DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Jonathan Martin Leaves Dolphins After "Incident"

j/c..

Are people really defending Incognito here?


My first thought when the story came out was "Martin needs to man up" too, but I don't understand how you can read the story about how severe this was and STILL defend Incognito.

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I've not heard a single former NFL player state that Martin fighting to defend himself was a good option.. not one.

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My guess is that you won't . It is not the P.C. thing to say in light of all of the bullying related deaths that have happened . I remember when a Broncos Linebacker spit in the face of Terrell Owens and Howie Long was asked what he would have done if he were spit at like that ? Would he have been angry . Long responded that the guy would have had to have fought him on the field, afterward in the locker room and then getting on his team bus .

I don't really see anyone defending Incognito as much as they are trying to say the victim is the one who should resort to force.

There was a time not so long ago where I would have responded the exact same way on this thread. But not anymore. I grew up in a different time. When reactions weren't so extreme as we see these days.

There was a time when you could simply stand up for yourself and settle matters. The idea that someone may go get a gun and kill you for standing up for yourself was quite remote. It's a different world these days.

When looking at the history of Incognito, one may feel he is quite unstable. If someone actually feels that standing up to someone who you feel may be mentally ill, and that may resort to killing you or a family member is the route to take here, I wish them luck with that strategy moving forward.

Getting back to the "neighbor theme". If you feel that neighbor may commit arson and set your house on fire, harm or injure your family while you are away, is that really the course you take?

I don't have the answer here and don't claim to. However, I do know that if you feel someone may be mentally unstable and you have no idea of the lengths they will go to, how you react to that is not as simple or direct as some would make it seem. It could hold far more dire consequences than some may wish to consider.

JMHO

We've had a handful of posters around here that were/are mentally unstable. Really can make you wonder...

IMO, if things are the way it seems and Martin is indeed the victim here, I think he did the right thing and removed himself from the situation. If someone asks him why didn't you just stand up to Incognito and fight back? His response and the correct one is:

"The dude is nutso. I have no idea what he would do. I have my career, my health and more importantly, I have other people to think about.. like my family!"

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Howie Long was asked what he would have done if he were spit at like that ? Would he have been angry . Long responded that the guy would have had to have fought him on the field, afterward in the locker room and then getting on his team bus .

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That's completely different than prolonged bullying by a senior coworker, teammate, etc.

If somebody threw a drink on me on purpose or spit in my face in a bar, I might be inclined to react the same way... but this is totally different.

Another angle to think about, since incognito has something to gain if Martin looks bad since they're both fighting for playing time on the O-line, he WANTS Martin to start a fight with him.

"Hey position coach, I've been telling you Martin is a loose cannon. He's not a team player. He tried beating my butt after I told him he needed to cover a blitz better. I think you should think about demoting him or cut him outright."

So by fighting back, you could be falling into a trap. You start a fight as a junior member of the line against a guy that's currently on the leadership control team. You just put your career in jeopardy.

I've heard the "just fight him, you're 300+ pounds" statement about 100 times in the past two days. So what, incognito could be playing a setup game against you. Who cares if you can beat him up, you will lose credibility by starting the fight and you can't defend yourself properly because of the role incognito has on the leadership committee.

Incognito is a guard. Martin is a tackle. I don't think this situation would have played out like that.

also, I think it's important to note that if Martin were to have an issue with a teammate that the coaches instructed him to go to the team-elected leadership council.

of course, Incognito was on this council and was the vocal leader of the group.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/columnist/bell/2013/11/05/bell-richie-incognito/3440153/

or he is just a jerk that likes to cause trouble. Im sure we've all worked with people that are like this.

JC


If nothing else I don't think he would be welcomed in an NFL locker room now that it came out that he used the N word in a deragatory manner. Man just screwed up his career.

On NFL Network (I think, or ESPN) they had a story about how Incognito basically went, along with the rest of the OL, to go "pick out" jet skis for Ryan Tannehill to buy for them ..... before they even really got going. His rationale was something along the lines of "He needs to take care of the guys who take care of him". He was asked if that doesn't usually happen after a successful season, and he basically dismissed that, and implied that if Tannehill wanted them to block fr him, then he better pay the bill.

The more that comes out about this guy, the more thankful I am that he's not on our team. he seems like 100% poison.

Thats a big jet ski

Incognito is a talented starting guard. He has been giving Martin crap since he was drafted to be the starting RT. This conspiracy idea is false.

The Riley Cooper thing (I think) is a little different.

It's easier to explain away what Cooper did. "He was drunk", "Heat of the moment, isolated incident, etc." I'm certainly not saying what he did was ok, but it's so much easier to sweep that story under the rug.

There's no way you explain away Incognito's incident. What he said was far worse, consistently over an extended period of time, to a teammate, at work.

Cooper is a dumb racist, Incognito is a lunatic, malicious, dangerous racist.

j/c:

It's impossible to really know what went down in this situation. We were not there and there are so many factors involved. Speculating is fun. It's interesting. But, I think it may be wrong to form a rock solid judgement on this scenario.

I want to bring something up that perhaps you guys have not considered. It no way absolves Incognito. In fact, I think it lends itself to saying he is a class one jerk, but it's just a different angle.

I played w/an offensive lineman who was a constantly on guys. He didn't use race. He used one's sexual preference. He always said it in a joking manner and everyone who heard it laughed. Better to laugh at someone else than be the target, right?

He would say things that were similar to Incognito's message. He would say "I know you are a blank. You wanna blank my blank. I'm going to shove my blank ........etc. I'll make you squeal. Etc, etc. Everyone laughed. It was supposed to be humor. I could see how Incognito's comments were intended that way. I am NOT saying they were, but it is a possibility. Believe me, the guy I am talking about said things that were worse!

Either way............I always thought that particular teammate was a jerk. I actually fought him after he tripped a Don Knotts look-alike in Algebra class. I was suspended, but at least it wasn't during the season. I thought the guy was an insecure bully w/a huge inferiority complex. I couldn't stand him. At best, Incognito is similar.

I also have to add this...........I have a feeling Martin was not well liked by his teammates and probably brought some things on himself. No, I am not condoning any of those things, but man, until you have been in a locker room, you really have no idea how crazy things get. College was way worse than high school and from what I hear, NFL locker rooms can be brutal. Heck, Sapp talked about how he was consistently taped to the goal posts after practices. Sapp is a beast and he was bullied.

It's a complex situation and things are going to drastically change as a result of this story. Locker rooms across the league will be forced to change. It will filter down to college and high school locker rooms. People will overreact. Guys will be punished for being guys. The powers that be will overreact, similar to how the NCAA did w/the targeting rule. Good idea to police things? Yes. Overreaction to the point of becoming stifling? Yes again.

Just some things to think about. Again, not saying I am right or wrong, or if I even believe in everything I just wrote. Just food for thought.

I always wondered about that. He used to say it in a derogatory manner like the other guy would love it. He was a huge guy for a high school player back then. 265 lbs as a junior, he was a year younger than me. That was the mid-70s. He intimidated a lot of people and everyone would laugh at his sick humor. I couldn't stand the jerk.

Btw-----------when we had it out, he wasn't all that tough. After I whupped him, another guy.........who wasn't an athlete---we used to call them "freaks" beat the crap out of him. The bully ended up getting a full ride to Michigan State. Amazed me because he wasn't even very good as a player. He was just big and could run a little bit. I was a RB and believe me, we had way better offensive linemen than him. Those guys made me look good.

Cleveland Browns' Garrett Gilkey, others decry locker room bullying: 'It doesn't matter how old or big you are' | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._special-report

BEREA, Ohio -- Rookie offensive lineman Garrett Gilkey, who was pinned down by bullies as a teen and had a soiled condom thrown in his mouth, was one of several Browns players who railed against the alleged harassment of Dolphins second-year offensive lineman Jonathan Martin by teammate Richie Incognito over the past two seasons.

A distraught Martin left the team and is reportedly undergoing counseling, and Incognito, a nine-year pro with a reputation as a dirty player, has been suspended indefinitely.

"It's pretty tragic,'' said Gilkey, who was forced to switch high schools because the bullying got so bad. "I don't care if you're a 24-year-old NFL lineman, bullying is the same as if you were a 9-year-old girl. It doesn't matter how old or how big you are, no one should have to go through that."

Surrounded by family members in Los Angeles, Martin provided the Dolphins and the NFL with text messages and voicemails from the Pro Bowler containing threats on his life and racial slurs. A transcript of one of the voicemails was obtained by nfl.com and is as follows:

"Hey, wassup, you half (expletive) piece of (expletive). I saw you on Twitter, you been training ten weeks. I'll (expletive) in your (expletive) mouth. I'm gonna slap your (expletive) mouth, I'm gonna slap your real mother across the face (laughter). (Expletive) you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

Gilkey, an anti-bullying advocate who speaks at schools, applauded Martin for having the courage to stand up.

"You look at the overwhelming detrimental affects that have been caused by this bullying and it's really sad,'' said Gilkey. "Just looking at it, it's Martin's year two in the NFL and the problems have been persisting for a very, very long time. Knowing the mental toll that bullying in general takes on a person, I can't imagine what he has gone through the past year and a half.''

Browns linebacker D'Qwell Jackson, a member of the Browns' leadership group, feels it never should've gotten to this point.

"It's a sad story, man,'' said Jackson. "When you have to come into a work environment where you don’t feel comfortable, I think you have to draw a line in the sand. Someone has to step up and make it right for him.''

Jackson stressed that Martin did the right thing by coming forward, despite many of the Dolphins standing up for Incognito.

"I don’t fault the guy,'' said Jackson. "If he felt he was being singled out, you do what you feel is best for you to do. Obviously, in my opinion, he felt frightened. A lot of guys would say you fight the guy. That doesn’t solve anything. I think it could’ve been handled better from within for it to get this big media explosion of this story.

"We're talking about it here and it’s all the way in Miami. It’s definitely an issue that people are going to be more high alert to. You have to be respectful to your teammates. That’s what it comes down to.''

Browns receiver Davone Bess, a five-year veteran of the Dolphins, played with both Incognito and Martin last season, and wasn't aware of the problem. In fact, he got along with both players.

"Richie's never disrespected me,'' said Bess. "I don't not like him. And Jon Martin, he's a good kid. He was a good dude.''

A member of the Dolphins' leadership council, Bess was never approached by Martin last year.

"It didn't come up when I was there,'' said Bess.

Still, Bess, who runs the "The Bess Route Foundation'' to help underprivileged youth, feels the incident warrants discussion.

"I think it's important that we talk about it from the standpoint of kids watching it, and understanding the impact that it can make on the youth and it potentially helping kids,'' he said. "Looking at the positive side of it versus the negative, obviously.''

Jackson said Browns players know they can come to the leadership group here with any concerns and they'll be heard.

"Absolutely,'' he said. "A lot of issues are taken care of within the locker room, before you even get to (coach Rob Chudzinski). We haven't had an issue like that. There’s obviously the rookie hazing where you shave a guy’s head or things like that. That’s all fun. Your hair grows back. We wouldn’t cut off Garrett Gilkey’s hair because he has long hair. You wouldn’t do that to a guy. When a guy feels like he’s being singled out, that’s not acceptable at all.''

Browns right tackle Mitchell Schwartz, who got to know Martin through the draft process, understands why it took him so long to speak up.

"It's hard for him,'' said Schwartz. "If you're getting picked on, you don't necessarily want it to come back worse on you.''

Schwartz is also disturbed by folks who say Martin's a coward for blowing the whistle.

"You don't necessarily want to put the blame on the guy who's getting picked on,'' said Schwartz. "It sends a backwards message to everybody.''

Question is, can Martin set foot back in the testosterone-driven, macho world of an NFL locker room?

"That's the question Jon Martin's going to have to ask himself,'' said Jackson. "That's the million-dollar question. Will he be able to deal with 60 guys, and there’s going to be guys that are going to joke around. Then again, I don’t know the content of it. Was it joking or was it meant for him to be disrespected. What matters is, is Jon Martin OK? Can he deal with working in this type of environment and dealing with the pressure that comes with it? Was he singled out? That's the issue that has to be figured out.''

Jackson recalled an incident in 2009 with rookie defensive back Coye Francies, when several veterans threw him into the cold tub. Francies stormed into the locker room dripping wet with a Gatorade bucket full of ice water and began dousing defenders. He even threw a punch at safety Abe Elam before three veterans led him outside to cool him down.

"It was part of tradition, but he didn't want it,'' said Jackson. "He reacted a certain way and guys left him alone after that. We talked to him like ‘Hey man, it’s all in good fun.' It’s part of the stories you’ll be able to tell your kids and grandkids about.’ He obviously didn’t see it that way and guys addressed it. He understood after that. I saw him in Oakland. He was laughing about it now. Anytime you get a guy that’s not familiar with those type of (things)—you gotta back off, you gotta give a guy respect.''

Jackson cautioned that some players shouldn't be needled in the slightest.

"You never know his background,'' said Jackson. "You never know if a guy has some issues internally. I played with a guy that was here a long time ago that had split personalities. Guys were aware of it, so you treat him like everyone else, but you knew not to press his buttons. Maybe you say a team should be notified.''

He said a grown man should be able to approach another and say "back off and that should be it. If a guy continues to do it, then come to the leadership group. You figure it out. It’s no different than a guy getting into it, say it’s training camp, a guy gets into a scuffle at practice. Every guy knows when he comes in the locker room, that issue is diffused, that’s the end of it. I see it playing out similar in that situation.''

Jackson said the extent of his own rookie hazing involved filling defensive lineman Ted Washington's refrigerator with Red Bull and being duped into baby-sitting linebacker Andra Davis' kids.

"I remember Andra called me over to his house one day and was like, 'Hey I want you to come over and hang out,''' Jackson said. "He and his wife were going out to dinner, and I had to watch the kids. So they call me Uncle D’Qwell. I was afraid to walk into the locker room (but) it was all in good fun. When a guy feels offended, that’s when you should take a step back.''

Gilkey, who plans to become a youth minister, once had his baseball glove urinated in and another time was booed in front of the entire school when he received a scholastic award. He changed high schools and grew from a scrawny redhead into a beefy, 6-6, 318-pound pro lineman, but he'll never forget the torment.

"I can't help but feel for Martin, knowing that I've felt that battle growing up,'' he said. "I know that struggle and I can't imagine in such a high-stress job having to go through that. It's one thing when you're a little kid and you go to your parents back at home. In the NFL, your familiarities are small and the likelihood of having family and friends near you and by you is very small.''

"A team is supposed to be a unit. It's supposed to function together as one and those feelings of separation can be very damaging and evidently it's just a matter of time when the sponge has to release."

He noted the difference between normal locker room horseplay among friends and bullying.

"You're going to pick on your little brother like you do (but) when there is no relationship in the context it creates bullying,'' he said. "In this case it sounds like a one-sided relationship.''

He wasn't surprised to hear that Incognito was bullied himself as a youngster.

"It can be a vicious circle,'' he said. "Later on you will see kids who were bullied will bully other children because of that inner struggle for affirmation.''

Fortunately for Gilkey, he landed in a functional locker room, where bullying neither takes place nor would be tolerated.

"Whether it's the offensive line, the defensive line or the receiving corps everyone has been great,'' he said. "It's been a very healthy environment. I feel like they are big brothers I never had. It's very encouraging.''

He wishes it could've been the same for Jonathan Martin.

A quote from the above story kinda really says it all .....



"Richie's never disrespected me,'' said Bess. "I don't not like him. And Jon Martin, he's a good kid. He was a good dude.''


"I don't not like him" ......... Wow ..... that's a backhanded compliment if ever there was one.

You know ..... Itw as reported that the Browns coaches under Mangini abused Colt McCoy to try and toughen him up mentally and emotionally. It seems liek they almost tortured him. I thought that it was somewhat necessary to try to get him to a point where he could handle things ..... but maybe I was wrong about that. I do think that NFL players, especially QBs, have to be mentally tough .... but I think that the Browns coaches may have stepped well over the line with McCoy. I think that I was wrong as far as how they treated him. I do think that he needed to be toughened up, but I think that they went about it in the wrong way.

I read the following article about how the Dolphins coaches asked Incognito to toughen Martin up ..... but I think that there is a difference between making a guy tougher, and abusing him. I think that the coaches may have had good intentions, but put the wrong guy in charge, and failed to observe and follow up on what he was doing.

Report: Dolphins coaches asked Incognito to toughen Martin up - CBSSports.com
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...ughen-martin-up

The Dolphins coaching staff didn't tell Richie Incognito to bully Jonathan Martin, but they did ask Incognito to toughen Martin up, according to a report from the South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

After Martin missed a voluntary workout last spring, the Dolphins coaching staff approached Incognito and asked him to 'toughen up' Martin, according to the report. There were no specific members of the Miami coaching staff named in the report.

According to the Sun-Sentinel, Incognito may have taken the orders too far. Incognito has been accused of texting racial slurs to Martin, threatening to harm Martin's family members and saying he would defecate in Martin's mouth.

Philbin and his staff will obviously be in hot water if the NFL's investigation turns up any evidence that suggests the Dolphins coaching staff has anything to do with Incognito's bullying.

In a press conference on Monday, Philbin said that anything that happens under his watch is his responsibility.

"I want you to know as the head coach of the Miami Dolphins I am in charge of the workplace atmosphere," Philbin said. "Since April 10, 2012 when the players first came here and I was the head coach, every decision I've made and everything we've done to the facility has been done with one thing in mind, and that is to help our players and our organization reach their full potential. Any type of conduct, behavior that detracts from that behavior is not acceptable and is not tolerated."

Incognito is currently on indefinite suspension from the team. Martin is currently in Los Angeles receiving counseling and there's no timetable on when or if Martin will return to the Dolphins.

Eric Mangini was a grade A doucher. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

That's some of the dumbest stuff I've ever heard. Has toughening someone up by being an <insert word you find fitting here>, while still being a mentor or a friend to said person, actually work outside of a situation where not working well meant death?


Also, glad to hear about DQ's hazing. I always loved Davis as a linebacker and I'm extremely happy to hear that DQ's most memorable hazing was babysitting his kids (Though maybe DQ is suppressing memories).

And what Gilkey said sounds more like what high school TV soap opera dramas are made out of. Getting a used condom shoved in your mouth? Getting booed by the entire school for a scholastic award? Damn. Kids are cruel sometimes.

JC

There is another video of him in a bar with his shirt off cussing and dropping racial slurs. Obviously I cant post it, but its easily available with a quick google foo.

There have been multiple people on the team who were contributors but had mental issues.

No reason to drag their names around after the fact.

Split personality is pretty rare is why I'm curious about it.

Same with the Coye Francies thing, wonder if it had anything to do with him being moved.

And yeah I was wrong about Ben Gay. He had some issues but that wasn't it.

What DQ is saying, he could even have meant bipolar, which isn't unusual.