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Swish, I'll just throw this out there for discussion since we are talking about importance of position... Josh McCown..
the guy is in his 12th season and is putting up unheard of numbers (at least for him).. he has never done anything close to this... The only other time he has had real good targets was early in his career when he was in Arizona with a very young Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin... So to what do we attribute his success? Is he just a more mature game player that finally got another chance? Is it Marshall and Jeffrey (thank goodness we didn't draft him, he's fat and undiscipline..  ), is it Marc Trestman?
Josh McCown is the reincarnation of Rich Gannon as far as I can tell. He has the skills to run a Trestman offense, and it does not hurt that he has Jeffery and Marshall.
Most marginal skilled QB's get tossed off of the rosters for a younger developmental guy. It is uncommon for a guy like McCown to be around when a Cutler goes down. But he has been impressive and consistent.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Wow.
i don't understand what you're saying wow about. he just beat Talib in hand to hand combat. beat is the wrong word...he slaughtered.
he has 1400 yards this season. thats best in the nfl. thats with three..THREE different QB's throwing the football. he bails the qB's out, he beats man to man, he beats double coverage, he can make reverses monster gains, he runs down the middle, and he makes clutch catches.
you said my bias against mingo is revolting? look at you and gordon.
the guy is elite, as much as it seems you don't wish for it to be true.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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It's no surprise you don't understand.
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Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Wow.
Back at ya.
i'm with Prp on this one. Gordon is having the best season out of any WR in the NFL this year. I actually think the historical context are a bit out of line (not enough TDs compared to some of the great years), but he is having a great year and is an elite guy this year.
there's no way he's not an elite guy this year.
#gmstrong
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It's no surprise you don't understand.
neither does the rest of the board.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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A few words on Josh Gordon http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/76907/a-few-words-on-josh-gordonNumbers simply do not do enough to measure the impact and achievement of Cleveland Browns wide receiver Josh Gordon the past month. Which is significant because the numbers for Gordon are off the charts. In the past four games, he has 36 receptions for 774 yards and five touchdowns. He also has averaged 21.5 yards per catch. This is a season’s work for some receivers. [+] EnlargeJosh Gordon Matthew J. Lee/The Boston Globe via Getty Images Josh Gordon has put up big numbers against even top corners like Aqib Talib. Gordon did it in four games. And he’s doing it in eye-popping ways. To put in perspective what he achieved, consider that Aqib Talib has the reputation as one of the league’s more physical corners. He beats people up, something New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick loves, and Talib uses his size and strength to run receivers off routes and disrupt the timing of plays. Denver’s Demaryius Thomas managed just four receptions and 41 yards against Talib. But Talib didn't have a chance against Gordon. The numbers from ESPN Stats & Information show that Gordon had the best overall receiving day against the Patriots this season. His 151 yards were the most given up by New England this season. His 21.6 yards-per-catch average was also the best by anyone who had at least three catches against the Patriots. (For perspective, consider that the guy ahead of Gordon with 24.5 yards is the Browns' Gary Barnidge, who had a 40-yard touchdown catch thanks to the fact, in part, that Talib was penalized for dragging Gordon to the ground after Gordon ran right through him.) Gordon’s 90 yards after the catch are also the most New England gave up. As was his 80-yard touchdown pass. Gordon ran 40 routes, was targeted nine times and caught seven for 151 yards and a touchdown. He didn't drop a single pass, accounted for four first downs (including a vital one on third-and-17 on the Browns' last touchdown drive). On the flip side, Talib did not have a single pass breakup. The point isn't to disparage Talib, whom the Browns would love to have. The point is that Gordon is playing so well that he makes one of the league’s most physical corners struggle. Gordon’s touchdown illustrates it. The Browns had noticed that the Patriots were stacking the box and bringing extra pressure, so they called a slant to go against that defense. New England helped by going cover zero, which means taking both safeties out of pass protection. Gordon got a clean break at the line -- something that isn't easy to do against Talib. He got a clean break on the slant, but when he caught Jason Campbell’s perfectly thrown ball, Talib was behind Gordon with the angle to tackle him. At that point it’s like Gordon is Chuck Yeager in "The Right Stuff," flicking the switch to Mach 1 -- he just jets past guys. He raced away from Talib when Talib had the angne. Against Jacksonville, he leaped for a pass, landed, turned and ran away from two defenders. Against New England, he went Mach 2 to run away from Talib. Since the day Gordon was drafted there has been discussion about his immense potential. Unrealized potential, though, gets coaches fired. Gordon has emerged this season in a way beyond even his biggest supporters envisioned. He is a player with immense talent and a rare combination of skills. If he stays on the right path and remains dedicated in the right ways there’s no telling the numbers he can produce. It’s not overstating it to say these past four games have shown the emergence of a superstar. And ... he’s 22.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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There are posts saying he already is elite. I would say he is playing elite, but he should probably prove it over the course of time before we deem him elite.
Not for nothing, but we're always talking about kids coming out of college that are "elite".
In two years, Gordon has shown more "eliteness" than any college receiver coming out next year, but you watch, someone will call some of them elite.
Gordon has 1400 yards and a boat load of catches in two fewer games than have been played and with three different QB's.
He IS Elite....
Me thinks that the word "Elite" gets thrown around too much.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Me thinks that the word "Elite" gets thrown around too much.
It just doesn't get defined... you can have an elite catch, you can have an elite game, you can have an elite season, you can have an elite career... Josh Gordon is having an elite season.... whether or not he can do it year after year is speculation.
Joe Flacco had an elite stretch of games in the playoffs last year...
Heck, I have the ability to walk out on any golf course, walk to the back tees, and birdie 3 or 4 holes in a row.. that would be an elite stretch of golf, that doesn't make me Tiger Woods.
The thing I like about Gordon is what has already been mentioned.. he's doing it with inconsistent QB play, he's not sneaking up on anybody any more and he's still doing it, he's doing it without many other weapons to worry about... I haven't seen anything in what he's doing that leads me to believe he can't put up very good numbers consistently... take DA in 2007 for example, it was exciting and it was fun to watch and at times, DA looked elite.... but there was always something in his game, the errant throws, the bonehead decisions, etc that just gave people an uneasy feeling about whether or not he could consistently play at a high level or even improve.. I don't have that feeling with Gordon.
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Josh Gordon is having an elite season.... whether or not he can do it year after year is speculation.
I really don't need to speak for anyone else, but this might be what Vers is trying to tell us....
what say, Vers... is this about right?
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Well we both presented the logic behind our opinions which is all I can ask for. I don't think we can say much else to convince the other...and I think I'm probably in the minority on this. Usually have been. Especially draft day. The only correction I will state is that you said its the UNIT with the CBs...and Not the WRs??? And then you go on to tell me how Gordon is on his own. Did I miss something there???
Anyways - thanks for the discussion. What some people don't understand. We all are frustrated, we all are PO'd that this season is essentially over. But some people take affront to having football discussions still and get mad at those who do. Especially at the other board. This board does seem to have their emotions more in check.
All I know is Gordon most definitely is Elite. Which will actually mean something once we get all the other pieces fixed. It will not carry the team - but can become a big big asset.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Josh Gordon is having an elite season.... whether or not he can do it year after year is speculation.
I really don't need to speak for anyone else, but this might be what Vers is trying to tell us....
what say, Vers... is this about right?
That's what we've ALL said.
By the way, somewhat lost in all the "we have the #1 WR in the NFL" talk is the fact that we also have the #2 TE in the NFL.
Get us a RB and we're golden.
If D's have to respect our run, almost any ol' #2 WR will be good enough.... and it just might make our Guards look better, too.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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e-lite
noun
1. a group of people considered (by others or themselves) to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth.
let's see...
Gordon leads the NFL in receiving yards (1,400), is tied for 13th in catches (71) and is tied for 11th in touchdowns (8) despite being suspended for the first two games of the season. He also has averaged 19.7 yards per catch.
In his past four games, Gordon has 774 yards receiving -- an NFL record. In his last three, he has 649. previously held by Megatron (he can beat that if he gets more than 152 yards.)
Gordon only needs 449 Yards to break Jerry Rice's Single Season Record for Receiving Yards with 3 games remaining.(150.yards per game) or 584 yards to beat Megatron's record
Gordon had the Franchise record for receiving yards with 14 catches for 237 he beat that franchise record with 10 catches for 261 yards
Josh Gordon set an NFL mark as the first ever player to have back to back 200+ yard receiving games
Gordon's passed Braylon Edwards for the franchise’s single-season receiving yards record which now stands at 1400 with three games to go.
his 2,205 receiving yards are the most by any player in their first 27 games as a Brown.
Gordon’s seven 100-yard games this season are a franchise record
He is the only Browns player to record four straight 100-yard receiving games.
Twelve of Gordon’s 13 career touchdowns have come from 20-plus yards.
out of the 71 catches 51 have been for first downs.
32 of the 71 have been for 20+ yards with 8 being for 40+ yards
he is leading the league with 127.3 yards per game.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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When you put it that way, I can see why folks are wishy-washy on him 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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We should all engage in a letter writing campaign to Gordon. Thanking him for the stellar year and wishing him a sober offseason. Letters of support reminding him that we all have his back. Knowing he can be strong and mature enough to stay out of trouble. In turn taking his career and our team to great heights.
If he's bombarded with letters of this type maybe he remembers them when his homie is trying to pass him a joint in April or May.
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The thing about Gordon in the Pats game that impressed me more than anything else was the long TD catch and run.
Talib was easily within a yard, and looked to be in position to make the tackle. He couldn't. Not only that, but within 2 or 3 steps from the time Gordon caught the ball, he pulled away by 3-4 yards. That burst Gordon has is just incredible. He never looks like he is running hard, but he just leaves people in the dust.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dawg Talker
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I have a question for the board....
It is draft time, the team picking at #1 calls us and offers us the pick for, our 2 firsts and a 2nd plus J. Gordon and a 2nd next year. Do you do it?
I would be hard pressed to do this, because JG is gonna be a super star, but on the other hand he does have history of a bad past. Is a QB that has not proven anything worth all of those picks plus your biggest weapon? Tough call.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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No. I might have considered that deal for Andrew Luck before declining, Teddy Bridgewater isn't Andrew Luck.
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Quote:
I have a question for the board....
It is draft time, the team picking at #1 calls us and offers us the pick for, our 2 firsts and a 2nd plus J. Gordon and a 2nd next year. Do you do it?
I would be hard pressed to do this, because JG is gonna be a super star, but on the other hand he does have history of a bad past. Is a QB that has not proven anything worth all of those picks plus your biggest weapon? Tough call.
I would laugh in their face. The #1 pick is barely worth 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders. Bridgewater's potential isn't anywhere close for 2 first round picks, let alone Josh Gordon.
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Heck no!
I wouldn't do it even for Gordon straight-up - unless they wanted to throw in half of their picks to go with it.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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All Pro
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No way. That's a kings ransom for a prince.
And the next head coach is ......
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Quote:
I have a question for the board....
It is draft time, the team picking at #1 calls us and offers us the pick for, our 2 firsts and a 2nd plus J. Gordon and a 2nd next year. Do you do it?
I would be hard pressed to do this, because JG is gonna be a super star, but on the other hand he does have history of a bad past. Is a QB that has not proven anything worth all of those picks plus your biggest weapon? Tough call.
That's too much to give up. I would pass if the decision were up to me, no hesitations/second thoughts.
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Heck no!
I wouldn't do it even for Gordon straight-up - unless they wanted to throw in half of their picks to go with it.
+1
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Wow, that's kinda surprising from all you guys. Reading the posts on here about a QB, some were wondering how we could trade up to the top spot for Bridgewater. So, it seems that there is no QB this year worth giving up the farm for. OK, now lets hope the FO agrees with ya.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
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Thought this belonged here: Turner's the man Norv Turner blasts Josh Gordon's August 'loafer' tag By Marc Sessler Four months ago, Josh Gordon faced a two-game suspension amid whispers that the young Cleveland Browns wide receiver was dogging it through training camp sessions. Four months later, offensive coordinator Norv Turner went out of his way to jab at those summertime narratives, primarily a Sports Illustrated writeup that tabbed Gordon as a "loafer" in practice. "All this August talk is just talk," Turner said last week, per The Plain Dealer. "... That's why I don't pay attention to all the people that come in here for one or two days of practice. They sat here in August and complained that the guy doesn't work hard, that he doesn't run routes, he doesn't finish. "And there were four minutes left in the (Jaguars) game. He had already caught nine balls for 150 yards. I didn't see him not run a route full speed, and he goes 95 yards and pulls away from two pretty fast guys." Judge for yourself: Tapping into Game Rewind, we saw more of the same on Gordon's 80-yard touchdown grab against New England on Sunday. The Browns wideout beats Aqib Talib to the ball and shakes off the Patriots cornerback with a stiff arm before gaining complete separation: Gordon's league-leading 1,400 yards have come during a season in which he didn't even take his first snap until Week 3. Cleveland's matchup Sunday with the Bears looms as a joy for passing-game enthusiasts, pitting Gordon -- that slacker! -- across from Chicago pass-catcher Alshon Jeffery, a guy knocked around by scouts before the 2012 draft for being a fatty with questionable field speed.
And the next head coach is ......
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Thought this belonged here:
Turner's the man
Norv Turner blasts Josh Gordon's August 'loafer' tag
By Marc Sessler
Four months ago, Josh Gordon faced a two-game suspension amid whispers that the young Cleveland Browns wide receiver was dogging it through training camp sessions.
Four months later, offensive coordinator Norv Turner went out of his way to jab at those summertime narratives, primarily a Sports Illustrated writeup that tabbed Gordon as a "loafer" in practice.
"All this August talk is just talk," Turner said last week, per The Plain Dealer. "... That's why I don't pay attention to all the people that come in here for one or two days of practice. They sat here in August and complained that the guy doesn't work hard, that he doesn't run routes, he doesn't finish.
"And there were four minutes left in the (Jaguars) game. He had already caught nine balls for 150 yards. I didn't see him not run a route full speed, and he goes 95 yards and pulls away from two pretty fast guys."
Judge for yourself:
Tapping into Game Rewind, we saw more of the same on Gordon's 80-yard touchdown grab against New England on Sunday. The Browns wideout beats Aqib Talib to the ball and shakes off the Patriots cornerback with a stiff arm before gaining complete separation:
Gordon's league-leading 1,400 yards have come during a season in which he didn't even take his first snap until Week 3.
Cleveland's matchup Sunday with the Bears looms as a joy for passing-game enthusiasts, pitting Gordon -- that slacker! -- across from Chicago pass-catcher Alshon Jeffery, a guy knocked around by scouts before the 2012 draft for being a fatty with questionable field speed.
i always knew gordon wasn't a slacker. people always confused his running for "not finishing routes" or not running full speed.
1400 yards says otherwise.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Usually people say "Don't look at the stats, look at how the guy plays on the field.", but in Gordon's case, it's the way he plays that is deceiving. He looks so perfectly natural that it never looks like he is trying hard. He runs so smoothly that it never looks like he is running hard, or giving it his all.
However, in his case, appearances deceive. He is going all out, but he is just so naturally talented that his all out looks like another player's "loafing".
I will never, ever forget how easily he pulled away from Talib, looking like he was just jogging, while leaving him in the dust. Gordon smoked him as badly as I have seen a WR beat a CB. Talib looked like he had a shot at first ....... until Gordon took 2 steps and created so much separation that it was almost unbelievable.
Anyway ...... as long as Gordon continues working hard, and stays clean, he could become one of the all time greatest receivers ..... and I would say that he even has the potential to be the GOAT. However, it's too early to put him in that category yet. Edwards had one great year with the Browns, then collapsed. It can happen. Hopefully it won't with Gordon though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I have a question for the board....
It is draft time, the team picking at #1 calls us and offers us the pick for, our 2 firsts and a 2nd plus J. Gordon and a 2nd next year. Do you do it?
I would be hard pressed to do this, because JG is gonna be a super star, but on the other hand he does have history of a bad past. Is a QB that has not proven anything worth all of those picks plus your biggest weapon? Tough call.
the question really should be... what would a franchise pay (if we didn't have Gordon) in draft picks for Megatron/Andre Johnson/Dez Bryant at 22 years old? That's probably the talent level you would have to negotiate.
My guess would be that a team would need to cough up 2-3 first round draft picks or two firsts and a few seconds or third round picks.
No one would give that much up and we wouldn't be able to live with ourselves for giving him up for so little.
*predicated on him keeping himself out of trouble.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Quote:
Usually people say "Don't look at the stats, look at how the guy plays on the field.", but in Gordon's case, it's the way he plays that is deceiving. He looks so perfectly natural that it never looks like he is trying hard. He runs so smoothly that it never looks like he is running hard, or giving it his all.
However, in his case, appearances deceive. He is going all out, but he is just so naturally talented that his all out looks like another player's "loafing".
I will never, ever forget how easily he pulled away from Talib, looking like he was just jogging, while leaving him in the dust. Gordon smoked him as badly as I have seen a WR beat a CB. Talib looked like he had a shot at first ....... until Gordon took 2 steps and created so much separation that it was almost unbelievable.
Anyway ...... as long as Gordon continues working hard, and stays clean, he could become one of the all time greatest receivers ..... and I would say that he even has the potential to be the GOAT. However, it's too early to put him in that category yet. Edwards had one great year with the Browns, then collapsed. It can happen. Hopefully it won't with Gordon though.
He has really long, exceptionally powerful legs. If you can get long legs turning over even somewhat fast, you can really lay down some speed. Because of the difference in stride length, his legs don't need to turn over as fast as a shorter guy to do the same speed, so if he can actually get them to turn over as fast, he will burn everyone around him.
That said, the longer your legs are, the harder it is to get them to turn over really fast. You have to have some monster fast-twitch powerhouse hamstrings to do it.
As a bonus, he has some massively long arms and gigantic hands to go with those legs (just watch that TD against Talib again where he one-hands the ball for the first half of the run). That entire play was power and physicality.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Doesn't Josh have like a 6'8 wingspan?
Something I want him to improve on next year is inside the redzone.
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Gordon's red zone is about 75 yards long
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Quote:
I have a question for the board....
It is draft time, the team picking at #1 calls us and offers us the pick for, our 2 firsts and a 2nd plus J. Gordon and a 2nd next year. Do you do it?
I would be hard pressed to do this, because JG is gonna be a super star, but on the other hand he does have history of a bad past. Is a QB that has not proven anything worth all of those picks plus your biggest weapon? Tough call.
Not for me. I take my chances that Gordon will stay clean- and never look back. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
1. we trade him for picks, it's a crapshoot that we'll find anyone near his ability.
2. if he gets suspended, we've lost his on-field production, but he'd still be on the roster for the future (whenever that opens up).
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Ok, guess I'm waiting for "We need to do anything we can to get our QB crowd. All of a sudden it seems QB is not everything or bust anymore. I know, QB is important, maybe the most important to the Team. If this is true, and many think it is, Would it not be a slam dunk to lose a WR and gain our franchise? Or is it all based on this QB class, not being as strong as some have lead on?
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Legend
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Legend
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Something I feel gets overlooked because of Josh's greatness and talent. Jordan Cameron has become a beast himself. He's well on his way to 1000 yards recieving.
How freaking lucky are we to have two breakout players play at a top 5 position level?
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Yeah the ideal spot to be in. Just hope the FO can get us the right QB and still keep our weapons. Draft one now in the first round or wait until next year? I guess that depends on how they feel about whats left over after Bridgewater, and even then is he really worth what it would cost to move up?
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Quote:
Doesn't Josh have like a 6'8 wingspan?
Something I want him to improve on next year is inside the redzone.
I think that is a really big part of why our O as a whole has been unsuccessful. Our redzone O is horrendous. Most of this blame goes to the run game. However as much as I love Gordon and Cameron they are built for the long ball and mid field. They both have the size to be great I'm just not sure they are the type.
Even if they are average in the redzone I'd like someone who's a bit more of a fighter and better in the middle of the field. Anyone else notice most of Camerons catches are outside catches? Maybe it's just me. If someone could find info for that I'd appreciate it. It sure would help the O to have another red zone threat whether it be a RB, TE or WR.
Again as dominant as those 2 are just because I don't think they are great redzone guys doesn't mean they aren't great. It's just not their game IMO. Perhaps a better QB is all they need. Trying to throw anywhere but outside in the redzone is as hard as it gets. You really have to be able to thread the needle and have touch.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Yes QB is so so important but still it doesn't mean you just make a silly move. Just way too much to give.
I remember teams - Dallas comes to mind giving up 2 first round picks for a WR (Halloway?) Not me but still there is value some teams would give for a Gordon.
Now in the other spectrum...straight up (They wouldn't do it - says a poster). I would do it in a heart beat.
One will get us a Championship...the other a crap load of Hi-lite reels...sort of what I was talking about earlier in the thread, not to be redundant
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Given the idea that both Hoyer and Campbell have been serviceable replacements for Weeden and that Gordon and Cameron truly are talents on this offense, I have no problem with taking best QB available at either first round selections then committing the rest of the draft to building the run game by bringing in interior linemen and a RB with some wheels. I think the lack of a run game has negatively affected the QB play and truly made us one dimensional and predictable.
I also think that whichever QB we select in next year's draft, there is no rush in getting them on the field next year, despite the Cleveland media drooling over our "QB of the future." I don't want a Geno Smith like issue, where the guy is lost in the sauce trying to adjust to the NFL while learning a new complicated offense that he is expected to lead. I never thought that rushing a rookie into the starting gig was conducive to winning football games immediately.
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