DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... 1.8 million year old skull.....how does this make you feel about God???

Speaking for myself, I have found that if I make myself available to God, He makes Himself available to me.

That does not mean that I always get what I want. However, when I ask for His help, I always get it, in one way or another.

Are there situations that are harder then others to see through? Sure, of course. That is, unfortunately, the way life is. Tragedy is part of our lives, and nothing can change that. Have I mourned the loss of a loved one, and asked God why he would take someone still in the prime of their life? Absolutely. Unfortunately, we live in a sinful world, but God's promise to us is that we will see our friends and loved ones again in heaven.

Believe me, I have asked myself many times why it is that evil all too often wins, and why good people all too often suffer unimaginable losses. I have had my doubts. The only answer is that the world is a sinful and evil place, and that God allows us all free will, and that free will in an evil world can cause tragedy, even to good people. However, God can still help, even through the worst of grief, if we allow Him to.

That is the only answer I have. It is a feeling felt deep inside. I cannot explain it, except that it is an absolute certainty that things will be OK. I have zero doubt as to what the reason is.

As far as if I were to suffer hardship, well, I have.

It's strange. My father came back into my life a few years ago, after being gone for decades. I rejected him, and hated him. I mean hated him with a passion. God told me to forgive him, but I refused. Then my back went. Long story short, my father slowly worked his way back into my life, and even though I hated him, and would never forgive him for what he had done to myself, my brothers, and my mother, I learned to finally do so. The Bible tells me that we all have to learn to forgive others in order to be forgiven. I am not anywhere near close to being good at this, but I have learned to be better. I admit to struggling with being able to forgive those who commit horrible crimes, or even global atrocities. However, they will face God's judgement in their time. I have to trust in that, because in the end, no punishment will help the victims of their crimes, but God can offer them comfort if they wish to accept it, and God will judge all men in the end. I do not have to like that reality, but much as children have to accept that there are certain things that only their parents can and should handle, I am but a child compared to God. There are certain things that only He can handle, and the disposition of soul, and punishment for sin in the afterlife are among them.

Anyway, I rambled on way too long here. I hope that some of what I have said makes some sense.

jc

I think people try too hard to understand things they don't need to know and care about things that don't really matter.

Is there a God? What's he like? Why do bad things happen to good people and bad people get away with doing bad things?

Let's see how many folks hate what I think. First off, I have a strong faith in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That being said I have very little use for religions and their man made confines.

In the Bible:

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

I always find this verse fun to THINK about. In physics all things first come from ENERGY. Everything in our Universe that takes shape or form is some version of compressed Energy. When Energy is compressed we have matter, mass, and basically everything in the entire universe. When its released from its various forms of compression things tend to go BOOM or at the least change into something else.

So to me GOD is ENERGY in its purest form. Since we exist, we are made of compressed ENERGY. This means we are made of GOD, Thus the holy spirit. This also means we are made in his image. "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them" Genesis 1:27. The funny thing is Energy can take on whatever form it wants.

What I also find funny is the hangup over Adam and Eve. Is there anywhere is the Bible that it says Adam and Eve are the ONLY ones he ever created? Does it say anywhere he didn't tinker around a bit first? Nope we just ASSUME that we are the end result of everything and that we are all he made. It doesn't say that in the Bible anywhere. I am not even sure he could have told Moses in a way he would understand even if he had wanted to.

BTW people also get hung up on the numbers in the bible like 7 days and 40 days and 40 nights. The original language the bible was written in leave room for interpretation. 40 days and 40 nights can just as easily simply mean "a long time." The 7 days of creation can also represent ages where an age could just mean an indescribable amount of time. Did you know that the Bible tells the story of creation in 2 ways? The first one he doesn't says specifically Adam and Eve but says, ALL of mankind. It's also interesting to note the days of creation pretty much follow how science says our planet was formed if you view the days of creation as AGES and not simply a day.

Keep in mind God is trying to explain creation to people living before modern science. If you think it's so easy then read a few book on anthropology where modern man meets a tribe in the jungle and tries to tell them about the outside world. Things have to get WAY dumbed down.

Bad things happen because God programmed us to use our brains to make decisions with the freedom to do bad or good. It's all our fault not his. Unless you prefer to be mindless robot zombies? Of course for fun you could also just say we live in the 7th day/age of creation and for the most part he is just watching to see what his creations do. He only intercedes when we run the risk of destroying ourselves and or the planet =)


Anyways the skull of some primitive monkey from a long time ago doesn't make me doubt the existence of God in the least.

Once more, it's called Faith for a reason. There is no logical reasoning .... no absolute, measurable proof ....... no ability to positively repeat exact results across a wide spectrum of people. It is Faith, and it is felt, and experienced, differently for different people.

If you are looking for a scientific brief on the existence of God, then you will wait for a very long, long time. Faith doesn't work on evidence. By its very definition, Faith is a belief in that which cannot be seen with the eyes, but rather felt more with the heart and soul.

First, just so you understand my beliefs; I am an atheist. I do not believe in God or any Gods of any religion. Personally I do not believe in organized religion regardless of distinct faith. However, I feel very strongly that anyone has the right to believe anything they want and to stand up for, lean on and protect those beliefs.

Now I would like to address both sides of the issue. IF god does exist, isn't it possible that he not only created the world but he also created the MEN who wrote the bible (2000 + years ago) and the languages that the bible has been translated into numerous times? Does is also stand to reason that God created evolution as part of his plan, as well as the science and scientist behind it? A true god would want his creation to advance, no? Surely god does not expect us to live as the people did 2000 years ago when Jesus was here. Surely god would not want us to die needlessly of curable diseases. etc. etc.

Then why can't both sides be right? Because the MEN who wrote a book 2000 years ago said in that book that faith in god is the only thing we need? Surely God is not that simple. If this is true and we should all live like that, then any TRUE believer would have to give up all of the advancements over that last 2000 years to be a true believer. That would mean everything modern is a sin... Like arguing the existence of God on an internet discussion board.

Now if there is NO God, and we are truly evolving and advancing as a civilization completely on our own, then a little faith in GOOD and fear of EVIL is not such a bad thing. So you won't find me bashing people for their faith; unless they are extremist who think they have the right to injure and kill others who do not believe as they do. I am also not crazy about people of faith that automatically condemn me for my beliefs or feel they need to push their beliefs on me like they're doing me a favor.

As for the skull, it's cool but I'm not as interested in where we came from as I am where we are going.

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Now I would like to address both sides of the issue. IF god does exist, isn't it possible that he not only created the world but he also created the MEN who wrote the bible (2000 + years ago) and the languages that the bible has been translated into numerous times? Does is also stand to reason that God created evolution as part of his plan, as well as the science and scientist behind it? A true god would want his creation to advance, no? Surely god does not expect us to live as the people did 2000 years ago when Jesus was here. Surely god would not want us to die needlessly of curable diseases. etc. etc.

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I think so. I have long argued that any and all natural processes in the entire universe are part of God's work, and God's plan. I also think that God intends for us to advance.

I think that the concern is when man presumes to think that he is somehow God's equal, or that God does not exist, because man can explain the way that God does some things. If a child understands that his parent strikes a match to start a fire, does that make the child on par with the parent? No. The child understands one small part of one thing the parent does.

Using the scientific "If", "If" there is a God, then he must be capable of manipulating energy in all forms, including the creation of matter in all forms, and obviously would be capable of creating life. Further, He would have to be capable of creating energy out of nothing on an unimaginable scale. (or, at least, changing "something else" into energy .... creating physical dimensions of height, width, and depth, and time, consciousness, etc.) and doing so on a universal scale. What an awesome task that would be for any being. However, the alternative is that all of this "just happened". Speaking solely for myself, I cannot believe that all we are, see, and know, just happened by accident.

thanks Razor. your post sums up my thoughts better than any others on here (including my own).

Draftdayz, I was waiting for you to show up. I always appreciate your scientific insight. Can you recommend a reliable and concise introduction to carbon dating and uranium-lead dating?

Michael Cremo - Forbidden Archeology & other Tidbits

As you might expect, it because the half-life of carbon is extremely short compared to those of uranium and lead. That's why Carbon is preferred for shorter times... you get more precision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

Uranium-lead dating method[edit]
Main article: uranium-lead dating


A concordia diagram as used in uranium-lead dating, with data from the Pfunze Belt, Zimbabwe.[17] All the samples show loss of lead isotopes, but the intercept of the errorchron (straight line through the sample points) and the concordia (curve) shows the correct age of the rock.[12]

The uranium-lead radiometric dating scheme has been refined to the point that the error margin in dates of rocks can be as low as less than two million years in two-and-a-half billion years.[13][18] An error margin of 2–5% has been achieved on younger Mesozoic rocks.[19]

Uranium-lead dating is often performed on the mineral zircon (ZrSiO4), though it can be used on other materials, such as baddeleyite.[20] Zircon and baddeleyite incorporate uranium atoms into their crystalline structure as substitutes for zirconium, but strongly reject lead. Zircon has a very high closure temperature, is resistant to mechanical weathering and is very chemically inert. Zircon also forms multiple crystal layers during metamorphic events, which each may record an isotopic age of the event. In situ micro-beam analysis can be achieved via laser ICP-MS or SIMS techniques.[21]

One of its great advantages is that any sample provides two clocks, one based on uranium-235's decay to lead-207 with a half-life of about 700 million years, and one based on uranium-238's decay to lead-206 with a half-life of about 4.5 billion years, providing a built-in crosscheck that allows accurate determination of the age of the sample even if some of the lead has been lost. This can be seen in the concordia diagram, where the samples plot along an errorchron (straight line) which intersects the concordia curve at the age of the sample.


Radiocarbon dating method[edit]
Main article: Radiocarbon dating


Ale's Stones at Kåseberga, around ten kilometres south east of Ystad, Sweden were dated at 600 CE using the carbon-14 method on organic material found at the site.[23]

Carbon-14 is a radioactive isotope of carbon, with a half-life of 5,730 years,[24][25] which is very short compared with the above isotopes. In other radiometric dating methods, the heavy parent isotopes were produced by nucleosynthesis in supernovas, meaning that any parent isotope with a short half-life should be extinct by now. Carbon-14, though, is continuously created through collisions of neutrons generated by cosmic rays with nitrogen in the upper atmosphere and thus remains at a near-constant level on Earth. The carbon-14 ends up as a trace component in atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2).

An organism acquires carbon during its lifetime. Plants acquire it through photosynthesis, and animals acquire it from consumption of plants and other animals. When an organism dies, it ceases to take in new carbon-14, and the existing isotope decays with a characteristic half-life (5730 years). The proportion of carbon-14 left when the remains of the organism are examined provides an indication of the time elapsed since its death. The carbon-14 dating limit lies around 58,000 to 62,000 years.[26]

The rate of creation of carbon-14 appears to be roughly constant, as cross-checks of carbon-14 dating with other dating methods show it gives consistent results. However, local eruptions of volcanoes or other events that give off large amounts of carbon dioxide can reduce local concentrations of carbon-14 and give inaccurate dates. The releases of carbon dioxide into the biosphere as a consequence of industrialization have also depressed the proportion of carbon-14 by a few percent; conversely, the amount of carbon-14 was increased by above-ground nuclear bomb tests that were conducted into the early 1960s. Also, an increase in the solar wind or the Earth's magnetic field above the current value would depress the amount of carbon-14 created in the atmosphere. These effects are corrected for by the calibration of the radiocarbon dating scale.[27]

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while I don't believe without explanation, I'm VERY open to any information which can sway me.

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I believe that type of information, for the most part, lies inside ourselves. (Of course it is possible to find external guidance.) So I also believe that if you really are interested in discovering something, anything, perhaps even everything you need to know it that regard, meditate daily, at least once per day, for at least 20 minutes, and longer when possible. Sit up straight, hands on your knees palms up, close your eyes and concentrate on the center of your forehead. Try (though it is very difficult) to completely clear your mind. See what you come up with. It can take several attempts to see results, but when you're persistent, it can change your life. Meditation IMO, is truly one of the greatest gifts you can give yourself.

JMHO

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Meditation IMO, is truly one of the greatest gifts you can give yourself.

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Or twinkies, but yeah, meditation is good, too.

I will admit, I do sometimes question and research things in the bible. This is because a part of me believes mankind was never meant to understand God. I believe God is real and is infinite beyond anything we can comprehend.

That's why it irks me when people say they know for sure what others don't when it comes to God.

Closed minds cannot be filled.

Your Welcome! Glad to see someone read my post =)

To answer the larger questions,

Do I believe in God, absolutely.

Do I believe in the literal word of bible, probably not.

Do I believe is most, but not all, of the principles taught in the bible, yes.

The bible is simply the first written interpretation of the meaning of God, written in a time and by those who had little understanding of all that surrounded them, but who appreciated and were blessed with the greater understanding of the meaning of life.

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The proof is not there and the evidence is not clear.

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It's very clear to me.

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'Evidence' and 'proof' are real words. They have real, definite meanings.

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Exactly... there is a ton of evidence... and many cases have been proven on overwhelming circumstantial evidence.

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As someone who believes 100% that there is no God, I would never in a million years claim I have proof.

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Good, you'd be lying.

With me, it's very hard to verify a lot of the texts from the Old Testament due to the time period and record-keeping that occurred then. However, you can corroborate certain figures and events in the bible with other non-religious historical records to lend credence.

The Creation

DAY 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

God created the heavens first, think we all agree the stars came first.

Basically I interpret this to mean after the stars were formed space gases and water vapor coalesced into what is now the earth. Then energy(holy spirit) caused the earth to take form.

3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: 2 Cor. 4.6 and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Our sun ignited then the earth started to rotate as the sun's gravity began to pull into orbit.

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DAY 2

6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The crust of the earth began to crack, volcanoes formed and our water planet started evaporating water into the atmosphere. (side note:Some Biblical scholars might point to this passage as meaning that the land mass of earth is actually heaven. Since water is below the land and rain is above it. Not sure what I think but its fun to contemplate)

So ended the first Day. Doesn't that seem more like a period of time where the earth was being formed. How would you explain something like this to to people 6000 years ago? It is also very consistent with how stars and planets are thought to be formed.

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DAY 3

9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Basically the ice caps formed and sea levels dropped to expose all those land masses that had been erupting under the world wide ocean.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Now that we have land and oceans and lakes, plants are born and spread. (I don't think you could have explained microbiology even if your tried to Moses and Joshua. But it makes sense evolution wise that plants came before animals and thus ended day two.

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DAY 4

14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Basically God keeps making more stars and it seems also the moon. These verses also imply God created the stars as much for religious signs as to provide night lights for us. Some would take it that it lends a certain credence to astrology although many would hate to accept that the early Jews believed in sacred numbers and practiced their own form of astrology that many scholars say was very accurate for making prophecies. Not sure what I feel about it to be honest but its fun to think about.

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DAY 5

20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Please note the order of living creatures made. Life was made in WATER first then that life moved onto land from the water and then we have fowl or birds. Funny how the theory of evolution is not so far from how God said he created life.If each day is an age of time then it REALLY support that.

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DAY 6

24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, 1 Cor. 11.7 after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

After everything else is created and the earth if full of living creatures God makes us in his own image to rule and manage the earth. Has this not come to pass? Does not man hold the fate of our world in our own hands?Do we not control what species flourish or go extinct? it is OUR job to run this world stop whining about why god lets things happen.

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Day 7

Genesis
2

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Heb. 4.4, 10
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: Ex. 20.11 because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

We are to work 6 days and rest the 7th. This is the Age of REST for God. He only intervenes when we are about to destroy ourselves or the world.


I find it incredible that the story of creation which is thousands and thousands of years old is told in such a way that makes sense from a scientific perspective when you accept that in the ORIGINAL language the book of genesis was written in the word that is used for day can also mean a period of time aka the day/age of the dinosaurs.

Science is NOT the enemy of God. It is the study of how God created our world and universe and how he makes it all work. Should not a child seek to emulate their father? Nothing in wrong with seeking to understand how God's creation works or was made. What makes me really curious though is what happens on Day 8 when Jesus returns 8)

Why is it that you consider this particular creation myth to be any better or more accurate than all of the other creation myths all over the world, many of them far older?

A side question would be how exactly was this particular story actually communicated to those who eventually wrote it down? I don't recall a place in the Bible where God dictates his memoirs.

Don't worry about proving God's existence, because no one can disprove it.

Why is it so important to you that the Genesis creation myth correspond to how the earth was actually created? Because I have to say, as a Christian myself, your interpretation of the myth is wildly implausible in some places. Why can't you just accept Genesis as mythology?

I was raised in a Lutheran church but never religious...so I honestly have a lot of trouble understanding why people are religious.

If anyone has an answer to this I'm pretty curious about it.

What do you think about the idea that had you been born/adopted into a different family you would be a different religion? Whether that is a christian denomination like Catholic / Baptist / Lutheran etc. or say you were born / adopted into a Jewish / Buddhist / Hindu family?

How do you maintain faith in spite of that idea?

I've never really been religious so I can't honestly relate to what the answer may be for you. But I am curious how you reconcile it with your beliefs.

A coupla of thoughts on this.
This isn't even close to being the oldest human skull,so this discovery should have no bearing what so ever on a person's belief in God.
Now,The New Testament as the word of God.
As I understand it,the Council of Nicea determined what would be in,and what would be left out.The omitted manuscripts is the interesting part to me.A gathering of the High Priests,with nothing but their own beliefs and prejudices,somehow could determine what is,and what is not The Word of God.
It is my contention that choices were made on a single criterion,what was best for the church.
Belief in God,I can understand,but belief in group of powerful men who think they know what's best for me,I can't go there.

But the Christian message is absolute, accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior or no pearly gates for you. That leaves a whole lot of people on the outside looking in.

Only Mormons go to heaven ! /southpark