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j/c:
A few points:
--I agree w/tab that you could say that people are judging every qb by how he played in college. I mean.........what else is there?
--I think that Toad has changed his opinion big-time in regards to Manziel. He's probably not the guy you want to quote.
--I will bet you as much as you wanna bet that Johnny Football won't be a 3rd round pick.
--Manziel actually is thicker than Wilson. His game is very similar. Another guy...and some of you may cringe---that he compares to, is Jeff Garcia. The scrambling ability, the gritty play, the playmaking ability. The size. Garcia was a Pro Bowler.
--This off-season will be a failure if we don't land one of the top 3 qbs. And I prefer Teddy and Maziel above Bortles. I don't want another stiff like Carr coming in here.
--I think most of the people who are bad-mouthing Manziel haven't really watched him play much.
--Manziel is being killed by some for his immaturity. I think he is a leader on the football field. His teammates adored him. It was evident to anyone who watched his games. I would rather have his problems than some guy who has been busted for drugs several times or a guy who raped a girl. But, that's just me.
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Legend
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NRTU
It's really impressive how Lebron James and Johnny Manziel never discussed his agency before Manziel graduated.
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That would be so awful if they did.  Can you imagine a person wanting to secure their future? It's okay to rape someone. It's okay to cheat on academic tests. It's okay to steal laptops. But, don't you dare take any money away from the NCAA. 
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1st String
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Quote:
I played, it was fun... No Manziel... he was gone by the time I picked, and I wouldn't have picked him anyway... Look who was there:
My picks including trade downs (rounds 5-7 are flyers):
Round 4 Pick 8 (BUF): Bryan Stork, C, Florida State (A)
so...I guess you are counting on Mack being allowed to slip away?
Never have hope. You won’t be disappointed.
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Rookie
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Hey guys was curious as to whether someone has a link for this mock draft game. Have been reading as how everyone has played it and it sounds like a lot of fun. If someone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated. 
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Personally I view Manziel as a guy who will be fun to watch and excite people because he can make crazy plays now and then, but he'll never be as good as Wilson, Luck, or Cam. Probably not Kaepernick either. Heck I'd take Foles over the guy too longterm. JF might be able to take a team to the playoffs as long as he is on a team with a lot of talent. He'll never be an elite qb or even in the tier right below elite.
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I don't see how this kid could play in the pros and be as good as he is in college.He doesn't have a big arm,and is very undersized to handle the hits he will take.He also is very immature about how he conducts himself,and could easily be a headline for all the wrong reasons.I think he is one of the most entertaining QBs I have ever watched,and love to see what crazy play he'll do next,but alot of those plays just won't fly at this level.He could be either a good pick,or a horrible bust.Seems like any QB we get though,turns out to be garbage in the end.They better keep Hoyer warming up in that bullpen just in case.
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Quote:
j/c:
A few points:
--I agree w/tab that you could say that people are judging every qb by how he played in college. I mean.........what else is there?
--I think that Toad has changed his opinion big-time in regards to Manziel. He's probably not the guy you want to quote.
Yes, I know that. But, the thread has a number of guys backing up the the 3rd round prediction. Just read it. That is what I'm responding to. Hey, if they still do the search archive thing, and you look back, you will find me pimping Manziel. Just because I'm asking you guys to break down the concerns doesn't mean I don't consider him an extrordinary baller.
--I will bet you as much as you wanna bet that Johnny Football won't be a 3rd round pick.
My posts suggest that I was implying that is ridiculous. My previous posts have suggested he won't be there at #4 -- let alone #104
--Manziel actually is thicker than Wilson. His game is very similar. Another guy...and some of you may cringe---that he compares to, is Jeff Garcia. The scrambling ability, the gritty play, the playmaking ability. The size. Garcia was a Pro Bowler.
--This off-season will be a failure if we don't land one of the top 3 qbs. And I prefer Teddy and Maziel above Bortles. I don't want another stiff like Carr coming in here.
We can disagree on this one. If we don't get Bridgewater, and I would be shocked if we did, I would hope that Clowney falls to us and we trade the pick.
--I think most of the people who are bad-mouthing Manziel haven't really watched him play much.
Many people who watched this years bowl game were blown away by him. That was nothing, see if you can find the bowl game he played in a year ago. I think he was more amazing in that one.
--Manziel is being killed by some for his immaturity. I think he is a leader on the football field.
I think the emotional thing he showed in the recent bowl game is dangerous and would work maybe one game in the NFL before guys will tell him to shut up
His teammates adored him.
It was evident to anyone who watched his games. I would rather have his problems than some guy who has been busted for drugs several times or a guy who raped a girl. But, that's just me.
My fear is that we don't really know what his problems may be. How he will react to being drafted by the Browns, hanging with his homes "The King" all the expectations, all the media, all the ....
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Quote:
But, the thread has a number of guys backing up the the 3rd round prediction. Just read it.
This is my third time elaborating -
I think he will go in the first round. It's almost certain.
However, I would not take him before the third round.
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Manziel will be a top 10 pick... probably top 5 pick.
The rookie pay scale really changed draft dynamics. You can definately make a more risky top 10 draft selection given it won't mess up your cap for the next 5 years. I think Manziel would have been a 2nd/3rd round pick in the old system but with the rookie pay scale in effect some team will definitly take the high risk/high reward chance of getting Manziel in their uniform. Could ver well be our Browns.
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I'll try to spin the Johnny thing by using a Weeden analogy.
In my opinion, the reason why Brandon Weeden isn't a real NFL Quarterback is because he simply doesn't want it bad enough to do what it takes. He's lazy, comfortable, easy going, content, relaxed, .... whatever.
Was he willing to show up at 6am and watch film? Was he willing to work hours a day on his footwork? Was he willing to turn his skill set deficiences into strengths by hard work? NO! No he wasn't. He has never been willing to do what it took in order for him to be successful on the football field. Its obvious. If he had the passion and drive that Manning, Brady, Wilson, etc. have, he would be an entirely different guy and we woud be an entirely different team..
If Manziel comes to us, and he tries to outwork guys like Wilson, within a couple years he will be a star. His success will ride entirely on making a decision to do WHATEVER it takes. If he is driven to become a legend, he probably will. Tom Brady did it. Manning did it. Wilson may be in the process of doing it.
If Johnny Football wants to live the rockstar life...
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I wonder what happens to his draft standing if he gets measured at 5'10-1/2" or 5'11", and weighs around, or less than 190. I heard a media guy (sorry, didn't catch the name) on the radio today who stood next to him in a room and estimated those to be his measurables.
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Not to anyone else specifically. Sorry I thought you were speaking to all that liked Manziel...oh wait -
"the pro Manziel folks are looking"
On that don't get upset just say my bad was I wrong???
His mental makeup...up my goodness the kid was 19 and made some mistakes - please can you list these skeletons cause maybe I'm missing something. I saw a kid win the Heisman when nobody else ever did (freshman) and went on a media magical tour - he's 19/20 I'm sure he did some stupid stuff...I didn't see him going to prison or that stuff so I ignored them and was impressed how he conducted himself AFTER FOOTBALL STARTED...and he will get more mature as the years come along. Skeletons...come on...
yeah so if you hate Manziel that becomes THE BIG NONO about him...so what? Its a football discussion that I've seen people say words but have not put up the facts...who knows maybe I can be convinced if these infractions are so grievous. But all I here is words like skeletons...give me the facts please...thanks
And yes REALLY you act like you did NOTHING...you told me point blank my knowledge and opinion on QB is pretty much meaningless cause I think he's going to do the exact exploits he did in college. Ignoring the fact that I personally am looking at his talents and technique. Again don't get mad...just apologize  lol 
I question why Manizel's mental make-up is ignored by his supporters.
Maybe if you actually list those MENTAL MAKE-UP as facts I won't ignore them. I ignore you and other posters who state that over n over again without submitting an IOTA of proof that there is a problem with the kids Mental Make-up. I ignore not from you but pretty much anyone who states things in that matter n wish me to take it as a FACT. I'm sure he acted like a teenager guess what that's pretty much locks in IMMATURE - does he steal? does he do drugs? does he hang out with gangsters? Acting immature is nothing - if he was 26 acting immature...maybe a problem.
Again - carrying the ball away from his body...I've seen that actually I have been amazed at some of the hits he has taken and he didn't fumble. Again for a kid his size he has big hands.
Its ok to have a difference of opinion...but you clearly stated the PRO MANZIEL GUYS....how can I not take that personal if I am just that Pro Manziel.
btw...I was never a Weeden Pimp, BQ pimp
Guys I have liked is Rodgers took his side over Smith in the debates. Bradford, Luck (who didn't like him), big time RG3 well before just about anyone. Bridgewater in 2012 on realizing he wasn't eligible for the 2013 draft.
As for QBs maybe one of my biggest mistakes was down talking Big Ben...that was a big time mistake.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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ahhh come on.
Aldon smith had alcohol problems too. thats not stopping him from destroying QB's in the playoffs as we speak.
i think some posters are nick picking a bit too much. how old is he again? nobody here can answer with a straight face what they would do if they were in the same situation, seeing as we never will be, short of winning the lotto.
the guy is a competitor. my only beef with manziel is that crap he does in the pocket. i guess that can be taught, though. that running around for no reason in the backfield will get him slaughtered in the NFL, but i guess if he had our line, he might not have to do it that much in the first place.
but the guy is a fierce competitor, and i'll take that all day, everyday.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Legend
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Quote:
Manziel will be a top 10 pick... probably top 5 pick.
The rookie pay scale really changed draft dynamics. You can definately make a more risky top 10 draft selection given it won't mess up your cap for the next 5 years. I think Manziel would have been a 2nd/3rd round pick in the old system but with the rookie pay scale in effect some team will definitly take the high risk/high reward chance of getting Manziel in their uniform. Could ver well be our Browns.
I find it very odd that I have to explain myself so many times.
MANZIEL WILL GO IN THE FIRST ROUND. HE WILL LIKELY GO TOP 5. WHEN I SAY THAT I WOULDN'T TAKE HIM BEFORE THE THIRD, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT I BELIEVE HE WILL GO IN THE THIRD ROUND.
I think whoever takes him the first will be getting a mid-round project QB. I'm not saying the he can't or won't succeed in the NFL, but the odds are against him, and I hope we're not to the team to roll the dice on such a long shot.
If you take Manziel, you're hoping for a big leap forward which will be facilitated by intelligence. And I'm not looking to push my chips on the intelligence of a guy who can't help himself from taunting Rice and gets caught taking money in a system designed to let him earn money without getting caught.
I don't care about the kid partying or being a jackass. I just care about his brains and work ethic, and I haven't seen evidence to make me feel comfortable there.
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I will admit I didn't read every word there but I tried to stop and read the BAD THINGS he did...I don't see anything remotely making him a risk. 20 and partying hard at clubs w/pictures not a warning sign just pretty normal.
Do you play golf...took me a long time to get to NEVER throw my clubs (well not that long but was in my late 20's as I almost hit somebody) its a very easy transgression.
My son who is considered a goody goody (way more good than I...lol ) he threw and broke his new club - around the same age as Manziel. It happens
He has led a different life than us...getting his new car keyed on campus was probably a bummer.
But I see a kid being a kid especially with a silver spoon in his mouth and greatness at a revered position that combo is very very rare.
No jail...no theft. No major character flaws - immature people at an immature age is a normal occurance - they actually become Mature! well most do.
If you see him as NOT A GREAT PROSPECT OK...but to think remotely he's a great PROSPECT and we got to over look him because of his Mental character...sorry got to be a lot more grievous than what I just read.
JMHO... Not a guy to move up to - he should be there at #4...I'm 99% sure he will not be there at 26.
If he's our guy we will go get him!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Woke up this morning and said to myself maybe I should see an eye doctor.
Gil Brandt has Manziel as the top prospect. Kiper has him going number one. Daniel Jeremiah has the Browns taking Manziel over Bridgewater.
A month ago this was not the case. What happened? How is it that Manziel has shot up all these draft boards?
What has Bridgewater done to slid behind Manziel? Let's see Louisville played Miami. Bridgewater was 35/45 threw for 447 yds, 3 TD's. Thats pretty good. Doesn't seem like he played poorly to slid down the boards.
Now I read there is concern about Bridgewater's slight frame. Manziel is not exactly Big Ben so what is with that?
Kiper says if over the next 3 or 4 months Manziel can answer all the questions about character concerns. If he can convince all the personnel guys that he will work hard and be the first to practice and the last to leave he could go number one.
I saw Manziel play about 4 games this year. I have said that he has done some wild and crazy things that were fun to watch. He has some unique skills. Great pocket awareness and escapability. He is accurate for the most part. He does not possess a cannon arm but he can make most of the throws.
He ran quite often to make plays.
What else?
He ran way to often and does not protect the ball. He will not get away with that at the next level.
In college the plays he made will not come so easy in the NFL. Coverages broke down when he scrambled and receivers were wide open. He made the plays dropping the ball in there. He did what he had to do. It will not be the same in the NFL. He will not be able to run as much or he will perish. The players are bigger, and way faster. The receivers will not be so wide open. He will have to make plays from the pocket. He will have to anticipate open and make throws to tight windows of opportunity. He will have to make pre-snap reads. Be able to look DB's off. Recognize coverages post snap and throw to secondary receivers from the pocket. These required skills in the NFL were not required at Texas A&M. Manziel didn't need them. He played his way.
He will need to be with a team that will work with "his skills" and refine his game.
The character questions are hard to verify and difficult to evaluate.
How will he handle the money, the expectations, adversity? Will he be coachable? Will he commit himself to being the best player he can be and will he have the discipline and work ethic required for success?
Some guys like Manning, Brees, Wilson, Brady and others those types of questions never came up? There were no off field concerns.
No matter how others see Manziel I see to many questions for him to be a top ten pick. I see him as a late first or early second guy. Even then I would have to be completely convinced by him that he could lead my team.
Bridgewater in my eyes is better prepared to transition to the NFL and a much safer pick.
If Manziel ends up with the Browns I will pray that all my concerns will be put to rest with wins and I will cheer for him. If he doesn't win and he plays rotten he can go out with the bathwater along with Banner and Lombardi.
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Two words: page views.
JM's the most polarizing, hot-button guy in this draft and they're going to milk him for every dime it's worth. They'll all fall back in line to a more source-fed mock a week or two before the draft.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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Bridgewater will need a receiver like Brandin Cooks who can get separation at the next level. He will know when to get him the ball and won't throw it into a covered zone. He's not going to throw people open against NFL man coverage though. That's my take on him based on what I've seen him do in college.
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i don't get that though. if Bridgewater is smart enough to know where/when to throw the ball, then how could he not be taught to throw to a spot rather than a WR (which is how you throw a guy open in the NFL).
#gmstrong
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Because I don't see the precision on his throws. I detailed as an example all of his throws vs. Miami in another thread. I mentioned it a couple times earlier in the year as well when I watched him. He knows where to throw it, it just doesn't always get to the optimal spot.
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Sorry I do not know what "page views" are?
If they are a link to another web page, all that I wrote regarding Kiper, Brandt, etc. are on espn or nfl.com
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ok, fair enough.
and, it's an interesting argument to see if it's harder to fix his footwork (which I believe is his biggest accuracy issue) versus teaching a QB how to know where to throw it.
I think his arm strength is good enough and his IQ is very good along with good mobility. I do agree his accuracy is spotty at times (especially on the move unlike Johnny).
#gmstrong
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Quote:
I think his arm strength is good enough and his IQ is very good along with good mobility. I do agree his accuracy is spotty at times
I agree with all of these
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Quote:
Sorry I do not know what "page views" are?
Page views are the number of people who view a given website - or in this case article - both in terms of unique visitors (first-timers) and returning readers. They are highly valued metrics in determining how much a website (ESPN) can charge for advertising on said pages base on how many eye balls are viewing them. There's a ton of money revolving on both unique and returning hits.
So in the instances of mock drafts, if Kiper sets his initial mock the same as he feels it will fall in May, it's possible he be updating that info for the next 5 months, and people have no reason to go back and read old content. Thus his returning page views decrease and advertising dollars go down, among other things.
In the case of Manziel, He's the guy most non-draftnik people are going to be attracted to first, mainly because he's off in the news partying and what not. People are going to know his name more then Carlos Hyde for instance. So his name in the headline as 'the top overall pick' is much more interesting to the casual fan. Click, page view.
Additionally, as made perfectly clear by perusing just this board, everybody has an opinion on Johnny. The game of drawing visitors doesn't care if people are happy or pissed, they just care that they show up. More visitors = more advertising dollars. At the end of the day, they will all fall in line into something they actually think will happen so they can say 'see we were right', but in the meantime they kept users coming back by offering unique, frequently updating content.
Hope this helps a little.
Last edited by Flap; 01/16/14 12:36 PM.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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What Happened? I'm thinking Wilson of the Seahawks continued to happen and by most standards JM is better at the skills moving Wilson forward into the playoffs.
I think after further study he is showing up to be a pretty accurate QB on the run or in the pocket from 10-over 20 yd routes.
Teddy Bridgewater is one of the most accurate in the 5-15 range and is probably the perfect QB for a WCO type of offense. Pistol, Vertical has JM as the more productive QB. But I don't see most NFL GMs making JM as their #1 primarily due to the natural bias towards shorter QBs - Unless JM starts a new trend.
Garcia had to go to Canadian Football League.
Wilson wait till the 3rd round
Rodgers not quite as short dropped to the 22 slot.
Brees dropped to the 2nd round.
Overall #1 will go to Teddy and this is why...he'll train hard for that combine stuff and do well there and answer all the right questions and be super accurate which is why he is the overall #1 pick and should remain there.
Now this is a big big variable that scares me as a pimp of JM. Houston Texans would have a MARKETING DREAM by getting Johnny "TEXAS" Football so maybe all these #1 predictions coming out (just remember Kiper has like 4 more mocks to go and changes all the time) is because of the TEXAN/JM marketing dream possibilities involved. ???
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Hall of Famer
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Just my .02 to add....Remember Texas has disapointed thier fans a couple times now, One was when they took Williams over Reggie Bush, and when they didnt pull the trigger on Vince Young from Texas,
This is the right time to excite thier fans with Johnny Texas Manziel and with a New hot named coach....I 'll be very surprised if they dont take Johnny football
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Just my .02 to add....Remember Texas has disapointed thier fans a couple times now, One was when they took Williams over Reggie Bush, and when they didnt pull the trigger on Vince Young from Texas,
This is the right time to excite thier fans with Johnny Texas Manziel and with a New hot named coach....I 'll be very surprised if they dont take Johnny football
Wait you're citing two good logical picks as the reason to NOT make one this time?
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Hall of Famer
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Wait you're citing two good logical picks as the reason to NOT make one this time?
I'm a Browns fan...what do you expect...and no I'm not Lombardi stalking the internet sight looking for tip on who to draft... 
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Legend
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Quote:
Just my .02 to add....Remember Texas has disapointed thier fans a couple times now, One was when they took Williams over Reggie Bush, and when they didnt pull the trigger on Vince Young from Texas,
This is the right time to excite thier fans with Johnny Texas Manziel and with a New hot named coach....I 'll be very surprised if they dont take Johnny football
....And they won...?
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Dawg Talker
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Just a thought. With players like Mathews, Ogbuehi and Evans why was Manziel running so much?
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All Pro
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Just a thought. With players like Mathews, Ogbuehi and Evans why was Manziel running so much?
...because it worked.
Wise words spoken by sages
From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Personally, I think Ogbuehi is overrated.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 Likes: 26
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 Likes: 26 |
Quote:
Quote:
Just a thought. With players like Mathews, Ogbuehi and Evans why was Manziel running so much?
...because it worked.
The amount that he ran is very over stated.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,266 Likes: 2
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,266 Likes: 2 |
Back in the olden days the Browns drafted a RB named Charles White. He looked great at USC running behind Munoz and Mathews. White was a bust as a pro.
That stroll down memory lane made me wonder if perhaps Mathews and Ogbuehi were making Manziel look better than he is.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906 |
Wow..........talk about a stretch. You are comparing Maziel to Charles White because they both played w/two good players?
Alrighty then.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,209 Likes: 211
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,209 Likes: 211 |
Also, didn't White have problems with the white powder?
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906 |
Yes, I remember the time they found him in a pile of garbage on the street. It was a sad story.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 The Manziel tipping point
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