|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481 |
Quote:
Bro, Ward is so overrated.
I actually posted a the responsibilities of a SS and the responsibilities of players in coverages for different positions in a Game Day thread. Obviously, almost every poster ignored those posts.
I understand coverages. I coached the game. I played the game. I scouted the game. I know when guys blow coverages. Very few people want to hear it. Instead, they watch a few dynamic plays and say the guy should be in the Pro Bowl.
His tackling is hit and miss. He makes some great tackles. However, he whiffs a lot. He ducks his head way too much. He rarely wraps. I even saw him take bad angles and jog in this past game.
I would have no problem if we let him walk. He's functional, but he is not a top 5 safety in the NFL.
let our pro bowl safety walk? yep, that solves it. browns fans can't be happy, at all with the few good players we have.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,479
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,479 |
Quote:
Bro, Ward is so overrated.
I actually posted a the responsibilities of a SS and the responsibilities of players in coverages for different positions in a Game Day thread. Obviously, almost every poster ignored those posts.
I understand coverages. I coached the game. I played the game. I scouted the game. I know when guys blow coverages. Very few people want to hear it. Instead, they watch a few dynamic plays and say the guy should be in the Pro Bowl.
His tackling is hit and miss. He makes some great tackles. However, he whiffs a lot. He ducks his head way too much. He rarely wraps. I even saw him take bad angles and jog in this past game.
I would have no problem if we let him walk. He's functional, but he is not a top 5 safety in the NFL.
I've already called you out and proved you wrong with stats on your fantasies that Ward is a bad player.. He plays SS not FS
Obviously, you ignored my posts because it ruined your agenda.
Meh.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Quote:
Bro, Ward is so overrated.
I actually posted a the responsibilities of a SS and the responsibilities of players in coverages for different positions in a Game Day thread. Obviously, almost every poster ignored those posts.
I understand coverages. I coached the game. I played the game. I scouted the game. I know when guys blow coverages. Very few people want to hear it. Instead, they watch a few dynamic plays and say the guy should be in the Pro Bowl.
His tackling is hit and miss. He makes some great tackles. However, he whiffs a lot. He ducks his head way too much. He rarely wraps. I even saw him take bad angles and jog in this past game.
I would have no problem if we let him walk. He's functional, but he is not a top 5 safety in the NFL.
I have no probs letting him walk either ... hes way way way overrated on this board ... and by some that I respect a lot ...
U know the other part that just makes me shake my head at the guys play ... he has been less inconsistent this year than in years past ... wonder if that has anything to do with it being his contract year ... is it because hes suddenly IMPROVED in coverage in his 4th year or is it cause its a contract year (and for u Ward Lovers I said he improved ... I didn't say he was good at it ... he moved from brutally horrible to just pretty bad ... so save it ... ) .....
to me this could just be another guy playing harder than he has in the past cause its his contract year ... it worries me that after he gets paid he will go back to coasting ...
if we sign him ... I'm ok with that also ... we could do worse ... look at Gipson .. *L* ... problem is no matter who gets him is going to be WAY OVERPAYING for dude ...
IMO with competent QB play we can win with Ward and Gipson NOW ... problem is were at least a few years from consistent QB play unless Hoyer gets the nod next year and continues to play like he did last year ... problem with that is .... how good is he???? .... very very small sample size and against two pretty poor D's .... Cinci's secondary was beyond banged up when we played him ..
Oh well ... what u gonna do ... hopefully we can find a QB somewhere ... if its Hoyer that's great ... would make me one happy camper no matter who it is or where they come from .... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805 |
Quote:
IMO with competent QB play we can win with Ward and Gipson NOW
No doubt about it and it blows thy mind how many fans can't see that. And we'll keep hearing it from now until May. And we'll hear all about how much is too much to move up for a Bridgewater.
The best one is this. Willingness to give our 2 first rounders this year to move up for Teddy, but unwillingness to add our 2015 first rounder to settle our putrid QB spot. We need it. He's worth it. You DO IT.
For the first time in forever our run D has actually been respectable yet our 3rd down defense is pathetic yet again, and it isn't because of Haden or any lack of pressure. It's got everything to do with our back-end coverage, including covering TE's and RB's out of the backfield.
I blame that solely on Robertson, Skrine, Ward and Gipson. 3 of those 4 are backups. I can live with or without Ward. It's been covered already that he can't cover squat. And his tackling quite frankly straight up sucks wind. Not exactly a recipe for a glowing review lol. But as you say, we could win with him and could do much worse.
I would NOT pay Ward top 5 money. EVER. So IMO he's gone. The other 3 I keep and replace all 3 with starters. Skrine gets alot of love around here but he still resembles a Nickel/Dime Corner. We need a big #2 Corner to pair up with Haden and get Skrine and McFadden into the Nickel/Dime slots. That would be a major improvement to the back end defense.
SS's equal to or better than Ward are not hard to come by. Regardless of what fans think. As you said, his secondary duty is stopping the run. When you have a solid front 7 you don't need 8 in the box. And I would not go after a high dollar FS like Byrd either. You can find a good center-fielder without laying out 8M a year for him. Gipson is solid depth.
We fix the #2 Corner spot and FS in Free Agency with the boatload of money we've got coming and get the SS in the draft along with a solid ILB to turn Robertson into depth and this defenses 3rd down efficiency will skyrocket because we've got the horses up front to pressure any QB. It's the backend we need help at.
Aqib Talib would be the perfect start.
Strike NOW while these solid corners can be had for 5 and 6M a year and not this crazy 12M a year Frisco gave Clements several years back. We missed the boat this year by not landing Lewis or Grimes. We cannot let it happen again.
We pounded the front 7 this year. Bryant, Kruger, Mingo, Groves. We need to do the same thing to the backend this year. And if Horton gets a HC'ing gig, we need to keep the ball rolling with Louie Cioffi promoted to DC.
We land the QB this year and within the next 2 years we will be battling Cincy for this division every damn year.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
See, I have a hard time understanding how anyone could expect the new FO to fix all the problems this franchise has in one year.
I know you think I expected this because of perceived regime agenda, but no matter who the GM or FO I made it perfectly clear well before Heckert was axed or Banner was hired that I expected us to ATTACK in the 2013 offseason. I was already disappointed in Heckert's 2012 FA, but was willing to wait it out, simply because my trust level was high on him, but 2013 I wanted us to attack and field a competent NFL team, NOT sign another 10 UDFA rooks to the roster instead and be the NFL's fringe talent playground another season.
We had the cap and the young players entering the prime years. I was happy about the Kruger and Bryant signings, but was disappointed that we stopped there. If they didn't believe we could win, why sign those two? Was it the "cost" of making the transition to the 3-4 only? Anyway, I was disappointed that they sat on 30mil and see so many good players get signed for little money, many CBs, ILBs went at bargain prices and we went into this seasons with low cost Owens (a dime back castoff from a weak ATL DB), a disappointing 3rd round rook and Robertson. If you do not agree that those positions cost us some wins, then so be it. I can agree to disagree, but that's what I saw too and every fan on here knew what our needs where. There was no need for an "evaluation year" on that side of the ball. They had enough tape to figure that much out. If we fans saw it, I expect FOs to see it too. Since I don't think they're stupid, that means that they were ok with not winning this season and I simply disagree considering where the team talent was at.
I mean, guys like you and other's who defend their decisions keep repeating how close we were this season. If we were close, why not USE the freaking 30mil of cap to get us over the hump?
Quote:
I think they made some good moves. I think they made some bad moves. Overall, I think the positives outweigh the negatives. Not asking for you--or anyone--to agree. That's just the way I see it.
We are close here, I think their draft was weak thus I'm more 50-50 overall and their prospects evaluation skills is what concerns me most going forward, thus my negativity. We will see and find out this upcoming drafts I guess, it's still wide open, just my opinion based on their background evaluations.
My problem has been and still is with the NON-moves. Those aren't really negatives, more like "missed opportunities" I just don't get, which means that their opinion of our roster was less optimistic than mine. You could say this season proved them right, but considering how it unfolded I think I have enough arguments to say it was a self-fulfilling prophecy because, like most of us say, we were really close to have a WC-type season. The talent and injury luck was there for a PO-run. In my eyes, we wasted a golden opportunity to change the culture, make a PO appearance to make them believe etc by sitting on those 30mil and make it an "evaluation year". It was a mistake in judgement imho and more than that a betrayal of what was promised when new ownership and FO took over.
Long story short: my biggest problem with the new regime hasn't been the day by day business (although not perfect: draft etc, but who is?). My biggest problem was a structural one. How they approached things. This already young roster didn't need another 10 UDFA rooks, to play the "diamond in the rough"-game (which they seemed to miss at too btw or does anyone see a Gipson, Robertson type bordering starter talent in the plethora of guys thy brought in? I don't) it needed proven VETS at obvious need positions. Give me just Dansby over Robertson and K.Lewis over Owens and we would be sitting here talking about a possible PO berth in week 17, that's the way I see it. The opportunity was there, but it was missed because of mis-evaluation of the talent at hand and/or more vain reasons. I don't know what is worse to be honest, so excuse my negativity, it's just the way I see this. Even the positives I was very happy about have turned out rather disappointing (Bess and Kruger), but again, my biggest problem was the structural thing of how they approached this season and roster. Especially considering their "promises". Am I asking too much for holding them accountable to their own word? I see an obvious discrepancy in talk and walk in words and actions. You seem to be ok with it and believe in their plan. I am not ok with being lied in my face and then see their little commitments and plans even fail (pass rush). That doesn't help my trust level in them and thus I see things more negatively probably
Quote:
FYI: I am not one of those people saying Hoyer is the answer. You took my reply out of context. Pit is the one preaching that nonsense about Hoyer. I say his body of work is too small to make an accurate evaluation. My point was that when we did have competent QB play, the defense also played better.
Sorry, if I did, but I read you that way. I get the argument, but already laid out in my last post why I think it is simply a fallacy. Our D was as inconsistent WITH him as without him, even by bottom line facts.
I think it would be incredibly stupid to go into next season with Hoyer as the designated starter. He should not be considered as anything more than a wildcard, especially after his injury. After two games there were people who thought Campbell was a viable NFL starter. How has that turned out after some more games? Sign a FA upgrade or a season one ready rookie, that's how I see it at QB. Hoyer's chances of being "the one" are incredibly slim imho.
As for the rest: I thank you for keeping trash talk and what I consider as your "crusade" against me at a minimal, but that's how I feel about the last parts of your posts, so I don't consider it worth a discussion, especially since it has nothing to do with the Browns. I'm content if we can keep discussions like this one confrontational but polite, no problem at all.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
I'm content if we can keep discussions like this one confrontational but polite...
As am I.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
This to both you and swish: First of all, Ward is not a Pro Bowler. He is an alternate. Being an alternate does not count as being a Pro Bowler. That could change if someone sits out and Ward takes his place. I just had to get that out there because on the Pro Bowl thread people are saying we had 6 Pro Bowlers. We have five. For now. Super, you didn't prove anything. Those stats were flawed. They totally ignore the blown coverages aspect of things. That same site had John Hughes as our best defensive lineman. You say you ruined my agenda. Okay, tell me............what is my agenda? I would like to know what it is before I respond to you about it. If my agenda is evaluating players on how they performing---both good and bad---than what of it? I have clearly listed Ward's strengths. I also list his negatives. Somehow, on a board that loves black and white, that is an agenda. I do find it humorous how huffy you and Swish get about this topic. It's a football discussion. It's not like back in the day when people were arguing about capitalism vs. communism. There is no ideology here. It's player evaluation. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Quote:
I have no probs letting him walk either ... hes way way way overrated on this board ... and by some that I respect a lot ...
U know the other part that just makes me shake my head at the guys play ... he has been less inconsistent this year than in years past ... wonder if that has anything to do with it being his contract year ... is it because hes suddenly IMPROVED in coverage in his 4th year or is it cause its a contract year (and for u Ward Lovers I said he improved ... I didn't say he was good at it ... he moved from brutally horrible to just pretty bad ... so save it ... ) .....
to me this could just be another guy playing harder than he has in the past cause its his contract year ... it worries me that after he gets paid he will go back to coasting ...
if we sign him ... I'm ok with that also ... we could do worse ... look at Gipson .. *L* ... problem is no matter who gets him is going to be WAY OVERPAYING for dude ...
IMO with competent QB play we can win with Ward and Gipson NOW ... problem is were at least a few years from consistent QB play unless Hoyer gets the nod next year and continues to play like he did last year ... problem with that is .... how good is he???? .... very very small sample size and against two pretty poor D's .... Cinci's secondary was beyond banged up when we played him ..
Oh well ... what u gonna do ... hopefully we can find a QB somewhere ... if its Hoyer that's great ... would make me one happy camper no matter who it is or where they come from ....
--If Ward wants reasonable money, it would be fine to keep him. I can even see overpaying for him a bit. That happens when guys become free agents, just like we paid more for Kruger and Bryant. However, if Ward wants top top 3-4 safety money, I think the FO would be foolish to keep him. Which means they will probably keep him because the Browns rarely have ever done what I thought they should have. LOL
--I don't think Ward has improved because it's his contract year. I think the differences we have seen in him this year are due to Horton's schemes. I think Horton has Ward attack a little bit more. He has also protected him in coverages by assigning linebackers to guys Ward should be covering.
I really thought Ward was going to have a huge year in this scheme. I mean --huge!! I even said it before the season that he was the one guy I thought who would benefit most from us hiring Horton. He does make some very nice plays. He makes some flashy plays. There is no denying that, but I have expected more.
--We do need good QB play. Hoyer looked good and the team responded to him. But, like you say, the sample size was way too small. We need Bridgewater, bro. This kid is the antithesis of Weeden in that he is freaking brilliant on the football field. The more I watch of him, the more I like him. It's amazing how well he reads defenses pre-snap and coverages post-snap. And he gets rid of it so freaking quick. I'm w/K-whip in that we should do what we have to do to get this guy. You know I am not good at figuring out the value of picks. I never got into that stuff. But, I do know that we should offer exactly what it is worth to move up and grab this guy. He's going to be a great professional qb. He has it upstairs, Diam. And Hoyer would be a great guy to keep around. Two guys who get it. If Hoyer has to start for a year.........that would be fine.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I'll start w/this. Quote:
I'm content if we can keep discussions like this one confrontational but polite, no problem at all.
Sounds good to me. Heck, we don't even have to be confrontational all the time. I actually responded to you in College Football thread about linebackers. I was hoping you would answer. I'd like to hear your take on the guys I added to the discussion.
Quote:
We had the cap and the young players entering the prime years. I was happy about the Kruger and Bryant signings, but was disappointed that we stopped there. If they didn't believe we could win, why sign those two? Was it the "cost" of making the transition to the 3-4 only? Anyway, I was disappointed that they sat on 30mil and see so many good players get signed for little money, many CBs, ILBs went at bargain prices
I understand. I wanted another corner, too. However, w/the way Skrine has played, I think they made a good move not spending the money. We do know they offered Grimes a nice contract. I was hoping we would sign him. He chose Miami over us and I think he made the Pro Bowl this year. At least they targeted the right guy. It's hard for Cleveland to compete w/Miami unless we offer a guy a lot more money.
I do think we could have went after Dansby. He's a good player and was available. He would have helped.
Quote:
I mean, guys like you and other's who defend their decisions keep repeating how close we were this season.
I don't remember saying how close we are. There are a lot of guys saying that. I don't think I have been one of them. I have stated that we must get the QB position fixed, but I don't think I ever said we would be a legit contender if we got one. I am the guy who keeps saying we need to bring some players in here who will change the culture. I am also the one saying some of our guys are overrated by most fans.
Quote:
We are close here, I think their draft was weak thus I'm more 50-50 overall and their prospects evaluation skills is what concerns me most going forward, thus my negativity. We will see and find out this upcoming drafts I guess, it's still wide open, just my opinion based on their background evaluations.
I don't know how they will draft. I know you don't like what we did this year. However, I did like it. Our number one need at the end of last year was to get an edge rusher. Well, we went out and signed the #1 edge rusher in FA and chose the best [imo] edge rusher in the draft. I don't want to argue about whether or not they were the best guys. I understand that you--and others--think/thought other guys were better. Let's just say it is arguable. What I really liked is how we positioned ourselves for this upcoming draft, which is a much better draft than last year's. I actually had a hard time even discussing that past draft. It was probably the weakest I have seen in over a decade.
With that said, I will be watching this draft closely. For example, if we draft Carr or Hundley as our franchise qb...........hmmmmm........I better not say as this is a family board. I also won't be happy if we draft a WR w/our first overall pick. I know Watkins and Evans are the flavors of the day, but a guy like Beckham Jr. would be a great investment in round 2.
Quote:
I think it would be incredibly stupid to go into next season with Hoyer as the designated starter. He should not be considered as anything more than a wildcard, especially after his injury. After two games there were people who thought Campbell was a viable NFL starter. How has that turned out after some more games?
I was never a fan of Campbell and I don't think he is as good as people were saying earlier in the year. I also don't think he is as bad as people are making him out to be now. Some are putting all the blame on him because they wanna say how close we are. It is my opinion that his receivers have sucked the last couple of weeks. In fact, I would say they have pretty much quit!
Hoyer's sample size is too small to count on him. However, I liked what I saw. The Browns probably do, too. I think he should get an opportunity to compete for the starting position.
I also think we should do what we have to do to get Bridgewater. I am not saying to be as stupid as Washington was w/St. Louis. But, I do think we should offer fair market value to secure the first overall pick in the draft. I think Bridgewater is a can't miss QB. The more I watch of him, the more I like him. Smartest qb, other than Luck, to come out in years. His intelligence rivals guys like Luck, Rodgers, and P. Manning.
I would be perfectly fine if we went into next season w/Hoyer, Teddy, and Campbell as our three QBs. Heck, I wouldn't just be fine...........I would be ecstatic. 
Which means it probably has no chance of happening.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,205
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,205 |
I agree on Ward. If we can keep him, fine, if not, no big deal. I don't think he would be all that hard to replace.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
I still think the biggest mistake being made with regards to Ward is neglecting the position he plays. Most arguments against Ward are based on the imho FALSE premise that SS and FS play in inter-changable.
He's a SS, please find me 5 better SS today without a bunch of fans lamenting parts of their game. They do not exist.
Posters keep harping on Ward mis-reading or not covering like a FS. Well, he's NOT a FS, so stop holding up double standards. I do not see many Steelers fans saying Pola is/was overrated because he sucked (and still sucks) in coverage.
Ward or Pola, like many other SS, plays over 60% of his snaps around the LOS. It's the most important part of his job and he's elite at that. He's also much better (actually pretty good compared to other SS) man to man vs TEs than people on here think. He's AVG at best in zone and there are probably 10 or so SS better than him at that, but they don't come close to him at the other stuff I mentioned.
Ward is a top 5 if not top 3 SS. Everybody who disagrees should give me 5 names of SS and their scouting reports. Good luck.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Quote:
I still think the biggest mistake being made with regards to Ward is neglecting the position he plays. Most arguments against Ward are based on the imho FALSE premise that SS and FS play in inter-changable.
I don't know about others, but I am not making that mistake.
My points are that his coverage skills are poor. His tackling is suspect. He flashes brilliance, but makes a lot of bad plays.
One more thing. This is a passing league. Why in the world would be Ward top 3 or 4 safety money when he can't cover like a FS. I would rather throw bigger money at a FS than a SS, and that shouldn't even be up for debate.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Great post about Ward
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481 |
Quote:
Quote:
I still think the biggest mistake being made with regards to Ward is neglecting the position he plays. Most arguments against Ward are based on the imho FALSE premise that SS and FS play in inter-changable.
I don't know about others, but I am not making that mistake.
My points are that his coverage skills are poor. His tackling is suspect. He flashes brilliance, but makes a lot of bad plays.
One more thing. This is a passing league. Why in the world would be Ward top 3 or 4 safety money when he can't cover like a FS. I would rather throw bigger money at a FS than a SS, and that shouldn't even be up for debate.
he doesn't cover like a FS because he isn't one?
polumalu isn't the greatest at coverage either. neither is eric berry. or cam chancellor.
as a matter of fact. lets look at those 3 2013 season overall compared to ward's. and for troy, his 4th season stats compared to ward.
Eric Berry:
http://www.nfl.com/player/ericberry/496723/careerstats
Troy:
http://www.nfl.com/player/troypolamalu/2505621/careerstats
Ward:
http://www.nfl.com/player/t.j.ward/494323/careerstats
Kam:
http://www.nfl.com/player/kamchancellor/494257/careerstats
ward flat out SLAUGHTERS all 3 in tackles, combine, total, assis.
eric berry has 3 sacks. troy has 2, and ward has 1.5
kam has zero.
ward has 7 pdef. troy has 11, berry has 10 and kam has 6.
eric berry and kam have 3 int. ward and troy have 2.
ward has a better season than any of them, but the difference is eric berry and kam are on winning teams, and the steelers are fighting for a playoff spot.
make no mistake, if we were in the playoffs, ward wouldn't be an alternate, he'd be an official 6th pro bowler.
so the only 3 SS you can say is better than ward are in the probowl, with ward right behind them in ballots.
so i guess our SS being overated and not being with top 3-5 money is kinda...well just wrong.
whoa... as a matter of fact Vers. lets look at the 3 FS that are pro bowlers.
Byrd:
http://www.nfl.com/player/jairusbyrd/79899/careerstats
who only played 10 games this season.. lol.
Eric Weedie:
http://www.nfl.com/player/ericweddle/2495775/careerstats
Earl Thomas:
http://www.nfl.com/player/earlthomas/2508080/careerstats
Earl Thomas is the only safety statistically way better than Ward.
every other safety on that list, including the FS, ward has similar numbers or BEATS them in.
the only thing separating the pro bowl, minus Byrd, is that they are all on winning teams.
so please, keep going on about how ward is overrated.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 77,815
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 77,815 |
Quote:
FYI: I am not one of those people saying Hoyer is the answer. You took my reply out of context. Pit is the one preaching that nonsense about Hoyer. I say his body of work is too small to make an accurate evaluation. My point was that when we did have competent QB play, the defense also played better.
I have never said Hoyer was the answer. I said he played competently and the team overall responded well because of it. Pretty much the same thing you said.
I would never say a QB was "the answer" based on such a small body of work.
So I'm not "preaching nonsense" as you wish to say.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481 |
and just to continue on about Ward, and our secondary in general: you like to say haden and them quit? ward? how about the the unit we spent the most money on in the off-season? http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?t...;seasonType=REGall that money, and we are 14th in the nfl in sacks. weren't we 3rd going into the 2nd baltimore game? do you realize how big of a drop that is? we once again put our secondary in crap situations because we couldn't get to the passer. wasn't that the theme LAST YEAR? and zero has changed. lol wait, and DJ will LOVE this: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?a...e&Submit=Gowe have a whopping ONE. ONE. ONE more sack this year than last year. one. uno. eins(german). ichi(japanese). and you wanna blame ward and haden for quiting? those guys are probowlers. how bout the front 7 for quiting.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 77,815
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 77,815 |
It's still the honeymoon phase. Didn't you know that? 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
You are using numbers to make your argument. I have acknowledged the numbers. How many times do you need me to say it? I am saying that I have seen him out of position in coverages more times than I can count. I am saying he is an inconsistent tackler. Man, it is really hard to have an intelligent conversation on here. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481 |
Quote:
You are using numbers to make your argument. I have acknowledged the numbers. How many times do you need me to say it?
I am saying that I have seen him out of position in coverages more times than I can count. I am saying he is an inconsistent tackler.
Man, it is really hard to have an intelligent conversation on here.
so are half the safeties that i listed. you say intelligent conversation? i posted no shots, just straight facts, i dunno how much more intelligent i can get.
you are only critical of ward because thats the main player you watch on our favorite team.
but i watch a lot of seahawks and kansas city games as well. how many times was eric berry out of position? our crap offense did really good against them.
all i'm saying is if you want to go on the "watch the film" inconsistent argument, the only viable way your argument will work is if you watch all the other starting safeties for the entire season, something me and you won't do because we don't get paid to deal with that craziness.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,236
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,236 |
Swish, don't get so hung up on Vers. He is simply not a numbers guy. Which to some degree he has a point. You can misinterpret to fit any argument. Vers is all about x's and o's.
I too was very critical on Ward until I saw similar numbers you posted. In the big picture, what is it telling us? Safeties are a secondary position. Ed Reed was a superstar but after that there is no equal. When you get right down to it Safeties rank right up there with FB's and OG.
I live near St. Louis. Personally I think their offense would elevate two fold if they had a reliable FB. Not once has the media or fans state Rams need a FB. Every year they whine and complain FO neglects getting receivers. Two years ago Rams drafted 3. Last year they drafted a second round receiver. This year they traded up getting Austin in the first. Yet, fans still complain!
Browns Fans worry way...way to much on secondary positions such as OG, FB, FS, and SS. Ask Vers about Vickers. Mention his name and you can almost see a left nostril flare up on the message board!! Would it be nice having top talent? Sure it would. Do we need top talent in these position in order to be successful? No...look at the Steelers. I do think Polamalu is overrated. He plays half a season, and he is a major risk taker who wins more than he loses. He is able to do the things he does because of superior talent elsewhere.
On defense, Browns need focus on LB. After all they play a 3-4. You can't have enough quality LB's. I like DQ, but he is 31. New leadership is needed to take over soon. MLB are easy to find, like WR, but quality is hard nut to crack. Once the QB issue is resolve, Browns need to work on the next commander and chief on defense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,479
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,479 |
Quote:
You are using numbers to make your argument. I have acknowledged the numbers. How many times do you need me to say it?
I am saying that I have seen him out of position in coverages more times than I can count. I am saying he is an inconsistent tackler.
Man, it is really hard to have an intelligent conversation on here.
yeah.... especially when Ward was second in the NFL last year in the least tackles missed of all safety's
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/29/pffs-top-101-of-2012-101-to-91/
Key Stat: Missed just one tackle for every 17.5 he attempted in 2012. That was the second best number of all safeties.
 of course it's hard to have an intelligent conversation. you argue over ridiculous stuff that I have already shared the data to prove you wrong on.
also....
Ward is more than just adequate in coverage, allowing just 12 receptions into his coverage all year. -last year
Meh.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/12/27/3tfo-browns-steelers-week-17-2/T.J. Ward Troy Polamalu and Ed Reed might be the more famous AFC North safeties over the past few years; however T.J. Ward has taken their crown as the best safety in the AFC North for the past two seasons. Ever since Ward entered the league in 2010 he has graded in the Top 10 in run defense and in the past two years he has improved his play to become the best run defender in the league at safety. He currently leads all safeties with 28 stops, which gives him a Run Stop Percentage of 7.1%.Where Ward is an elite run defender his ability in pass coverage has improved to the point where he has become a Top-15 coverage safety as well. When Ward has been in coverage this season opposing teams have targeted him 49 times and he’s surrendered 29 receptions but has only allowed an 8.6 yard average, which is the ninth-lowest number in the league for safeties. Ward and the Browns’ backfield will be challenged by the Steelers’ passing game. Ward’s +4.3 coverage grade and Joe Haden‘s +3.2 are balanced in the Cleveland starting secondary by the -4.7 and -8.1 marks of Tashaun Gibson and Buster Skrine, respectively. Gibson has had a rough second half of the season and Skrine has had major difficulty — now the fifth-lowest ranked CB this season.We have a good SS and CB1. We need a FS and CB2
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
He had another "great" game today.  I just love guys who don't have a clue trying to use numbers and articles to argue football. Weren't some of you the same guys telling me I was whacked about TRich and Weeden? This thread had such good possibilities, but you guys want to focus on Ward. I am not going to try and change your mind. He's great. Now, go bug someone else.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,479
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,479 |
Quote:
He had another "great" game today.
I just love guys who don't have a clue trying to use numbers and articles to argue football.
Weren't some of you the same guys telling me I was whacked about TRich and Weeden?
This thread had such good possibilities, but you guys want to focus on Ward.
I am not going to try and change your mind. He's great. Now, go bug someone else.
I love when people argue over things like he whiffs all the time and I show proof that he is the 2nd most sure tackling S in the NFL.
I was the guy who Hated Weeden before we drafted him. I was not a fan of Trich. I wanted Doug Martin and Maurice Claiborne.
I just think you are wrong about Ward and still think he is the same player he was 3 years ago
Meh.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481 |
Quote:
He had another "great" game today.
I just love guys who don't have a clue trying to use numbers and articles to argue football.
Weren't some of you the same guys telling me I was whacked about TRich and Weeden?
This thread had such good possibilities, but you guys want to focus on Ward.
I am not going to try and change your mind. He's great. Now, go bug someone else.
you're boys kruger and mingo had a good game too...oh wait.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,374
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,374 |
Do you think some times they just rotate guys too much..... And they just really don't get a chance to get into a groove ?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I just said Ward was great. Now how about the two of you just go away. Ward is great and we should make him the highest paid player in the entire NFL.
Now, will the two of you go away?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481 |
Quote:
I just said Ward was great. Now how about the two of you just go away. Ward is great and we should make him the highest paid player in the entire NFL.
Now, will the two of you go away?
nope still gonna be here, especially since you're wrong about the FO now lol.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Just like I was wrong about so many other things, right Swish?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,479
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,479 |
Quote:
Just like I was wrong about so many other things, right Swish?
meh... I think you are right about a lot of things... just not Ward.
Meh.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19,566
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19,566 |
Mingo's rookie year outpaces top sackers The rookie season Cleveland Browns outside linebacker Barkevious Mingo had compared favorably to the first years of the top pass rushers of 2013. Just how good of a rookie season did Cleveland Browns outside linebacker Barkevious Mingo have? Despite missing a month of action with a bruised lung suffered in a 24-6 preseason victory over the Detroit Lions at FirstEnergy Stadium on Aug. 15, Mingo registered five sacks in 15 games this season. When compared to the rookie seasons of the five players who registered the most sacks in the NFL this year, Mingo, the No. 6 overall pick in the 2013 NFL Draft, had the most productive first year. Indianapolis outside linebacker Robert Mathis registered 20 solo tackles, 3.5 sacks and one pass breakup in 2003, while St. Louis defensive end Robert Quinn totaled 20 solo stops, five sacks and defended two passes in 2011. As a rookie, Carolina defensive end Greg Hardy totaled 24 tackles, one pass breakup and three sacks in 2010, while Buffalo defensive end Mario Williams collected 35 tackles, three passes defended and 4.5 sacks with the Houston Texans in 2006. New Orleans defensive end Cameron Jordan registered only one sack and 18 solo tackles in his first professional season two years ago. Even though he played barely half of the defense’s total snaps, Mingo registered 29 solo stops and five sacks with one pass breakup. “Just his raw ability and explosive athletic ability and talent gives him an edge,” said former NFL defensive back and current CBS football analyst Solomon Wilcots. “He hit a wall, as all rookies do, because once pro teams figure out, ‘Okay, this is what you do best,’ they’re going to take that away. “What they tried to do is make him be more of a complete football player, make him play the run, make him do some things differently. I think he did a good job. I think he worked his way through some tough, difficult moments and get a whole season under his belt.” On a third of his snaps, Mingo was dropping into pass coverage. However, he still managed to finish second on the team overall and third among all NFL rookies in sacks despite switching from a 4-3 defensive end at Louisiana State University to a 3-4 outside linebacker in the NFL. “He’s long, got long arms, and that’s key to being able to get extension on offensive linemen, be able extend the arms, release and get off blocks,” Wilcots said. “He’s got the ability to turn the corner with great speed and quickness, great body lean in terms of playing the pass and rushing the quarterback. “The key is learning how to keep the leverage on the ball when he’s playing against the run. The run defense is part of where he needs to get better and I think he did get better as the season went on.” Having watched the productivity Mingo was able to produce as a rookie in the NFL, Wilcots believes the Browns’ outside linebacker has a bright future. “The one thing that was natural was rushing the passer,” Wilcots said. “I thought he was very natural in dropping into pass coverage as well. I thought he was better than maybe what I anticipated. “He’s a smart kid and he’s got a tremendously high football IQ, so you can ask him to do a number of different things and his skill set will allow him to do a number of different things. His football IQ will also allow him to do a number of things that are required by an outside linebacker in a 3-4 defense.” http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...e2-5ba6a5fe618a
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Wilcots makes some very good observations which I think are dead on. I just hope we don't switch to a 4-3.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19,566
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19,566 |
j/c From First in Focus: End of Season Report 6. Barkevious Mingo, OLB, Cleveland Browns Grade: -10.8Snaps: 668 Analysis: Simply didn’t produce the kind of immediate impact the Browns were hoping for, finishing the year our fourth lowest ranked 3-4 outside linebacker and never really threatening the playing time of Jabaal Sheard or Paul Kruger. Like DC Ray Horton said, needs to do more rushing the passer. http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/01/first-in-focus-end-of-season-report/
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,226
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,226 |
1) Failure to tackle 2)Failure to cover 3) Failure to blitz well 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,393
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,393 |
Quote:
1) Failure to tackle
2)Failure to cover
3) Failure to blitz well
They tackled, covered and blitzed Very well at times and not at all other times.
They were inconsistent. For me, that was the real problem.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 16,176
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 16,176 |
Quote:
Ok, we are a very respectable 5th in the NFL in total yards allowed...
5th in pass defense..
8th in rush defense...
We are a middle of the pack 17th in points allowed...
Now to the discussion point.. one of the reasons we are lower in points allowed is because we are dead last in red zone defense allowing touchdowns over 67% of the time, while better teams are under 50%, and some teams are in the 32-35% range....
So what are we doing or not doing, what are our deficiencies that cause us to be a very good defense between the 20s but become so easy to score on once we are in the red zone?
Easy Peasy... The Clev offense couldn't stay on the field to spell the defense, and there was zero defensive talent depth on the bench.
Next question?
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,915
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,915 |
Defense? Probably back to the 4-3 next year. Why? Because once again it sets us back a season so of COURSE we'll go back to the 4-3. Then we get to figure out if Mingo can play Defensive End.... and Kruger doesn't fit so well.... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
is it because hes suddenly IMPROVED in coverage in his 4th year or is it cause its a contract year (and for u Ward Lovers I said he improved ..
Actually I think it was the defense that we ran...it was perfect for him he was utilized as a weapon...Not as effective as Palo but he is utilized as a weapon as well and changed that entire defense to be the Championship dominating D...when he is gone they take a big drop...of course we can let Ward walk and watch the Steelers pay the top dollar for him as a FA.
Will he be as good in another D...will we try to maintain an attack 3-4 regardless if we hire Schwartz or not...remember that D was a directive of Haslam...it was the only schematics he talked about after taking over ownership of what he wanted here!
I don't think Ward is Over rated at all. Do I think Vers is blinded by agenda...ehhhh I think he's biased in a lot of areas but he won't make up mistakes that he sees. But I think what people don't realize is EVERY FOOTBALL PLAYER MAKES MISTAKES...and if you break down every game I can give you Palo mistakes and state man he's over rated. That is my point I think Ward is better than the average Safety and he is here. Will the new defense dummy him down a bit? Maybe why the Franchise tag comes up...see how he fits in it...and try to draft a SS prospect then continue to pursue Ward Long Term or let him go...but to let him go with Nothing in sight as a replacement and we won't get too much better if at all in FA and rookies need time to learn no matter how talented.
Unless you all think that kid from ND on our practice squad will be ready...I don't see any of those as upgrades. This FO has committed itself to WIN NOW...they cannot afford a season where we will be 4-5 wins again. They will not make the same FO moves of UDFA depth for the LONG TERM...this season I expect a lot of FA depth - not big time contracts just one or two of those but several Groves/Owens type of contracts!
But to let Ward walk without any compensation is a failure. If they don't think he fits in their new plans...sign him and then trade him! But to lose good drafted players (we never had many of those before coming up with 2nd contracts) without obtaining draft picks...is a major loss.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19,566
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19,566 |
Quote:
is it because hes suddenly IMPROVED in coverage in his 4th year or is it cause its a contract year (and for u Ward Lovers I said he improved ..
...And the same argument can be made about Mack. This is arguably Mack's best year even with poor guard play.....He's also in a contract year.
Bottom line for me, from both Mack and Ward, you've seen progress and improvement EVERY year. They've gotten better and have been acknowledged for their success.
Ward's pass coverage has improved along with his run stopping. He is just far superior at the latter portion. Personally, I don't think he "suddenly" got better in pass coverage, I think he's improved in that area each year. Since he's come into the league, he has gone down a path where at the end of each season, you can say he is better than the year before. And now, he is dominant against the run while average in coverage.
Many analysts, journalists, coaches, players, etc. rank him as one of the top SS right now. I've seen more than one site opine he's the best SS against the run, middle of the pack in coverage.
He needs to be re-signed. He's one of our best defenders.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Is TJ ever going to be a great coverage Safety? I doubt it.
Is he basically an extra (smaller) Linebacker at times? Seems that way.
Is he a guy that can be a key piece to a defense? I think so.
You usually shouldn't let those guys go...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The defense
|
|
