DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The defense

Ok, we are a very respectable 5th in the NFL in total yards allowed...

5th in pass defense..

8th in rush defense...

We are a middle of the pack 17th in points allowed...

Now to the discussion point.. one of the reasons we are lower in points allowed is because we are dead last in red zone defense allowing touchdowns over 67% of the time, while better teams are under 50%, and some teams are in the 32-35% range....

So what are we doing or not doing, what are our deficiencies that cause us to be a very good defense between the 20s but become so easy to score on once we are in the red zone?

I think our D does a great job of limiting yardage on run downs and yards after catch, but we sometimes aren't as disruptive in pass coverage as we should be. A guy can make a catch for 4 yards and be tackled immediately and be a great play, but that same mindset at the goal line gives up 6.

Some factors that contribute to it are:

- our LBs and S are AVG or worse in coverage and have rather bad instincts. Since there's less time to react in the RZ (quicker plays), that gets exposed
- our D is build to stop the run and rush the passer. Quick pass plays negate that and attack our coverage
- some serious lack of size at DB, all are under 6 feet
- 1st season in new system for a young D leads to mental breakdowns on crucial plays

All that said, I think our D will be fine, but should have been helped with a couple more vet FA signings, esp DBs. We are extremely lucky with injuries too, otherwise our more than shake depth would have been exposed. I think our top 5 DBs haven't missed a game yet. I'm willing to bet that we're the only team left who can say that.

In my mind it seems that 3rd down conversions and red zone success comes at the hand of Owens, either of our ILBs, and either Gipson "appearing" to be out of position (only the coaches know for sure) or Ward being a total non-factor / tackle-missing machine.

Owens would be a fine dime guy...he's not a CB2 or CB3 to my eye. We do not have a "playmaking ILB" on this team. (Que the DQ stat-lovers and comments about how he gets 'em lined up properly.) Ward blows up run plays now and again...but misses tackles far too often..the missed tackles are inexcusable.

Teams don't throw at Haden or Skrine...and they don't have to.

We need McFadden to get there - I did see him in the game Sunday. Owens may do better in the scheme, but he's not going to "develop" further.

Our ILB play is poor and we don't even have a developmental guy (like McFadden is to the DBs). Outside of the QB situation, this is our biggest hole.

I'd resign Ward...somewhat reluctantly tho. We have some developmental guys at his spot who may get better with more time.

We are weak down the middle behind a GREAT DL...it shouldn't be that hard to fix before next year. I imagine that any FA ILBs or Ss would salivate at the thought of playing behind our DL and with our OLBs.

DQ and Rubin could both be gone next year if they don't re-structure their contracts. We will miss DQ's leadership but not his actual...you know...play.

I love Rubin...but A Bryant and Winn make him redundant at such a big contract number.

If McFadden gets it and/or we get a good CB3 and we find a difference-making ILB, this D will explode.

Can someone clarify for me.............if we're 17th in points allowed, is that total points our team gives up, or is that defensive points allowed only. (i.e. blocked punts, pick 6's, etc)

Total points, but until this game we didn't allow straight Offense or ST points and I'd bet two TDs of those are about "the norm" around the NFL after 10 or 11 games.

As pointed out, the points AVG is worse than our stats mainly because we have a bad RZ-D.

Thanks.

We did leave a lot of short fields on many of those points. We get three n outs...for a team to Drive the length of the field its pretty hard against us now. I know the D has gone in a funk usually the beginning of the game or at the very end to allow a Drive. But very few long drives. We have however turned the ball over at bad moments and had breakdowns on ST at bad moments which always for some reason would have them succeed.

Example the Tip pass and Harrison INT...we got a break with the block in the back on Joe T. Why our D cannot come back on the field - maybe they get a little down...they are very young on a whole and play with a lot of emotions and emotions works both ways...all you need is one or two and poof. But if we took that break and held them to just 3 it could change the entire MO of the game. For some reason we do not do it.

We are below league avg. in Red Zone and most the time its not from long drives but turnovers and ST and poor field position...again usually cause of the O. It has to be the emotional let down.

JMHO

I'm not going to go into X's and O's, but I just get a bad feeling whenever a team is within 20-25 yards, with a better than average QB.

Fauria killed us a month ago... Dalton made the best of his situation throwing 2 really easy TD passes...

I just don't like our speed with our linebackers, and I think our DB's don't make a play on the ball enough.

It's not the worst thing in the world, because in today's NFL, the odds favor the QB's, especially the good ones, in that situation.

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Now to the discussion point.. one of the reasons we are lower in points allowed is because we are dead last in red zone defense allowing touchdowns over 67% of the time, while better teams are under 50%, and some teams are in the 32-35% range....

So what are we doing or not doing, what are our deficiencies that cause us to be a very good defense between the 20s but become so easy to score on once we are in the red zone?

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While it would take some film study to confirm, I would offer the theory that while we don't technically blitz more than the average compared to the rest of the league, we offer far more complex and aggressive fronts. This concept does cause more disruption over the entire field and has helped a unit play above it's talent level, but once you get down near the goal-line our deficiencies get exposed and the aggressive nature which helps us in the open field hurts us closer in.

Consider that in the past our defenses have ranked poorly and applied a more bend-but-don't-break philosophy overall but got stingy near the goal-line. We didn't run a complex system. Now it's bass-ackwards, where we're very complex and aggressive but we're weak in the red-zone.

We have big bodies on the D-line but let's be honest about our 'backers...they are light in the pants and/or just plain soft. Robertson, Jackson, and Mingo aren't physical guys that are going to stand people up, nor are they very adept at coverage, as we've seen plenty this year.

Just thinking out loud...

from what I have seen, our redzone defensive issues have largely been on the LBers shoulders. Robertson has gotten straight-up abused by TEs and RBs and DQ nor Kruger,Sheard,Mingo, etc. have done all that much better.

what can be done this year? I'd like to think that Horton could disguise what we are doing in coverage a bit so that we can try to trick the QB into thinking something is open when it's not. Other than that though, our man-coverage down there is what it is for the most part.

When you run a 3-4, aren't you technically blitzing on every play?

It seems to me that Horton is mixing it up, I don't see a ton of all out blitzes that leave the rest of the field vulnerable...

It's been well recorded that Horton has been doing/completing a major install for his defense over the last month or so.

1. Is this install complete?
2. If it is yet to be completed, should we expect more blitzing once the majority of the playbook is rolled out?

Honest questions.

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We are a middle of the pack 17th in points allowed...

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I think that stat is a bit misleading. Take this past game, for example. We gave up 41 points, but do you think the defense played poorly?

I personally think they had an outstanding day. They were victimized by an offense that turned it over several times and rotten play by the special teams.

I agree.

They actually gave up 27 points, because 2 TDs were directly on returns. (One blocked punt for a TD, and a fumble return for a TD)

Of the the remaining points allowed, we had the ball turned over on our own 22, (TD) our own 38, (TD) our own 32, (FG) our own 46, (TD) and our own 21. (FG)

We also turned the ball over at our own 38 to end our final offensive possession of the game.

While the defense has to be able to stop the opposition, they can't be expected to do so every single time. Other teams have quality offenses. The days where defenses will always shut out the opposition are long gone. NFL offenses are too darn good. We put the defense in bad position after bad position after bad position. We forced the defense out of using their full package against the Bengals.

Look at how the defense did before the offense and special teams fell apart compared to how they did once they were forced into playing damage control. It's like night and day.

I'm not saying that the defense played perfectly, because they had issues once the offense and special teams fell apart. We failed to sack Dalton, and did give up too many easy plays after turnovers. However, the defense completely changed their approach once the wheels came off.

I didn't know this was ongoing or going on. Part of the answer depends on the reasons: 1) is it being done as an adjustment to "help" our secondary, especially LB coverage and weak safety play?; or 2) is it being done as part of a package to "fix" the outcomes of our RZone stats, a much higher and much too high number for NFL. Driving it has to be the crappy production and ongoing liability of this seemingly clueless offense. We may not have the horses needed, we may have lazy horses, we may be overdesigning plays above their ability, or maybe we aren't making our horses challenge their D enough. JC looked insanely different, double pumping, hesitant, holding the ball while changing his mind, and badly dumping to the checkdown almost exclusively. The deeper in the game, the shorter the routes thrown to, and this when we are behind. MANY passes were late, and VERY often behind receivers. Sideline routes favor the defender and provide help against a receiver. No Cameron to speak of until the 4th; few seam routes, and any success over the middle is apparently ignored, because we do not use it as often and as well as other teams. We don't get better on O until JC votes, Norv "adjusts" his plays to address and reverse this trend, and we unconfuse whatever changed Campbell so radically for Cinci game. And figuring out ST is a must.

pblack...how are those stats compiled - do you know?

Are they counting all plays run or pass?

When pass or run for that matter w/3-4 teams equal to 4-3 teams do they equate a blitz to be more than 4 regardless if its a LB or DL?

If so and we do a Zone Blitz...obviously by the name its a blitz...but we drop a DE into coverage as the LB blitzes but the numbers do not change so do the stat guys regard that as NO Blitz?

I think our Defense is playing lights out. Considering we are not complete with talent and we have not worked together for a season or two. Continuity is something we really haven't experienced. The Steelers have run a similar defense for what...25 years? Probably an exaggeration. I just think year 2 for us will be so much better. Instead of working on the X's n O's we will be working on the perfection of executing the many different blitzes and learn new ones. TIMING is so important.

I think we got good 1 n 2 CBs - SS is a keeper, FS is a pleasant surprise.
It has been mentioned here one of our Red Zone flaws is the inability to cover TEs. I think with the Spread offenses going crazy in college we can pick up in the draft a big Safety or a Light LB that is used for Spread Defense and improve on Robertson who isn't Horrific but still he is upgradeable. And we can always get another stud edge rusher. 3-4 cannot have too many. Eventually I see us keeping Sheard and letting Kruger go. Not that Kruger is playing bad - Just that Sheard is out playing him. Forget about Clowney but that Ford kid seems like a guy to get if we are so lucky.

I know I pointed out a specific play - also Vers among others have pointed out that the "STAT" of points score really do not define our Defense. How bout yards per play? we are #1 in the NFL in that stat.

But what I would like to see is when we do make those mistakes on O n ST (hopefully they can cut that down a lot) they come out there and stop the opponent from scoring a TD...make those mistakes only count as 3 points. I think that is where our Defense can improve. In no way am I disappointed in them just showing where we can improve.

Again this last game is a good example. 3, THREE First downs in the Half...and the Stat shows we gave up 31 points! I think that says it all

JMHO

Not picking a fight, but I need you to clarify this for me.

Are you saying that our overall scoring defense is indicative of our defensive performance and all the high-ranking stats are not indicative of how well our defense is playing?

If so, and that is a big if, I have to disagree w/you.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel our secondary is set. You don't need a bunch of first round studs. I feel our safeties are more than adequate. They RARELY get beat deep. Buster Skrine has come on strongly. I'd like to sign a vet to upgrade Chris Owens, but it would be a waste to use a high draft pick on a 3rd CB. Especially when I think Leon Mcfadden will eventually fill that role.

ILB needs upgraded though. Craig Robertson can be a fast, downhill, thumper (which is ironic for his size). However we need a guy that can defend the pass better. Craig will still have a role with the team. There's nothing wrong with depth.

A little Devil's Advocate: The ONLY stat that matters while standing on its own is points.

Giving up small chunks of yardage doesn't matter one bit if it still ends up in points on the board.... it's just a consolation prize.

LINK

Cleveland Browns' Barkevious Mingo has 1 sack in last 6 games and Ray Horton has challenged him to "do more for us''

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group
November 22, 2013 at 7:27 AM

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns first-round pick Barkevious Mingo has only one sack in his last six games, and defensive coordinator Ray Horton has called on him to step it up.

"I expect a lot from him, and I’m challenging him off the field -- meaning extra stuff to study and do more for us,'' said Horton.

Horton stressed that he's happy with his outside linebacker, but that he needs a nudge through that rookie wall that occurs at this time of year when their college seasons would be winding down.

"I’m throwing a lot more at him this week also to be accountable,'' said Horton. "We put a lot on the young man, and he’s playing different positions for us. . After Week 10 or 11, it’s an extended season for rookies. So it’s a big factor for us to gauge him how he’s doing in the workload and the home life and all that stuff [during] this last push of the season. But he’s doing everything we want.''

Asked specifically is Mingo doing enough to disrupt the quarterback, Horton answered in general terms.

"Well, obviously we want more wins, we want more sacks,'' he said. "Cincinnati was a different game in that they threw the ball quick. He got rid of it. We didn’t get a sack on him. But we held him to 118 yards passing and completion lows and all that, so there’s a lot of ways to affect the quarterback and one was pressure versus Andy Dalton. Statistically, it worked. We just didn’t come out with the [win].”

Mingo, the No. 6 overall pick, came back from a month off with a bruised lung in week two, stormed off the edge like a kid at an easter egg hunt, and registered sacks in each of his first three games.

It seemed almost too easy, and hadn't been done by an NFL rookie since 2004.

At that clip, he would've finished the season with 15 sacks -- likely good enough for top five in the NFL.

But then the opponents turned on the film and watched the lithe linebacker sprinting around the edge with his 4.53 speed and decided it had to stop.

And so it did. After collecting those first three sacks bang, bang, bang, Mingo has been stonewalled to just one in his last six outings for a team-leading total of four. At his current pace, he'll finish the season with 6.5.

"It's not going to be easy,'' Mingo said of getting more sacks. "This is the NFL. We're going against tackles that are top of the league. I'm going against guys that are as good or close to Joe Thomas and it's not going to be easy. They're not going to make it easy. They're not going to let me hit the quarterback, because they don't get paid to let that happen, so it's a different challenge. Every week's a different challenge and every week I have to be on my A-game to get those sacks.''

Have we seen Mingo's A-game yet?

"We'll find out at the end of the year as we're looking back on it,'' Mingo said. "I don't know.''

One NFL personnel man said Mingo will need to bulk up his 6-4, 240-pound frame over the next two offseasons and constantly work to develop better counter moves. Another said the Browns have nothing to worry about with Mingo because he's such an athletic freak, blending length and speed with deceptive strength and leverage. He also said he's perfectly suited to Horton's attack-minded 3-4 scheme and that he might get his second wind down the stretch.

He agreed that teams have figured out Mingo's moves and that he'll need to add to his repertoire, but said he's athletic enough to do so, and that he can play from both a two- and three-point stance. What's more Horton can move him around to create mismatches.

"Next year, this won't be an issue for the Browns,'' he said.

Teammate and fellow rusher Desmond Bryant is also confident that Mingo can choreograph new moves.

"He's one of the most talented athletes I've ever seen, so absolutely, if he really works hard,'' said Bryant. "It's a trial-and-error thing with him. He's got to learn how they're trying to going to try to attack him and learn new ways to beat what they're going to do and it's an ongoing battle as a d-lineman, as a rusher. ''

Bryant has already seen the rookie pick it up from a preparation standpoint.

"I think he's learning really how to be a pro more and more each week,'' said Bryant. "He missed some time obviously and he kind of got behind a little bit, but you know I think he's really picking it back up. I think he had some early success getting sacks his first couple of games. You're not going to go out and have a great play every play and obviously it's a matter of how you take those bad plays and you learn from them and you continue to grow.

"I think Barkevious has been doing a good job. He's picking up his coverages more. We've got some things that we try to do. We try to coordinate rushes on the d-line, and I think he's been doing a better job with that so I think he's going to continue to grow.

According to profootballfocus.com, Mingo is ranked 39th out of 40 outside linebackers playing in a 3-4 scheme. He's also 35th out of 40th in run defense and 37th overall pass-rush ability.

His four sacks are tied for 30th in the NFL, but 17th among 3-4 outside 'backers.

"It is going to happen,'' linebacker D'Qwell Jackson said Mingo's growing pains. "You hope they happen earlier than later. We've all been through it. He's a guy that's not fazed by anything and you can win with that. Just some things are going to happen, but he's been awesome for us.''

In addition to his pass-rush duties, Mingo plays a lot on special teams and was beat inside on the blocked punt in Cincinnati that was returned for a touchdown. Mingo took full responsibility and knows what to do next time.

"Not let it happen. Do my job,'' he said. "I didn't do my job in that play. Do my job the way it's been taught and the way we run it.''

Still, he doesn't think the special teams duties heap too much on his plate.

"It's fine,'' he said. "It's my job to do whatever they ask me to do and I feel fine doing all of it.

Mingo is not the only slumping rookie NFL pass-rusher. In fact, he's second among NFL rookies with his four sacks, behind only New England's Chris Jones, a sixth-round pick of the Texans out of Bowling Green, who was waived twice and picked up by the Patriots on Sept. 11. He's started five games and has five sacks. Here's how some of the other big-name rookie pass-rushers are faring:

* Pittsburgh's Jarvis Jones, the No. 17 overall pick, has one sack and recorded it just two games ago against the Bills. Jones, ranked 31st overall among 3-4 outside 'backers by profootballfocus.com, has also been demoted from his starting job.

* Miami's Dion Jordan, the No. 3 overall pick, also has one sack -- and it came in week one against the Browns. His snaps have also been very limited.

* Detroit's Ziggy Ansah, the No. 5 overall pick, has three sacks, but has been missed the past two games with an ankle injury.

Browns left tackle Joe Thomas said Mingo has plenty of moves and "I'm not worried about that at all.'' But he added, “If you want to survive in this league as a pass rusher, you’ve got to have at least two or three moves because just about every offensive tackle in the league can block one or two. The guys are players that survive in the league a long time, they’ve got more than one move, and it’s unpredictable.”

Mingo, who was set back significantly by the bruise lung, is trying not to get too fancy right now.

"You just go with your fastball,'' he said. "You might try to work on something else later, but at the end of the day you've got to go with what you know.''

In the meantime, he's trying to emulate some of the moves of his teammates in practice, including a signature one by Paul Kruger, who's been limited to 2.5 sacks this season.

"I don't know what you call it, but it's the coolest thing I've ever seen and it works,'' said Mingo. "It works for him, so I try my best to see if I can do it sometimes out in practice against the offense. I don't really know how you say what it is. It's just a natural movement and it works.''

Horton predicted last month that Mingo would be much-improved by Thanksgiving weekend, which means he's got one more game Sunday against the Steelers and Big Ben Roethlisberger to prove his coordinator right.

"Personally I'm trying to get better every week and what happens, happens,'' said Mingo.

Coaches and fans can talk about preparation until they are blue in the face but the reality with Mingo right now is that there isn't a softer OLB in the NFL today. He avoids contact, gets blown off of every block, and if he can't use his speed to get around the corner, he isn't going to pressure anyone. His spin-move is just the same as Wimbley's was, as it doesn't work when all you do is spin in place. It has to be set up, which is not about film study and assignments.

Plain and simple, Wimbley is all-world speed but all-world soft.

Can he get bigger? Anyone looking at his frame will see that there isn't much to work with. He's rail-thin for an OLB. However, I maintain it's not about his size, it's about his DESIRE. He doesn't get pushed back or taken out of plays because he's light-in-the-ass. He gets shoved around because he doesn't like to get in there and initiate contact.

I didn't care for the pick when we made it and I don't like it now. I hope he can get better but you can't teach desire. If the coaches are going to be honest with themselves, they'll admit they need to challenge his football man-hood.

Until Mingo decides he wants to be hard he isn't going to be a viable player for us.

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He agreed that teams have figured out Mingo's moves and that he'll need to add to his repertoire, but said he's athletic enough to do so, and that he can play from both a two- and three-point stance. What's more Horton can move him around to create mismatches.

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Reminiscent of Wimbley.

If he gets to Roth and pummel him as hard as he can I'll forget last week's abortion of a game by him and his overall disappointing season to date.

Like Horton, I expect more improvements as the season goes, but instead I've seen regression and a lot of apologies and talk about "potential", which always means you're not there yet at getting the job done. He was a 6th overall pick, so the bar is set understandably high. It's disappointing enough for me that he isn't a 3 down player at the end of his first season, but to see him struggle even in a situational role and brainfarting on ST makes it worse.

Talk is cheap, I've read the same things 2-3 weeks ago, so let your play speak. It's starting to remind me of TRich last year, though he does not have Trent's big head, Mingo seems much more humble, which is very encouraging, but his talk about "You just go with your fastball" to me is an indication that he doesn't get it yet and still tries to "overpower" OTs with his fastball, although they've already caught up to it and hit it (shut it down). To stay in the baseball metaphor, I think he's still a thrower that has ways to go to become a smart situational pitcher and his over pursuing on the field is proof for that mentality.

Same as with TRich, it might be excusable for now, but if we don't see signs of improvements to end the season, there's less reason for optimism that he'll get it next season.

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New England's Chris Jones, a sixth-round pick of the Texans out of Bowling Green

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I still don't understand how this happened. Don't these guys look at prospects outside AQ schools?

Random pseudo-rebutter: "But he was waived twice"

Reason: He was inappropriately drafted to a 3-4 team. He's a penetrating 4-3 DT.

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A little Devil's Advocate: The ONLY stat that matters while standing on its own is points.

Giving up small chunks of yardage doesn't matter one bit if it still ends up in points on the board.... it's just a consolation prize.

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Not trying to change your mind, but your statement sure doesn't change mine. I am not going to blame the defense for Obi fumbling the ball and having it returned for the TD. I won't blame them too much for having two punts blocked in our own territory. I won't blame them for the three interceptions. I won't blame them for the long punt return.

I thought our defense was outstanding. I think they have had a couple of bad games, most notably against Buffalo and Detroit, but otherwise, the eye test tells me they are playing very well.

It blows my mind Mingo is taking so much grief. We have a guy who whiffs like crazy and can't defend the pass and people act like he is the best safety in the league.

Meanwhile, Mingo has missed time due to injury and is learning a new position. He has made plays and has outperformed other guys from this draft. He is very raw and is only going to improve, yet people act like he sucks and is a finished product.

I am betting this guy ends up being a very productive player. He will continue to improve and all you guys who are bad-mouthing him will act like you were fans of his all along.

i think mingo has the tools and he will be good once he gains some technique and strength.

i don't get your hatred for TJ though. he's among the best SS in the NFL. he will miss some tackles going for the big hit but so do the other SS's and he's way better in coverage than you give him credit.

here are some mid-year All Pro where he's the starter or honorable mention on. NFL, SI, Yahoo!, PFF are the 4 first links before I stopped clicking. it's not just our fans, alot of respect for TJ Ward nationwide now:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/11/05/pffs-midseason-all-pro-team/2/

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...son-allpro-team

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/photos/1301/nfl-peter-king-all-pro-team/23/

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdo...19305--nfl.html

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It blows my mind Mingo is taking so much grief. We have a guy who whiffs like crazy and can't defend the pass and people act like he is the best safety in the league.

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If I may

I'm not going to defend Ward, as I've not been nearly as high on him as most around here. I sincerely doubt I could find it, but I'm still of the exact same opinion as I was last year about him. He does his best work near the line of scrimmage, and the closer he gets to where the football is snapped and moving forward, the better he is compared to his piers. Conversely, the further away he gets from the line of scrimmage while moving backwards, he gets progressively worse against the pass compared to his piers.

So where does that rank him? He's no pro-bowler to me, but he's part of the solution, not part of the problem. I could do without some of the undeserved self-bravado from him, but in today's NFL, where inferior players like Little do their best Mr. Olympia impersonations after each and every 8-yard first down, it's become the norm.

I just don't fully understand how Mingo correlates to Ward.

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Meanwhile, Mingo has missed time due to injury and is learning a new position.

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Before anyone suggests that Mingo missed his time in preseason but had more perceived success earlier in the season than now, I interpret the above statement in a broader sense of where he is in the bigger picture.

I disagree with the thought because of what I perceive his greatest weakness to be: Physicality.

I don't believe he's been noticeably injured since the pre-season, which would seemingly remove that as a reason for his lack of intensity. I would also note that changing positions doesn't have anything to do with being physical.

When watching him, whether it's rushing upfield, dropping into coverage, or blocking for punts, I constantly see a guy who isn't sticking his head in there and dishing out punishment. He's taking it...repeatedly...or in the case of that blocked punt, he didn't even try.

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He is very raw and is only going to improve, yet people act like he sucks and is a finished product.

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I would hope he improves, otherwise we made a terrible decision, and I'm not really sure I've seen anyone claim he's a finished product. He's got gifts. My big complaint is that he's unwilling to use them. He's gotta toughen up or he won't have a place in this league.

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I am betting this guy ends up being a very productive player. He will continue to improve and all you guys who are bad-mouthing him will act like you were fans of his all along.

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I'm less enthused about him but not willing to write him off. I will say the lack of effort and desire on his part is bordering on infuriating.

I have seen those. I have also watched the game w/my own eyes. I was saying guys like TRich and Weeden were overrated long before any site said it. Remember?

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If I may

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Of course.

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He does his best work near the line of scrimmage, and the closer he gets to where the football is snapped and moving forward, the better he is compared to his piers. Conversely, the further away he gets from the line of scrimmage while moving backwards, he gets progressively worse against the pass compared to his piers.

So where does that rank him? He's no pro-bowler to me, but he's part of the solution, not part of the problem.

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I agree w/that.

I don't want to get rid of the guy, but I won't be surprised if we don't resign him--especially if he wants big dollars. My beef w/him is that he is often in the wrong spot in coverages. It is Ward--not Gipson--w/the terrible instincts. Additionally, he ducks his head on too many tackles and whiffs. He had three alone in the Bengal game. Go back and look at Gresham's TD and watch Ward duck his head and fly by right in front of Gresham. He completely missed him.

The sites that rate these guys can say what they want, but plays like that are extremely obvious to anyone who is willing to be objective.

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Before anyone suggests that Mingo missed his time in preseason but had more perceived success earlier in the season than now, I interpret the above statement in a broader sense of where he is in the bigger picture.

I disagree with the thought because of what I perceive his greatest weakness to be: Physicality.

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That would make sense if one looked at his slight build. However, I am not "seeing" the same thing you are. I think the guy is actually very strong. He is rangy. Guys w/long muscles tend to be stronger than those who are bulked-up.

I think Mingo is suffering from a few things:

--He was thrust into the starting role when Sheard got hurt. He was working better as a situational player.
--He made a switch of positions.
--He has hit the proverbial rookie wall.
--He needs to learn more moves.
--He needs better discipline in regards to his defensive responsibilities.

I think his problems are more mental than physical. I think he is a beast physically. You can see that in the comments of the players who were interviewed. It will take time, but I think this guy is going to be a productive player for us.

I respect your comments and am not arguing w/you. Lord knows I don't want this to turn into another personality conflict like it has w/so many other posters.

We disagree right now on what we are seeing. No big deal. We both agree that he needs to improve. Heck, Horton has challenged him. I am NOT arguing that he is playing great.

I think we differ is why he is struggling a bit. And I do say a bit........because he would not be seeing the field if he was as bad as some are claiming he is. We have Sheard and Kruger. Both guys can play. We would not be playing Mingo as much as we are if he stunk as bad as many posters are saying.