|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,770
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,770 |
Here is a list from dj's earlier post...... Quote:
Here's the list of who Lombo liked and pimped out of College in recent drafts:
Bradford
Henne
Gabbert
Pat White
J.Russell
He also didn't like the Kaepernick selection and would have passed on Cam Newton
And when it comes to Trent, there is a difference in guys like McShay and Kyper when compared to NFL GM's...... GM's build NFL teams.
I will give kudos to Vers on this one. He didn't think Trent was that special and thought we should trade down. I even debated that point with him. Maybe Vers would make a better GM?
So right now, Lombardi isn't a "peer" of any of those guys. NFL GM's are supposedly the "top 32 talent evaluators in the nation".
If not, we missed out on someone who is better. He also had two previous stints in the NFL as a GM that doesn't look well.
So like I said, there is a reasonable body of work for people to have some concern. It all could work out fine. That's yet to be determined.
Which is far more the point. for the most part, people haven't really attacked Lombardi like they did when he was hired. somehow a great many have changed their minds. And that's fine. But people who sit and act as if people are simply questioning his abilities based on hate and not a track record that makes those concerns legitimate are grasping at their own straws IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469 |
sigh...
once again, instead of talking about playoffs or potential wild card spots, we are discussing how well our GM will be able to draft.
this freakin' sucks.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093 |
Quote:
So right now, Lombardi isn't a "peer" of any of those guys. NFL GM's are supposedly the "top 32 talent evaluators in the nation".
But he was a GM before, right? I believe I've seen lists on this board of players he evaluated during that time. These lists always come with the same commentary: 1. Lombardi liked X, 2. X sucked, 3. therefore, Lombardi is bad at evaluating talent. My point is that this chain of reasoning is invalid if it does not take into account how the players Lombardi liked were evaluated by other GMs. Same logic applies to his time as merely a commentator. Unless his evaluations are put up against the same evaluations by other members of his profession, isolated judgments about Lombardi's evaluations of ultimately disappointing players proves nothing.
Here's an example of how this should go, in case I'm not being clear enough.
1. Pick a player Lombardi evaluated either positively or negatively.
2. Accumulate a representative sample of evaluations for that player made by Lombardi's peers. When he was a GM, it would be evaluations by other GMs. When he was a commentator, it would be evaluations by other commentators.
3. Determine what counts as a good, bad, and neutral evaluation.
3. Chart the divergence of evaluations.
4. Instances where a consensus is had for a player must be thrown out. Lombardi might have been wrong about a player, but what does that matter if everyone else, or most everyone else, were wrong as well?
5. For players where evaluations are mixed, chart how many times Lombardi makes the right evaluation. This is the only way to get an accurate view of Lombardi as a talent evaluator.
I don't know how it would turn out. It could be that the results would validate what has already been said about the guy. But anyone who makes a judgment about Lombardi's evaluation skills without having followed this process is pedaling BS.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
That is one hell of a scientific method and I heartily endorse this protocol.  Of course, it takes too much study so it will never be done. But, in my opinion, you are correct in it being the only valid, accurate way to evaluate a talent evaluator. Wish I'd have thought of it. I'd feel the smarter for it.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469 |
is this the same guy that took that kicker in the 1st round, was that true?
cause of it is, thats all the evaluation i need to know.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865 |
Quote:
is this the same guy that took that kicker in the 1st round, was that true?
cause of it is, thats all the evaluation i need to know.
Sabastian Janakowski right? Remember something, under Al Davis, I'm not sure anyone with the Title GM had any final say in anything. It should also be noted that he was the 3rd kicker taken in the first round over the years. So the Raiders with either Davis or Lombardi picking weren't the first to do that.
I should also point out that 14 years later, he's still in the league and still with the Raiders.
This isn't to say that I think taking a kicker is the smartest thing to take in the 1st round, but they had a pretty decent team back then. In fact, two years later, they were in the Superbowl.
So if you got that strong a team and you are a kicker short, then maybe it's ok.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,190
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,190 |
Thought this was interesting regarding QB's going forward:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-ga...op-overall-pick
Casserly is one of the few talking heads that I respect.
Derek Carr is somebody I am going to start to break down in the weeks ahead. There has to be some benefit to the experience he gained watching what his brother went through.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469 |
Quote:
Thought this was interesting regarding QB's going forward:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-ga...op-overall-pick
Casserly is one of the few talking heads that I respect.
Derek Carr is somebody I am going to start to break down in the weeks ahead. There has to be some benefit to the experience he gained watching what his brother went through.
i don't much about Derek, but David? i felt bad for that dude. he had andre johnson, but never the time needed to throw it too him, wasn't he the most sacked QB back to back years at one point?
Casserly nailed it. you don't draft a QB #1 overall or period on the 1st round if you don't even have the line to protect. i wouldn't say we are in the same situation, but hoyer was still getting sacked atleast 3 times a game even with his quick release.
we need a G, and we now need a RT. and if we don't plan on addressing those 2 things for whatever reason in the FA or not until later rounds of the draft, than we have no business drafting a pocket QB.
he better be mobile. quite mobile.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 380
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 380 |
Quote:
Quote:
Thought this was interesting regarding QB's going forward:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-ga...op-overall-pick
Casserly is one of the few talking heads that I respect.
Derek Carr is somebody I am going to start to break down in the weeks ahead. There has to be some benefit to the experience he gained watching what his brother went through.
i don't much about Derek, but David? i felt bad for that dude. he had andre johnson, but never the time needed to throw it too him, wasn't he the most sacked QB back to back years at one point?
Casserly nailed it. you don't draft a QB #1 overall or period on the 1st round if you don't even have the line to protect. i wouldn't say we are in the same situation, but hoyer was still getting sacked atleast 3 times a game even with his quick release.
we need a G, and we now need a RT. and if we don't plan on addressing those 2 things for whatever reason in the FA or not until later rounds of the draft, than we have no business drafting a pocket QB.
he better be mobile. quite mobile.
Great posts here. Back to the topic!
I used to get upset when I would make a post about the topic, then get ignored because I wasn't off topic beating the same dead horse over and over and over again. I figured I was ignored cause I'm under 1000 posts. Maybe they have a filter to ignore all users under 5000 posts? But now I'm just as bad as them. I ignore 80 percent of most posts here now. Just skim right by all same ol same ol same ol.........
All the quotes and the back and forth is honestly embarrassing as a browns fan. Glad I'm not part of this elite group of nfl minds
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865 |
Quote:
Thought this was interesting regarding QB's going forward:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-ga...op-overall-pick
Casserly is one of the few talking heads that I respect.
Derek Carr is somebody I am going to start to break down in the weeks ahead. There has to be some benefit to the experience he gained watching what his brother went through.
I never thought Carr was a bad QB, in fact, quite the opposite, I thought he was pretty good. But as Casserly pointed out, you better protect your QB.. if you can't, there is virtually nothing he can do. He will never reach full potential.
I think we have the makings of a pretty good line. But I think it was Swish that pointed out, we have to fix the right side. Not sure if that means both guys go or move to back up roles or if only one needs to go or move to back up status.
We also need to either find a better center (which I don't think will be easy) or you need to resign Mack.
On the left side, we are good. But, Thomas, as good as he is, is getting older so he can't play at a pro bowl level forever. Just food for future thought.
Is Derek Carr a reasonable candidate? I wish I knew, I've actually never seen him play so I don't know. No idea whatsoever. I sure hope some of the gurus on here will grace us with their wisdom on him.
Along with a critique of him, I'd like to hear if people think he'll be there when we draft and or do they feel we'll need to do some trading up to get him?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,770
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,770 |
I do believe your method would be a fine one. And if you wish to go to that trouble, I'd love seeing the results.
It would be easy enough for you to look at both of his GM stints and the drafting done to get a sample of success/failure rate. I did that when he was first mentioned as a potential hire. I gave you the list of QB's he promoted that dj posted. On that list are several QB's that you can surely see would have had a variety of opinions on. There really weren't any slam dunk QB's on that list so it's a fair conclusion to know that opinions were quite varied.
What you seem to indicate is that I'm trying to lambast Lombardi. That's not the case. I have done my homework on the guy and if you are really interested in doing the homework you outlined, I suggest that would be a worthwhile venture.
My comments have and remain that I do understand people being concerned due to his track record as an NFL GM and track record promoting questionable draft picks.
Our fan base has been disappointed by regime after regime. I think it's only rational to understand when looking at all of that, it's only logical to expect our fan base to be gun shy of buying into things until they see positive results.
I've seen over the top expectations on this board for regime after regime. And in the end, all of that has proven futile.
I don't know if you actually used the link I provided and did that read because I did say it was a good read. In that article, Banner said he had talked with Lombardi for many years in regards to evaluating talent. That he valued and trusted Lombardi.
So nobody is "peddling BS". Nobody, at least not me, is trying to crucify Lombardi. But if one looks at his drafts as an NFL GM and reads the list of QB's he endorsed, it's not a glowing recommendation. When one dismisses that people have no cause to be cautious over Lombardi or have concerns, that's every bit as much BS or more.
While you seem very good at trying to hand out homework assignments, I'm not a pupil here. If you actually believe it's worth doing the work to find out the answers to your own questions, by all means move forward.
I have simply done enough homework to understand cause for concern. Not to nail someone to the cross. there's a huge difference there.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,164
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,164 |
Actually Swish we need a cut back runner and blocking full back. Next, we need play from the same QB longer than 3 games. Offense has no rhythm or timing. They are executing at 9-10 second tempo when it should be near 3. With defenses keying on pressure, OL is getting out numbered. Oby, actually all the RB's, terrible picking up the blitz.
Defenses know Lauvao is a North/South guy. He is slow working side to side. Lauvao is a great initial hit guy ideal for a RB who can identify the hole.
If Hoyer would have played longer than three games, you would have seen those sack counts go down.
Agree eventually some OL positions need an upgrade. Right now higher priority is needed at QB, RB, MLB, FB, and WR.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 380
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 380 |
But I think we try both firsts for teddy to whoever is first. Hopefully Atlanta loses some more and we can trade with them.
If teddy gone I don't want anyone else in the first unless they think Carr is the guy. If neither of those happen we take one 2-4 round and put our hopes on hoyer. If not first round he's not gonna start right away so we have to hope hoyer has it. And not just a 2 game flash in the pan we love cause he is the hometown boy. Honestly hard to put a lot of hope into him being "the guy" after 2 games. Campbell did well in two games. He might not even be healthy by training camp.
They way we going we might pick around 3. If we third and teddy goes 1st and someone else next (mariotta staying hurts this. Thank god cause I want no part of a 2 yrd screen qb) we could trade out with someone wanting clowney. I like him but we are 3-4 and already have 2 converted de to olb. Plus Kruger. We don't need 4 olb.
We can't take a qb just to take one though.
1. Go for teddy
2. Draft a hope so so guy and sit behind hoyer
3. Trade back in first and take wr and bpa in first. Use what we get for trade back (1st next year?) to get a qb next year.
Don't take one in first to just take one. Grade em and pass if your boy not there. And honestly I don't want a read option guy. I just think it takes a special player for that. Cam like. I'd rather have a pocket passer kind of guy. Read option will go the way of the wildcat. D coordinators figure stuff out in the nfl after a couple years. IMHO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,164
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,164 |
PitDAWG, watch and see who Browns actually draft at QB. Remember Lombardi endorsed Hoyer. Many were up an arms thinking Lombardi would deliver Hoyer with a bow! When Browns did get Hoyer, there were still people having issues.
My gut tells me Banner/Lombardi will draft someone completely off the radar. Passing over many so-call top ranked QB's. Fans will revolt! That is all Banner has done since he got here. Not saying it is bad. Simply saying us fans need to be prepare!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Quote:
My gut tells me Banner/Lombardi will draft someone completely off the radar. Passing over many so-call top ranked QB's. Fans will revolt! That is all Banner has done since he got here. Not saying it is bad. Simply saying us fans need to be prepare!
If that no-name guy can hit an open WR, not throw it 4000 mph on a screen or check down and can see the field after being able to read a defense - then by all means he will become a God around here in Cleveland, therefore resulting in the God status trickling to Banner/Lombardi. Truthfully though, I can see this situation unfolding too. Hoyer kind of gives us some flex-n-bend here as the "promise" he displayed in his short little stint as QB, but regardless who they draft and where - the haters will always be present to share their colorful opinions...
JMO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 |
Quote:
Thought this was interesting regarding QB's going forward:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-ga...op-overall-pick
Casserly is one of the few talking heads that I respect.
Derek Carr is somebody I am going to start to break down in the weeks ahead. There has to be some benefit to the experience he gained watching what his brother went through.
I echoed this sentiment in the draft thread in tailgate. Got mocked, but I absolutely believe football is a family business. The Mathews, the mannings, the Barbers, etc. Having a home life and a mentor like Derrek Carr has is absolutely setting him up for success.
I've been talking up Carr for a while now. The system he runs is a question mark, but his skill set is not in question. He'll be a Thursday night pick.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
Its almost impossible for Expansion teams to have tackles - nobody gives away viable tackles via expansion draft. To make the decision on having Boselli who already was experiencing Injury and Young on the reason to take Carr was well not the smartest move.
Also this is why I wanted our Joe Thomas first...then invest in that QB and develop them.
I always liked Carr and thought he became damaged goods due to the lack of protection. He, Couch and in a way Bradford and Luck not to expansion degree but the first two were destroyed. There is no debate cause there was never a set system nor protection and both Carr and Couch set record on being hit and became damaged goods.
Bradford and Luck are not on expansion teams but were taken overall #1 on teams with OL deficiencies. Both get killed and I cringe at the amount of hits Luck is taking. Bradford is developing a reputation of not being able to finish a season....like its his fault and fragile or something 
I've always stated we get a QB here with talent to be great we do have the OL to let him progress and achieve their potential. And I'm sure we will here n there upgrade the OL but right now its a pretty good pass blocking OL.
Saw Derek Carr last night for the first time. He has good footwork and a NFL arm. I would not be upset as long as we stick to the plan of developing him and bring him on slow with the usage of Hoyer.
I have been on the record on liking Manziel.
Also the sleeper in the draft just might be the kid Conner Cook (is he coming out?) I was very impressed with his Technique and accuracy...he made some great throws in little windows.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,164
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,164 |
BpG, the little I've seen of Carr I like. I thought last night he did not look sharp against Utah State, but he did things to overcome and win.
Good point regarding family ties. Howie Long and his boys is another example.
I thought Franklin, Missouri QB, looked sharp. I think it will take him time to develop in the NFL. Kid has an arm and accurate. A Wal-Mart item look-a-like of Cam Newton! On a side note, Dorial Green-Beckham, Missouri receiver and healthy Danario Alexander type, would be a nice fit.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Quote:
i don't much about Derek, but David? i felt bad for that dude. he had andre johnson, but never the time needed to throw it too him, wasn't he the most sacked QB back to back years at one point?
One of the reasons I took so long to take the younger Carr seriously was because how putrid I thought his brother was.
I know he took a lot of sacks and I heard all the excuses that I heard for Timid and Weeden about how his OL was horrible.
I don't think he played behind a good OL. They were bad. However, the guy did the same thing Timid and Weeden did. He held the ball too long because he could not read coverages.
Some will argue that Carr was forever ruined because of the early beatings, but I think the fact that he sucked wherever he went is further proof of my contention that the guy could not read coverages and thus was relegated to a journeyman that couldn't win a starting job anywhere.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
excuses that I heard for Timid and Weeden
one has nothing to do with the other as far as environment went.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093 |
Quote:
It would be easy enough for you to look at both of his GM stints and the drafting done to get a sample of success/failure rate. I did that when he was first mentioned as a potential hire.
Did you really? You looked not only at Lombardi's evaluations but also at the evaluations made by other GMs for the players Lombardi drafted? Because, you see, until you've done this, your opinion about Lombardi's talent evaluation skills is uninformed.
Quote:
I gave you the list of QB's he promoted that dj posted. On that list are several QB's that you can surely see would have had a variety of opinions on. There really weren't any slam dunk QB's on that list so it's a fair conclusion to know that opinions were quite varied.
But until you look it up, you don't know. Assuming that evaluations were varied does not equal knowing that evaluations were varied.
Quote:
What you seem to indicate is that I'm trying to lambast Lombardi.
Actually, no. There are others who are much more vociferous with their Lombardi criticism. You just happened to be the last post in the thread that was talking about this subject, so I responded to yours. I think your posts in general are some of the most well-reasoned on the board, so please don't take my criticism on this one point alone as representative of how I think about your posts.
Quote:
That's not the case. I have done my homework on the guy and if you are really interested in doing the homework you outlined, I suggest that would be a worthwhile venture.
LOL. I'm not so sure it would be a worthwhile venture. I have neither the time nor the inclination to discover if Lombardi truly is a poor talent evaluator. I don't really care. What I do care about is reading posts that claim he is a poor talent evaluator without having gathered the necessary evidence to prove it. You keep saying you've done this, but I haven't seen it yet, not according to the method I laid out above. I reiterate that focusing on Lombardi's evaluation history without taking into account how his peers were evaluating the exact same players yields nothing in the way of a definitive judgment about Lombardi's skills as a talent evaluator.
Quote:
So nobody is "peddling BS". Nobody, at least not me, is trying to crucify Lombardi.
I don't know if you intended for the second sentence to be an extension of the first, but by "peddling BS" I don't mean people have an agenda or an axe to grind with the guy. I simply mean that people are judging him as a poor talent evaluator without having the evidence to prove it. So, the second sentence doesn't follow from the first.
Quote:
When one dismisses that people have no cause to be cautious over Lombardi or have concerns, that's every bit as much BS or more.
Of course it is, and that's certainly not what I'm doing. In fact, I don't recall anyone ever saying that there is no reason to be cautious or have concerns. Personally, there is no GM the Browns could hire that wouldn't make me take a cautious approach.
Understand, I'm not taking a side in the Lombardi debate. I don't know the guy, and I really don't care to find out. My only point is that, for those who are partaking in the debate, the evidence they are using to support their claim that he is a poor talent evaluator is inadequate. They have to do more than simply point out a player Lombardi got wrong. It is a lot of work, and I don't expect anyone will actually do it, so perhaps the lesson to be learned here is for people to lay off the harsher opinions because they really don't know as much about the guy as they claim to.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Is it your contention that if Lombardi as well as the majority of talking heads were all wrong on a particular player then that actually means Lombardi wasn't wrong at all?
Is that what you are saying?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469 |
jc.
i wanna be possible about mingo. he got a sack today.
but that god awful tackling he attempted out in the flat was simply embarassing. period. i had to face palm that.
anyway, JC did great enough to win the game. him and hoyer should be on the roster next year, battling while whoever we draft just learns.
Last edited by Swish; 12/08/13 06:22 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093 |
Quote:
Is it your contention that if Lombardi as well as the majority of talking heads were all wrong on a particular player then that actually means Lombardi wasn't wrong at all?
No, he was still wrong. It is my contention that if Lombardi, as a talking head, misevaluated a player along with most or all of the other talking heads, then that misevaluation is irrelevant when determining Lombardi's skill as a talent evaluator. Same goes for when he was a GM. Counter-intuitive, I know -- but think about it. A talking head or GM is only as good as he is able to evaluate the players for whom there is debate. If every talking head gets it wrong for a player, what good does it do you to blast Lombardi for it when no one got it right?
Same goes for when he was a GM. If most or all GMs evaluated a player wrong, then what good is it to criticize Lombardi for it, as if there is a GM out there that would have done a better job? If most of them are wrong anyway, then it doesn't really matter that Lombardi was wrong about a player. It's the players for whom evaluations are mixed that you will be able to make a definitive statement about Lombardi, and there needs to be a representative sample in order for it to be proven. It's not good enough to look at a single player evaluation he got wrong because perhaps in the long run his accuracy rate is actually good.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
You thought Mingo played poorly? Really?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469 |
Quote:
You thought Mingo played poorly? Really?
how did i know captain save a mingo would respond to that bait? good job vers.
anyway, yea he played poorly. defend the kid all you want, he's a project. and a project is a wasted #6 pick, especially with so many other holes in this team.
which is why i'm worried. if this was a joint effort, than the FO blew that #6 pick this year. if it was most lombardi, than he scares me even more with next years upcoming draft.
so why should we have high hopes that the FO will make it happen for next years QB?
because right now Vers, say whatever you want, the FO is judged off of these things:
moves made in the off season: they did a heck of a job. no complaints.
the draft: wait and see, but isn't looking too good.
and the biggest part: the W-L column.
right now, there is no difference between last year and this year. all the high hopes people had, you and UB saying we was gonna be better....where? we still are the same ol browns, still the kid brother, still the laughing stock, still at the bottom of the AFC north.
its funny that you wanna defend mingo so much. cause he was the new FO's first pick.
but how come you never have anything good to say about the ONLY elite playmaker we have on this team: Gordon? the only thing you do when people defend him is bring up the weed. yet you blast people for criticizing the new FO.
there is no reason to have hope vers. moral victories doesn't THEIR JOB in the nfl. W-L does, and right now, there W-L record for next year's only hope to improve is to hit on damn near everything in the draft, or get a lucky QB in FA, because if they don't hit it Vers, guess what? there will be officially no difference between this FO and the last one.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 |
I don't think Mingo played poorly at all. The only play that was somewhat disappointing was that he couldn't stay with the fullback on the wheel.  Other than that he flashed, got a sack, had a couple of QB "Harasses". I don't disagree that he is somewhat of a project, but he's a rookie adjusting to a new position whose played part time and he has 5 sacks. You can see he is going to be a good player for us for a long time. Pre-draft, all the scouting reports said he would need a year or two in the weight room. He has the makeup to be something special.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,469 |
Quote:
I don't think Mingo played poorly at all. The only play that was somewhat disappointing was that he couldn't stay with the fullback on the wheel.
Other than that he flashed, got a sack, had a couple of QB "Harasses".
I don't disagree that he is somewhat of a project, but he's a rookie adjusting to a new position whose played part time and he has 5 sacks. You can see he is going to be a good player for us for a long time. Pre-draft, all the scouting reports said he would need a year or two in the weight room.
He has the makeup to be something special.
thats fine B, and i don't have a problem with mingo the player.
just like posters with T rich, i have a problem with where he was drafted. that's it.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Quote:
which is why i'm worried. if this was a joint effort, than the FO blew that #6 pick this year. if it was most lombardi, than he scares me even more with next years upcoming draft.
so why should we have high hopes that the FO will make it happen for next years QB?
because right now Vers, say whatever you want, the FO is judged off of these things:
Your bias is revolting.
Mingo had a very good game. He got several pressures. He had a sack. He smacked Brady and forced an incompletion. He set the edge well. He made tackles in the running game.
You can hate all you want, but I ain't going to let you misrepresent facts. The fact is that the kid had a very good game that bordered on excellent.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
...defend the kid all you want, he's a project. and a project is a wasted #6 pick, especially with so many other holes in this team.
Every 4-3 DE is a project when transitioning him to 3-4 OLB, even the top 10 picks. All of them. Every one. There is no exceptions.
Some get it quicker in flashes. But Mingo is playing well for a rookie making that transition.
I will however agree with you that on his coverage on the FB he seemed to give up for a second before speeding back up and making the stop. When it happened I thought he must have thought the FB stepped out of bounds. Still, he has to be sure before he slows.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,423
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,423 |
Mingo had one bad play, but was in Brady's face a lot during this game. He was explosive and disruptive.
Given the fact that this kid reportedly works hard, has a great attitude, and is a sponge for information, I think that he will just keep getting better. He has special speed and surprising strength.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Quote:
Given the fact that this kid reportedly works hard, has a great attitude, and is a sponge for information, I think that he will just keep getting better. He has special speed and surprising strength.
There is zero reason to think otherwise. Him and Paul doesn't have a million sacks amongst them, therefore some people just wanna label them a certain way. Mingo was pressuring Brady pretty good.
As you said YTown, I recall one bad play where he got dusted by a fullback on a wheel route. He disrupted Brady often. New England's tackle had a hell of a time going up against Jabaal and then Mingo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
yesterday was Mingo's best game of the season. no question. I hope there is more where that came from.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
yesterday was Mingo's best game of the season. no question. I hope there is more where that came from.
Well it's about time, he's been the league for 13 freaking games, its about time he turned the corner and started playing like a veteran. 
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
yesterday was Mingo's best game of the season. no question. I hope there is more where that came from.
Well it's about time, he's been the league for 13 freaking games, its about time he turned the corner and started playing like a veteran.
yes, exactly!!!!
seriously though, noting that he seemed to turn off whatever was causing him to hesitate the past few games. he finally just attacked and affected a few Brady throws even though he didn't get all the way to him.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
I've been talking up Carr for a while now.
He's been gaining steam on this board.
Don't count me as one of those folks.
I've watched and rewatched the condensed replays of his games. In those games he can't read defenses at all and showed an inaccurate arm. The impression I came away with was that of a guy who is going to throw to his primary no matter what he sees because his mind doesn't process the info quickly enough.
This is a much balyhooed QB class, but I'm not nearly as impressed as many. This draft has all the earmarks of the 2011 draft where guys like Locker and Ponder were badly over-drafted. I hate...HATE...the idea that this regime might take a guy early just because. I hope that Weeden has left a bad enough taste in their mouths that they won't go that route.
I think there are going to be some 2nd and 3rd round guys that have a chance to be developed. If there isn't a chance to get a Bridgewater...who is the only true blue-chip guy in this draft IMO...then why not stick with a guy like Campbell for another year and let Hoyer and a 2nd or 3rd round guy learn?
People don't dig on Campbell because he's not a flashy guy. He never turned into the top-flight QB that Washington wanted him to be. Yet in Oakland before he got hurt he started really turning a corner, and now here in Cleveland he's done some quality work behind a dicey offensive line and arguably the worst running attack in the league.
With 9 TD's, 3 INT's and an 88 rating that would put him at 9th in the NFL if he had enough passes to qualify...that's plenty good enough to win with.
I'm not going to play the card that says he's the best we've had here since '99 because that only tells just how poorly we've drafted at the position.
If we can't get a can't-miss guy, we should spend our picks on upgrading the weak spots on the team.
Campbell is doing what he's doing with the 5th worst rushing average in the league, the 6th worst yards in the league, and dead last in TD's rushing with 2.
What might he do with an actual running game?
If Campbell can finish the year doing what he's done so far, I'm all for keeping him as the starter next year.
We have a ton of draft picks to work with. We've gambled in the past on non-1st round QB's with guys like Weeden and Quinn. If Campbell can prove to be a top-15 QB by running the offense the way he is now, it's perfectly fine spending the picks to bring the rest of the team up to the level of the rest of the league.
I believe Campbell can force this regime to consider him next year if he can keep doing what he's done. If there's a TRUE franchise QB available...not some wannabe who gets reached on like Ponder and Locker...then take him and let him fight it out with Campbell and Hoyer next year. But if there's not, we can roll with the two guys we have and build up the talent.
People can nitpick Campbell. He doesn't have elite tools or an elite resume, but he's playing better now than he has at any point in his career. He has developed slower than most QB's for various reasons but appears to be following the Vinny Testeverde path. It wouldn't be the worst thing we could do to have a guy playing at this level keeping the seat warm for another season. Then who knows? If he continues to improve and his rating goes into the low 90's, well, we may have our QB for the next couple of years.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
too many of the QBs are going back to school that could have come out and 2 of the guys that have to come out are injured. there goes QB depth.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,423
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,423 |
I am of the opinion that Campbell does seem to be developing under Norv and Chud, and that his rib injury hurt him more than anyone let on.
In the games where he was not hurt, he has played some exceptional football. In the KC, Baltimore, and New England games he combined for 8 TD and no INT. Those teams aren't exactly a cupcake part of the schedule.
I keep going back and forth on these guys, but I do think that Campbell should, at least, get a chance to win the job next year. For the most part, when he is healthy he has been magnificent.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
too many of the QBs are going back to school that could have come out and 2 of the guys that have to come out are injured. there goes QB depth.
Exactly.
I'm not a fan of Mettenberger. He looks like a Glass Joe to me who doesn't read defenses all that well.
Manziel is a boom or bust QB, and to me when he gets to the NFL his arm and backyard scrambling are going to expose him.
I've said my peace on Carr.
McCarron is Ken Dorsey with a stronger arm.
Hundley has all the talent in the world and could follow the exact path of AJ Manual, but he's a far from a sure thing. Hundley is just the kind of guy that could be great...but gets over-drafted on. Think Jake Locker.
Now you're getting into the reacher guys who probably aren't first rounders. I'm a fan of Tajh Boyd, but only as a developmental guy.
To me, it's Bridgewater or nothing in the 1st round of this draft.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Agree for the most part with that, especially about Manziel.
What about Bortles though? I have to watch more, but he seems like a viable wildcard
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Which QB Going Forward? (Next
Year)
|
|
