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If you wish to compare Apples to Oranges and state them as a FACT for this regime...that was my point bringing in RANDY as an Obvious that it isn't the same. Well possibly different. Holmgren was a Coach, GM and both he had a different background than Banner. Holmbren came right out and said he would be hands on with the QB...how can you sit there and state as a fact that Banner is going to do the same. ======================================================= I can sit here and state what I think is the case no differently than you can sit there and state as fact what you think. Let's not split hairs here. Holmgren was president. He hired the GM and coach. He stepped in and drafted Weeden in the first round against what Heckert wanted to do. Will things go down any differently than Holmgren and Heckert? Time will tell as decisions are made. Maybe they will all be in agreement on the choices. Maybe I am wrong but you seem to imply that Lombardi will the decision maker and Banner will go along. I do not see it that way. Lombardi will have his say. Banner may or may not agree. If Banner does not agree he will do as he sees fit. No different than Holmgren did. Staff provide opinions and recommendations. There is a decision maker and it is Banner. Haslam hired him to be that man with that responsibility. That is why his title is president and Lombardi's title is GM. As far as Manziel I see him pretty much the same as this guy does: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Is-Johnny-Manziel-a-top-NFL-quarterback-prospect.html A risk that may pan out if he gets his mind right. His own father has made statements about his lack of maturity. In this article his work ethic is questioned. I smell high risk with possible reward. There is still along way till the draft. I may change my mind over time as new information comes to light.
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This seems to me to be a pretty accurate article about Manziel as a NFL prospect:
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Is-Johnny-Manziel-a-top-NFL-quarterback-prospect.html
That's an interesting article, thanks for posting it.
OK so I decided to watch some videos of Johnny M earlier today. I came away thinking wow, what a freakin athlete he is. Then I thought of him having guys like our Dline coming after him in the NFL and I saw shades of RGIII getting crunched.
I think the question I have with him is the same question I had with RGIII. That being, will his game translate to the NFL and if so, can he take the pounding? I think those are Legit questions.
I still would have taken RGIII, just didn't want to give away the ship to get him. At least at this point, I'd take the same stance with JM
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I think (hope) that by the end of this season, we can look at Campbell and say, hey, if the guy we believe in isn't in this draft, we don't have to reach because of Campbell. He can run the show until the right guy that we can all agree on comes along.
I certainly hope after that body of work, that can be the conclusion reached. I however hope this FO doesn't reach for a QB no matter the outcome. I agree that they should wait to get the best value for the pick (s) and find the answer the first time. We have seen how getting it wrong simply costs you without any reward. Such a pick only wastes an opportunity to address another position with a much better solution.
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I hope that's what happens. I believe we have two decent choices at QB on this team right now. Hoyer and Campbell. I wish we'd have seen more of Hoyer but what I saw gave me hope that he can do the job up to a point.
I simply don't believe 2 games is enough evidence to base my hopes upon. It would be a fine thing, but I believe the jury is far from out in that regard.
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I just don't want us to make a rash decision. I can live another year without a franchise QB if we have these two and together than can get us through the year.
I can live with that also. They have a lot riding on getting the QB pick right the first time. Unless they use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a prospect. That's simply looking at raw talent in hopes it can develop. QB's are highly sought after and everyone pays a little too much due to the position.
So if they don't see what they see as an iron clad answer, I can see such a pick as a legitimate attempt to upgrade the position and not fault them for it.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I'm not saying I agree or disagree with him on Manziel... but just remember that last year, this guy said Ryan Nassib was the best player in the draft. Of course, to this point Nassib hasn't gotten a chance to prove himself in a real game, but he completed less than 50%of his passes in each one of the three preseason games he appeared in and is currently 3rd string QB behind Eli and the legendary Curtis Painter.
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Back to the question of the thread.
I still believe we have seen two QB's with very short windows with which to draw conclusions.
You pointed out that you believe the coaching staff was "surprised" by Campbell's production. I disagreed with you when it pertains to the short term. I believe many QB's can come in and look good for a few games until your opponents get a good look and some film on them in a new system.
I'm not so sure however if they can maintain that level of production moving forward for any length of time.
So I'm not really sure we have the answer of a QB that can win with any consistently going forward next year. I certainly can't say that about Hoyer given a very small sample size of two games. I also feel that we'll have to see what Campbell can do the rest of the way before he actually answers that question.
What we do know is with average or above QB play, this team has the talent to win. What we don't know is if we have a QB on the roster who can give us such play for any extended period of time....... yet.
JMHO
You might be right, but we do know one thing. Weeden isn't the answer. Period. We'll trade him if we can or cut him if we can't. One thing that we do know is that we'll have a QB replacement for Weeden that is more competent than him next season.
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seem to imply that Lombardi will the decision maker and Banner will go along. I'll be brief cause its starting to be a dead horse. But that is not what I implied. I don't know why posters to make their positions better - will reform another posters opinion and state it as what I or others said.
My implication is that Lombardi has Banner's trust. Banner will make the decision after listening to the committee I'm sure. But Lombardi will have his astute attention in this very important evaluation.
Still last thing on Manziel you had questioned his Leadership skills to be BAD...don't wish to put words in your mouth especially after what I said...lol  but you did imply that it was a negative. This kid reeks of Leadership. Again I can care less what article you dig up from a BOZO...I'm going on what I see.
On the RG3 thing...if you watch (his last game for example) Every time he had over 2 seconds to throw the ball it was accurate and a completion. HE HAS ONE OF THE WORST OLs for pass protection and is why he is getting killed. Also I think the game has passed Shanahan by. Exposing his QB in such a spread Offense - it was why the Run n Shoot back in the day did not catch on. Cause it exposes the QB to tremendous pressure and HITS...it has nothing to do with RG3 it has to do with the dumb concept being ran. As stated whoever we get we will not be running the College teams offense...on target for this thread is that between Hoyer (who I think will get the nod even with the small data base) and Campbell there will not be a need to start said QB immediately especially if we stand pat n take one Mid to late first round. Let him learn the NFL game, let him Learn our OFFENSE as I was watching the Manziel game last night - I'm telling my son, man I wish they would let him take some snaps from Center. But they mostly play 5! FIVE WRS and expose the QB - we will not be running that O here. Only when we are behind and late in the game. And this applies to many of the QBs today from college. We cannot just look at Stanford and Wisconsin QBs...we have to evaluate the talent and then conform it to our OFFENSE.
With our two QBs its a given. My perfect scenario with OUR QB situation is that Campbell continues to do good things and win. This will bring much attention to him. So that draft day we are talking about a possible trade for an early 2nd round pick...especially if we have Hoyer as well as another QB from the first round. So Weeden will be the #2 but as we know from our guys that probably really means #3 as was Campbell situation this year in regards the true Depth Chart.
This doesn't mean I dislike Campbell. This means he created a lot of value for a very modest investment we made. I do not think Campbell will continue to be "GREAT" that it will be a career year type of thing. Also the fact that the QB will be a TEMP till the new kid whoever he is learns. NOTE if it turns out Hoyer is a Brees/Rivers (who was an Overall #4) scenario great so the turnover will have to wait.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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When there are articles written about the character, work ethic, "off field" issues, drugs, DUI, etc. about a player usually I cringe. Because in most cases I have no way to verify the information. I do not like to make personal judgements on guys unless there are verifiable facts. When there are repeated charges and accusations then you start to get suspicious. When they lead to factual information then it has to be considered.
The one thing I do know is that a true NFL franchise quarterback has to be able to lead men. That is a 24 hour, 7 day a week job. It is done before practice, during practice, and after practice. Guys like Peyton, Brady, Brees , Wilson, and Luck perform on the field by preparation all week long. There is only one way to lead and that is by example, that comes through total commitment.
At this point I am suspicious about Manziel. He does some unreal things on the college field. But you have to remember only a small percentage of college players make it to the Pros. At this point in time there is enough surrounding Manziel that makes me nervous about him in the NFL.
This decision on the future quarterback of the Cleveland Browns is a super sized mega deal. I want the right guy. I want the character factor to be a non issue. I want a guy who is going to be totally committed.
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Got it...well spoken by the way and I understand your position.
I'm of the thought process that Manziel is a kid...what is he barely 20 if not 19? When all this IMMATURITY happened. I see his leadership on the field. We are not nor do I think will for a long long time be in a position to pick top 5 again. Let alone TOP 1 which we could not with recent struggling teams.
I want TALENT First and foremost. Yeah of course I don't wish a kid who is a Train Wreck about to happen. I don't see that with Manziel - I see him as THE YOUNGEST Heisman winner Ever??? falling into some party traps...once football came back to him he's been on track again!
But there is going to have to be a negative that teams will frown on and still be GREAT (A Super Star as Ron Wolf has stated a Championship Teams needs two Superstars. HC n QB!).
If not Manziel then somebody else. Truly in Lombardi's hands I entrust this - as well as the "COMMITTEE" - besides do we even have a choice 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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Are you concerned about his size? I am. He's listed as 5-11, 190-something. I'm afraid he's gonna get killed taking hits from guys much bigger than him, and just as fast - or faster.
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Quote:
Are you concerned about his size? I am. He's listed as 5-11, 190-something. I'm afraid he's gonna get killed taking hits from guys much bigger than him, and just as fast - or faster.
Valid point. Even Russell Wilson, who is a pretty small QB - is almost 20lbs heavier than 190lb. Believe he's listed @ 206. Colt McCoy is even in that 215-220lb range.
I am sure the offseason weight program would add a considerable amount of mass to him though. Not sure of 20lbs or so.
*EDIT*
ESPN has Manziel listed at 210lbs and 6'1''. Not sure where the 190lbs came from.
http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/_/id/517475/
Last edited by Dawg_LB; 11/10/13 11:39 AM.
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You might be right, but we do know one thing. Weeden isn't the answer. Period. We'll trade him if we can or cut him if we can't. One thing that we do know is that we'll have a QB replacement for Weeden that is more competent than him next season.
You are certainly right there. There is no question that both Hoyer and Campbell are more qualified to be our starting QB than Weeden is.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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NOTE if it turns out Hoyer is a Brees/Rivers (who was an Overall #4) scenario great so the turnover will have to wait.
In which case you could have a Rogers-type situation where the young QB gets a couple of years to watch & study. I really think that is why he came out of the gate doing so well. By the time he became the starter he knew the system and who to throw to instinctively.
I'd be down with that.
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Or it could just be that Rodgers was already going to be good.
I'm in the camp that you learn by playing. I think the sitting thing is overrated.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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On the other hand .....
A guy like Hoyer has said that sitting helped him develop a great deal.
I think that very few rookie QBs are ready to be thrown into the deep end right away. I think that just enough do so successfully that it really harms a great deal other QBs who would really benefit from learning on the sidelines.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think that very few rookie QBs are ready to be thrown into the deep end right away. I think that just enough do so successfully that it really harms a great deal other QBs who would really benefit from learning on the sidelines.
It is becoming more popular these rookie qbs coming in and playing good. It does harm, and I am sure pressures, the others that as you said - could and would benefit from riding the sideline for a bit...
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I really think that the QB, especially, needs to acclimate to the NFL lifestyle along with learning, essentially, every other position on offense as well as his own job. Other players can break in on special teams, while contributing in limited ways on their respective units .... but the QB either plays, or doesn't play.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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JC on you EO..
I am on the draft BPA with our first two picks and snagging Aaron Murray in the 2nd Rd.. See him with the potential to be a GREAT QB with some clipboard time.. Strong arm, can make all of the throws and would excel in this offense with the coaching staff we have in place..
JMHO but I see his current 3rd grade climbing to late 1st after a strong Sr Bowl and Combine showing..
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Quote:
Or it could just be that Rodgers was already going to be good.
I'm in the camp that you learn by playing. I think the sitting thing is overrated.
I'm in the everyone is different camp. Have you seen the few times that Rodgers played before McCarthy got there? Awful comes to mind. His observing and McCarthy had a lot to do with his success IMO.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I think (hope) that by the end of this season, we can look at Campbell and say, hey, if the guy we believe in isn't in this draft, we don't have to reach because of Campbell. He can run the show until the right guy that we can all agree on comes along.
I agree. I also think we can include Hoyer in the mix. Either way I think we have enough at QB to keep us from making stupid decisions and reaching. I don't think we have to move up for a QB unless we want Bridgewater, and that will take a move all the way to the top, and I sure hope that doesn't happen( I don't think Jville moves out for almost any price).
Let the draft come to us.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Let the draft come to us.
That's fine, in theory, but obviously it depends on where you finish, who you're targeting, and what your needs are...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Quote:
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Let the draft come to us.
That's fine, in theory, but obviously it depends on where you finish, who you're targeting, and what your needs are...
In this case i think it is more than theory. The point being that IMO there isn't a QB worth moving up for after Bridgewater, and I don't even want to consider the cost of that. After him I see 4-5 guys who are about the same in so far as projectability, even if some have different types of games.
Now, just to be clear, if we jump up a few slots, I am ok with that. That is more or less letting the draft come to you. Take it as far as you can to keep the price down, but I sure hope we aren't throwing 2 first rounders and something else to move up because I don't think we suck at the QB position, and I just don't see us moving up for any other position unless we are talking about trading some 4th rounders to move back in to the 3rd or something like that.
Is our QB play so bad we need to be talking about trading both first rounders to make the move? Me, I don't think so.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I think that the play of Campbell, combined with the earlier play of Hoyer, gives the Browns a situation where they don't have to make desperation moves. If there is not a QB they like, they may be able to trade down from their higher 1st round pick, and maybe pick up an additional 1st round pick in next year's draft.
Campbell and Hoyer have given the Browns a situation where they can afford to sit a rookie and allow him to develop. Given that, if they cannot find the right guy in this draft, they have the ability to pick up assets in the following draft instead.
The Browns hold a strong hand as it stands right now.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Is our QB play so bad we need to be talking about trading both first rounders to make the move? Me, I don't think so.
I think the jury is still out on that to a degree. I don't believe that 2 starts by Hoyer and what little we have seen of Campbell actually answer that question with any certainty.
Yet I really don't believe that matters very much. I don't believe they felt Weeden was the answer going into this year and it didn't cause them to panic and reach for a QB in the last draft.
I believe what they will or won't do will be based solely on what they see in this draft class. Like yourself, I don't see anyone other than maybe Bridgewater being worthy of selling the farm to get. And I'm not even sold on that one.
However, I'm not sure what they see. I believe if they see "their guy" sitting there, they may very well move up to get him. I don't buy into the reasoning that you sit by and have a group of QB's you're willing to choose from as your QB of the future. We've all seen the term BPA, but I don't think that works with BQA ( best QB available )
I believe if you feel there is one target to answer the franchise QB position, you go all in to get him. If you don't, you wait for a later round project to try to develop.
Now if they feel they can sit where they are at and get "their guy", I believe they will. If they feel they can't, they won't IMO. And I certainly don't feel anything Campbell or Hoyer have done or even will do will change their draft board or their understanding that we need a franchise QB.
I feel everything is contingent on how they have the QB's in this draft class ranked and if they feel they can land their QB of the future in this draft. If they agree with us that no QB is worthy of moving up for, I feel they'll do as you say. But by letting the draft fall to us, I think that means BPA not BQA.
But I don't feel this years QB play will dictate anything in that regard. If they feel they're better served to wait until next year, I feel that's the path they will follow.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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J/C
If Hoyer is that good, why didnt we see it in pre-season? I dont know, but there has to be a reason he was #3.
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Hoyer went 10/14 for 100 yards and a TD in our 1st preseason game against the Rams.
He went 1/3 for 19 yards in the 2nd game.
In the 3rd game, he went 2/4 for 11 yards and an INT.
He went 24/35 for 307 yards, with a TD and 2 INT in the 4th game. While he did have Gordon for part of the game, for the most part he threw to guys like Gurley, and Nelson, Smelley, Davis, Edwards, etc.
While he wasn't great in the preseason, he wasn't awful. He showed promise in that final preseason game while playing with guys who didn't make the final roster.
He was worth a look when Weeden went down with an injury. Plus, he supposedly showed a lot in practices that made the coaching staff want to see what he could do in real games.
Sometimes you get lucky with a player. If nothing else, Hoyer has shown that he can be a quality backup/spot starter, who can win games if forced into action.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Let the draft come to us.
That's fine, in theory, but obviously it depends on where you finish, who you're targeting, and what your needs are...
In this case i think it is more than theory. The point being that IMO there isn't a QB worth moving up for after Bridgewater, and I don't even want to consider the cost of that. After him I see 4-5 guys who are about the same in so far as projectability, even if some have different types of games.
Now, just to be clear, if we jump up a few slots, I am ok with that. That is more or less letting the draft come to you. Take it as far as you can to keep the price down, but I sure hope we aren't throwing 2 first rounders and something else to move up because I don't think we suck at the QB position, and I just don't see us moving up for any other position unless we are talking about trading some 4th rounders to move back in to the 3rd or something like that.
Is our QB play so bad we need to be talking about trading both first rounders to make the move? Me, I don't think so.
Our current QB triad of Campbell-Hoyer-Weeden (or 2014 draft pick) is at least adequate at a minimum, with unknown potential.I agree with you on the "quality" QB candidates coming out, and I will leave the drafting to our FO (  ) as they and our coaching staff knows which direction they want/need to go. Personally, I hope, as you I believe, that we don't sell the farm for a QB unless it is for the #1 guy (whomever that is). If our FO is OK with our current QB package, that is good and we can proceed to fill some holes with the entire draft. Next draft should be VERY interesting, and I cannot remember one that I awaited with such anticipation...
Last edited by bbrowns32; 11/11/13 12:50 PM.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Got it...well spoken by the way and I understand your position.
I'm of the thought process that Manziel is a kid...what is he barely 20 if not 19? When all this IMMATURITY happened. I see his leadership on the field. We are not nor do I think will for a long long time be in a position to pick top 5 again. Let alone TOP 1 which we could not with recent struggling teams.
I want TALENT First and foremost. Yeah of course I don't wish a kid who is a Train Wreck about to happen. I don't see that with Manziel - I see him as THE YOUNGEST Heisman winner Ever??? falling into some party traps...once football came back to him he's been on track again!
But there is going to have to be a negative that teams will frown on and still be GREAT (A Super Star as Ron Wolf has stated a Championship Teams needs two Superstars. HC n QB!).
If not Manziel then somebody else. Truly in Lombardi's hands I entrust this - as well as the "COMMITTEE" - besides do we even have a choice
No, I don't think we do have a choice.
But, are we talking our top ten pick or the Indy pick?
Gambling on Manziel seems to provide the possibility of a huge payoff if the best case scenario falls into place. Unlike Weeden and Quinn. Manziel can really play football. Quinn could play football against Navy and Purdue. Weeden never looked the part, even when he beat Stanford in that bcs bowl game.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
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Dawg Talker
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Probably Kaepernick.
I have no idea why.
made the Superbowl last year and is all inked up. he'd be my guess too.
side note: absolutely love that he has "my gift" on the inside of this throwing arm and "is my curse" on the inside of his non-throwing arm. always great to display psalms and use some humor in it. well played.
Bingo, you guys got it.
Couldn't figure it out myself. When I asked them a few days later the Super Bowl immediately popped up, but no tat thing. In my area, guys getting all tatted up started to fade about three years ago.
There were times at the beginning of this season where he was staying in the pocket and snapping off 60 mph lazers on a dime. The announcers made big productions about them. That, his mobility, his ability to run, and the Super Bowl may have been what stuck in their minds.
Funny thing is, he would probably be the least favorite of the four considering where we live. During the four years he played against Boise State he had two really bad games, and three of them included meltdowns with his head coach. He also led Nevada to a win that prevented Boise from playing in a bcs bowl.
Harbaugh has done a job with that kid.
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Dawg Talker
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bbrowns
Do you think Weeden will be on the roster next year?
Expectations that Hoyer will be the same QB in August, that he was this year, doesn't jive with current rehab beliefs. Although these guys are coming back in 8 months, they aren't playing/moving at a high level until at least the following year.
We are going to do something.
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Legend
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But, are we talking our top ten pick or the Indy pick?
You really think we'll be drafting in the top 10?
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Legend
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But, are we talking our top ten pick or the Indy pick?
You really think we'll be drafting in the top 10?
It's hard to remember that we don't have to pick in the top ten every year.
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Legend
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But, are we talking our top ten pick  ??? top 10 pick...It might happen you never know but as it looks now we will be out of that top 10 pick happy to say odds are we won't be close.
I also think the Gamble on Manziel is worth it because of our current QB situation with Hoyer n now Campbell. Manziel or for that matter any QB we draft can have the luxury of sitting and learning.
I say Manziel only cause I truly believe he has that "IT" factor and I'm not talking about Tebow It Factor...lol
He also could very well drop to our slot due to his size and the maturity thing??? but mostly Size.
Look what happened to Flutie...of course Manziel is bigger still the NFL are snobs regarding first round QBs...its why Brees went in the 2nd round. All I'm saying if a great QB drops a bit it could be Manziel. Again also as I noted we did show some interest in scouting Manziel. At the end of things the closer to Draft day the less we can even guess at this stuff cause of all the miss information. Right now again no choice but I will give Lombardi his space to do it right! I like his decisions on Hoyer n Campbell. Can this be the ONE??? lol
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Hall of Famer
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bbrowns
Do you think Weeden will be on the roster next year?
Expectations that Hoyer will be the same QB in August, that he was this year, doesn't jive with current rehab beliefs. Although these guys are coming back in 8 months, they aren't playing/moving at a high level until at least the following year.
We are going to do something.
Do I think Weeden will be on the roster next year? Likely not, unless there is a problem with Hoyer's rehab. Would you want to start the season next year with a QB triad of Campbell-2014 draftee-Hoyer (not fully recovered)? Should that be the case, then I believe there is a strong possibilty that Weeden makes our training camp next year. An alternate scenario is that we pull off a major trade for a veteran starter or pick up one in FA (Cutler?). There are several directions we could go here, but the one I prefer is Campbell-Hoyer-draftee assuming Hoyer is fully recovered.
With all due respect....your move.
Last edited by bbrowns32; 11/11/13 05:49 PM.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I think 6 wins still puts us in the top ten.
I get the feeling that teams like the Raiders, Rams, Bills, Falcons, etc... instead of winning 3 or 4 are all going to be in the 5-7 win range. If either of the Texans, Redskins, and Giants get even a small win streak together then I think 6 wins will get us in there easily.
I get what you are saying, although it looks like we are thin on talent, we are playing well as units and as a team. We are probably looking at 7 wins the way we are playing right now, maybe even 8. Outside of our division we have the Jags, Patriots, Jets, and Bears. But, we can beat anybody.
If we pick outside of the top ten, then....
?
People are saying that Manziel isn't going till mid or late 1st. Do you trust that? Every year we get these QB's with second round grades and they end up going top 15. The hand size issue is actually a big deal. At the combine, if he measures out close to 10 then the game changes. If he has small hands like one of you said, then Browns stadium in December, velocity/arm strength, fumbling and avoiding the strip, all that doesn't bode well. Can Manziel become an elite quarterback in the NFL? Obviously, yes. Will he be lucky enough to be put into the perfect situation, with the perfect coach (ie Kapernick)? Even if he is lucky enough, will he mature? Will his character become an issue?
I say we should roll the dice, but I would never give up both 1st rounders in order to do it.
Last edited by Olskool711; 11/11/13 06:13 PM.
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I say we should roll the dice, but I would never give up both 1st rounders in order to do it.
IF, if, the FO really is sold on Johnny Football being "the guy" to lead our team for the next 10 years, do you not believe he isn't worth a mid and a late 1st pick? As much as I wouldn't want to trade up, if you feel your targeted player has "Franchise" written all over him, do you not go all-in?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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J/C
If Hoyer is that good, why didnt we see it in pre-season? I dont know, but there has to be a reason he was #3.
Weeden looked pretty solid on preseason, and blew in the regular season. Preseason doesn't always mean much as far as talent observation goes.
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I think its kinda like the Mangini thing.
The organization had to allow the Weeden deal to run its course. They knew, but they couldn't be 100% sure, and they had all of us to answer to with this guy being a freakin 1st round pick. You never know, some guys work their tail off, polish up their weaknesses, spend all day in the film room, and turn it around.
I don't think Weeden ever wanted it bad enough to do what it takes.
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Your key words are "really sold on him being the guy"
That is different than there is a chance he could be the guy.
I think the best Johnny Football can get is chance. Nobody is sold. Not with his maturity at this stage.
I'm getting old. If there's a real chance, then there's hope. I never saw a chance concerning Couch, Quinn, Weeden. Never got that feeling. I just hoped I would be wrong.
Manziel could turn out to be a winner-- could turn out to be a bum.
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Legend
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Legend
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People are saying that Manziel isn't going till mid or late 1st. Do you trust that? Every year we get these QB's with second round grades and they end up going top 15.
And they never work out. From Ponder to Tebow and a few in between.. so if somebody wants to jump us for him, I say we let him go... this is based on a general consensus that he is a second round talent.
If, as you say, he is generally considered a top 10 pick, and if the Browns believe he is THE guy, then you go get him... but if I'm early to mid teens and somebody wants to take a gamble to jump over us to get a 2nd round talent, let them.
A lot will happen between now and then as draft order becomes more clear and QB interest becomes more clear.. for now there are more questions than answers but it's going to be fun to watch it play out.. this is one we have to get right.. just like the last 5 that we did NOT get right. 
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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I believe what they will or won't do will be based solely on what they see in this draft class. Like yourself, I don't see anyone other than maybe Bridgewater being worthy of selling the farm to get. And I'm not even sold on that one.
This is a very trick situation. It's so hard to project how these Spread QBs will transition to the NFL. They have one read. They don't have to deal w/all the reading of defenses and coverages like NFL QBs have.
It typically takes these guys a bit of time to transition. There have been a couple of exceptions--Newton and RGIII, but even both those guys regressed in their second seasons.
I am having a very difficult time getting a read on this year's group of qbs, because I just don't see them reading coverages. It's not their fault......they aren't asked to. But, as we have seen firsthand w/Weeden, if you can't read coverages, you are going to struggle.
A lot of people seem to be down on Brdigewater, but I still think he is the safest pick. And I agree w/you that he hasn't dazzled me as much as he first did. Not sure if he has the "it" factor.
I do need to add this.........I keep reading there "aren't any Andrew Luck's in this draft." Well, I don't know if there ever were or if there ever will be again. The guy was the perfect qb coming out. I was pimping him as a freshman, more because of what Harbaugh was saying about him than anything else.
I am leaning towards hoping we don't trade both first round picks for a qb. While Hoyer and Campbell don't have a huge sample size, it's still more than anyone collegiate qb we bring in. On the other hand, we are almost certainly going to use one of those first round picks on a qb. I'm okay w/that, but man, I hope it doesn't backfire in our faces---- again!
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