teammates take a pressure shot.

I think that there was something similar to this poster earlier, but regardless, this has the names/teams most interesting to the Cavaliers.

I would like to keep Waiters and make him an elite 6th man type, if he would accept that role. I do not think that his game meshes with Irving's though. (Duh lol)

Anyway, Knicks, Sixers, and Bulls so far. One name mentioned is Evan Turner. Why the Sixers would make that trade is beyond me, but if they would, I would do that in a heartbeat. Anyway, might be an interesting next week or 2.

Report: Cavaliers shopping Dion Waiters - CBSSports.com
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24292621/report-cavaliers-shopping-dion-waiters

Anyone want a shoot-first volume scoring shooting guard?

According to ESPN.com, the Cavaliers are shopping Dion Waiters, with the Knicks, Bulls and 76ers the most interested of the bunch.

According to the report, the Cavs are targeting Iman Shumpert from the Knicks, Evan Turner for the 76ers and Luol Deng from the Bulls. The Cavs are "believed" to have reached out to other teams about interest in Waiters as well.

The former No. 4 overall pick from 2012, Waiters has had an up and down start to his career, struggling with efficiency on the offensive end. According to a report, Waiters also has had issues with teammates, specifically Kyrie Irving. Waiters hasn't requested a trade, but he has reportedly broached the topic with management.

The Cavs recently has a players-only meeting that turned contentious, with Waiters reportedly in the middle, beefing with Tristan Thompson. According to the ESPN.com report:

Irving called the meeting after the game, and every player spoke. When Waiters was given the floor, he criticized Thompson and Irving, accusing them of playing "buddy ball'' and often refusing to pass to him. Thompson took umbrage with Waiters' words and went back at him verbally. The two confronted each other, but teammates intervened before it could escalate into a fight.

Waiters, 21, is averaging 13.0 points and 2.3 assists a game this season.

Deng is probably the best fit for brown. Good all around player. Not sure about Turner. He needs the ball like Dion, but he is more polished and more team oriented. I think they may look at Gordon heyward and Rudy gay. The way its going that's probably the best they could hope for in free agency/trades. Lebron isn't coming back to this mess for what he has in Miami.

Some have opined that Lebron may decide to stay with Miami for one more year by picking up his player's option for this/coming year only.

That very well could happen.

All 3 took less money 3 years ago. I'm sure bosh could get another Max deal and be the main Guy. But the situation in Miami is hard to compete with. They love love playing with each other, are winning, and have a stable front office.the cavs are in a really bad transition, they would have to turn this around quickly to get him interested.The heat would have to lose also. The only other situation that James may be intrigued is the clippers

With James being a businessman, it might be hard to convince him to go from a state with no state income tax to one (California) with a top rate of 10% on earnings over $1 million. His ability to make money on endorsements and such is not dependent upon location as it is for some players, and he can't make more money playing for a West Coast team than he can playing anywhere else.

It's not like being a Clipper, or a Laker, will make him be a bigger star.

I think he stays in Miami. But I said the clippers are more attractive than the cavs if he decided to leave.

The addition of Beasley was huge for Miami. He's a legit scorer that isn't 35 years old and is no longer saddled with the expectations that come with being a top pick.

All things being even close to equal, taxes would play a big role.

If a player makes $15 million, then a 10% state tax over $1 million means that it costs that player $1.4 million more to play in California than in Florida,

Is it a primary concern? No. Is it a concern? Most certainly, especially if all of his income is subject to that state tax rate based on residency. If he makes $40 million in salary and endorsements, a real possibility, then it could be almost a $4 million difference in state taxes, over and above his federal tax burden.

A guy like James makes money anywhere. There is no real advantage for him to head off to Southern California. A company is not going to pay him more for endorsements because he plays in California. He's a star anywhere. His salary, however, will remain the same no matter what team he plays for. He will get a max deal anywhere. If he pays a 39% federal tax rate, then adds a 10% state rate on top f that, then yeah, I think that can have an impact. (Unless an NBA owner does something unethical such as putting the player on the books of another of his businesses as part of a back-door deal)

Taxes don't really factor much. That's just more or less parroting of political propaganda.

I guess if there's some weird scenario where James thinks that two situations are both so ideal that he can't possibly choose between them, then tax rate might factor, but it would rank amongst 'Moving is annoying'.

A deal is good or it's not. Taxes don't matter.

A guy like LeBron pays people to circumvent them for him. Tax rates are extremely soft and flexible when you have money.

If they're not...you pay them and shrug.

It's somewhat comical what the GOP and "conservative" movement have led people to believe in terms of what a "businessman" would do. It's like a second-grade economics class that millions of adults take, nodding while the teacher lectures.

In almost any case I can think of, James will be the difference maker on a team. If he looks at teams that have a pair of young superstars, how likely are they to be willing to give up a lot of money to bring in another guy?

The situation in Miami was special, and I think the fact that Florida has no state income tax played a big part as far as why each guy was willing to take a reduced salary to play there, as opposed to anywhere else they could have played.Further, the role players the heat attract are also able to take less to play in Miami because of the tax situation. if a guy has a contract offer somewhere else that is higher, the fact that Florida has no state income tax can equalize things.

Yes, I do think that taxes play a large role in things, especially in the "Big 3" landing, specifically, in Miami. Each guy took a salary of $17 million as a starting base in their contract. Kobe started out at $27 million in 2012. Do I think that James and Co. would have taken that kind of hit in order to go play in California if they were also taking a huge tax hit as well? No I don't. IIRC, James and Co would have been eligible for salaries approaching $20 million, but chose to go with significantly lower salaries so they could all play together. I believe that they chose Miami specifically because the state income tax situation made it preferable to do so there than anywhere else.

So, do I think that it did, and does make a difference? yes, I do.

The state income tax thing may have played some part in it, but I don't think it's as significant as you're making it out to be. They still have to pay state income taxes when they play teams in other states. I'd also bet that the property taxes on that Coral Gables mansion don't come cheap.

Yeah, taxes don't matter to LBJ.

I think YTown's letting his political worldview dictate his opinion in this regard.

I also don't think he knows much about the NBA and/or having a lot of money.

I know that sounds like a dig, though I don't mean it to be. YTown sounds like a good guy deep down inside. He just has a tendency to want to feel/sound/be right.

But he does tend to go down with the ship in such pursuits.

Don't we all, though?

I disagree.

Lebron, Wade and Bosh could have signed anywhere together. Any team could have traded away players to make room. They chose Miami. I am sure that lifestyle played a part, but Bosh has mentioned the high tax rates in Canada as a reason he wanted out of Toronto. I am sure that it played a part in their decision as far as where to go, because they could make up some of the difference in the salary they gave up to sign together. Property taxes may be higher, but that's not a multi million dollar per year proposition.

As I said, I am sure that lifestyle played a part in where the 3 players went, and they really could have gone anywhere together and a team would have accommodated them. Who wouldn't have wanted a ready made championship team?

SO BAD

Yeah, I'm getting concerned.

I think that Grant has to make a move or 2.

We took Tyler Zeller over Sullinger. Grant should be fired on that alone. Gilbert deserves an F for the brown hiring. This is a train wreck from the top down to the players. We look just as bad as we did in 2010. No progress at all. If anything we need a veteran leader. If Brown can't get through, we need a david west type to lay into irving, waiters, all of these young guys.

This team is just horrible to watch..Gilbert just needs to get rid of Brown and Grant and say it was a mistake, he apologizes, and He'll make this right..then bring in someone who actually knows wtf they are doing because these two clowns don't

Yup, being early in the season is no longer an excuse. Tomorrow is December and this thing is a joke.

Cavs fans have put up with too much garbage the last couple of years. They've exceeded expectations with attendance and have nothing to show for it.

I see some major personnel changes coming. I don't think that the coaching staff is going to change. They just gave Brown a huge contract. He's not going anywhere.

I'll tell you one thing that really confuses the hell out of me ....... and that is this:

What happened to Tristan Thompson? He was a double double machine ...... until 5 games or so ago.

In the past 5 games he has scored 2, 12, 5, 4. and 2 points. His minutes have dropped from 40 per or so to 25 or so ..... and to me, this is a kid who has earned his minutes on the court, and pulling him to this extent just blows my mind.

The rotations are a mess. I'd like to see a starting lineup of Kyrie, Bynum, TT, Gee and CJ. Focus on Kyrie getting the ball to Bynum and TT in the post or kicking it out to CJ for open looks. Let TT clean up on the boards. Gee can be a fifth option on offense while focusing on locking down the other team's 2 or 3 on defense. Andy and Dion as high-energy "instant offense" guys off the bench, and Jack to spell Kyrie at the point or when they go to this smaller/quicker three-guard lineup.

We're more concerned about docking guys' playing time than we are about letting a unit play together and gel.

Oh yeah...totally forgot Clark was on the team lol