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Of course as usual...you completely missed the point....
What QB was Cincy supposed to draft at #10...There was none....So your argument that they took LT first is completely irrelevant. It was a matter of what was available and not some almighty plan that they HAD to get LT first.
and someone mentioned Indianapolis as further proof...well that is bunk too as Jim Druckenmiller was the first QB taken at#26 overall...There wasn't any good QB's that year....so it wasn't this all knowing master plan about taking LT first...
You want innaccuracies....how about this....all of that was NOT because we didn't have a LT....It doesn't get any simpler than that....and drafting Thomas...which would be great....is not going to insure that it never happens again....And guess what...those 9 "tackle dummies" were part of the problem as well.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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In Cincy? Their LT came first. And San Diego is a prime example of what a good rookie looks like against a washed up,underperforming Veteran. McNeill played 16 games. So you can carry on all you want. But recent NFL history shows that protecting that young QB,is just as much or more important than having your QB in and of itself.
But heck,let's ignore all of that.
i wont ignore it ... but i will put it into PROPER PERSPECTIVE as it comes NO WHERE NEAR THE HORSECRAP POINT your trying to pawn it off as making ... I mean Pit .. this is HORSECRAP and U know it ...
it seems yor trying to tell me that U need to get your LT for the future before u get your QB .. well thats HORSECRAP .. its laughable for many reasons ..
1. trying to boil the QB's success down to one player on the OL is a JOKE .. at best ...
in Cinci .. I'll go out on a limb here (one thats not near as strudy as your LT is th ebe all end all .. *LOL* . ) and say that Stienbach/Anderson/Chad Johnson/TJ and Rudi had an AWFUL LOT TO DO WITH Palmers success ..
in SD .. Darth and Gates went along way into helping Rivers .. not to mentionthe fact they had a GREAT D that certainly made his job a hell of alot easier .. hell Pit in their first game I dont know if he even threw a pass .. *LOL* ..
and in SD that WASHED UP VET u talk about .. helped a YOUNG QB named Brees make the Pro Bowl the year before .. how'd that happen??? *LOL* ..
2. How about we just for a second take into account the SKILL SET of the QB's ... I mean the fact that palmer was the best QB to come out of college in 5 or 6 years and has ALL THE TOOLS to be a GREAT ONE had nuttin to do with it .. it was Jones PROTECTING HIM ALL BY HIMSELF .. 
Rivers was the 4th pick overall and had some MAD SKILLS ... but that had nuttin to do with it ... it was McNeil providing his backside support .. 
and then Soup brings up Manning/glenn .. *LOL* .. are u kidding me??? that had nuttin to do with Edge/Marve and manning skill set at all .. if they didnt have Glenn .. Manning wouldnt have STOOD A CHANCE and would more than likely be selling insurance somewhere by now .... BWAAAHHAAAAA ....
like i said bro .... when Indi was down by 20 to the Pats .. there wasn't one Indi fan (well other than his mother) saying .. 'THANK GOD WE HAVE TARIK GLENN" ..... 
and u and Pete both need to CUT THE CRAP .. Pete .. saying we'd be better of with BQ/Grubbs than Thomas Frye is IRRELIVENT for many reasons ... for starters we could have Thomas/Grubbs/Frye .. and with BQ we can thave both Olman .. but thats not my point here ..
WE NEED TO ADRESS BOTH POSITIONS BEFORE WE WIN .. so save the we'll be better off crap for the dolts .. don't bring it into a real convo with a seni intelligent dolt .. 
and Pitt as Pete says take the melodramatic crap back to acting class (or the play your starring in now .. .. ) .. you guys been bringing up our QB's for along time .. and u have a point .. they all been hurt .. ALMOST ALL OF THEM have another thing in common .. THEY STUNK ... not one of them left here and did a thing anywhere else other than Garcia . we all knew and know he was good .. we tried to take an allpe and make it an orange .. didnt; work well .. *L* .. and then Timid we'll never about .. never given a chance to suceed .. all the rest ... BUMS .... so save that argument for the dolts .. its OLD AND HORSECRAP ..
look guys .. we need a LT .. NO DOUBT .. anyone that don't agree is just kidding themselves ... well guess what . we also need a QB ... and not another BUM ..
U all know i would prefer BQ but if we get Joe I will have an ear to ear smile ... we'll be a much better team in 2 or 3 years with EITHER OF THESE GUYS .. (save the who makes us better for next year argument .. cause for either of them they will make us minimally better next year at best . ) .. and thats al that matters ...
and Pete .. if we get Russell were going to SERIOUSLY REGRET it for a long long time .. you all will see .. accuracy/decision making problems will never OVERCOME being able to throw a ball through a brick wall .. see Kyle Boller ..
and of we draft Peterson were MAKING A HUGE MISTAKE .. he has the talent .. but he has the injuries u have to be concerned about and he also plays a position that is a hell of alot easier to fill than LT or QB ...
sorry Pete but if Opie takes either of those guys .. its Dopie .. NO DOUBT about it ..
and Pit u have one problem with your theory about folks dont get the OL or folks change to the "sexy" pick between the end of the season and draft day .... cause well I have pimped OL as hard or harder than anyone on this board since day 1 .. and I have pimped BQ since day 1 this year .. for the sole reason ...
THE QB TOUCHES THE BALL ON EVERY PLAY ..
so explain me away with somethng intelligent ... and being an ND fan isnt an intelligent exolanation .. thats for dolts that aretn; smart enough to come up with anythnig else ..
at the end of the day folks .. BQ or Joe should MAKE US ALL SMILE ..
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at the end of the day folks .. BQ or Joe should MAKE US ALL SMILE ..
That says it all right there.
I have a hard time believing that if we drafted BQ, then followed up with a guard in round 2 (although I'm beginning to believe we'll go corner because I think there's gonna be a run on corners early in the second like the run on linebackers last year...but if we go corner we WILL draft a guard in round 3), that our O-line will be screwed like everyone seems to predict.
We signed Steinbach, Bentley MAY be back (but I'm not betting on it), Tucker is still reliable, Fraley is another quality guy. Shaffer would be the weakest link. I'm ok with that for now. I'm not too high on McKinney but I think he'll be the first one off the bench anyway.
Bottom line is I don't see this year's line being a trainwreck like last year's just because Kevin Shaffer is our left tackle AS LONG AS WE INVEST IN O-LINE ON THE FIRST DAY.
The way I see it, if Quinn is there, Thomas is gone, and if Thomas is gone, Quinn is there. Gimme either of them.
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Let me chime in for a single moment to see if I can clear up Pits view a tad (he and I share the same view).
You need a solid left tackle to be a successful offense. Last year Frye (through the KC game injury) was the most hit QB in the NFL. Our QBs have a history of getting annihalated. Pit is saying that no matter who the QB has been, the hits have remained. We've had at least one injured QB every year since '99. Several years we've had multiple QB injuries.
So the question to ask is: What will picking Brady Quinn do to end that string?
Here's how I (and I beleive Pit) see's it. For arguments sake, we pick Quinn. He's to sit for the year.
Frye starts, plays 7 games and gets hurt from all the hits. What do you do next? Put in Quinn. Suddenly he's getting hit non-stop and developing bad habits.
People don't like to hear this, but at some point we have to suck it up and fix what's gone untouched for so long - the o-line. You don't need to have a 1st round QB to win in the NFL. You do, however, need to have a top tier o-line. We could do a lot to fix that with our first 2 picks if Thomas is available at #3. JMHO, Pit - I hope I'm on par with your thoughts.
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The guy I don't want any part of at all is Peterson.
I don't really have a problem with Peterson as some do because i don't view his injuries as chronic type injuries.
He sprained a ankle and broke a collar bone. I am not saying I like that but I don't really see that as a trend anymore than I see Thomas as a guy who's knees are going to give out......stuff happens...those a playing injuries...things you can't predict or things that foretell bad things to come. The guys I worry about are guys who always pull muscles or have some know physical defect like Suggs and his skinny neck bone.
Chances are pretty good Peterson never breaks a collar bone again....as to a sprained ankle.that can happen to anybody who runs and jumps......I wouldn't call Ginn injury prone for spraining his ankle....I am pretty sure AP didn't do it walking down the road...someone rolled on it or twisted it in some way....cleats caught....something you can't predict or forecast anymore than you can for anyone else..
...
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Let me chime in for a single moment to see if I can clear up Pits view a tad (he and I share the same view).
You need a solid left tackle to be a successful offense. Last year Frye (through the KC game injury) was the most hit QB in the NFL. Our QBs have a history of getting annihalated. Pit is saying that no matter who the QB has been, the hits have remained. We've had at least one injured QB every year since '99. Several years we've had multiple QB injuries.
So the question to ask is: What will picking Brady Quinn do to end that string?
Here's how I (and I beleive Pit) see's it. For arguments sake, we pick Quinn. He's to sit for the year.
Frye starts, plays 7 games and gets hurt from all the hits. What do you do next? Put in Quinn. Suddenly he's getting hit non-stop and developing bad habits.
People don't like to hear this, but at some point we have to suck it up and fix what's gone untouched for so long - the o-line. You don't need to have a 1st round QB to win in the NFL. You do, however, need to have a top tier o-line. We could do a lot to fix that with our first 2 picks if Thomas is available at #3. JMHO, Pit - I hope I'm on par with your thoughts.
Here's how I see it.
Last year, the O-line as a unit sucked. With the main weakness being in interior. Andruzzi and Coleman were worthless, and we were not expecting Bentley to get hurt.
We signed Steinbach in FA, there's a glimmer of hope that Bentley will be back. I expect us to draft O-line on the first day. In fact, I'll be pissed if we don't.
I don't think Kevin Shaffer is the solution, but I don't think he's the sole reason our QB's have gotten killed either. I think if we upgrade the interior we should be OK. Not dominant, but good enough to where whoever's playing QB will not get killed. (thanks for pointing that mistake out!)
I definitely believe in Thomas and O-line investment, but I don't think the sky will fall if we don't pick him. What if Detroit takes him?
Last edited by Ammo; 04/14/07 05:27 PM.
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Quote:
Quote:
Let me chime in for a single moment to see if I can clear up Pits view a tad (he and I share the same view).
You need a solid left tackle to be a successful offense. Last year Frye (through the KC game injury) was the most hit QB in the NFL. Our QBs have a history of getting annihalated. Pit is saying that no matter who the QB has been, the hits have remained. We've had at least one injured QB every year since '99. Several years we've had multiple QB injuries.
So the question to ask is: What will picking Brady Quinn do to end that string?
Here's how I (and I beleive Pit) see's it. For arguments sake, we pick Quinn. He's to sit for the year.
Frye starts, plays 7 games and gets hurt from all the hits. What do you do next? Put in Quinn. Suddenly he's getting hit non-stop and developing bad habits.
People don't like to hear this, but at some point we have to suck it up and fix what's gone untouched for so long - the o-line. You don't need to have a 1st round QB to win in the NFL. You do, however, need to have a top tier o-line. We could do a lot to fix that with our first 2 picks if Thomas is available at #3. JMHO, Pit - I hope I'm on par with your thoughts.
Here's how I see it.
Last year, the O-line as a unit sucked. With the main weakness being in interior. Andruzzi and Coleman were worthless, and we were not expecting Bentley to get hurt.
We signed Steinbach in FA, there's a glimmer of hope that Bentley will be back. I expect us to draft O-line on the first day. In fact, I'll be pissed if we don't.
I don't think Kevin Shaffer is the solution, but I don't think he's the sole reason our QB's have gotten killed either. I think if we upgrade the interior we should be OK. Not dominant, but good enough to where whoever's playing QB will get killed.
I definitely believe in Thomas and O-line investment, but I don't think the sky will fall if we don't pick him. What if Detroit takes him? I think if we upgrade the interior we should be OK. Not dominant, but good enough to where whoever's playing QB will get killed.
You may want to revise what's in bold, lol. If Detroit takes him then I go Peterson. I believe in Frye. It takes longer than 1 year of starting experience behind a horrific o-line to know what a guy has. By the same token, let's say we pick Quinn - he ends up playing and pulls an Alex Smith as a rookie 1 TD and 11 ints. then what? Pick another QB? If you say no - he needs time to develop - then why write off Frye? If we build the TEAM properly - we don't need a 1st round QB.
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I wonder how the Browns have graded Schaffer?
I guess if he graded poorly, Thomas will be the pick. If he graded well enough, Thomas won't be the pick.
I don't know that it's that black and white.
Pete probably hit close to the mark when noted how the Browns may view the situation. Are we better with Quinn and Necktie or with Frye and Thomas?
Here's betting they favor the former.............
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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pit can handle it himself .. and he certainly dont need your help .. and PLEASE dotn even try and explain anything for me .. EVER .. are u seriously trying to tell me that the LT has been the SOLE REASON our OL's have always sucked?? *LOL* .. U gotta be kidding me .. thats not even worth responding to .. Pit .. is this how u feel??? I'll speak for Pit here (and do a much better job than u did .... we'll let Pit decide if he was backed against a wall and had to have one of us speak for him witch one he'd rather have do it .. ) .. ) ... anyhow Pit KNOWS that the LT position was not the SOLE or even the MAIN REASON our QB's been mush .... Pit believes that LT is PART OF THE PROBLEM but that our GUT has been so week that they haven't even been close to the biggest problem ... Pit also says he wants to CONTINUE TO UPGRADE the interior of the line while full well understanding that LT is the anchor and most important position on it ... but make no mistake about it ... Pit KNOWS LT has not been the major reason for our LACK OF PRODUCTION or QB INJURIES ... that woudl be the middle of the line being WORSE than the LT position .. who did better Pitt?? and if u had to Pitt ... and even if U and soup agreed 100% on the topic and U and I could'n;t agree less .. who would u rather have speaking for U??? ... 
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Garcia has proven it's not the QB here,it's the team around him. But let's just forget about that,shall we?
What Garcia proved is it's more to do in the system he plays in than anything else. He does not have what it take to run whatever system we were trying. In a west coast offense he has excelled.
#gmstrong
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pit can handle it himself .. and he certainly dont need your help .. and PLEASE dotn even try and explain anything for me .. EVER ..
are u seriously trying to tell me that the LT has been the SOLE REASON our OL's have always sucked?? *LOL* .. U gotta be kidding me .. thats not even worth responding to ..
Pit .. is this how u feel???
I'll speak for Pit here (and do a much better job than u did .... we'll let Pit decide if he was backed against a wall and had to have one of us speak for him witch one he'd rather have do it .. ) .. ) ...
anyhow Pit KNOWS that the LT position was not the SOLE or even the MAIN REASON our QB's been mush ....
Pit believes that LT is PART OF THE PROBLEM but that our GUT has been so week that they haven't even been close to the biggest problem ...
Pit also says he wants to CONTINUE TO UPGRADE the interior of the line while full well understanding that LT is the anchor and most important position on it ...
but make no mistake about it ... Pit KNOWS LT has not been the major reason for our LACK OF PRODUCTION or QB INJURIES ... that woudl be the middle of the line being WORSE than the LT position ..
who did better Pitt?? and if u had to Pitt ... and even if U and soup agreed 100% on the topic and U and I could'n;t agree less .. who would u rather have speaking for U??? ...
Aw, cute little Mr. degrading is back. Here's the straight up facts. Our line has sucked since '99 in all facets. Here's a list of QBs injured while playing for the Browns
Detmer
Couch
Holcomb
Wynn
Peterson
*Northcutt - injured shoulder playing QB
Garcia
McCown
Dilfer
Frye
Anderson
Pit was 2 QBs short.
The line - left to right - is less than average. The line starts with the LT. What would you rather have:
QB - Frye
LT - Thomas
LG - Steinbach
C - Fraley
RG - Grubbs
RT - Shaffer
or
Quinn
Shaffer
Steinbach
Fraley
Grubbs
Tucker
I'd take the 1st one 10 out of 10 times. Which one would you take? (Pit, please answer as well).
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I don't know that it's that black and white.
Pete probably hit close to the mark when noted how the Browns may view the situation. Are we better with Quinn and Necktie or with Frye and Thomas?
Here's betting they favor the former.............
I agree....I just didn't want to get into any real debate on the matter....not to mention I doubt Thomas is one of the top 3 players on our board.
Any way I factor it up, I don't see Thomas as the pick.......but I could be wrong. If we take him, great....I know he should become at least a good pro player
.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I do think Thomas is in our top 3.
To me it's Thomas or Quinn. They're both logical. You can throw Russell in there too but I don't like him as a prospect despite his physical skills.
Calvin Johnson, as much as I'm tempted to pick him, it'd be a real iffy pick for us.
I've been over the Adrian thing already...runningbacks are more dependent on their lines than QB's are.
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I didn't read through every reply .... but to me it seems that it comes down to one thing:
Is Brady Quinn a franchise QB? If he is seen as such, then we take him no ifs, ands, or buts.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Sorry Diam,won't be looking for your permission to compare our QB's to tackling dummies because it's a fair comparison. Won't be getting your permission to say they have pretty damned good chance of being the "next #1 patient at The Cleveland Clinic". Because the track record of QB's inthis town indicates the odds are pretty good of that happenning. Besides,you use the same kind of BS I do,and you never ask for my permission. So turn about is fair play. And you can spout off all you want Diam. The fact remains that having a good environment and blind side protection for a rookie QB is the optimum situation to breed success. There is NO legitimate arguement against that. It doesn't mean a QB CAN'T be successfull otherwise,but it greatly increases a rookies success rate and maturation process if he has some confidence level to work with and you know this. It is a legitimate point of contention that if you plan to invest highly in a rookie QB,that having your LT and running game in place,it takes pressure off of young QB's and makes their transition easier and smoother. You can advocate doing this either way,but one has fewer risks and better odds of success. And it's been proven to do so in many cases aross the NFL. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think you pretty well had it right to start with Diam,I don't need anybody speaking for me.  Do I believe the LT is the "sole reason our QB is getting killed"? No I don't. I believe they are what instill the most confidence in a QB and what keeps him from getting injured the most though. It's what the QB can't see that makes him "hear footsteps" that shake his confidence. The one's he can see coming he can prepare for,elude and minimize the hits. It's the one's he can't see coming that hurt him. The one's he can't prepare for. The one's he only sees in hind sight,from game tapes. Like I've said before Diam,winning won't solve it. All you need to do is look at 02 when we won nine games and went to the playoffs. Just look at the QB injuries and sacks that year. Running the ball alone won't solve it. Look at Rubens year in 05 and look at the QB sacks and injuries. If running the ball or wins solved the problem,what happenned in 02 and 05? I do understand that the OL is a unit. But that LT is the most critical key in in the development and well being of your QB. He's the one who makes your QB have confidence in "what he can't see". He's the one who stops those hits that most often injure your QB because he has no chance to prepare for hits he can't see coming.He is your QB's #1 security blanket. And no other position on the OL can fill that role.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
The line starts with the LT. What would you rather have:
QB - Frye
LT - Thomas
LG - Steinbach
C - Fraley
RG - Grubbs
RT - Shaffer
or
Quinn
Shaffer
Steinbach
Fraley
Grubbs
Tucker
I'd take the 1st one 10 out of 10 times. Which one would you take? (Pit, please answer as well).
I'd take the first one also.
But I don't see that scenario panning out.
The unfortunate reality is,we have a lot of needs. OL,DL,CB. And we simply don't have enough first day picks to address that.
You see,I feel like a lot of people do as in so much as...........If Savage sees Quinn as a *franchise QB* he will select Quinn. I can't say if Savage does or doesn't see him that way. But if he does,you can bank on Quinn being selected at #3.
Savage went LB in round 1 and 2 last year and stated he would make "major ugrades" in the OL much the same way he stated he would address LB last year,so anything can happen. But I don't see OL in round 1 and 2 IMO this year.
I would like to see the trenches built firs in this years draft and fill the skill positions next year. I think that's a very common sense approach to building a franchise.
But as some have eluded too,I think it will be a combination of two factors.
1. Where does Shaffer grade out in terms of necessaty. Which Savage has indicated won't be a long term solution at the position.
2. And does he see Quinn as pitching a shut out as a franchise QB.
I think those will be the deciding factor. I like your first scenario best. But even if we do land Thomas,I see other needs pressing in round 2 and three depending on the talent available in rounds 2 and three.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I don't really have a problem with Peterson as some do because i don't view his injuries as chronic type injuries.
He sprained a ankle and broke a collar bone.
...
Please don't forget the nagging shoulder in his freashman year that required surgery at the end of his freshman season Peen.
Three years,three injuries, Production less each year. I guess we don't see eye to eye on that being a red flag.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Before we go on too much about the Shaffer / Thomas selection, we need to go back and look at where the real problems of the OL last year were.
Shaffer - problem (still unresolved)
Andruzzi - problem (resolved with Steinbach)
Bentley - Fraley not a problem (and the return of LCB could be a big boost)
Coleman - problem (resolved with McKinney, and the potential of Friedman, Sowells, Matua and Smith)
Tucker - Dorsey / Butler not a problem with a healthy Tucker, a problem with Dorsey / Butler.
So going into the Draft the Browns have problems at LT, RG, and depth.
Questions -
will Shaffer play better, or is he better suited for RT. (if so look for Thomas to LT, Shaffer to RT and Tucker to RG)
will somthing emerge from the Matua, Sowells, and Smith development. (I hope so)
will LCB be able to play this year (this would be a big lift, and I could see him at RG with Tucker at RT).
will Dorsey and Butler even make the team. (Dorsey probably not, Butler probably so) and we could see another later round draft selection.
I guess this is a long way to say that the Browns draft will be based upon their confidence that the OL has been resolved. If we see a RB/QB picked, and no OG in round 2, that will be a sign that there is confidence that the OL has improved in areas other than Stenbach and Fraley.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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will Shaffer play better, or is he better suited for RT. (if so look for Thomas to LT, Shaffer to RT and Tucker to RG)
Let me be clear and concise about this. Shaffer will NEVER get better as a left tackle.
Left tackles are measured by foot speed and power, and Necktie will never be even average in either of those two categories as a left tackle. He's obviously suited better as a right tackle, and our organization has admitted as much, just not in so many words. To put it "in so many words" would be stOOpid 
That DOESN'T mean we're going to upgrade his position just because he's inferior. We could evaluate Frye as an inferior player at HIS position and upgrade THAT position, which would leave Necktie safe for another year.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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will Shaffer play better, or is he better suited for RT. (if so look for Thomas to LT, Shaffer to RT and Tucker to RG)
Let me be clear and concise about this. Shaffer will NEVER get better as a left tackle.
Left tackles are measured by foot speed and power, and Necktie will never be even average in either of those two categories as a left tackle. He's obviously suited better as a right tackle, and our organization has admitted as much, just not in so many words. To put it "in so many words" would be stOOpid
That DOESN'T mean we're going to upgrade his position just because he's inferior. We could evaluate Frye as an inferior player at HIS position and upgrade THAT position, which would leave Necktie safe for another year.
Why the F do you call Schaffer "Necktie"? I crack up every time you type that...is it cause of the holding tendancies or what?
That is too f'in funny.
[color:"white"]
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It's a very poor nickname on my part. Everytime I've seen him called for holding in a game, it's because an edge rusher has beaten him. Shaffer's best response has been to wrap his left arm around the poor dOOd's neck and pull, thus putting him in a "necktie." Sometimes he's called for it, sometimes not, but it's his last line of defense before letting the QB get hammered.
As a result, I've deemed him "Necktie" because it's the most common move I've ever seen him make (as sad as that is).
Hell, here's one where he's committing the ever-popular "hands to the face"
hands to the face.
And if I'd have saved the vid's, I could give the fans of Cleveland about 10 examples where he's wrapped his left arm around a guys neck just to keep Frye from getting killed.
Slow footspeed=bad left tackles, and with Phil Savage's proclamation where he said Necktie is our left tackle "for now" he indicted the boy to the point where he's not long for the position.
I hate to say it Mav, but there was a large contingent that said LJ Shelton was a "decent" left tackle too. Now that the Fish have him, he was demoted to guard for a guy that was released
Necktie belongs at right tackle if at tackle at all.........
By the way......go to bed bro. I just got home from the bar. You shouldn't be awake when I am. It can't be good for you
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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But Toad, he only gave up 3 1/2 sacks.
#gmstrong
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Well yeah, but what did he do in week 2............
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Actually that was only the first quarter of the Saints game.
#gmstrong
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***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I still don't see it as a chronic type deal.
I don't see a guy with zero injuries being a better bet than Peterson when it comes to the type of injuries....I am talking backs..
In looking at his highlight reels...the guy runs hard, and at OK....it looked like he ran alot. I think a bit of balance in the O would save him a bit as well. I doubt we would run him 30 times a game week after week.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Left tackles are measured by foot speed and power, and Necktie will never be even average in either of those two categories as a left tackle.
Just how quick were Doug Diekens feet, and how powerful was he Yet he always got the job done at LT.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Left tackles are measured by foot speed and power, and Necktie will never be even average in either of those two categories as a left tackle.
Just how quick were Doug Diekens feet, and how powerful was he Yet he always got the job done at LT.
How many "speed rush" specialists were in the league then GM? How fast was the average LB then?
The game has changed GM. And your example is the perfect one to show just how much. Dieken was powerfull but not terribly swift of foot.
That would never work in todays NFL. And the value and investment that it takes to get your hands on a true LT in TODAY'S NFL is clear evidence of it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Sorry Diam,won't be looking for your permission to compare our QB's to tackling dummies because it's a fair comparison.
*LOL* .. reading comprehension problems today bro?? never said a word about our QB's not being tackling dummies .. NEVER ... if i did show me where?? hell .. why would i argue that .. they were tackling dummies .. thats not debatable ..
what i called u out on and what is HORSECRAP is the fact its the LT's fault .. LT up until this point hasn't even been the major problem on these OL's ... thats where my beef with u is ..
and i must be right .. as u IGNORED that part all together .. and tried to change my argument to one u can win ... problem is I NEVER MADE THAT ARGUMENT OR even tried a little bit to refute that point ..
I made the debate WHY there tackling dummies .. u tried to change it to me saying there not tackling dummies .. *LOL* ... nice try bro ..
your LT assesment is BS based on the Browns since 99 ... and u know it ...
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The fact remains that having a good environment and blind side protection for a rookie QB is the optimum situation to breed success. There is NO legitimate arguement against that.
*LOL* .. well NO KIDDING ... breathing in and out helps to .. the BETTER the team is the BETTER chance the QB has to suceed ... i NEVER argued that .. all i did was call your blanket statements about the success of Palmer and Rivers being becasue the had good LT's BULLCRAP cause thats what they are ..
your amazing Pit ... i have said for years and even said in my post talking for U that LT IS THE ANCHOR OF THE OL .. and now u have no where else to go when i have you pinned against a wall so u resort to this crap?? your better than that Pit ..
U and I both know that LT is the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION on the OL .. never made that point ...
more in this next reply ...
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What are you talking about??? Tell me what system the Browns run now and have run in the past??? May as well been the single wing...    Jeff Garcia is the best QB the Browns have had since the teams return... Why would the Browns not run a version of the WCO offense when JG was here... He puts up starting NFL QB performances, even Pro-Bowl level performances in that system... There were people on here last year that said JG stunk and would choke and be a joke in Philly... They were the jokes... Most still are... 
The Browns have had no offensive identity since 1999 and have had no 0-Line, QB, RB, FB or WR talent that was a consistant threat and performer in the past 7 years...
Pick a topic you can speak to please...
What are YOU talking about?
It was WELL documented, VERY WELL DOCUMENTED that Garcia was pissed that we didn't run the WCO here and not have enough rollouts and bootlegs in our offense.
In fact, once we finally started tailoring the system to his strengths, he started playing better. MUCH better. Then he got hurt.
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I think you pretty well had it right to start with Diam,I don't need anybody speaking for me.
I thought you'd like that .. *LOL*
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I believe they are what instill the most confidence in a QB and what keeps him from getting injured the most though.
i agree with that to a certain extent Pit .... if your OL is decent and not a sieve then LT is definetly the position that is going to cause a QB the most consternation ... but with Our OL's the QB has never had that luxury ... there to busy worrying about the middle ... as well they should have been ..
and the middle of our line has been the reason our QB's get killed .. not the LT .. u could have out Pace or Ogden at LT for us and the QB's still would have had problems ... MAJOR PROBLEMS ..
we both know that LT is the key .. the cornerstone ... the hardest one to find ... but a bad LT ALONE isnt going to solve all your issues .. and we both know even a GREAT ONE wouldnt have much of a diff on our past teams ..
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Like I've said before Diam,winning won't solve it. All you need to do is look at 02 when we won nine games and went to the playoffs. Just look at the QB injuries and sacks that year.
Running the ball alone won't solve it. Look at Rubens year in 05 and look at the QB sacks and injuries. If running the ball or wins solved the problem,what happenned in 02 and 05?
*LOL* .. why u arguing that with me .. I'm not one of the dolts that EVER SAID ANYTHING REMOTLEY CLOSE TO THAT ..
but running would help .. we were not a good running team in 05 .. and we wertent a winning team in 02 either .. we had a winning record .. but thats far from being a WINNING TEAM .. we STUNK that year .., just we played alot of teams that were worse than us and we stood ALMOST INJURY FREE .. witch Is HUGE ....
anyhow I'm going in a different direction here .. back to topic ..
I never EVER MADE THOSE CLAIMS ... even though i do believe that BEING A GOOD RUNNING TEAM helps .. u dont ???
and this is why i'm CALLING U OUT .. your trying to tell me that evenw hen we rant he ball good because our LT STUNK our QB got hurt .. well our LT did STINK .. but the rest of the line STUNK TO .... and many of them STUNK WORSE THAN VERBS .. sorry but its true .. and thats BULLCRAP!!!!!!!
we've come along way with picking up Stieny and LA .... to bad La cant contribute .. if LA cant play .. were still going to have a WEAK ASS MIDDLE with everyones overblown hereo Hank and whoever plays RG ... and RT is a HUGE ?? MARK .. this OL will more than likely be the best we've had since our return but it will still be FAR BELOW AVG. AS IS ....
and LT actually has a shot to be our weak link ... but RG and RT could be right in there battling it out .. *LOL* ...
we still need MASSIVE UPGRADES at RG and LT .. and we need to upgrade RT weather Tuck is back or not and then we need LA back at center .. Hank is our 2nd best OLman right now .. and hes BELOW AVG. ....
Pit is u wanna argue that we need a new LT I'm right with U ..
if u wanna argue that LT is the 2ND MOST IMPORTANT POSITION ON O .. I'm right wsith ya ..
if u wanna tall me that Joe is a GREAT PICK ... i'm right with ya ..
but dotn try and tell me that LT is the reason why our QB's spend time at the clinic or why theyve STUNK .. cause there many other WAY MORE IMPORTANT factors for that ...
and i am way to INTELIGENT to believe that palmer and Rivers wouldnt' be succesful without Jones and McNeil .. again .. alot more IMPORTANT FACTORS GO INTO THAT ..
capiche bro???
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Jeff Garcia is the best QB the Browns have had since the teams return... Why would the Browns not run a version of the WCO offense when JG was here...
Because we had an inept front office and coaching staff. It has been well documented that Garcia was told we would switch to the WCO and we lied to him. I haven't slept so I might get my story a little confused. We did bring in a WCO guru but didn't listen to him and Butch either fired him or he quit. I vaguely remember talk about Walsh but that is kind of hazy. When Toad sees this he will clear it up with the proper names. He had it all documented with links.
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What Garcia proved is it's more to do in the system he plays in than anything else. He does not have what it take to run whatever system we were trying. In a west coast offense he has excelled.
That is what I said.
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He puts up starting NFL QB performances, even Pro-Bowl level performances in that system... There were people on here last year that said JG stunk and would choke and be a joke in Philly... They were the jokes... Most still are...
How is what I said inconsistant with your comments?
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Pick a topic you can speak to please...
Considering you think we ran the west coast offense I think you need to heed your own advice.
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When did the Browns run a WCO? When and where did I write that the Browns did? Is that what you said/wrote??? What system was it the Browns were runing when JG was QBing??? Get some sleep and we'll talk about it again once you're rested and have re-read or responces to each other. Take care, hang in and enjoy! Ammo, Bull crap! The Browns weren't tailoring the offense to suit JG's skill set or the other players as well.... WTHAYTA??? JG took off cause he had too much of the time... Just ask TC, KH, TD and CF... Show me the documentation??? I remember no flexibilty in offensive changes and limiting JG's ability to change plays and audible...
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When did the Browns run a WCO?
When and where did I write that the Browns did?
Is that what you said/wrote???
What system was it the Browns were runing when JG was QBing???
Get some sleep and we'll talk about it again once you're rested and have re-read or responces to each other.
Take care, hang in and enjoy!
Ammo,
Bull crap! The Browns weren't tailoring the offense to suit JG's skill set or the other players as well.... WTHAYTA??? JG took off cause he had too much of the time... Just ask TC, KH, TD and CF...
Show me the documentation??? I remember no flexibilty in offensive changes and limiting JG's ability to change plays and audible...
That's what I said. Terry Robiskie was an idiot, JG came here with the promise that Bill Walsh would advise Botch. Botch lied.
It was all over the papers in '04 that Garcia complained about not having enough rollouts and the offense not suited to his style of play. I know others remember this well.
I'm not saying the o-line didn't have a lot to do with his poor play, but he played noticeably better once Robiskie stopped being such an idiot.
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Ammo is right, Botch had stated that he was going to adjust the offense to fit Garcias style. and then did not follow through with actions.
Just another reason to dispise that bum.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Left tackles are measured by foot speed and power, and Necktie will never be even average in either of those two categories as a left tackle.
Just how quick were Doug Diekens feet, and how powerful was he Yet he always got the job done at LT.
If Shaffer played when Dieken was playing, he'd be one of the better left tackles in the league. Today, he's one of the worst.
Things have changed in the past 20 years.
Doug Dieken.........That the best you got?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Recently, there was a ton of film on Gene Hickerson,,, he played in a different time also, but I bet he could be successful today... Just a hunch..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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