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Reading a lot about Martin being Gay as well.
So what?
Does that mean that he should be abused by another person, physically threatened and intimidated?
Let me ask you a question. If you are not a violent person, and a person at least as big as you, with a history of violence and questionable sanity starts threatening you, what do you do?
I have seen the dynamics of bullying, and in a case like this, other OL probably went along, thankful that they weren't the target.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Reading a lot about Martin being Gay as well.
So what?
Does that mean that he should be abused by another person, physically threatened and intimidated?
Let me ask you a question. If you are not a violent person, and a person at least as big as you, with a history of violence and questionable sanity starts threatening you, what do you do?
I have seen the dynamics of bullying, and in a case like this, other OL probably went along, thankful that they weren't the target.
It changes the entire dynamic of the situation if he's gay. Especially in the eyes of the NFL and the public. Right now he's just a guy who couldn't take some hazing. If he's a gay man being abused FOR BEING gay it's entirely different, it's almost a hate crime at that point. Whether he is gay or not does make a difference.
If a man my size is threatening me, I'd walk away when I could, but at the end of the day he is going to have to answer to me if it persists. Win or lose we're going to hash it out.
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There's a difference between 'standing up to a bully' and saying 'No, I'm not giving you $15,000.'
The vets seem to make the rookies pay for all kinds of things on every team. I seem to remember Dez Bryant having to pay for a $87k team dinner his rookie year.
That and the $15k stuff stinks, but that's harmless compared to what people are saying happened to Martin. Although, if you're making the league minimum and someone demands you pay for a crazy dinner like Dez, that could affect you ability to pay for your house (or camo car).
Until more stuff comes out, I think we should be careful judging Martin or Incognito.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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If you are not a violent person, and a person at least as big as you, with a history of violence and questionable sanity starts threatening you, what do you do?
Abandon the non violent ideology and go ape on the offending bully . Chances are even if you come up on the short end of things you will only have to prove yourself once . Show the bully that there are easier marks .
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Quote:
Quote:
If you are not a violent person, and a person at least as big as you, with a history of violence and questionable sanity starts threatening you, what do you do?
Abandon the non violent ideology and go ape on the offending bully . Chances are even if you come up on the short end of things you will only have to prove yourself once . Show the bully that there are easier marks .
Then you get kicked off or suspended by the team, and nobody wants to offer you another contract. Sounds like a good plan.
This isn't middle school. These are adults and this should not be happening.
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Quote:
Quote:
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If you are not a violent person, and a person at least as big as you, with a history of violence and questionable sanity starts threatening you, what do you do?
Abandon the non violent ideology and go ape on the offending bully . Chances are even if you come up on the short end of things you will only have to prove yourself once . Show the bully that there are easier marks .
Then you get kicked off or suspended by the team, and nobody wants to offer you another contract. Sounds like a good plan.
This isn't middle school. These are adults and this should not be happening.
Who gets kicked off the team? The rookie with no history of violence or the known psychopath that's been instigating it?
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Then you get kicked off or suspended by the team, and nobody wants to offer you another contract.
Or you could walk off the team after throwing a hissy fit then when/if you come back you are the butt of everyone's jokes . A man has to be a man from time to time. JMHO
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Quote:
Quote:
If you are not a violent person, and a person at least as big as you, with a history of violence and questionable sanity starts threatening you, what do you do?
Abandon the non violent ideology and go ape on the offending bully . Chances are even if you come up on the short end of things you will only have to prove yourself once . Show the bully that there are easier marks .
I've seen that before, it doesn't always work. In some cases, the person just brought more hard times onto themselves. And again, what if it's 5 against 1? You think the other 4 are going to leave you alone because you fought back?
Think about the dynamics going on here. These are vets trying to break a rookie/newcomer so they can keep their jobs. They are probably trying to get him to fight back, then they can paint him as a loose cannon that has a voilent streak and should be off the team. What then?
And like I said above, if you tell the coaches you're being picked on everyone will think you're a rat and the coaches will probably laugh you out of the room. I can really see how Martin was painted into a corner. I can't blame him for reaching his limit, although leaving the team wasn't a good choice.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Anyone still willing to defend incognito? Dolphins harassment case text from incognito to Martin used racial slur Among the texts that Jonathan Martin made available to his parents, and then, eventually the Dolphins and the NFL, include those in which Richie Incognito refers to Martin, who is biracial, as a "half-n*****," according to a source who was privy to the communication.
There are several instances of threats as well, the sources said, and overall disturbing exchanges, including one in which Incognito refers to defecating in Martin's mouth.
Incognito also made reference to tracking down members of Martin's family and harming them in the texts as well, according to a source.
In some instances, that kind of rhetoric might be shaken off or ignored, but, given the track record of incidents between Incognito and Martin, and how sustained it had become, Martin truly felt that Incognito might be capable of inflicting harm, and for his safety getting away from the team was in his best interests.
The NFL, apprised of the evidence, began upper-level meetings on the case this morning as it launches its investigation. People with access to some of the exchanges believe in time this situation could become a springboard for further policies and practices at the league-wide level in regards to hazing, verbal harassment and perhaps also stricter codes in terms of financial harassment and actions whereby rookies are required by veterans to pick up excessive tabs and bills as a rite of passage.So yeah, just stand up to him and he'll go away.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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So yeah, just stand up to him and he'll go away.
Different strokes for different folks . I am in the stand up category right or wrong . I can see not wanting to take that route though .
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-jc-
I'm only 34 and things have changed a lot since I was in school. Now a days you don't know if you stand up to a Bully whether or not that Bully is going to go get a gun. Heck look at Aaron Hernandez as an example.
It looks like Martin believes that Incognito will harm him, so standing up to him and then Incognito going off and harming Martin or one of his family members back would prove what exactly?
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I don't know what it would prove, I'd understand Martin being unsure what to do in that situation. Risk your job, your familes safety or just try to handle it long enough until you can go to a different team. Something big must have happened recently to cause Martin to leave.
If you believe incognito and his crew are unstable enough to follow through with the threat, do you risk it? And remember, Pouncey is rumored to be involved with this too. You know the same guy who was wearing a "Free Hernandez" hat around South Beach a few months back. If he's running with Hernandez, do you trust his threats are empty ones?
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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-jc-
I'm only 34 and things have changed a lot since I was in school. Now a days you don't know if you stand up to a Bully whether or not that Bully is going to go get a gun. Heck look at Aaron Hernandez as an example.
It looks like Martin believes that Incognito will harm him, so standing up to him and then Incognito going off and harming Martin or one of his family members back would prove what exactly?
Exactly. Even if Incognto didn't have a weapon, what happens if he shows up on Martin's parent's front door one day? What if he doesn't even do anything except threaten them, like he did Martin himself?
Hazing used to be accepted at every level of football, from pee-wee all the way up to the pros as a "team building exercise". Most levels of football, up to college, have decided that maybe hazing isn't all that beneficial after all, especially after some kids died as a result of being hazed.
It shouldn't take someone being killed, or even "just" hurt, to put a stop to dangerous practices. No one should have to fear for their life, safety, or the safety of their loved ones as a consequence of having a job, and playing a game they love.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I thought this was more of a bullying situation than hazing. But maybe it's a combination.
I didn't rush a frat in college because I thought hazing was incredibly stupid.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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I want to add ...... I lived through hazing in one of the more brutal environments for new employees ...... car sales.
In my first job in the business, I came in with 6 or 7 other rookies. The rest went to New Car Sales after their training. I went to Used Car Sales. You want to talk about hazing. Good lord. I was walking a customer back to my office one day and one of the salesmen walked up, in front of the customer, and said to me, "Oh, your boyfriend called, and he wants you to bring home pizza and KY tonight." "crazy: That was one of the milder incidents.
My 2nd job in the business, I was assigned an office with a long term salesman, who really was a good guy. However he had seen hundreds of rookies come and go. Anyway, I went to introduce myself to him and he said "When you've been here 6 months, then I'll learn your name." It was kinda funny, because 6 months to the day I said to him "Hi, It's been 6 months. My name is ...." lol
Anyway ..... this business is brutal to newbies. It's competitive, and other salesmen have a vested interest in blowing out new employees. (more ups for them, and such) The business itself, though, does not, It amazes me that they tolerate so much abuse, given the expense they go through hiring and training new salespeople. The wash out rate is incredibly high, and largely because of hazing. Some people have a thick enough skin to allow the hazing to bounce off. Other people don't. back to football, a player has to be skilled, not necessarily capable of standing up to bullies on his own team. There is a difference between willing to confront an opponent on the field, and being threatened by a teammate.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I thought this was more of a bullying situation than hazing. But maybe it's a combination.
I didn't rush a frat in college because I thought hazing was incredibly stupid.
It sounds to me like the 2 were combined into one continuing process in Miami.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I thought this was more of a bullying situation than hazing. But maybe it's a combination.
I didn't rush a frat in college because I thought hazing was incredibly stupid.
Hazing is what you do to the new guys, and then after a few weeks tops it's over, after that I'd say it becomes bullying.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I thought this was more of a bullying situation than hazing. But maybe it's a combination.
I'd call forcing him pay $15,000 for a trip he wasn't on extortion too and I bet this will become a police investigation soon.
At least Dez Bryant was AT the dinner he got stuck with the bill for.
Ugly, ugly situation here.
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*In Baker we trust*
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j/c
Say a new neighbor moves in next door to you about the same age,size etc. He makes threats toward you , glares at you every time you are outside of your house, harasses your wife and kids to the point that they don't want to leave . You contact the cops and they are unable to do anything so what do you do ? Move ?
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Nice politically correct answer. However, he is a freaking grown man. I suspect he has some serious issues that need to be dealt with.
Yes, he is a grown man. A grown man who shouldn't have to tolerate a hostile work environment for over a year after he told his coaches about it. Adult or not, that kind of treatment will wear on someone. He took the high road and walked away instead of being an idiot and punching Incognito and getting disciplined for it.
If you were constantly harassed by the same guy at work for over a year on an almost daily basis and told your bosses and HR about it without any solutions ever being created, how do you think you would handle it? Aside from the tough guy response of "beat him up," how would you handle it? I think Martin did pretty well to keep his cool for so long and to finally create distance from the situation. I'm not sure of what he did that was lacking in manliness.
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I can't post it here but deadspin just posted an article about Incognitos dad posting on a message board that Martin was a drug user and tried to commit suicide multiple times. That his issues have been long documented since college. So it would appear he has some mental issues if any of that is true.
Interesting that this would come out right after information comes out that Incognito's dad is probably the reason he is the way he is...
I've never been bullied but as I see it, you have 4 courses of actions...
1. Tell somebody... it's already been posted that nobody likes a rat.
2. Fight back... Forgetting for a moment that it might be 1 on 4 or 5.. nobody likes a guy who starts fights with his teammates either.
3. Run... which he eventually did, and nobody likes a quitter and they call him a baby and mentally unstable (which he may or may not be, I don't know.)
4. Suck it up and take it... this is the option bullies rely on you taking because none of the other 3 make you very popular or look good for you.
yebat' Putin
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You paint a pretty dire picture of a victim who finds themselves in a bullying situation. It breaks my heart when we continue to hear story after story about these teen kids committing suicide because of bullying. But what are their options? It doesn't look like they have many.
You painted a pretty bleak picture. I think the lesser of all the evils is #2. You have to fight back. Unless someone can come up with something better.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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They don't have many options, especially when it's a gang mentality (getting away from this specific incident for a second because I do not know many of the details of exactly what he was going through)...
Bullies are the most shallow cowards I can think of..
yebat' Putin
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I've never been bullied but as I see it, you have 4 courses of actions...
1. Tell somebody... it's already been posted that nobody likes a rat.
2. Fight back... Forgetting for a moment that it might be 1 on 4 or 5.. nobody likes a guy who starts fights with his teammates either.
3. Run... which he eventually did, and nobody likes a quitter and they call him a baby and mentally unstable (which he may or may not be, I don't know.)
4. Suck it up and take it... this is the option bullies rely on you taking because none of the other 3 make you very popular or look good for you.
I was when I was a kid and, as a kid, I have tried each of those:
(1) Rarely works. Sure, it may get the desired effect on the surface, but now that bully has a deeper resentment towards you.
It did work once in a strange way. One kid decided to tease me and I was able to effectively turn the tide pretty easy towards him being the one teased. In fact, it really turned the tide and I wasn't smart enough to know when to stop. He had his older brothers come to have a talk with me to intimidate me (to their credit, nothing physical), but what it really did was make me realize I went from being wronged to the wrong one. I apologized and stopped.
(2) Risky especially when outnumbered.
I have had a situation where I was outnumbered 3:1 and decided I needed to take on the ringleader. Somehow managed to fight him to a draw in a long fight because none of the others helped him. They left me alone afterwards.
Also have had the situation where you end up doing the same and get held back and things don't end up as rosy. Usually, that leads to them becoming more intense as they feel emboldened that you now know they will use their numbers if necessary.
(3) Living scared might be necessary at times, but man it stinks.
I had a tough time with this one (as seen above). I had to do it on a few occasions, but it definitely didn't make anything better and usually just pushes you to one of the top2 options after awhile.
(4) Breaking this down into 2 parts:
(A) Suck it up and take it (as you described):
This comes with really disliking yourself and hating your bullies. I don't suggest it. It's really the primary reason for the huge anti-bully campaigns out there. Nothing gets resolved, things fester, and eventually you need a release (and hopefully you find one that is healthy - I found mine in sports thankfully).
(B) Roll with the punches
This is different than sucking it up and taking it. You just create an apathy towards the comments (physical is obviously a different story). You playfully rib back or at yourself even and you have to NOT care. It took me a long, long time to get there, but, once I did, I was much happier for it. It was funny in that my siblings and close friends could say things 100x more cruel than anything said by others and we'd laugh and taunt each other, but I would get sensitive from those stupid comments. I eventually learned to not care and things pretty much took care of themselves (not as much fun to tease guys who don't react other than a playful comment here or there).
#gmstrong
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Thank you for that response. 
yebat' Putin
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Thank you for that response.
no problem. the cool thing about being in 4.B is that you can look back and laugh about what it took to get you there 
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that's an odd bra size...
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that's an odd bra size...
that's because it's my thong size.
#gmstrong
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that's an odd bra size...
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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JC This is a strange situation. Racist text? I thought I remember watching a special little skit on Incognito and how he's trying to reverse his continued and well-known dirty reputation? I guess not. Oh well, glad it's their drama, and not ours
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Anyone still willing to defend incognito?
Dolphins harassment case text from incognito to Martin used racial slur
Among the texts that Jonathan Martin made available to his parents, and then, eventually the Dolphins and the NFL, include those in which Richie Incognito refers to Martin, who is biracial, as a "half-n*****," according to a source who was privy to the communication.
There are several instances of threats as well, the sources said, and overall disturbing exchanges, including one in which Incognito refers to defecating in Martin's mouth.
Incognito also made reference to tracking down members of Martin's family and harming them in the texts as well, according to a source.
In some instances, that kind of rhetoric might be shaken off or ignored, but, given the track record of incidents between Incognito and Martin, and how sustained it had become, Martin truly felt that Incognito might be capable of inflicting harm, and for his safety getting away from the team was in his best interests.
The NFL, apprised of the evidence, began upper-level meetings on the case this morning as it launches its investigation. People with access to some of the exchanges believe in time this situation could become a springboard for further policies and practices at the league-wide level in regards to hazing, verbal harassment and perhaps also stricter codes in terms of financial harassment and actions whereby rookies are required by veterans to pick up excessive tabs and bills as a rite of passage.
So yeah, just stand up to him and he'll go away.
He's done. What a punk!
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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j/c
Say a new neighbor moves in next door to you about the same age,size etc. He makes threats toward you , glares at you every time you are outside of your house, harasses your wife and kids to the point that they don't want to leave . You contact the cops and they are unable to do anything so what do you do ? Move ?
Little different than it being people you have to work with every day, and that are supposed to be team mates and have your back.
Which makes me wonder where was everyone else in this? Did no one else stand up and tell Incognito that enough was enough? Out of 53 guys on the team, not one thought it was wrong, or did this all happen in seclusion?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I would bet that Incognito has that personality, a combination of being maniacal and charismatic, that makes people feel like they are tougher when they follow him, and intimidated if they don't. Despite that, people inside his group probably were worried about getting on his wrong side, as were those outside of his group. Actually, those guys inside were probably more concerned about being "excommunicated", because they would face harsher repercussions that those who had never associated with him. Regardless, players probably felt that what was happening sucked ...... but at least it wasn't happening to them.
I do think that if what has been reported is true, then Incognito will never play in the NFL again. He's a talented jid, but no one will take that chance of him poisoning their locker room. This was already his last chance.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Seems like a basic pack mentality...at worst you go along with it and at best you ignore it, keep quiet and hope someone else does something about it, in either case acting out of fear of becoming a victim yourself.
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What I find funny is that people expected someone to stand up for themselves against a racist .. You shouldn't have to work in those conditions. If the team knew about this incident and didn't suspend Incognito right away, Martin did the right thing by leaving the team. Nobody should have to work in those conditions. That's prison mentality. Anybody who said that Martin should have stood up for himself in a physical manner would have been Incognitos bitch if they were in Martins shoes.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959 |
Woo,, that dude is off the charts crazy...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431 |
Quote:
Anybody who said that Martin should have stood up for himself in a physical manner would have been Incognitos bitch if they were in Martins shoes.
Garbage ! Look fellas if going yard on some freaks head isn't your idea of stopping an issue like this I get it but there are tons and tons of guys out there that stop this behavior in a quick minute . No internet tough guy routine here but I will say with absolute certainty that there is not a man alive that would make me quit my job because I was being bullied and I'd bet that there are more than a few people on this board that feel the same.
I also understand that men like Incognito are able to recognize the kind of people who for whatever reason are weaker than others and prey on that . As far as the rest of the team not saying anything ? I doubt highly that these big bad athletes were all intimidated by the crazy man considering where a lot of these guys are from.. maybe they just didn't like Martin .
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205 |
Quote:
Anybody who said that Martin should have stood up for himself in a physical manner would have been Incognitos bitch if they were in Martins shoes.
What I was responding to when I said words to that effect was not exactly what this has turned out to be. This situation, in my opinion, is not a personal conflict between individuals - its a legal/criminal situation for the police to be involved with. If Martin had reason to fear for his family's safety, thats extortion. If that's true, then Incognito is not just a crazy jerk, he's a felon.
But to your point of anyone here being Incognito's bitch - thats BS. I would not give him $15 for a trip to Vegas, much less $15,000, and thats with the knowledge he could probably break me in half. What I would do, in the event that I feared facing a physical confrontation with a 300 pound sociopath is make sure I had means to defend myself.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Iwould bet that Martin didn't leave because of a few texts, voice mails, and words said. I would bet there is alot more to this that we don't know, and he possibly did stand up for himself at first and it just continued or got worse. Which may very likely be why Incognito got so nasty.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
I've never been in an NFL locker room, but a lot of people that have are commenting on this issue and I've not heard a single former NFL player state that Martin fighting to defend himself was a good option.. not one. So for now, I'll take their word for it.
yebat' Putin
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Jonathan Martin Leaves Dolphins
After "Incident"
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