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I like Barr, but think he's a better fit as 43 DE than 34 OLB. He'll struggle in space...
Put him inside.
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And if we come away with an inside backer at four- one more suited to rush the passer- we failed.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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What do you think you gotta give to move from 4 to 2?
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And if we come away with an inside backer at four- one more suited to rush the passer- we failed.
Why? How did our pass rush look this season? I thought we were supposed to see blitzes like hasn't been seen since the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939.
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And if we come away with an inside backer at four- one more suited to rush the passer- we failed.
Why? How did our pass rush look this season? I thought we were supposed to see blitzes like hasn't been seen since the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939.
Turns out our blitzing more resembled when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor. (think about it..........think about it......
 )
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I like Barr, but think he's a better fit as 43 DE than 34 OLB. He'll struggle in space...
Doesn't he play 34 OLB?
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What do you think you gotta give to move from 4 to 2?
I think a low 2nd value is what it would take normally. When you take into account that we have the pick that would allow them to still have the choice of every major prospect other than QB I think we could get it for our high 3rd. If they traded elsewhere they may miss out.
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And if we come away with an inside backer at four- one more suited to rush the passer- we failed.
Why? How did our pass rush look this season? I thought we were supposed to see blitzes like hasn't been seen since the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939.
Turns out our blitzing more resembled when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor. (think about it..........think about it......
)
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I like Barr, but think he's a better fit as 43 DE than 34 OLB. He'll struggle in space...
Doesn't he play 34 OLB?
Yes, but I wasn't going to belabor the point. I think he could work as a MLB in a 4-3... or even an ILB in the 3-4.
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Why? How did our pass rush look this season? I thought we were supposed to see blitzes like hasn't been seen since the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939.
I think eotab explained that pretty well. With the young guys we had on the back end it became hard to dare a lot of blitzing.
#gmstrong
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pred, you might be crazy, but that was an excellent suggestion.
It is. It's why I have also been saying that for a few days. 
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Re: Which QB Going Forward? (Next Year) [Re: GraffZ06]
#1106041 - 01/02/14 06:25 AM
Reply to this post Reply Reply to this post Quote
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I've been saying it to everyone who will listen.
Bridgewater will be gone and/or cost too much.
Manziel has all the talent but I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole.
Bortles is the guy I want.
He did look impressive. As I see there there are 3qbs at the top, and we pick 4th. If we want to gurantee one of the 3, we better move up to 2nd
--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I Think There's A Good Chance Bortles Goes At 1.
He Wont Get By Jax Either Way.
The FO Will Need To Be Either Bold To Get Teddy Or Blake Or Lucky If Johnny Falls To Them And They Want Him. I LookFor STL To Bail And A Team Jump Us.
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Why? How did our pass rush look this season? I thought we were supposed to see blitzes like hasn't been seen since the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939.
I think eotab explained that pretty well. With the young guys we had on the back end it became hard to dare a lot of blitzing.
That isn't what Ray Horton told us, is it? It isn't what we expected to see on the field, is it?
I don't care what eotab wrote. I'm telling you, we were told that we'd see more blitzing and we saw less of it than under Jauron.
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I Think There's A Good Chance Bortles Goes At 1.
He Wont Get By Jax Either Way.
The FO Will Need To Be Either Bold To Get Teddy Or Blake Or Lucky If Johnny Falls To Them And They Want Him. I LookFor STL To Bail And A Team Jump Us.
Let's just forfeit every game next season so that we're assured of the #1 overall pick.
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What do you think you gotta give to move from 4 to 2?
I think a low 2nd value is what it would take normally. When you take into account that we have the pick that would allow them to still have the choice of every major prospect other than QB I think we could get it for our high 3rd. If they traded elsewhere they may miss out.
I've been pretty negative about trading away too much to reach. But if all it would take is our 1st overall pick and something in the 3rd round AND if they truly believe the guy they can get is the one that can take them all the way, (and you have to assume that's exactly what they'd think), then sure, that's a deal I could get behind.
Only problem I see is whos doin the picking? Let's face it, Lombardi doesn't have the best track record, Banner, as far as I can tell, has NEVER been totally responsible for drafting (he's always had Andy Reid there at the very least and Heckert. also) and Haslam hasn't ever drafted either. So it falls to Farmer I guess.
What's his record as the lead dog in drafting? (not trying to be funny, I just don't know the answer to that)
I'd feel a lot better about doing something like this if Chud and Turner were here.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I Think There's A Good Chance Bortles Goes At 1.
He Wont Get By Jax Either Way.
The FO Will Need To Be Either Bold To Get Teddy Or Blake Or Lucky If Johnny Falls To Them And They Want Him. I LookFor STL To Bail And A Team Jump Us.
Let's just forfeit every game next season so that we're assured of the #1 overall pick.
A Possible Catch 22 For Sure!
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If all it takes is one of our 3rd round picks that is a no brainer. I can almost assure you that it will take more.
if I am the Rams I ask for next year's 1st rounder and a 3rd this year. Possibly settling for a 2nd this year and a 2nd next year. To ensure the pick I think that we would have to make this year's 2nd the Colt's pick.
jmo
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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I Think There's A Good Chance Bortles Goes At 1.
I would be absolutely stunned if that happened, sir.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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~ Legend
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JC
Depending on the offense I'm not sure that we need a new QB. If we run the WCO there's no need for one because Hoyer can do everything a WCO QB needs to do. Granted this isn't the popular opinion here, but I think it needs to be said.
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All Pro
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If we want to move to 2, I think it takes both our first rounders. Someone is going to give the Rams two firsts, even if one is next year. If we want to trump that, we need to give our two firsts this year or maybe maybe maybe #4 and #36.
And if we want the guy who's there, I would do it.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/GmuEd.gif) "One man's Bum is another man's Hobo" - Waterdawg
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J/C
I see a lot of people thinking we should take Manziel at either 2 or 4. Talent-wise and ceiling-wise I can get behind that, but his floor/bust rate is just off the charts with the head on his shoulders (or lack thereof).
I've seen it suggested (not necessarily in this thread, just in general) that we could draft a QB in the first and then let them compete with Hoyer for the starting spot. Sort of a hedge our bets to see if the 2+ games we saw of Hoyer was legit and/or if the rookie isn't ready day 1. Otherwise if Hoyer was a mirage and/or the rookie studs out then we have our new QB.
This is my ideal scenario. The problem, as I see it, as it relates back to possibly drafting Manziel is; what if scenario 1 plays out above and he's forced to sit for a year or two? Does anybody on this board actually think his ego and attitude will be fine with sitting the bench for a season or two, ESPECIALLY if he ends up being drafted in the 2-4 range? I don't. Not for a second. I think he'd be a disaster in the locker-room, on the sideline, in the media etc.
So again, my personal opinion, I wouldn't touch Manziel regardless of his talent. I could get behind moving up to 2/3 or staying at 4 (or even jumping to 1 for Teddy if it won't take a king's ransom...but it will), but the guy needs to be Bortles IMO.
Hoyer/Bortles battle for the starting spot with a FA/late round/UDFA type guy as our #3.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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We've Been Stunned By The Draft Before! And Here In Cleveland...Well, Too Many Times.
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Quote:
If all it takes is one of our 3rd round picks that is a no brainer. I can almost assure you that it will take more.
if I am the Rams I ask for next year's 1st rounder and a 3rd this year. Possibly settling for a 2nd this year and a 2nd next year. To ensure the pick I think that we would have to make this year's 2nd the Colt's pick.
jmo
That's a horse of a different color then.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I Dont Think You Can Sell The Farm, Move Up Then Not Start Your Guy.
Manziel Is Least Appealing To Me Of THe Trio And Im Not A Bit Sold 100% On Hoyer Being More Than Lightening In A Bottle.
This Management Group Needs To Figure It Out Correctly Or Get Out Of Dodge!
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1st String
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I honestly believe we are over valuing these qb this class cause we are in such need for a qb. That's not saying a few teams in front aren't needing one also. But I honestly think those teams don't drool over bortles or Johnny. Yeah mcshays etc mock draft AS OF NOW have those teams taking these guys high. But I don't get it.
Honestly how many times has a qb gone 1-2-3? And with this class? Look most teams at top of draft need a qb every year. This class besides teddy, and he's no luck etc, just doesn't jump out 1-2-3 IMO.
It's just all hype. Qb is exciting and sexy pick talk. Lts and de are not talked about during the playoffs the year before draft. Bortles and Johnny are not a value at those positions. Seriously where was Johnny before that bowl game? 2nd, end of first? Now top 3? Mocks are gonna change. But, teddy is going first by someone. Hopefully us browns.
We, as browns fans are so desperate for a qb some fans wanna trade to 2! Not up to one for best qb. Trade up to two for borels or Johnny !? That's just absolutely nuts. And I've down for trading quite a bit to trade up. For the first qb off the board. Not a late 1st-2nd round talent.
Yeah yeah watching Johnny in college was fun. But that last game he played? Is any I mean ANY of that gonna fly on Sunday? I love his fire and think a team loves that, but I just don't think......
Bortles? I just don't get it either. Unlike Johnny he is built for nfl. But nothing jumps out at me about him when I watched him play. Other than "only browns fans would be watching him right saying we wish we had him." I'd put him back there with Boyd. A 2nd round waste. Sounds harsh, but my value is if we spent our pick on player.
If we go into draft with this ammo and come out without Teddy I think we failed. Of course I've been showing that Kevin Costner movie trailer to anyone willng to watch.
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If all it takes is one of our 3rd round picks that is a no brainer. I can almost assure you that it will take more.
Jester, I'm going to apologize for diving in and asking for clarification, but are you referencing what it would cost for US to go from #4 to #2? If that's the case, it's going to take FAR more than a 3rd rounder to move. It will take a #1 somewhere, most likely our second 1st rounder this year. That team still has many holes and they need help quickly. I wouldn't discount the use of something in next years draft, but I would go ahead and eliminate the word "almost" in your statement when you said you can "almost" assure you that it will take more than a 3rd to move up. 
The standard draft chart rules don't apply to this disco dance because of the QB's involved.
It's too early to narrow down scenarios, but my opinion is that while there are now going to be numerous 1st round QB's in this draft (which I didn't believe until I the last few games were played) there are levels of 1st round QB's. My opinion is that Bridgewater is in a class by himself. He's the jewel of the kingdom. Then you'll have the next tier of guys like Manziel and Bortles and Hundley (if he comes out). Then you'll get into the fringe 1st rounders who really don't belong there, which includes guys like Boyd, Carr, and Mettenberger.
If McNair TRULY is willing to auction off Bridgewater it's going to be costly. If our target is Manziel or Bortles and we have to get to #2 to do it, it'll take our second 1st rounder and maybe a sweetener.
I do have to wonder how much of this is premature discussion, considering I believe it's a foregone conclusion that McDaniels is our next coach. I've never wanted Mallet but it' well within reason to believe that McDaniels would want him to come over. Then where are we?
I'll tell you where we are...we're sellers  Ok...sure...let Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles go 1, 2, and 3. That leaves Clowney sitting there. Depending on what defense we try to run, we may be selling him off.
We're simply too far away right now to know all the factors for accurate predictions and forecasting. There are many moving parts to consider.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Clowney Or Watkins After all Are Pretty Nice Consolation Prizes Should We Stay Put!
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Clowney Or Watkins After all Are Pretty Nice Consolation Prizes Should We Stay Put!
I have no clue ... but everything I've heard about Clowney is him and Mingo are pretty much clones as far as what they can do is concerned??? am I wrong?? ... I very well could be as I don't know that much about Clowney ....
please let me know ...
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Im Not Sure About That Either.
I'd Rather Have Watkins And Gordon As Bookends Anyway.
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If we want to move to 2, I think it takes both our first rounders. Someone is going to give the Rams two firsts, even if one is next year. If we want to trump that, we need to give our two firsts this year or maybe maybe maybe #4 and #36.
And if we want the guy who's there, I would do it.
Keep in mind though two things. Future picks are always valued less for reasons I need not get into. We have the highest pick value at 4. The greatest value between single picks is highest at the top.
I say only a 3rd would get it done because I don't see Oakland as an issue first off. They have A LOT of needs. Say they gave up 5 and 2015 1st. Our 4 and 36 is pretty comparable to that and Oakland would be morons to do so. I understand I said 3rd but I just don't see them getting the conversation to jack the price up as they have no pieces to play chess with us. Their roster is far too weak for a rookie QB to lead them to a low draft pick. No way they give up their future 1st.
The other team is Minnesota. St Louis would drop 3x as far to 8 if dealing with them. Thats huge value. That's the difference between a Blue Chip and a Red Chip prospect for them. It isn't only about 4 more spots. I don't see how our early 3rd and 4th overall is worth so much less if at all than an 8 and a future 1st. Though I didn't make it my point it's not like we couldn't throw in a 4th to make the deal go. Don't forget Rubin, no matter the scheme, is likely trade bait this offseason.
Last edited by predator16; 01/05/14 03:27 PM.
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No apologies necessary.
Someone earlier suggested that we might be able to get then Rams to exchange the #2 for the #4 pick by giving them one of our 3rd round picks. I don't think that there is anyway that is near enough.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Legend
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If we want to move to 2, I think it takes both our first rounders. Someone is going to give the Rams two firsts, even if one is next year. If we want to trump that, we need to give our two firsts this year or maybe maybe maybe #4 and #36.
And if we want the guy who's there, I would do it.
No doubt. If you look at the trade value chart. for whatever that is worth, the #2 pick is valued at 2600. The #4 is valued at 1800, a difference of 800.
The #21 pick in the first round is valued at 800. Depending on where Indy finally finished, we will have to give up the 1st, and maybe a 4th and one lower.
Again, I don't know if that chart is worth all that much, but it is a starting point.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
Quote:
If we want to move to 2, I think it takes both our first rounders. Someone is going to give the Rams two firsts, even if one is next year. If we want to trump that, we need to give our two firsts this year or maybe maybe maybe #4 and #36.
And if we want the guy who's there, I would do it.
No doubt. If you look at the trade value chart. for whatever that is worth, the #2 pick is valued at 2600. The #4 is valued at 1800, a difference of 800.
The #21 pick in the first round is valued at 800. Depending on where Indy finally finished, we will have to give up the 1st, and maybe a 4th and one lower.
Again, I don't know if that chart is worth all that much, but it is a starting point.
so do you think we would have enough ammo to trade up without having to give up a pick from 2015?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
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If we want to move to 2, I think it takes both our first rounders. Someone is going to give the Rams two firsts, even if one is next year. If we want to trump that, we need to give our two firsts this year or maybe maybe maybe #4 and #36.
And if we want the guy who's there, I would do it.
No doubt. If you look at the trade value chart. for whatever that is worth, the #2 pick is valued at 2600. The #4 is valued at 1800, a difference of 800.
The #21 pick in the first round is valued at 800. Depending on where Indy finally finished, we will have to give up the 1st, and maybe a 4th and one lower.
Again, I don't know if that chart is worth all that much, but it is a starting point.
so do you think we would have enough ammo to trade up without having to give up a pick from 2015?
No doubt. The second 1st round is valued at close to the difference. I would think a 3rd or 4th would equal that out, unless Indy keeps winning. But we have a boat load of picks. We can pay off everything this year.
If Houston or St. Louis wants to make this a RGIII deal, screw 'em. Just sit at 4, take Sammy Watkins or Clowney....or trade out. I think Hoyer gives us enough reason to not feel like we MUST trade up or MUST take a QB.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
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If we want to move to 2, I think it takes both our first rounders. Someone is going to give the Rams two firsts, even if one is next year. If we want to trump that, we need to give our two firsts this year or maybe maybe maybe #4 and #36.
And if we want the guy who's there, I would do it.
No doubt. If you look at the trade value chart. for whatever that is worth, the #2 pick is valued at 2600. The #4 is valued at 1800, a difference of 800.
The #21 pick in the first round is valued at 800. Depending on where Indy finally finished, we will have to give up the 1st, and maybe a 4th and one lower.
Again, I don't know if that chart is worth all that much, but it is a starting point.
so do you think we would have enough ammo to trade up without having to give up a pick from 2015?
No doubt. The second 1st round is valued at close to the difference. I would think a 3rd or 4th would equal that out, unless Indy keeps winning. But we have a boat load of picks. We can pay off everything this year.
If Houston or St. Louis wants to make this a RGIII deal, screw 'em. Just sit at 4, take Sammy Watkins or Clowney....or trade out. I think Hoyer gives us enough reason to not feel like we MUST trade up or MUST take a QB.
that watkins dude WOULD be sick. i mean, he could be a legit #2, and that with gordon, plus Cameron, and bess playing like he did in miami, would be simply sick for Hoyer.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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And Im Not A Bit Sold 100% On Hoyer Being More Than Lightening In A Bottle.
Huh? So, you're saying that you think that Hoyer is the sure thing?
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No I think he thinks he ISN'T (he's not sold on him being anything more than lightning in a bottle.)
I'll add that I agree. Until I see Hoyer do it for more than 2 games and against somebody better than the Vikings I don't believe it either. Then again I don't see any QB in this class (Bridgewater included) as sure fire, can't miss, guaranteed all-pros either. That's why I make sure I get one of the top 3 and let em compete with Hoyer and see what happens.
Last edited by GraffZ06; 01/05/14 06:02 PM.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,682
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,682 |
Quote:
that watkins dude WOULD be sick. i mean, he could be a legit #2, and that with gordon, plus Cameron, and bess playing like he did in miami, would be simply sick for Hoyer.
He would be a legit #1 as is Gordon. Nothing #2 about that guy. I wouldn't mind if we went that way. Not a bit.
If you have two guys who call for secondary help, you are going to have big numbers, especially for a guy like Cameron who has a LB in single on him almost all the time.
We could be very dynamic by adding Sammy. It's like, who do you cover?? Add a back who won't see a box full of defenders....just a decent back....paint me a Super Bowl win.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
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I don't care what eotab wrote. I'm telling you, we were told that we'd see more blitzing and we saw less of it than under Jauron.
Dude, what's up with you lately? You've been as pissy as a disgruntled woman. You don't seem able to respond to anyone without spurning them like no one but you is worthy of an opinion.
It's ok to disagree without being an ass.
#gmstrong
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Which QB Going Forward? (Next
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