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Thanks! Sorry for the tone... I thought I was going to have to start riding the short bus and taking my meds again...  
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Thanks! Sorry for the tone... I thought I was going to have to start riding the short bus and taking my meds again...
You're not??
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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The game has changed GM. And your example is the perfect one to show just how much. Dieken was powerfull but not terribly swift of foot.
That would never work in todays NFL. And the value and investment that it takes to get your hands on a true LT in TODAY'S NFL is clear evidence of it.
What has NOT changed about the game is that a offensive lineman can still be productive if he does not have the most god given talent *just like Dieken * Diek was not fast or strong. He was smart, and he had great technique. Why are there so many late round draft choices and undrafted O-lineman playing in the league today, and why have so many high round picks flopped? Because some of the guys with less talent have busted their arse and out worked the more talented guys. I have been one of the few around here to stand up for our mean looking less than gifted LT  because I still think he can improve enough to be an avg starting LT. It's one of the reasons I still want to trade down in this draft.
Now with that being said if we can't trade down, you know Thomas is still head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to my choice for our pick at number three.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Things have changed in the past 20 years.
Doug Dieken.........That the best you got?
Some things in football never change. Control the line of scrimmage, win the battle in the trenches, and you win more than you lose.
BTW whats wrong with Diek? We would all be drooling right now if we could plug in a LT who could do a hell of a good job, and nail down that position for over ten years.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I wonder how the Browns have graded Schaffer?
I guess if he graded poorly, Thomas will be the pick. If he graded well enough, Thomas won't be the pick.
LOL Peen. It amazes me how more people don't see through the facade. My guess is that it serves you well in the real world too.
Sorry, but I have to test the cardboard front. Couldn't we say that for every position? What if Savage doesn't take a QB? Does that mean that Savage has graded Frye favorably? LOL.........you kill me.
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I really don't think Thomas rates out top 3. I don't think there is any question Russell, Johnson, and Peterson rank higher on his board. Probably Quinn as well.
That isn't me talking from wanting any of those guys....just stuff I have read, looking at draft sites with player rankings...things like that. I think Thomas sits around 5 or 6 on our list.
I am trying not to let any personal opinion factor into how I feel our board might shape up.....just calling it how I see it.
Peen, this entire post is slanted by your personal opinion. Most of your posts have a strong personal opinion driving them. That's fine, but don't try and trick us.
Seriously..........I want to see all the sites and things you read that have Russell, Quinn, Johnson, and Peterson higher. And I really want to know where you are getting your information about Savage's board.
Peen, you don't know diddly-squat about Savage's board. That's not an insult, because I don't know nothin' about his board either, but don't make crap up and say you know about his board....because, you don't.
Your entire message is about who YOU want the Browns to take, but it's under the guise of you saying it isn't your personal opinion and not about who you want--or don't want--the Browns to take.
I don't mind differing opinions in the slightest, but when people resort to trickery and BS to further their points...........well, I just gotta say something.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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You can say what ever you wish GM. But the fact is,there were no Dwight Freeneys and "speed rush specialists" in Dieken's day. The bigger players were MUCH slower! I can't say the game has changed as much for G's,but even that has changed somewhat. Thr treaps and such have gotten more common and blocking schemes somewhat more complicated for them. OL's aren't just road graders anymore. The LT position has changed by leaps and bounds because of speed rush specialists and overall athletacism of oposing LB's and DL players. It's quite obvious. Now you talk about late round and undrafted players? Name those in the NFL at the starting LT spot and where they rate at their persective LT position then get back to me. You'll find very few legit. LT's in that bunch. Most are simply scrubs untill their teams can aquire a legit LT. I know ours is........... You talk about Diekens technique? Well,Shaffer doesn't HAVE any of that!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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i agree with that to a certain extent Pit .... if your OL is decent and not a sieve then LT is definetly the position that is going to cause a QB the most consternation ... but with Our OL's the QB has never had that luxury ... there to busy worrying about the middle ... as well they should have been ..
Are you dismissing the fact that it's the hits a QB CAN'T see coming that lead to the majority of his injuries? Are you claiming a hit you CAN see coming is as dangerous as one you CAN'T see coming? Is this your contention?
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and the middle of our line has been the reason our QB's get killed .. not the LT .. u could have out Pace or Ogden at LT for us and the QB's still would have had problems ... MAJOR PROBLEMS ..
There's no doubt that our QB would still have problems. I think it would take a moron to suggest otherwise. But you still seem to avoid the FACT that it's those hits our QB CAN'T see coming that are most serious and the most dangerous to his health. Which fits your arguement quite nicely but avoids the fact of the matter.
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we both know that LT is the key .. the cornerstone ... the hardest one to find ... but a bad LT ALONE isnt going to solve all your issues .. and we both know even a GREAT ONE wouldnt have much of a diff on our past teams ..
No,you seem to believe that,but I do not. I think the simple fact that every QB we've had has NEVER had confidence in his blind side being protected,may have made a HUGE difference in the development of both Couch and Frye. I think it effected Garcia GREATLY! Because despite what many assert,San Frans O and Philly's O are NOT the same!
Many QB's don't have GREAT OL's. But if you can protect them form what they CAN'T see,they can become confident. Does your QB having confidence in his blind side help in his development? I think so. Is a better developed,more confident QB make your team better? I think so.
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I never EVER MADE THOSE CLAIMS ... even though i do believe that BEING A GOOD RUNNING TEAM helps .. u dont ???
and this is why i'm CALLING U OUT .. your trying to tell me that evenw hen we rant he ball good because our LT STUNK our QB got hurt .. well our LT did STINK .. but the rest of the line STUNK TO .... and many of them STUNK WORSE THAN VERBS .. sorry but its true .. and thats BULLCRAP!!!!!!!
I think running the ball does help..................everything but your ............................
QB's blind side. THAT'S what gets him hurt! Blind hits and you know it. That's why YOU'RE being called out,not me. Or are you TRYING to *pretend* that the hits a QB CAN see are as dangerous as the one's he CAN'T see coming? That's what I thought...................
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we've come along way with picking up Stieny and LA .... to bad La cant contribute .. if LA cant play .. were still going to have a WEAK ASS MIDDLE with everyones overblown hereo Hank and whoever plays RG ... and RT is a HUGE ?? MARK .. this OL will more than likely be the best we've had since our return but it will still be FAR BELOW AVG. AS IS ....
Huge strides accept for protecting our QB. NOTHING has been done to help him. You know that as well as I do. We may have an oppertunity to fix that for over a decade. Unless you suggest that's not as important as the other upgrades we've made? I guess the QB getting blindsided shouldn't be considered a top priority? Because NOTHING you've mentioned will address that. No matter WHO our QB is,as long as those footsteps keep running through his mnd,won't develop properly and achieve his potential. But nah,let's just keep that on the back burner just like we have done since 99 and keep sending QB's to the Cleveland Clinic. That's done so well for us this far hasn't it?
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but dotn try and tell me that LT is the reason why our QB's spend time at the clinic or why theyve STUNK .. cause there many other WAY MORE IMPORTANT factors for that ...
I HAVE to tell you that first part yet again! It IS those blind side hits that get your QB hurt MOST OFTEN! He can't see them coming and can't prepare for them! He can see the other ones coming. He can prepare for them,avoid them and help take some of the impact out of them.
To suggest that those blind side hits to your QB AREN'T the ones that are most devistating from both an injury standpoint and in building confidence in your QB is absurd at best and the sad part is,you know that to be true.
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and i am way to INTELIGENT to believe that palmer and Rivers wouldnt' be succesful without Jones and McNeil .. again .. alot more IMPORTANT FACTORS GO INTO THAT ..
capiche bro???
I THOUGHT you were far too inteligent than to try to avoid the entire point of my post. I thought you were far too inteligent to try to say that the LT protecting his blind side isn't THE best single way to help instill confidence in your QB. I thought you were far too inteligent to try to dismiss the FACT that those blind side hits ARE the most dangerous to your QB.And I THOPUGHT you knew that this helped "speed the development" of QB's who DO have such blind side protection.
But I was wrong about just how inteligent I thought that you were.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Blind side hits cause a lot of QB's fumbles too. All QBs fumble at times when they get blind sided. More so than small hands.
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That would indicate that some of our most serious QB problems are directly connected with poor play on the part of our makeshift LT's.  How could that possibly be? Everybody knows our list of wounded at the position has had nothing to do with the LT! Just ask Diam!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Some things in football never change.
And some do. Speed, power, athletic ability, HGH (whoops, did I say that?) if Deik played today he'd get steamrolled. You can't compare today's players to the players of two decades ago.
Afterall, I can't think of many 6'6 250 pound left tackles...........
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Control the line of scrimmage, win the battle in the trenches, and you win more than you lose.
Irrelevent cliche #2 We're not comparing cliche's, we're comparing players and talking about Necktie Shaffer.
The film doesn't lie. The guy is a touch better than LJ Shelton, and Shelton is no longer a left tackle.
You're a good egg GM but the only real case you can make for Shaffer is based on your own personal opinion, which can't be quantified, especially by a player long gone who couldn't cut it at left tackle in today's NFL.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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not alot of time just a quick rebuttall .. Quote:
THOUGHT you were far too inteligent than to try to avoid the entire point of my post. I thought you were far too inteligent to try to say that the LT protecting his blind side isn't THE best single way to help instill confidence in your QB. I thought you were far too inteligent to try to dismiss the FACT that those blind side hits ARE the most dangerous to your QB.And I THOPUGHT you knew that this helped "speed the development" of QB's who DO have such blind side protection.
But I was wrong about just how inteligent I thought that you were.
there u go overestimating my intelligence again ... only a moron would do that .. *L* ..
bro .. a lit of our QB injuries off the top of my head ..
1. Smelly on a QB sneak ... broke his fibula on a play where he ran the ball ... and he snuck to the right .. not the left .. if that matters .. *LOL* ..
2. Timid hurts his thumb on a helmet in the Pit game .. he hurt his thumb on our own LG's helmet .. not being blindsided ..
3. Tims elbow ... his big injury that ended his career .. came from THROWING MOTION not our LT getting him blindsided ..
4. Fryes wrist injury ... no one knew he was hurt much less what play ot happend on ... but seeing as how he got way more pressure from the interior as opposed to from the LT spot .. ODDS ARE IT had nuttin to do with the LT ...
FACT OF THE MATTER IS PIT .... i dont believe one of our QB's injuries came from these DREADED BLIND SIDE HITS .. matter of fact I can't remember ONE SINGLE HIT this year coming from Frye or Anderson standing there and getting hit from the blindside without them knowing about it .. but I may be wrong .. maybe it ahppend once or twice or three times ALL YEAR .. and seeing as how they got hit conservatively 8 times a game .. thats a CONSERVATIVE FIGURE of 128 hits ... and u wanna blame there injuries on 3 of them that MAY NOT HAVE HAPPEND .. *LOL* ..
and Pssst ... how many times did our TE's or RB's help the LT out by DESIGN ... but lets just completely IGNORE THAT ..
your really reaching here bro .. and u are looking foolish doing it .. this is classic MOUNTAIN out of a MOLE HILL ..
u act like our QB's were sitting ducks once or twice a game with the rest of the OL doing there jobs and a LONE ASSASIN COMING IN UNTOUCHED from around the LT to decapitate our poor QB .. *L* ..
this is reaching to justify a point at its best ... and the sad part is ... u dont need to reach ... u have a very good argument without reaching .. your problem is that i have a better one .. 
at the end of the day Pit ... if we take Joe over BQ if their btoh available .. one of the reasons I'll be happy is for U and Vers .. cause I'll accept Joe over BQ and be happy with it .. where as U two will be upset and mad if it goes the other way ... and there really is no reason for that .. as BQ would be a GREAT PICK ALSO ..
and thanks bro .. u may be the first person to overestimate my intelligence in any aspect of life ... i appreciatte it ...
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matter of fact I can't remember ONE SINGLE HIT this year coming from Frye or Anderson standing there and getting hit from the blindside without them knowing about it
^^^^Proof that you don't watch the games.
Right off the top of my head I'll tell you to watch the 1st Quarter of the 1st Pittsburgh game. The Browns drove it right down the field, then Andruzzi completely whiffed on his man and Frye was drilled in the back and fumbled the ball. If you want to see a pathetic block then that's one example.
Oh, and another example would be in the 1st Cincinnati game when Frye was hit from behind before he could hand the ball off to Droughns, the guy came in from the left side of the line.
Those are two quick examples of plays where Frye was blindsided and fumbled the ball, both had everything to do with the O-Line not blocking on the left side and very little to do with Frye having small hands, a noodle arm or a French Fry Brain.
Draft Joe Thomas
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*L* ...... ya .. i dont watch the games .. what a dick statement to make .. i have all the games on Tivo 9except for the Saints game i believe .. ) .. i'll go watch and let u know what i saw .. 1. thats only 2 .. i said maybe it could have happend 3 times .. i'll also add up all the hits they took in those games .. and see what % of hits those blinsides were .. 2. in case u didn;t know Menza .... Druzzi is a gaurd .. not a LT .. so it doesn't count or help Pitts argument ... your MAKING MY POINT FOR ME .. thanks ... hey one dick statement deserves another ... 
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I don't think you get it..................again. Do I believe fixing our trenches and aquiring a franchise LT is the right way to go this year? Yes I do. When you look at the past lack of investment via the draft,while you may disagree,I think you can see my point. I think you build the foundation first which is the trenches. I don't believe Quinn is "the best QB in a decade" as I've heard proclaimed. I actually have Joe Thomas rated higher at the LT position than I do Quinn at the QB position. Now am I claiming to have the same opinion as Savage,or you for that matter? No I'm not. But I do think Charlie is a better QB than I believe Shaffer is a LT. And I think you need that anchor on your OL to help the development of any young QB of the future. I mean like it or not,once Mo left and Davidson took over,Charlie was 3-4 in his seven starts. Earth shattering? No. But a vast improvement in the win loss column without a running game. On the other hand,I see your scenario as quite plausible. And I wouldn't throw a fit if we DID draft Quinn. Actually,other than Thomas,I think Quinn would be our best option at #3. I would still be very aprehensive if we didn't come back to get a first day G,because this FO HAS TO show some strong signal that "they get it". But I can see both of these scenario's panning out. Johnson; No need. AP; Injury prone Russel; Just too many question marks With a good running game,it will help take some pressure off of your QB. And I think if Savage is 100% sold on the kid,he takes him. You won't hear any whining out of me about it. Now if he goes in another directiion besides Thomas or Quinn (unless he trades down) then I will have serious reservations about it. But you know as well as I do,that if we beef up our interior,they'll just go after Shaffer more on the edge and he's fast enough to deal with that. And how many times did our TE's or RB's help the LT out by DESIGN?? TOO damned many! Aren't TE's and RB's supposed to be doing other things besides having to cover your LT's ass? That's what I thought. But then again when you don't have a LT,you have to DESIGN plays that way. With the ability to run the ball and a good LT,you don't need to "design" plays that way. Everybody can do their own job at that juncture. I mean on blitz packages,sure you need extra blockers. But on four man fronts? Because we both know Shaffer needed help there too. I mean come on Diam,any way you slice it,those blind side hits DO make QB's shakey and they ARE the most devistating hits. Even though you danced around those facts.............yet again. The fact is,you could accept things my way and I can accept things your way. We just have them reversed in which order they should be done. And I think if they don't go one of these two ways,we'll both be left scrathcing our heads.......Ca Piche?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I don't think you get it..................again.
go see soupies definition of insanity .. maybe that'll help U ..
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Do I believe fixing our trenches and aquiring a franchise LT is the right way to go this year? Yes I do.
Me to .. as long as BQ's gone .. and even if he isnt .. I'll be THRILLED to get Joe .. and i'll say it here .. i want nuttin to do with a CB in rnd 2 .. i want the gaurd or a DLman .. last i checked CB wasn't a trench position ..
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When you look at the past lack of investment via the draft,while you may disagree
gimme a break .. play fair at least will ya .. bash me all u want with what i say ,. but don't LIE about it .. i been the leader of that band since before u got on the boards .. i hate that crap Pit .. its classless and we may disagree on some things .. but u always have shown to be a total class act .. please stay that way .. we'll break each others nuts all the time Pit .. and thats all good and we have alot of fun ... but what your doing here isn't funny or right ... 
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I think you build the foundation first which is the trenches.
who;s been at least your co-driver in that for the last 5 years??? (i'm looking for u to say me .. *L* ..) .. just because i say the QB (WHO TOUCHES THE BALL ON EVERY PLAY) is more important doesnt mean i have abonded my PHILOSOPHY and LONG TIME belief that football is won in the trenches ..
like i said Pit .. other than palmer and BQ is not one player i would have drafted in the last 5 years or in this draft over Joe .. thats hardly selling out or comprimising my beliefs ...
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I don't believe Quinn is "the best QB in a decade" as I've heard proclaimed. I actually have Joe Thomas rated higher at the LT position than I do Quinn at the QB position. Now am I claiming to have the same opinion as Savage,or you for that matter? No I'm not.
well what a shocker .. we disagree .. good thing i was sitting down for that one ..
and i can get on board with that .... i can admit theres many VERY GOOD REASONS to draft Joe .. i'm not close minded like some ...
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But I do think Charlie is a better QB than I believe Shaffer is a LT
I agree with that .. its irrelivent to me .. but i would agree with it ..
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And I think you need that anchor on your OL to help the development of any young QB of the future.
I would agree that the better the LT is the better chance there is for success and development .. i would also state that the MORE TALENT overall also increases the chance of success and development .. the better the ENTIRE OL increases a QB's chances .. the better the SKILL POSITIONS are is a positive ..
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I mean like it or not,once Mo left and Davidson took over,Charlie was 3-4 in his seven starts. Earth shattering? No. But a vast improvement in the win loss column without a running game.
I truely dont see your point here ... are u trying to tell me the OC is more important than the LT??? .. my guess is your point would more than likely be irrelivent to me in the context of this debate ..
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I would still be very aprehensive if we didn't come back to get a first day G,because this FO HAS TO show some strong signal that "they get it". But I can see both of these scenario's panning out.
I want to seea gaurd regardless of weather we get Joe or not .. if not a gaurd if we get Joe i want a DLman .. i want TRENCH PLAYERS in this draft and preferabble OLman .. with or w/o BQ or Joe ..
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Johnson; No need.
AP; Injury prone
Russel; Just too many question marks
I agree ... except with AP I'm more inclined to pass on him cause its alot easier to find RB's than it is QB's or LT's .. dont get me wrong .. his injuries play in at the #3 spot cause of the QUALITY or Joe,BQ and Calvin .. but if this were 2 years ago .. i would have been all over AP over Brey even with the injury history .. but this year the quality of the other is enough to knock AP out of our list .. then u add in position and its a no brainer ..
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With a good running game,it will help take some pressure off of your QB. And I think if Savage is 100% sold on the kid,he takes him. You won't hear any whining out of me about it. Now if he goes in another directiion besides Thomas or Quinn (unless he trades down) then I will have serious reservations about it.
I agree here 100% .. if Opie passes on BQ and/or Joe for Russell or AP .. it becomes Dopie as far as i'm concerned ...
WOW .. we agree an awful lot here .. maybe your as dumb as I am ..
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But you know as well as I do,that if we beef up our interior,they'll just go after Shaffer more on the edge and he's fast enough to deal with that.
i dotn believe that gonna be aproblem whtis year no matter who we take in rnd 2 .. our middle even with stieny is still pretty weak .. and if the RG we take in two is the starter .. gonna be lots of grwoing pains ..
and i may as well bring this up now .. if we dont draft joe i believe there is a real good chance we Stieny at LT ,... no ones talking about it .. but it very well may happen .. not saying that will be our solutiona nd problem solved .. just bringing up sumptin everyone is either unaware of or afraid to talk about .. and i HATE that idea ..
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Aren't TE's and RB's supposed to be doing other things besides having to cover your LT's ass? That's what I thought. But then again when you don't have a LT,you have to DESIGN plays that way. With the ability to run the ball and a good LT,you don't need to "design" plays that way. Everybody can do their own job at that juncture.
I didn't say I liked it or was happpy we have a LT we need to do it with .. *L* .. just pointing out a FACT to help rebuff your blindside killed the QB theory ....
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I mean on blitz packages,sure you need extra blockers. But on four man fronts? Because we both know Shaffer needed help there too. I mean come on Diam,any way you slice it,those blind side hits DO make QB's shakey and they ARE the most devistating hits. Even though you danced around those facts.............yet again.
I never said they didnt ... was busy trying to help u see the light .. *L* .. OK .. here goes .. yes blindside hits will be the most devastating a QB takes .. no doubt .. now will u have enough sense to admit that our QB's prolly take 99% of their hits knowing ful well there coming nd that blindside hits aren't a major reason our QB's are tackling dummies .. that them being tackling dummies is casued mainly by the INEPTNESS of the ENTIRE OL???
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The fact is,you could accept things my way and I can accept things your way. We just have them reversed in which order they should be done. And I think if they don't go one of these two ways,we'll both be left scrathcing our heads.......Ca Piche?
ya ... I capiche ...
i also dont reach like u do .. weather u admit that or not .. *L* .. I may overexxegarate a bit 9best QB in a decade comment may have been a EE BIT of an over exxegeration .. .. ) ..
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Diam and Pit: Good stuff. I enjoyed reading it. You guys are debating, but I'm not sure you are disagreeing too much. That's a good thing, btw. I think you are both taking your arguments to extremes, so...as always, I'll stay neutral and try to smooth things over. Pit------we have needed a LT for years. Verbs was better than a lot of people thought. In fact, he played pretty good in the playoff year and the next two years. He wasn't a true LT though. However, he was the best we've had. Sad, huh? With that said, I think you are reaching quite a bit in putting so much blame on the LT when you talk about the injuries of our QBs. While the poor LT play has hurt the team, I don't know if..........wait...........I know that most of the injuries were not directly related to the poor play of the LTs. I also think you can get a QB before you get a LT. There is no rule. I do know that you need both---that is.......a good QB and a good LT. Diam---------You are wrong about our QBs not getting blind sided this year. They did. And it was more than 3 times. You are also discounting Shaffer's holding penalties that took away big plays and how many times our QB had to scramble or throw the ball away because Shaffer sucked. And here is the big one............I know for a fact that Shaffer repeatedly asked Andruzzi for help. It happened on almost every pass play. Bro, that's huge. It compromised the rest of the line. It also didn't do much for things in the locker room. And while some may say that players don't need to get along....it's pretty important for the offensive line to be able to trust each other. Believe me.........Shaffer was a huge problem this year and it drives me nuts when people on this board say he is an average to above average LT. I know you ain't saying that, but others can interpret it that way. I also gotta tell you that Shaffer hurt the offense because he DID get so much help from TEs and RBs. Diam, this team ran more Bunch and Jumbo formations than any pro team I've seen in years. Why? Because the OL was so putrid, and Shaffer was a big part of that. I would say .....the biggest reason. We draft Joe and a lot of that changes. We can run multiple formations, just like a real professional team. *L* We won't need to give him nowhere near as much help. We put him out there all by his lonesome and take our chances. At least we'll have a chance. If we did that w/Shaffer.......we'd have zero chance. That's been proven. You are smart enough to know that having a LT who can play on an island changes a lot of what this offense can do. One thing I want for you both to consider. The Brown's opponents often rushed 4 players and dropped 7 into coverage. That's makes it tough to throw. It's tough on a young QB and and inexperienced receivers. It's one of the reasons Cutt got so much time this year, but that's another story. Anyway.......think about 3 reasons why teams were able to drop 7 into coverage and still be able to stop the run. 1. The RBs were so bad that they couldn't hit the holes? 2. The QB couldn't check into the right play? 3. The OL was so freaking bad that they couldn't open up holes or protect the QB even when the opponent rushed 4 guys? Obviously, all were factors. Rate them.......percentage wise. I have some thoughts on it, but I think you guys could teach me something here.........and I'm all for that. 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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Geez Diam,, sounds like you and Pit agree an awful lot for a couple of guys seemingly ready to rip each others throats out........ 
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Geez Diam,, sounds like you and Pit agree an awful lot for a couple of guys seemingly ready to rip each others throats out........
We have to sound like that! It's good for ticket sales.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Pit, and Toad I don't have time for a proper response right now, but I will get back with both of you in the morning.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Geez Diam,, sounds like you and Pit agree an awful lot for a couple of guys seemingly ready to rip each others throats out........
Best as I can make out of it Damon.............
He thinks Quinn is the best thing since sliced bread or he would want Thomas too. I don't think Quinn is the best thing since sliced bread so I prefer Thomas.
He thinks Thomas is the second best pick accept for Quinn. And I think Quinn is the best second best pick with the acception of Thomas.
Other than that,we pretty much agree.
And yes Verse,having a LT with enough talent to play alone on an island greatly increases what you can do in openning up your offense. It gives you more formations you can set up in when you have players doing their natural playing rolls rather than helping out your LT.
When you're RB is covering for your LT.he can't be the outlet reciever for your QB if he gets in trouble., On a two TE set,you can have TWO TE's running routes,instead of one running a route and one covering for your LT.
You have five on your OL and one QB. That leaves five offensive targets. Every time you take one of those targets out to compensate for a weakness elsewhere,you are limiting your weapons. This should only be necassary on blitzes,not when the D brings four.
That should be obvious to everyone. We have one extra guy blocking when they send 4. The result? They have seven guys covering our four remaining weapons. That doesn't spell success for any QB.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I gotta tell you,, I don't know who wants who anymore.. I very confused by all of the bull that gets slung around Let me say this about my desires on Draft day.. There are 5 so called top candidates. Quinn, Russell, Thomas, Peterson and Johnson (in no particular order).. No matter how we slice it,, if we don't trade down, we are gonna get a good or excellent player. In essence, I don't think we can really lose! Any one of those guys would be an upgrade to what we have.. Quinn and Russell might take a year to develop if we are smart about it.. Not that either would need it, but it's smarter to do it that way. Johnson would probably have a big impact and so would Peterson. All four of those guys are sexy picks in my eyes...... Thomas isn't the sexiest pick,, but to me, he's the one that is another block in the foundation.. For this year, I go with Thomas...
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i want nuttin to do with a CB in rnd 2 .. i want the gaurd or a DLman .. last i checked CB wasn't a trench position ..
Now what are you going to do? That's exactly what I want in round 2 and I want to stay very far away from a CB. You have to re-think that because "I don't know anything about football," and we agree
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You are wrong about our QBs not getting blind sided this year. They did. And it was more than 3 times.
I dont agree Vers ... maybe we have different definitions of being blindsided .. but there is no way i am wrong using my definition .. NO WAY ..
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You are also discounting Shaffer's holding penalties that took away big plays and how many times our QB had to scramble or throw the ball away because Shaffer sucked.
No I'm not .. all i am trying to do is destroy the myth are QB's get blindsided every other play ... when Shaff holds or tackles his guy .. he cant blindside Chalrie ... now can he??
your taking what i'm saying and extending it to me saying i'm trying to make a point .. i am not DEFENDING SHAFF ... he STINKS ... I said that the day we signed him .. i said hopefully he can play RT of gaurd .. well hes worse than i thought .. we will move him to one of those spots in the near future .. but hes GONNA STINK THERE TO ..
read what i say and keep it in context ... dont expand on it .. i am fully aware of all of shaffs weaknesses and how they affect our TEAM ..
the rest of the speel about Shaff and what happens if we draft Joe i would ASSume is for the rest of the drones .. cause i understand and have said the same things many times on both counts ..
oh .... and Shaff was the reason we needed to help the LT so often ... but he as by far not the worsed OLman on our team .. Coleman and Druzzi were as bad as any two we've ever had since our return ..
yes .. Shaff is BRUTAL .... no doubt ,,,, but Druzzi and Coleman and whoever the sluf of the week was at Rt were BRUTALER ...  ..
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One thing I want for you both to consider. The Brown's opponents often rushed 4 players and dropped 7 into coverage. That's makes it tough to throw. It's tough on a young QB and and inexperienced receivers. It's one of the reasons Cutt got so much time this year, but that's another story. Anyway.......think about 3 reasons why teams were able to drop 7 into coverage and still be able to stop the run.
1. The RBs were so bad that they couldn't hit the holes?
2. The QB couldn't check into the right play?
3. The OL was so freaking bad that they couldn't open up holes or protect the QB even when the opponent rushed 4 guys?
Obviously, all were factors. Rate them.......percentage wise. I have some thoughts on it, but I think you guys could teach me something here.........and I'm all for that.
#3 = 95%
#1 = 2.5%
#2 = 2.5%
not many holes for the RB's to hit reduces their % .. and not many plays to audible into where the OL not blocking makes it a good play .. so that knocks that down to 2.5% ...
learn anything??? *L* ..
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I dont agree Vers ... maybe we have different definitions of being blindsided .. but there is no way i am wrong using my definition .. NO WAY ..
If your definition of being blind-sided is one of those highlight hits where the DE or OLB lifts the QB off his feet and pile-drives him into the turf....then you may have a chance. But, my definition of being blind-sided is more practical. Thus, you're wrong.
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the rest of the speel about Shaff and what happens if we draft Joe i would ASSume is for the rest of the drones .. cause i understand and have said the same things many times on both counts ..
I was just trying to keep things real.
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yes .. Shaff is BRUTAL .... no doubt ,,,, but Druzzi and Coleman and whoever the sluf of the week was at Rt were BRUTALER .
Yeah, they might have been. And you know what, bro.....there are still people like Peen on here who think that the Browns have done enough for the OL this year. The OL needs upgraded big-time........and the best way to do that is to take Joe. Deep in your heart......you know that is true.
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#3 = 95%
#1 = 2.5%
#2 = 2.5%
not many holes for the RB's to hit reduces their % .. and not many plays to audible into where the OL not blocking makes it a good play .. so that knocks that down to 2.5% ...
learn anything??? *L* ..
LOL............ Yeah, you're better at math than spelling.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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1. The RBs were so bad that they couldn't hit the holes?
2. The QB couldn't check into the right play?
3. The OL was so freaking bad that they couldn't open up holes or protect the QB even when the opponent rushed 4 guys?
Obviously, all were factors. Rate them.......percentage wise. I have some thoughts on it, but I think you guys could teach me something here.........and I'm all for that.
I know I have no dog in this race, and you didn't ask me anyway...lol...but I'll give you my 2 cents anyway...lol.
3. 90
1.10
2. 0
I would like to add a couple of observations of my own there though.......
1. The OL was putrid last year anyone with a clue could understand that, but what your talking about had alot more to do with the interior than anything Shaffer did...........and no I'm not defending him, becuase you know I think he sucks. Our interior laid down quicker than Paris Hilton on most passing plays last year, and thus CF never had a chance to see a pocket on most plays much less throw from one........imo that had alot to do with the reason we saw 7 man coverages........nothing resembling a pocket. I can live with Quinn or Joe and won't be pissed with either like we've discussed, but if we don't backup EITHER pick with a OG in round 2 or 3 then I'll be pissed and call Opie Dopie. I want the interior fixed this year................I'm not neive enough to believe we can fix the OL, get a good QB, RB, and CB in one draft, but I know a 2nd round pick of an OG accompanied with ES and hopefully a healthy La in 08 would solidify this OL. I want to replace KS as bad as anyone, but if we take Joe and don't back that up with an OG then I'll be pissed off more than not taking Joe in round 1. If you give me an interior that can actually form and hold a pocket then you at least give you QB a chance to develop............something we haven't done since rebirth.
2. Droughns sucked BADLY. As much as some will deny it.....cough.....cough....Toad...cough.......cough....when we had a hole he didn't get through it more times than not. We will have a better running game by default, becuase at least we'll have someone who can actually hit a friggin hole.............just not much better...lol.
3. Bro Charlie couldn't check out of a play from what I've read becuase Moe wouldn't let him...lol.......so I guess that should be a 90-10 split....lol.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Quote:
1. The RBs were so bad that they couldn't hit the holes?
2. The QB couldn't check into the right play?
3. The OL was so freaking bad that they couldn't open up holes or protect the QB even when the opponent rushed 4 guys?
Obviously, all were factors. Rate them.......percentage wise. I have some thoughts on it, but I think you guys could teach me something here.........and I'm all for that.
3. 70 percent, too many times the D was able to get pressure with 4, and drop into coverage.
1. 15 percent, the reality of the situation is that Droughns was hurt last year, and without a viable backup, Cleveland running game was ineffective.
2. 15 percent, and I need to pull the card that part of the problem, as became apparent, was that some of the players were not running the proper routes. Still Frye needs to improve. A good number of times, Frye was checking into the dump down play, which is explained by the 63 percent completion percentage and the terrible 6.4 yard/attempt.
Last edited by ChargerDawg; 04/16/07 10:25 PM.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Thanks for the read GM! I kind of liked this part the best................ "The April draft will add to the list of first-round left tackles because as many as five tackles could be taken that early. Miami's Bryant McKinnie and Texas' Mike Williams are expected to be top 10 selections. Arizona State's Levi Jones vaulted into the first round with a solid showing at the Senior Bowl. Florida junior Mike Pearson might sneak into the round after a solid combine. Auburn's Kendall Simmons, who is considered a tackle by some teams, a guard by others, also could go in the first round." Wonder what happenned to all of those Mike Pearson pimps? Sort of like the old "Where Are They Now" shows from the 70's! They're STILL giving me grief over who I pimp at LT GM. Even pimping McNeill last year didn't teach them anything!!!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Well thanks to you and Toad, you two made my stubburn old arse spend three hours researching left tackles and have given me a change of heart. Many of the guys I remembered as late round picks were really late 1st, early second or even third round picks. It's shocking how many tackles who were taken between rounds four and round seven were total flops, and unknowns  I am now on the Thomas bandwagon and hope he is still there rather than wanting the Browns to trade down.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Don't get me wrong GM. It's not "impossible" to get a LT in the later rounds,just VERY unlikely! And when our team gets to the point that we can "afford to experiment",I would love to see us take a flyer on a fourth of fifth round OT. I mean if we had a Joe Tomas,we would be set at the position for a decade or more. At that juncture,we could afford the option of taking a flyer on a couple over the next five to seven years and hope one develops. That would be a great position to be in. But IMO,at our status,we can't afford to gamble right now.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I know I have no dog in this race, and you didn't ask me anyway...lol...but I'll give you my 2 cents anyway...lol.
3. 90
1.10
2. 0
All are free to join in on the "Blame Game" It's interesting to see who people consider to be the cause of one of our biggest problems.
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3. Bro Charlie couldn't check out of a play from what I've read becuase Moe wouldn't let him...lol.......so I guess that should be a 90-10 split....lol.
Well.....perhaps Mo didn't allow him to because he sucked at it? But, it's a moot point. The Brown's QBs did not audible. It had to have an affect on the offense. Charger brought up an interesting point......the post-snap reads are very important too.
Anyway...........my thinking is more in line w/Charger on who was to blame:
OL: 68%
RB: 20%
QB: 12%
Thus far, I gave the lowest percentage to the OL and I know what the implications of the "Blame Game" are. What do you guys think they are? And how do the Browns go about fixing it?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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Well,it's all too obvious isn't it? Fix the damned OL!!!!!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Actually, Vers, Dilfer wasn't allowed to audible, either. I doubt it was because Charlie "sucked" at it.
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Actually Coach........it is irrelevant to the question. The question is why were the Browns not able to run the ball effectively and protect their QB when the opposing defenses typically rushed 4 guys and dropped 7 into coverage. Stay on track, please? 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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Well thanks to you and Toad, you two made my stubburn old arse spend three hours researching left tackles and have given me a change of heart. Many of the guys I remembered as late round picks were really late 1st, early second or even third round picks. It's shocking how many tackles who were taken between rounds four and round seven were total flops, and unknowns I am now on the Thomas bandwagon and hope he is still there rather than wanting the Browns to trade down.
Amazing, isn't it?
Left tackle is actually one of the easiest (that's a relative term, hehe) positions to evaluate. In today's NFL, it doesn't take a really good scout to determine that a guy has the feet and/or power to be a good LT.
Now sometimes they overvalue a guy because of exceptional feet ('Brick is the perfect example, and I'll always maintain he'll only be a very average LT, if that), but for the most part, left tackles that are good are taken early.
Someone on the board admitted changing their minds. I'm going to faint *L* You're a better man than I
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Thus far, I gave the lowest percentage to the OL and I know what the implications of the "Blame Game" are. What do you guys think they are? And how do the Browns go about fixing it?
u sign stieny in FA ... GOOD START ...
u upgrade wherever u can with guys like dude from the fish .. there are all u can do small upgrades while u try and get the final solutions ..
u DRAFT OLman on Day 1 ... if we can get Joe he would be a GREAT START ...
the DRAFT A GAURD in rnd 2 unless theres a DLman that blows u away ,..
then u pray that La comes back next year and UPGRADE wherever u can in FA and then look at LT's if we dotn get Joe this year early next and look at gaurds in 2 or 3 ..
u DRAFT them on day 1 and upgrade when possible via FA .. with the bulk coming in the draft ..
with that said ... we draft BQ if hes avaiable .. PERIOD .. u dont pass on a franchise QB ..
Joe would go along way towards fixing the OL .. NO DOUBT .. well BQ would go a long way towards fixing the QB position ... both will go along way towards fixing the TEAM ... a QB does more .. there WAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN LT'S ... so u grab the QB when u can ... guys like Pace/Ogden/Bosselli dont come along often .. and Joe will more than likely end up there .. THERE HARD TO FIND ... well guys like Manning/Palmer dont come along often either ... there HARD TO FINE AND MORE VALUABLE ...
so i agree with your point .. but BQ is still the best pick for this team ... but if we get stuck with Joe .. that'll be OK to ..
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u sign stieny in FA ... GOOD START ...
u upgrade wherever u can with guys like dude from the fish .. there are all u can do small upgrades while u try and get the final solutions ..
u DRAFT OLman on Day 1 ... if we can get Joe he would be a GREAT START ...
the DRAFT A GAURD in rnd 2 unless theres a DLman that blows u away ,..
then u pray that La comes back next year and UPGRADE wherever u can in FA and then look at LT's if we dotn get Joe this year early next and look at gaurds in 2 or 3 ..
u DRAFT them on day 1 and upgrade when possible via FA .. with the bulk coming in the draft ..
This part of your essay rates an A+.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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but if we get stuck with Joe .. that'll be OK to ..
Stuck? While I'm not in the mood to get into the debate you guys are having, IMO being "stuck" with Thomas doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
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And here is the big one............I know for a fact that Shaffer repeatedly asked Andruzzi for help. It happened on almost every pass play. Bro, that's huge. It compromised the rest of the line. It also didn't do much for things in the locker room. And while some may say that players don't need to get along....it's pretty important for the offensive line to be able to trust each other. Believe me.........Shaffer was a huge problem this year and it drives me nuts when people on this board say he is an average to above average LT. I know you ain't saying that, but others can interpret it that way.
How do you know this? I've never heard this except from you. You may be right, but prove it. I'm inclined to believe Andruzzi needed Shaffer's help.
Still, that is a bold statement, and I believe you owe us proof.
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How can he give you proof?
You start dropping names and those names stop dropping information.........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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