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So Auburn that lost to a mediocre LSU team,
This is where your argument breaks down.. LSU, by record, is comparable to Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska... anybody think those teams are really about the same? LSU, by previous years standards, is mediocre, they are probably still the 2nd best team in most other conferences. In the ACC they would probably beat Duke and I bet they would give Clemson all they could handle.. same in the Big 10 for Michigan State, Wisconsin, etc.. or the Big 12 with Baylor and Texas or the Pac 12 with Oregon and Arizona State..
And yes, he's allowed to think Stanford is better.. he's not arguing that they deserve a chance in a playoff, just that they are better....
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Say what you want about OSU, but they don't lose, that's what makes them the best team.
I seem to recall years where the Big 10 was better with a couple top 10s and a couple other top 25s when OSU fans used the strength of schedule argument the other way when it came to where 1 and 2 loss teams belonged in the rankings. Winning is important, actually beating good teams is also important.
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I'd really like to see Duke beat FSU to put Missouri in the title game, because even if Ohio State beats FSU, they'll still find a reason to trash the Buckeyes. That could set up the dominoes for the B1G to go 3-1 against the SEC in Bowl season.
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Jan. 1 Gator Jacksonville Michigan (Big Ten No. 5) vs. Georgia (SEC) could be a B1G win with Murray out.
Jan. 1 Outback Tampa Iowa (Big Ten No. 3) vs. Texas A&M (SEC) This could be an epic disaster for the B1G. Iowa finished strong, but I'd probably rather see Penn State here.
Jan. 1 Capital One Orlando Auburn (SEC No. 2) vs. Wisconsin (Big Ten No. 2) could also be a B1G win
Jan. 6 Ohio State (B1G) v. Missouri (SEC) -- I like Missouri a lot, but I think Ohio State beats them.
I absolutely love the possibility about Mizzou and it would be great to see that game, but I think the Buckeyes would immediately not get full respect for that win either because the Tigers have generated the least amount of buzz of any top10 team in recent memory.
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I'm sorry that the strain of them facing some hard teams made them lose. They probably shouldn't be playing in the National Championship game, because it might be too strenuous for them.
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Cleve.. Quote:
because even if Ohio State beats FSU, they'll still find a reason to trash the Buckeyes.
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but I think the Buckeyes would immediately not get full respect for that win either because the Tigers have generated the least amount of buzz
Please stop with the pre-emptive whining......  Outside of Mark May, who I will admit is pretty obnoxious about it, the rest of the media does not hate OSU.. questioning their strength of schedule is a perfectly legitimate point to make.. .
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no doubt.
also, it would make an interesting matchup since the Big10 refused to allow Mizzou entrance to the conference even though they made geographical, academic, monetary, and athletic sense for the conference. I am still puzzled by that decision.
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no doubt.
also, it would make an interesting matchup since the Big10 refused to allow Mizzou entrance to the conference even though they made geographical, academic, monetary, and athletic sense for the conference. I am still puzzled by that decision.
They wanted Maryland so nobody would ever have to fight the strength of schedule argument ever again. 
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I'm sorry that the strain of them facing some hard teams made them lose. They probably shouldn't be playing in the National Championship game, because it might be too strenuous for them.
Ohio State should be in the BCS Title game.
I'm really not sure how many times I have to say that.
That doesn't mean I believe they're one of the two best teams in the country, though.
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no doubt.
also, it would make an interesting matchup since the Big10 refused to allow Mizzou entrance to the conference even though they made geographical, academic, monetary, and athletic sense for the conference. I am still puzzled by that decision.
They wanted Maryland so nobody would ever have to fight the strength of schedule argument ever again.
and Rutgers. don't forget the Scarlet Knights!
actually, I think the issue with Mizzou was that they do not have red in their uniforms. Nebraska, Rutgers, Maryland. The Big10 must add all the red they can from across the country.
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Actually both Maryland and Rutgers were business decisions. By bringing in Rutgers, they get the Jersey/NY/Philly area viewers. Maryland -DC/Va area.
Georgia Tech was at one point believed to be one of the teams b/c of the Ga/Atlanta area.
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understood. and, they were also to help get into recruiting hotbeds as well.
but, Mizzou doesn't exactly lack in being a business decision either (StL + KC markets)
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We understand that. Plus, you never know what you are going to get... I seriously doubt that the SEC contemplated Missouri in the championship game in football in their second year.. this was a middle of the road Big 12 team for a long time... which, by the way, either speaks to how well Missouri was able to recruit once joining the SEC or it speaks to the fact that the SEC isn't quite as good as people think it is.. you decide. Florida State, Miami, Va Tech were supposed to make the ACC a powerful football conference, hasn't worked out that way most years.... I will give Va Tech credit for holding up their end of that deal for a long time though..... Maryland brings the DC market, a potentially very good basketball program, a football program that should be a lot better than it is, and they are very good at the non-revenue sports like mens and womens soccer, womens basketball, wrestling, lacrosse, women's field hockey.. I'm not sure what Rutgers brings other than a bunch of nappy... ok, nevermind. 
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which, by the way, either speaks to how well Missouri was able to recruit once joining the SEC or it speaks to the fact that the SEC isn't quite as good as people think it is.. you decide.
I said a similar thing about Missou and A&M being immediately relevant within the SEC after joining.
Also, wasn't Nebraska competing for conf championships in the Big XII while these two teams were just OK before they all shipped out?
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Could have sworn that Mizzou refused the B1G and not the other way around.
I don't really remember...
Or it was that they were working on getting ND... and they wanted to bring both Nebraska and Mizzou in. But when ND declined the B1G decided to only offer Nebraska... with the intention of bringing in Mizzou on the next wave....
... and that's when the SEC decided to make their move.... they knew that A&M wanted out... and they also brought in the other disgruntled Big XII school...
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you have your timelines off there. we already had Nebraska.
SEC made a play for A&M. They wanted an even number of teams, so they made a play for Mizzou as well, but Mizzou put them off for awhile because they were trying to use that as leverage to get into the Big10. Big10 refused and Mizzou joined the SEC.
it was around the same time that the Pac12 was making a play for Texas, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State, but A&M going to the SEC messed things up because the Pac12 didn't want TxTech. They still might have done the deal, but the BigXII was able to cobble together an agreement to keep things going (basically gifting Texas a way of keeping their Longhorn Network money).
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I can tell you this, if OSU or FSU were in the SEC, both would have at least one loss, and I have no reservation in saying that.
So, what you're saying is: If OSU or FSU were in the sec, they'd at worst be tied for first in the sec? Is that right? I mean, I think every sec team has at least one loss, right?
Possibly so. I never said OSU was a bad team. They are a very good team. Sorry if I gave the impression otherwise. Possibly you are mixing my comments with the comments of others.
I am saying I don't think the Big 10 is a really good conference....and that hurts OSU.
I read crazy stuff from some people like if you don't win your conference you can't be the best team and should have no shot at the BCS title. That's total crap. Lot's of one loss teams are better than conference champions. If OSU somehow lost to Mich St this week, OSU would still be a better team and ranked higher.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think we're both correct... When PAC-12 couldn't get Texas and CO... they invited Utah and CU... That's when B1G invited Nebraska. (I do remember rumors that they were targeting Mizzou and Nebraska) And that summer of insanity was mostly done... Also there was preliminary talks about A&M moving to SEC... And then the next summer... SEC decided to start their own Expansion... But Mizzou probably wanted in the B1G... and used SEC for leverage. In any case... it's old news.... Hey look what I found on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/v/eatVvW11Rz8
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I disagree on the ranked higher portion. If Sparty beats OSU, then I'd expect them to rise up to #5 or so and the Buckeyes to be behind them.
Now, I do think that after watching the Iron Bowl that Bama is better than Auburn but the Tide simply got out-coached (ducking from Saban). part of the game though.
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Not sure where the Spartans are ranked, but I wouldn't do it that way, simply because I KNOW OSU is better than MSU.
They are.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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If that happened, they'd both be 12-1, with MSU beating OSU.
Why would you rank Michigan State behind?
I KNOW The U team that Ohio State beat was better than OSU that year.
They were.
But Ohio State was #1 because they won the game.
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As i said.....I understand the reasoning.....I didn't realize MSU has only 1 loss.
I haven't been a good college football fan this year. The Gators pretty much are back to Zook days, so my interest is diminished. I just watch the SEC game of the week on CBS plus a few here and there.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Yeah, Michigan State is ranked 10th.
It's a good chance for OSU to shut down the talk about how they didn't play anyone.
If they lose, they're pretenders, and I'd rather see FSU, Auburn, Missouri, etc.
If they win, they deserve a crack at it.
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Just posting b/c it's an interesting article. Not posting to flame the SEC, just figured it fit in with the conversations and debates. Would've pasted it but just thought it would take up too much space. "Why SEC isn't as great as you think"
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I agree with parts of that article, but the BCS portion is largely suspect. Outside of last season (when Bama getting in over OkieState was wrong), the SEC really didn't get gifted any national championship slots.
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Outside of last season (when Bama getting in over OkieState was wrong)
Do you mean 2 seasons ago?
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The point is that the system is rigged from the beginning because of totally random preseason rankings...
Let's take a hypothetical... this season, Ohio State was preseason #2, Northwestern was preseason #22, and Wisconsin was preseason #23... that was it for the Big 10..
Alabama was #1, Georgia #5, South Carolina #6, Texas A&M #7, Florida #10, LSU #12
So Texas A&M, for example, is 8-4 and still ranked at #22.. Iowa Nebraska, and Minnesota are all 8-4 and nobody would even think any of them deserve to be ranked... why? Because they haven't played all of these other ranked teams... the other teams are only ranked because of some preseason perception of how good they might be...
If the season had played out exactly as it did with all the same teams winning all the same games except... the preseason polls had OSU at #2, Michigan State at #6, Wisconsin at #9, Iowa at #11... nobody would be questioning whether OSU deserves to be in the national championship game... everybody would have still beaten all the same teams, but because of preseason perception and expectation, they are viewed as the lesser team...
Similarly, in the SEC, if Auburn, Alabama, and Missouri were top 10, South Carolina was #12, LSU was #18 but Florida, Texas A&M, and Georgia were unranked.. all of the sudden the strength of schedule doesn't look any more imposing than Ohio States.. the 11-1 teams should still be highly ranked but there is no way they would be talking about leapfrogging one of them over Ohio State..
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Just posting b/c it's an interesting article. Not posting to flame the SEC, just figured it fit in with the conversations and debates. Would've pasted it but just thought it would take up too much space.
"Why SEC isn't as great as you think"
Great article. I've often thought about the concept of why LSU getting beat by Auburn, as an example, is lauded as "well the SEC is a meat grinder". Yet if Wisconsin loses to Michigan State it's because "the B1G is weak". Just doesn't seem to be a lot of equality in the thought process.
I wonder if Misouri had been dropped into the B1G this season, where would they be ranked? Same players, different bias.
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Peen has answered that question before... I asked and to his credit, he answered...
Parity in every conference but the SEC means mediocrity, parity in the SEC means excellence.. that is the perception.
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I'm sorry, but when I watch Ohio State play, I don't see a top team in the country.
If you do, that's fine. But I see an offense that is one dimensional, as Braxton has limited ability throwing the football. I'll give you the run game is outstanding, no arguments here on that. I see a defense that has given up 24+ points in 6 games, 30+ points in 4 games, and over 40 points to Michigan.
I see a good, not elite, football team.
I understand what you're saying, and if I'm being completely honest, I'm not even sure this is the best Buckeyes team in the last 5 years. It's not as good as the Troy Smith team with Wells and Ginn and Gonzales and, yes, Robiskie.
I just wonder if you realize how condescending it seems when you say "Yeah, they deserve to be in the national championship game, but they're not a top 5 team."
Four questions:
If they get there, and they beat FSU, are they a top-5 team?
If they get there, and they beat FSU without Jameis Winston, are they a top-5 team?
If they get there, and they beat Missouri, are they a top-5 team?
If they get there, and they beat Auburn, are they a top-5 team?
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Right or wrong, the perception comes from the "eye-test"
Watch a Texas A&M vs. LSU game then flip over and check out Wisconsin vs. Penn State.
When you watch the two games, it becomes obvious where the better quality football is.
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It was not my intention to come off as being condescending.
And no, even if they win the National Title, I don't think they are a top 5 team in the country if I'm being perfectly honest.
I compare it to a team like Boise State. Yeah, they went and beat up on Oregon one year and went undefeated. Beating a superior opponent in one game doesn't automatically mean you're the best team.
And I'm not knocking Ohio State, there's been plenty of teams win titles who weren't the best team. LSU was better than Alabama a few years ago. USC was better than LSU in 2004 (I think that was the year). I still think Auburn was better than USC in 2003.
It is what it is, Ohio State has gotten the job done and for that they should, and will be rewarded. But I just watch the games and see a team that if there was an 8 team tournament, would be the 6th to 8th favorite to win that tournament. That's all.
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The answer to every one of your questions is, who knows. If you picked the top 8 teams based on the rankings and played a playoff, any of those 8 teams could string together 3 good games and win it... In fact you can go down to about 12 or 13 and I could see any of those teams winning an 8 team playoff... odds are if you played it 3 or 4 times you would get 3 or 4 different winners... which is why I say, there is no "best team" in college football, there is only a champion.
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Excellent article, and I agree ESPN is feeding the SEC hype. IMO, if OSU wouldn't have gotten absolutely thrashed in those NC games, we wouldn't be having this controversy. The only way to right the ship is for a few SEC teams to get the tar beat out of them in the same fashion. From the looks of those bowl projections, it's not going to happen this year.
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Honestly, the "SEC isn't as good as you think" comes from the fact that the bottom of the conference isn't great.
But the top of the conference is every bit as good as advertised.
The SEC (minus the Bama vs. LSU game, which I won't count because it was 2 SEC teams) is winning these National Title games by an average of 17 points.
The top teams in the conference have lived up to the hype for the past 7 years.
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BCS Title Game scores :
Florida 41, Ohio State 14
LSU 38, Ohio State 24
Florida 24, Oklahoma 14
Alabama 37, Texas 21
Auburn 22, Oregon 19
Alabama 21, LSU 0
Alabama 42, Notre Dame 14
The SEC is, for the most part, dominating teams in the BCS title game, so I'm not sure how anyone can say it's 'just a bias' when they've proven it on the field for the past 7 years.
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Outside of last season (when Bama getting in over OkieState was wrong)
Do you mean 2 seasons ago?
see what I get for posting while sitting in a meeting 
(yes)
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which is why I say, there is no "best team" in college football, there is only a champion.
Absolutely. I think that "best" and "champion" get conflated quite often.
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I'm sorry, but when I watch Ohio State play, I don't see a top team in the country.
If you do, that's fine. But I see an offense that is one dimensional, as Braxton has limited ability throwing the football. I'll give you the run game is outstanding, no arguments here on that. I see a defense that has given up 24+ points in 6 games, 30+ points in 4 games, and over 40 points to Michigan.
I see a good, not elite, football team.
I understand what you're saying, and if I'm being completely honest, I'm not even sure this is the best Buckeyes team in the last 5 years. It's not as good as the Troy Smith team with Wells and Ginn and Gonzales and, yes, Robiskie.
I just wonder if you realize how condescending it seems when you say "Yeah, they deserve to be in the national championship game, but they're not a top 5 team."
Four questions:
If they get there, and they beat FSU, are they a top-5 team?
If they get there, and they beat FSU without Jameis Winston, are they a top-5 team?
If they get there, and they beat Missouri, are they a top-5 team?
If they get there, and they beat Auburn, are they a top-5 team?
You can literally make the argument that a team isn't the best for anyone that wins a championship in any league at any level. The Ravens won the Super Bowl, but were they the best team? I mean they realistically shouldn't have even been in the Super Bowl if that idiot defensive back on the Broncos doesn't fall on his face.
I think that's stupid. you're the champ if you win.
If Ohio State and Florida State were to make the championship, but FSU were to remove Winston from the team before the game because of the situation going on with him, I'd feel like it was a hollow championship (should OSU go on to win that game) That's not fair to OSU as well. No win situation. By the way, how shady is it that they are waiting until after these conference championship games are over to decide whether to charge him. If that's a coincidence, and it's just taking that long, that's fine, but after the story that has emerged about the police telling this victim about how much pull the school and football team has, I think it's shady.
I can't wait until this new system is in place, so SEC fans can stop downgrading everyone else's team. Yes, your conference is the best in the nation, but you aren't the only ones playing football.
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The point is that the system is rigged from the beginning because of totally random preseason rankings...
Let's take a hypothetical... this season, Ohio State was preseason #2, Northwestern was preseason #22, and Wisconsin was preseason #23... that was it for the Big 10..
Alabama was #1, Georgia #5, South Carolina #6, Texas A&M #7, Florida #10, LSU #12
So Texas A&M, for example, is 8-4 and still ranked at #22.. Iowa Nebraska, and Minnesota are all 8-4 and nobody would even think any of them deserve to be ranked... why? Because they haven't played all of these other ranked teams... the other teams are only ranked because of some preseason perception of how good they might be...
If the season had played out exactly as it did with all the same teams winning all the same games except... the preseason polls had OSU at #2, Michigan State at #6, Wisconsin at #9, Iowa at #11... nobody would be questioning whether OSU deserves to be in the national championship game... everybody would have still beaten all the same teams, but because of preseason perception and expectation, they are viewed as the lesser team...
Similarly, in the SEC, if Auburn, Alabama, and Missouri were top 10, South Carolina was #12, LSU was #18 but Florida, Texas A&M, and Georgia were unranked.. all of the sudden the strength of schedule doesn't look any more imposing than Ohio States.. the 11-1 teams should still be highly ranked but there is no way they would be talking about leapfrogging one of them over Ohio State..
Nice summation. 
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And I'm not knocking Ohio State
You have been knocking Ohio State all along. You talk about the eye test, the lackluster competition, etc, etc.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you really know what you are seeing and if you are even seeing it at all. I think your mind is made up. You don't like Ohio State. You love the SEC. That is what I think. And then you try to pawn it off as you are speaking as a voice of reason.
Did you know that Ohio State did not play a game for either 51 or 53 days before they faced Florida in that National Championship game. That is almost two freaking months. Did you ever wonder why we now have two byes and why the Big Ten implemented a Conference Championship game? Well, it goes back to those years when we played and SEC team in the National Championship who played two more games in each year after we were finished w/our schedule. 53 days? That is a flawed system.
Look, I think Ohio State's defense is putrid this year, but I haven't seen a better, more complete offense. We might not stop any of the other powers, but you ain't stopping us, either.
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