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The guy who gets the most love of the four is
Haden. the other guy you mentioned only gets discussed more because you bring him up in every thread. this one is about Haden, who has been playing amazing. let's keep it about him . thanks.
Browns' Josh Gordon not among top-10 Pro Bowl vote getters at WR
BEREA, Ohio – Browns receiver Josh Gordon is putting up big numbers everywhere – except at the Pro Bowl ballot box.
The record-setting wideout is not listed among the top-10 vote getters in the early Pro Bowl voting results, released Wednesday by the NFL.
Gordon has broken the franchise-record for single-game receiving yards in the past two weeks, and leads the NFL averaging 124.9 yards per game. He’s second to Detroit’s Calvin Johnson in receiving yards with 1,249.
But that’s not good enough for voters. The top-10 thus far are: Calvin Johnson (Detroit), A.J. Green (Cincinnati), Dez Bryant (Dallas), Demaryius Thomas (Denver), Wes Welker (Denver), Brandon Marshall (Chicago), DeSean Jackson (Philadelphia), Jordy Nelson (Green Bay), Andre Johnson (Houston), Eric Decker (Denver).
Gordon is coming off performances of 237 and 261 yards against Pittsburgh and Jacksonville respectively.
The Browns’ Jordan Cameron ranks fourth among tight ends, Joe Thomas is third among tackles, T.J. Ward is seventh among strong safeties and Joe Haden is ninth among cornerbacks.
The highest-ranking Brown is Chris Ogbonnaya, who’s second among fullbacks.
Fan balloting counts for one-third of the final vote. The coaches and players make up the other two thirds.
Fans can vote at NFL.com up until Dec. 26.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/team/1386210956-838-576/browns-josh-gordon-not-among.html
Just a reminder to vote and vote often. If Gordon doesn't get in it'll be a crime. The guy has put up phenomenal stats with a carousel of mediocrity at QB.
Haden too deserves his day in Honolulu.
Though Cameron hasn't been utilized as well in the redzone since Hoyer got crumpled he's still put up PB stats.
Might as well get Joe there. Though we can point out the few bad plays he's still a rock solid LT. Let's keep his perfect attendance to the Pro Bowl intact.
Vote vote vote!!
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Seriously, let's help Gordon get in there. Give him that boost and extra incentive to maybe keep outta trouble, cause he's an offensive nightmare. I liked what Belicheck (sp?) said about him during one of his recent conferences. Him and Haden and of course Joe have deserved to be voted. I've voted three times already for those and a few others (like Phil Taylor) and etc... Get it done Dawgs! 
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...another reminder to the democrats here. You can vote as often as you wish, but unlike the presidential election you can use your real identity.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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On a serious note ..... it is amazing how many guys we have who are really either Pro Bowl caliber, or close to it.
You can make a serious argument for: (even if they might not win, they still have to be in the debate)
Obi (as a FB)
Gordon
Cameron
Thomas
Mack
Bryant
Taylor
DQ
Haden
Ward
That's 10 guys who are possible Pro Bowl types.
I would rate guys like Rubin, Sheard, Kruger, and Skrine as NFL average or above.
That's 14 out of 22 starters.
Man, if we can just get the damn QB spot figured out this could be a very good team, especially with the cap space and draft picks we have. .
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Remember a few years ago we were all having a discussion on here with difficulty naming a single play-maker on the team or even anyone the opposition had to game plan for?
#gmstrong
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Remember a few years ago we were all having a discussion on here with difficulty naming a single play-maker on the team or even anyone the opposition had to game plan for?
Yep.
The talent level has definitely been upgraded over the past few years. I really like a lot of what Heckert did, and I like a lot of what the new brain trust did this past off-season as well.
I just hope that we find a QB who slips, and who winds up being a great QB ... like when Marino fell oto the Dolphins, or when Roethlisberger fell to the Steelers. It would be great to see the Browns finally get a break like that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Remember a few years ago we were all having a discussion on here with difficulty naming a single play-maker on the team or even anyone the opposition had to game plan for?
I remember many years us arguing hard about our two best pro bowl opportunities.. our kicker and our kick returner..
This is an 11-5 team waiting for its quarterback...
yebat' Putin
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2nd String
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This is an 11-5 team waiting for its quarterback...
+1
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This is an 11-5 team waiting for its quarterback...
Spot on ... we're last year's Chiefs basically.
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~ Legend
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Quote:
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Remember a few years ago we were all having a discussion on here with difficulty naming a single play-maker on the team or even anyone the opposition had to game plan for?
Yep.
The talent level has definitely been upgraded over the past few years. I really like a lot of what Heckert did, and I like a lot of what the new brain trust did this past off-season as well.
I'm sorry friend, but you should know that you can only like what either Heckert or the Brain Trust have done, you cannot have both. Please rectify this by beginning to hate one of the regimes.
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This is an 11-5 team waiting for its quarterback...
Spot on ... we're last year's Chiefs basically.
I can't see how you can say that. Our defense is not nearly as good. Even when Jason Cambell has played like a top end QB we've lost and we don't have anyone close to Jamal Charles.
While I agree we have QB issues, I think the Cheifs are a much more talented football team. They have a #1 overall selection playing right tackle because they can.
Sorry, they are far more talented.
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Back to Haden.
He has given up three late game-altering TD passes in the last three weeks.
He is so talented. Sometimes I wonder if he has intestinal fortitude to be truly great.
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This is an 11-5 team waiting for its quarterback...
Spot on ... we're last year's Chiefs basically.
I can't see how you can say that. Our defense is not nearly as good. Even when Jason Cambell has played like a top end QB we've lost and we don't have anyone close to Jamal Charles.
While I agree we have QB issues, I think the Cheifs are a much more talented football team. They have a #1 overall selection playing right tackle because they can.
Sorry, they are far more talented.
The Chiefs defense last year was 25th in points and 20th in yards.. ours is 19th in points and 7th in yards.... Their offense scored 211 points all year, we have already scored 257... they had a point differential of -214.. we are currently at -67.. In fact, the only stat I can find where there team from last year is better than ours from this year is running the football.. we are better than they were in pretty much every other measurable category..
yebat' Putin
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That's not easy for some Browns fans to accept, DC.
It runs counter to the "natural order of things".....
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Except for the big one, W's and L's 
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Back to Haden.
He has given up three late game-altering TD passes in the last three weeks.
He is so talented. Sometimes I wonder if he has intestinal fortitude to be truly great.
I think the issue for Haden lies substantially north of his intestines. Like... behind his eyes and between his ears. He has GOT to learn that 58 minutes of football will lose you games, when your opposition plays a full 60.
This is a mental/concentration thing, IMO.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Back to Haden.
He has given up three late game-altering TD passes in the last three weeks.
He is so talented. Sometimes I wonder if he has intestinal fortitude to be truly great.
I think the issue for Haden lies substantially north of his intestines. Like... behind his eyes and between his ears. He has GOT to learn that 58 minutes of football will lose you games, when your opposition plays a full 60.
This is a mental/concentration thing, IMO.
He's 24 years old! At that age I couldn't concentrate on anything for a full 60 minutes unless it involved booze, the Grateful Dead, or girls.
I have faith that this year is a major building block to an incredible run of years for Haden. Think about how far he's come since last season. Look back at the numbers the best WRs in the league have put up against him this year. If all he has to do this offseason is mentally clean up some sloppy play late in games... the sky is the limit.
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I think the issue for Haden lies substantially north of his intestines. Like... behind his eyes and between his ears. He has GOT to learn that 58 minutes of football will lose you games, when your opposition plays a full 60.
This is a mental/concentration thing, IMO.
Good point. Thought about that myself after the Pats game. We have a lot of players like that, especially on D, think about it: Ward, Taylor, Haden, Mingo, Kruger, Sheard, D.Bryant. Those 7, along with the more steady vets DQ and Rubin, are our cornerstones on D. All of those guys have flashed greatness over parts of a game and some had a complete game here and there, but they are inconsistent as hell from week to week and even from Qtr to Qtr, but more alarming than that: how many big plays have these guys made late in the 4th Qtr of a one run game? I can't remember many: Ward's INT vs Buffalo, but that was vs Tuel.
Any big time sack/fumble to seal a W? We have only ONE sack/fumble by a front 7 player this season and that was Sheard's vs Minny to save at least 3p before the half on our own 10yd line. That's all. We do not have one single turnover created to show for the 20mil we spent on Kruger, D.Bryant and Mingo and only THREE overall in 13 games by the entire front 7. That's incredibly depressing and simply not enough for an "attacking style"-D.
It HAS TO be mental, because those guys look like a dominant top 5 D in spurts: 1st half vs Lions, 2nd half vs Chiefs, first 3 Qtrs vs Pats etc. They've flashed greatness, but once the 4th Qtr starts and it's do or die time, they've done a total 180 time and again this season, not only Haden, in fact, from those listed above he's had probably the most complete games (early/mid in the season), it's frustrating. They probably start thinking too much or it is more prudent play calling from Horton? I don't know, but I agree that the issue is upstairs, not only with Haden, but with a lot of other players on this roster.
Who would have thought? Easy going Gordon seems to be the only one that has the coolness needed in crunch time. Guy has and is maturing FAST…at least ON the field. It's a fine line though, as we know, between coolness and carelessness.
We will find out next season, but at some point they need to make that jump in meaningful games and those won't come this season anymore.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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This is pure speculation on my part, but it looks, to me, that Haden is slowly gaining focus. He seems able to focus when he has a big challenge in front of him (Mike Wallace, AJ Green, Megatron (sorta)). When he has a "regular" #1 lined up in front of him is when he loses focus.
The next step for Haden is bringing it just the same every single Sunday.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Could be. Or, it could simply be that everybody gets beat sometime. Even Champ Bailey or Deion Sanders in their prime would get beaten.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I agree and have been lamenting the same things about Haden specifically ... but I can see how it applies to the entire D.
I don't know what it is with Haden ... I don't think it's intestinal fortitude as Vers suggests ... that would mean Haden becomes a nervous player in a tight games, and I don't see him as a nervous player.
But something is up. He NEVER makes a play when it matters most. He's always doing the opposite ... GIVING UP plays when it matters most. It's maddening.
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~ Legend
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But something is up. He NEVER makes a play when it matters most. He's always doing the opposite ... GIVING UP plays when it matters most. It's maddening.
Well, if you think about it, every play matters most. There's no touchdown that isn't game changing, so you're wrong. Every time you do not see him, he's making a play. Right now he's trying to make too many plays, he just needs to block out the fans and play defense.
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Just clicking...
Man tough crowd...he made a mistake - now he's stupid and a lot of other things.
How bout this and I don't know cause I'm not inside his head - just trying to do some educated guessing.
How bout he just wanted to win so so bad that he got a little desperate thinking the O wasn't going to win the game regardless of how great Gordon was playing....so he saw the move that was made all day and he decided to do "MORE" than what is asked of him. He decided he was going to end the game right here n now by jumping that route and making the INT - Game OVER!
Is it just a young kid wanting to win so bad he was trying to be a hero??? Or all those other things being said about him...lol 
Just saying.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joe's big plays always come when he's focused elsewhere. He's too physically gifted to just get beat. He watches the QB a little too much sometimes.
Against Pitt and Jax he got caught watching the QB and couldn't make up his ground. As our D gains players Joe will gain confidence in his teammates and focus on his responsibility. He only gets beat by guys who can change direction suddenly because he is so determined to help in every aspect all at once. He just needs to understand to worry about his own guy.
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Quote:
I don't know what it is with Haden ... I don't think it's intestinal fortitude as Vers suggests ... that would mean Haden becomes a nervous player in a tight games, and I don't see him as a nervous player.
That is not what I meant at all. My definition of Intestinal fortitude [and there are quite a few definitions] is: having a toughness of character; determined, endurance in regards to having a strong will or resolve. Some people call it guts.
I guess I could have said mentally tough and/or mentally disciplined instead of intestinal fortitude.
Not saying you have to agree w/that, but he seemed to have lost focus in the most important parts of games. Man, it's 3 weeks in a row where he gave up late TDs.
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Quote:
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Back to Haden.
He has given up three late game-altering TD passes in the last three weeks.
He is so talented. Sometimes I wonder if he has intestinal fortitude to be truly great.
I think the issue for Haden lies substantially north of his intestines. Like... behind his eyes and between his ears. He has GOT to learn that 58 minutes of football will lose you games, when your opposition plays a full 60.
This is a mental/concentration thing, IMO.
I believe the problem lies with the fans. Every single NFL cornerback gets burned at times. Every single CB in the Hall of fame got burned at times. He can get the best of his man 98 percent of the time but nobody talks about anything but the 2 percent of the time he gets burned. You just can't make some people happy no matter what you do in life 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Black and white. Just like everything else around here. You have to either be either 100% positive or 100% negative. Dare to go in-between and get mocked. 
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I think we are mostly on the same page with Haden. I just don't think I would characterize his inability to make plays when it matters most as a lack of intestinal fortitude. I kind of equate intestinal fortitude with courage, moxy, guts, not getting nervous at big moments. I don't think these things are his problem at all.
I think it's either focus ... or maybe he's just not as good as we think he is.
I hope it's the former.
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I think he has the talent. I really do. And he really has improved a lot this year.
I never thought he was playing as good as most people on the boards said he did. They were calling him a top 3 corner. That was wrong.
Chud and Horton challenged Joe before the year. He's really stepped it up and played very well. He is finally covering the other team's #1 WR, which to me, is huge! That really helps the entire defense, much like Joe T helps our offense because we play him on an island and give the RT all the help.
I was just commenting on him giving up those late TDs. Two were game winners and the third allowed the onside kick that led to the eventual game winner. That's a bit disturbing.
How about mental discipline rather than intestinal fortitude? Him jumping that route and then getting beat on the double move seemed like a lack of discipline to me.
And to all those who get so upset when you try and be objective...........I am NOT saying he stinks. I am NOT saying he isn't good. I am saying that giving up late TDs like that is not exactly the way to make the Pro Bowl.
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We are in 100% agreement.
I usually spend almost an entire game on Sunday thinking to myself "finally, the Joe Haden I thought the Browns were getting has arrived!".
Only to shake my head in disappointment in the last two minutes of the game.
I understand all corners get beat, but there is something alarming when it comes to Haden's timing when he gets beat. They always seem to be at pivotal times.
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j/c....
can somebody quantify how frequently this has happened? I don't seem to recall it being that frequent.
Can anyone put it in context of other premier players at the position? Also, in the instances this has happened, can someone give a detached and unbiased description of what happens on the plays (shouldn't be too tough, because I don't think there are that many instances).
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
I think he has the talent. I really do. And he really has improved a lot this year.
I never thought he was playing as good as most people on the boards said he did. They were calling him a top 3 corner. That was wrong.
Chud and Horton challenged Joe before the year. He's really stepped it up and played very well. He is finally covering the other team's #1 WR, which to me, is huge! That really helps the entire defense, much like Joe T helps our offense because we play him on an island and give the RT all the help.
I was just commenting on him giving up those late TDs. Two were game winners and the third allowed the onside kick that led to the eventual game winner. That's a bit disturbing.
How about mental discipline rather than intestinal fortitude? Him jumping that route and then getting beat on the double move seemed like a lack of discipline to me.
And to all those who get so upset when you try and be objective...........I am NOT saying he stinks. I am NOT saying he isn't good. I am saying that giving up late TDs like that is not exactly the way to make the Pro Bowl.
i'm in agreement with Eo on this.
we wasn't generating offense sometimes, and in the jags game, maybe he was trying to be a hero and end the game there.
not everything has to do with disipline. great players try to make plays. sometimes it doesn't always work.
if he read the QB correctly, and got a pick instead of the TD, what would you guys be saying now?
all i'm saying is, you guys want to harp on his mistakes, which is fine, but vers, you do rarely ever say anything good about haden. i guess holding aj green to 2 catches for 7 yards isn't good enough for you.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
all i'm saying is, you guys want to harp on his mistakes, which is fine, but vers, you do rarely ever say anything good about haden. i guess holding aj green to 2 catches for 7 yards isn't good enough for you.
Black and white.
Yeah Swish, I'm not objective. Never am. I post out of pure hate for Haden. That's my only reason.
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all i'm saying is, you guys want to harp on his mistakes, which is fine, but vers, you do rarely ever say anything good about haden. i guess holding aj green to 2 catches for 7 yards isn't good enough for you.
Black and white.
Yeah Swish, I'm not objective. Never am. I post out of pure hate for Haden. That's my only reason.
never said anything about hate bro.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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How about mental discipline rather than intestinal fortitude? Him jumping that route and then getting beat on the double move seemed like a lack of discipline to me.
Exactly the point I was trying to make.
I f my supposition is correct, this is a trait that CAN be fixed. If so, we have ourselves a TRUE top 5 DB.... because he's killing it in all other areas.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Maybe Vers doesn't know where the intestines are located. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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That was my guess too. Could be that when the play is for the game, Haden is pushing to make a spectacular play rather than a safe one. I think this makes more sense than saying he somehow loses his concentration at the moment he needs it most.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
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~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
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j/c....
can somebody quantify how frequently this has happened? I don't seem to recall it being that frequent.
Can anyone put it in context of other premier players at the position? Also, in the instances this has happened, can someone give a detached and unbiased description of what happens on the plays (shouldn't be too tough, because I don't think there are that many instances).
New England: Joe Haden goes over top in coverage to avoid a WR screen and Brady places a perfect low ball where only his receiver can get it at the back of the endzone.
Jags: Haden gets beat on a quick double route by Cecil Shorts. Cecil gives enough just to get Haden to bite and as soon as Joe started going in Cecil Shorts was already running by him.
He didn't give up a critical Steelers touchdown late in the game, but did get caught on another double route, where he actually makes the receiver fumble the ball, but the ball just ends up landing on his stomach.
I think what Mantis said was true. A big problem with looking for big plays is giving up big plays. It looks like Joe Haden has listened to the fans who say he does not make big plays and ever since his pick six he's been looking for more and more and them.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,387
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,387 |
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Remember a few years ago we were all having a discussion on here with difficulty naming a single play-maker on the team or even anyone the opposition had to game plan for?
I remember many years us arguing hard about our two best pro bowl opportunities.. our kicker and our kick returner..
This is an 11-5 team waiting for its quarterback...
We have been saying this for what 14 years now! lol
Congratulations to our 2016 NBA Champion CLEVELAND CAVALIERS!!! Greatest comeback in sports history... Hail to the King!
The great QB guru and the Moneyball group: 1-15
Record of Criminal Haslam owned Browns: 20-60 (0.250)
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Joe Haden on path towards Pro Bowl
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