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Just an interesting read IMO If this is too close to the IMUS thread and you want to delete it I understand. http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/04/10/2007-04-10_a_dangerous_detour.htmlCycles of outrage and apology distract blacks from confronting many big, chronic problems BY JOHN McWHORTER Tuesday, April 10th 2007, 8:34 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Print Email Suggest a Story You can count on about one a month. Last August it was Sen. George Allen's (R-Va.) "macaca" comment that led to the usual editorials about the "persistence of racism in America" and the duty of good-thinking people to police the country for "offensive language." Allen apologized. We were barely past that episode when Michael Richards tossed off the N-word in a meltdown during a standup routine when some black men heckled him. More policing, more talk shows exploring the issue. Richards apologized, with the Rev. Jesse Jackson in tow. Upon which Sen. Joseph Biden (D-Del.) was dragged through the mud for calling Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) "articulate and bright and clean." Never mind that if you look at the actual transcript, he meant something different from what was reported. This was still water-cooler talk for a couple of weeks, complete with the Op-Eds and the requisite apology. Not long ago, a radio host in Texas, making fun of Biden, called Obama a "clean darky." The local NAACP was up in arms. Writing about this kind of thing a little while ago, I predicted that there would be a new episode the following week. I was off by seven days. Now it's Don Imus on the coals for saying that the women on Rutgers' basketball team are "nappy-headed ho's." We know the drill. Reflective sorts have been tsk-tsking over Imus. Condemning him. Imus, just suspended, will be trotted out as one more example that on racism in America we've come a long way, but we have a ... (need I even finish?). And what will the point be? What, really, is the goal of these monthly performances over something someone says in passing and usually in jest? If the goal is to stop people from ever uttering anything that can be construed as belittling to people of color, it doesn't appear to be working. We have already succeeded in making the outright abusive wielding of racial slurs unacceptable in American society. Nicholas (Fat Nick) Minucci, the Howard Beach, Queens, twentysomething who assaulted a black man with a bat while shouting the N-word, deserved to go to prison. However, the quest for an America where no one ever makes passing observations that are less than respectful of minority groups is futile. And why are so many of us so obsessed with chasing that rainbow anyway? The truth is that black people who go to pieces whenever anyone says a little something are revealing that they are not too sure about themselves. Imus hosts a radio show and a lot of people listen to it. During a few seconds last week he said something tacky. The show went on, as did life. Black people continued to constitute most new AIDS cases, black men continued to come out of prison unsupervised. And we're supposed to be most interested in Imus saying "nappy-headed ho's"? What creates that hypersensitivity is a poor racial self-image. Where, after all, did Imus pick up the very terminology he used? Rap music and the language young black people use themselves on the street to refer to one another. What Imus said is lowdown indeed, but so is the way blacks refer to each other. And life goes on. Street theater is not strength. It saps energy better put to other uses. The focus we'll be dedicating to the next gaffe sometime in (this time I'll give myself a little more wiggle room) May will mean that much less commitment to addressing black people's real problems. McWhorter, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is author of the book "Winning the Race."
Eat it Phil...
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Quote:
The truth is that black people who go to pieces whenever anyone says a little something are revealing that they are not too sure about themselves.
Imus hosts a radio show and a lot of people listen to it. During a few seconds last week he said something tacky. The show went on, as did life. Black people continued to constitute most new AIDS cases, black men continued to come out of prison unsupervised. And we're supposed to be most interested in Imus saying "nappy-headed ho's"?
And the "Hit the nail on the head award " goes to .....
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Quote:
The truth is that black people who go to pieces whenever anyone says a little something are revealing that they are not too sure about themselves.
Imus hosts a radio show and a lot of people listen to it. During a few seconds last week he said something tacky. The show went on, as did life. Black people continued to constitute most new AIDS cases, black men continued to come out of prison unsupervised. And we're supposed to be most interested in Imus saying "nappy-headed ho's"?
Enough said.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.) ![[Linked Image from i87.photobucket.com]](http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/brownsfan4173/NFL-Football.jpg)
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Neal Boortz take on it: THE DON IMUS AFFAIR First of all ... I don't listen to the show. I've tried. I just don't get it. Apparently Imus called the Rutgers woman's basketball team a bunch of "nappy headed hos." Not good. Stupid even. But correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Stevie Wonder have some song in which he referred to himself as a "nappy headed little boy"? And is it not true that you can hear black women referred to as "hos" on virtually any urban hip hop station on any given day? Stevie Wonder is black, as are the rappers who denigrate black women with abandon. They're allowed. The real issue here is that the words were spoken by someone-not-black. Was it a stupid thing to say? Absolutely. Do virtually all talk show host say something stupid once in a while? You bet. We don't have the advantages that a columnist might have. We don't have an editor to ask "are you sure you really want to say that?" We can't put our extemporaneous comments down on paper and then kick back with a gin martini to read them to see how they'll play out on the air. If we want to have a modicum of entertainment value to our shows we're going to have to tiptoe through a rhetorical pasture every day. Every once in a while we stray off the path and step in something. I've done it. Every host I know has done it. This whole Imus thing, though, quickly got out of hand. Two of the nation's preeminent race warlords have become involved. Time to stir the pot of black victimization a bit. Imus has apologized. He asked forgiveness. These two so-called "preachers" aren't really down with that forgiveness thing. The idea that Imus should be brought before those two race warlords, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson is disgusting. These two professional race baiters do nothing but scan the news day after day looking for some comment or action taken by someone-not-black that they can feign outrage over and get a little face time on the news. The idea that Al Sharpton is even considered to be a serious spokesman on issues such as this is an absurdity of a previously unimaginable magnitude. Michael Harrison, the Editor of Talker's Magazine, made what I think was a brilliant observation, that being that Imus would survive this so long as he cut back on the apologies. The real mistake for Imus was making an appearance on Sharpton's show. [video] He should have just gone on the show, apologized, said that he crossed the line, and be done with it. Let Jesse and Al snort and paw the ground all they want ... an apology would have been sufficient. I suspect, though, that his pilgrimage to the Shrine of Sharpton this wasn't Imus' idea. My guess is that either the MSNBC crowd or CBS that told Imus that he must go kneel before the Sharpton altar. Al Sharpton is a liar and a bigot. He falsely accused Steven Pagones of rape and mutilation in the Tawana Brawley matter. He's never apologized. He incited murder at Freddie's Fashion Mart in Harlem while loudly denouncing white interlopers. No apology. Do you remember the Crown Heights Riot in New York? That's where Al Sharpton whipped a crowd into a four-day riot on rumors that a Jewish ambulance had failed to treat a young black at the scene of a disturbance after a car accident. There was Sharpton referring to "diamond merchants" shedding the "blood of innocent babies." Diamond merchants? Code word for Jews. Apology? None. And this is the man that that fool John Kerry calls the moral compass of the Democrat Party? And now what? Imus goes to Sharpton to apologize? And excuse me, but didn't I hear the words "Hymie Town" from Jesse Jackson? Sharpton is really enjoying this. He has the limelight back from Barack Obama for a time. You'll soon see him posing for the cameras with the Rutgers team. He'll also be demanding meetings with CBS and MSNBC. Ride the wave. The Southern Christian Leadership Conference is getting into the act also. Why let Sharpton and Jackson get all of the attention here? The SCLC wants a hearing before the FCC. Now the word is out that Imus will be suspended for two weeks. Still the media pushes the story. This morning I heard news anchors asking "Is two weeks enough?" There's blood in the water. The sharks are circling. A great white is wounded, and its time to move in for the kill. Sharpton has a chance to pull down a radio icon. It's a chance he doesn't want to miss. Soledad O'Brien called his remarks "racist." Racism is the belief in the inherent genetic superiority of one race over another. There was nothing racist -- not by definition -- in Imus' remarks. Par for the course, though. I doubt O'Brien has ever bothered to look into the history of the word "racist." The end result of all this? Sharpton and Jackson get their face time. Others, like the SCLC, will try to glom on. Imus relaxes for two weeks, and then probably comes back to a larger radio audience. He'll be bowed, though, by this episode. The edge will be gone. Time will tell. Link
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Good read Jules. I live right next to Wappinger's Falls where the whole Tawana incident occured. Raising that to the level of a national outcry has cost several decent men their entire future. How Sharpton is given any continued credibility, I have no idea. He's been investigated for fraud, conspiracy, money laundering and numerous other crimes and it rolls off his back. I can't even begin to describe my confusion, for lack of a better word, as to why people listen to him. He has a follwing here that would probably literally walk off a cliff if he said it was for "the cause".
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I can't believe that most Black people even care what Don Imus says. Eddie Murphy said in one of his routines that there is nothing uglier than an 80 year old White woman. Dave Chapelle has said some stuff that might upset whites if we were that thinskined.
I thought we fought a war with England so we could say what we want.Actually all I hear whining about it are the media and Al/ Jesse and The National Org of women and DognDC of course. But for the most part it sounds like a bunch of guilty White people.
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Racism makes me sick. Go ahead somebody tell me there's no such thing.
...always have been, always will be...
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A lot of stuff makes me sick.
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I still don't get how "nappy-headed ho" is a RACIST comment??  I think Al Sharpton is the racist for assuming that the only people who can be nappy-headed and hos are black. 
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Riiiiight....just fall off the turnip truck?
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Please explain to me then.  I've heard woman from all races referred to as "hos" ... I call my own two year old's hair "nappy". Did I miss some public edict that decried that only black people could be refered to as both nappy and hos??? I'd say the comment was definatly sexist ... but I don't get how it qualifies as racist, unless Imus somehow singled out just the black players on the team before making the comment.
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I heard today he also called them spear-somethings....not all of it has been aired apparently.  I haven't heard any proof of that though. I think it was racially motivated however, who cares what an ignorant person has to say?
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It's all about stereotypes and tho you may name exceptions to the rule, that is a very well-KNOWN stereotype. (I'm referring to the term nappy-headed)
As for saying they're hos, that's just a stupid insult. Whether he said hos or whores, he was referring to young girls who most likely worked hard to get where they were. It's just nasty...IMO
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Spear-chuckers? I've heard of that before ... if he actually DID say that, then yes I'd say that's definatly racist. 
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I did edit that I didn't hear proof of that, but another radio talk show host said he did.
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but another radio talk show host said he did.
Well if we can find it on the internet as well, then it's definatly true.  
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This guy was defending him until he heard the whole thing, and then he said he could no longer defend him so, who knows....
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j/c
Is Sharpton a racist?
I mean,where were the marches,protests and outcry for record labels to fire Hip Hop recording artists for their use of the word "ho's" and the degrading of black women?
This has been going on for years in the Hip Hop genre that also reaches millions. And many of those millions are under age poeople who music helps influence them.
Where is Al on that one? Wonder why when an old white guy makes such a comment,they call for his job and try to ruin his career? Yet when a black Hip Hop artist does the same thing over and over again Al doesn't call for the record labels to fire these black "artists"? (and I use the term loosly)
Sounds like a double standard based on race by the Sharptonites if you ask me. And not that hard to see for anyone willing to look at it. When are people gonna wake up to the fact that in his actions in this regard,Sharpton is no less a racist than anyone else and has no right claiming he is.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
j/c
Is Sharpton a racist?
I mean,where were the marches,protests and outcry for record labels to fire Hip Hop recording artists for their use of the word "ho's" and the degrading of black women?
This has been going on for years in the Hip Hop genre that also reaches millions. And many of those millions are under age poeople who music helps influence them.
Where is Al on that one? Wonder why when an old white guy makes such a comment,they call for his job and try to ruin his career? Yet when a black Hip Hop artist does the same thing over and over again Al doesn't call for the record labels to fire these black "artists"? (and I use the term loosly)
Sounds like a double standard based on race by the Sharptonites if you ask me. And not that hard to see for anyone willing to look at it. When are people gonna wake up to the fact that in his actions in this regard,Sharpton is no less a racist than anyone else and has no right claiming he is.
JMHO
Well, I'll probably catch a lot of crap for this, but you see pit, Sharpton is black - therefore, he CAN take a "do as we say, not as we do" stance. This is exactly the same as the N word.....blacks can say and use it, but if someone else does it becomes a "crime".
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The only difference between most of us and Don Imus is Imus has a nationally broadcast radio show. We all tell slightly racist jokes once in a while just as we all tell sexist jokes once in a while. White, black it doesn't matter. We ALL do it. And if you say you don't you're either a saint or a liar. And I don't see all that many saints on here.
Let Imus serve his suspension and get on with his life. He has been publicly flogged and it's time to let this go. Frankly, I think Al Sharpton is a bigger hate-monger than Don Imus will ever be.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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As far as I know, the producer (referencing a Spike Lee flick) called it 'the jigaboos vs. the wannabes'.
I actually just went and listened to it...what disturbs me more than anything is that directly after his nappy-headed ho's comment, he went on to say that all of the Tennesee girls are 'cute'...
...you know what, screw it...there's still no women's equality. They can play sports, and get higher paying and better jobs, but the mindset of our society will still not allow them to be esteemed for their acheivements at the end of the day...only what they look like.
I feel really sorry for those girls, because what was once a fond story for them to tell now becomes about a guy who looks like Donald Trump's acid-eating uncle.
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I still don't get how "nappy-headed ho" is a RACIST comment??
I don't think it has anything to do with the situation at hand persay - but it's worth noting that Howard Stern (who does vehemently hate Imus) has been on record for decades claiming that Imus used to go on racial tirades around his office.
As far as it not being racist...I've thought it over and while the words 'nappy' and 'ho' could - semantically - be portrayed as words not racially charged...Imus said them about black women...who he'd never met.
Racist or not...it's going to be percieved that way by a great deal of people.
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Racism makes me sick. Go ahead somebody tell me there's no such thing.
Of course it does Iam and I dont think the point is to say racism doesnt exsist but it exsist both ways and there is a major double standard that lack people especially black people in public roles can say stuff about white people and it is no big deal but this idiot says something stupid about some black girls and it is a big deal. If he was talking about a group of white women and called them a bunch of Barbie Dolls would anybody be mad? Its s stereotyical statement about white girls and that is fine right??
KING
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.I've thought it over and while the words 'nappy' and 'ho' could - semantically - be portrayed as words not racially charged...Imus said them about black women...who he'd never met.
Actually black and white women, there are white woman on the team. Hell one of the two teammates that spoke during the press conference was white. Funny no one has mentioned that.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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j/c
Is Sharpton a racist?
I mean,where were the marches,protests and outcry for record labels to fire Hip Hop recording artists for their use of the word "ho's" and the degrading of black women?
This has been going on for years in the Hip Hop genre that also reaches millions. And many of those millions are under age poeople who music helps influence them.
Where is Al on that one? Wonder why when an old white guy makes such a comment,they call for his job and try to ruin his career? Yet when a black Hip Hop artist does the same thing over and over again Al doesn't call for the record labels to fire these black "artists"? (and I use the term loosly)
Sounds like a double standard based on race by the Sharptonites if you ask me. And not that hard to see for anyone willing to look at it. When are people gonna wake up to the fact that in his actions in this regard,Sharpton is no less a racist than anyone else and has no right claiming he is.
JMHO
Well, I'll probably catch a lot of crap for this, but you see pit, Sharpton is black - therefore, he CAN take a "do as we say, not as we do" stance. This is exactly the same as the N word.....blacks can say and use it, but if someone else does it becomes a "crime".
That is exactly it, they can't say it but we can't? Isn't that racist in itself too?
Find what you love and let it kill you.
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I call my own two year old's hair "nappy". Did I miss some public edict that decried that only black people could be refered to as both nappy and hos???
Exactly. My bro's will say on the phone. "OSU get your nappy headed ass over here so we can get going". Saying someone has a nappy head is not racist whatsoever and I think the majority of people are sick of the media trying to keep it going. CNN has the story again this morning on their website frontpage.....err it happened last week,time to move on
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I actually just went and listened to it...what disturbs me more than anything is that directly after his nappy-headed ho's comment, he went on to say that all of the Tennesee girls are 'cute'...
Well, since the Rutgers team, if my count is correct, has 8 black girls and 3 white girls... and Tennessee has 7 black girls and 4 white girls... does that not make his comment LESS racist if he thinks the Tennessee girls are all cute? since by percentage, they are just about as black as the Rutgers girls?
yebat' Putin
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OMG.. DCDAWGFAN and I agreeing on this matter, look out, snow is coming!!..LMAO...
But I'm glad to see that despite Al and Jesse, you can see that this was wrong and Imus went over the line, again. Talking about a team of young women like that on a national stage is wrong and again, like I said in the other thread, he needs to apologize to them.
Also I pose a question to anyone who wants to answer it, do you think that if he would have said those comments about the Tennessee team, would he still have his job?? The short is that he would have been gone on friday!!!
P.S-> Al and Jesse have no clout on his job, Imus is getting more pressure from his corp headquarters, who is getting pressure from Advertisers and possibly the NCAA and Rutgers.
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Racism makes me sick. Go ahead somebody tell me there's no such thing.
Of course it does Iam and I dont think the point is to say racism doesnt exsist but it exsist both ways and there is a major double standard that lack people especially black people in public roles can say stuff about white people and it is no big deal but this idiot says something stupid about some black girls and it is a big deal. If he was talking about a group of white women and called them a bunch of Barbie Dolls would anybody be mad? Its s stereotyical statement about white girls and that is fine right??
KING
Is that the point, king? It's not mine. It may be the direction that this and most threads about racism go to but believe it or not there are other points of view.
The fact is that some man said something nasty about a group of young women and it seems like the prevailing attitude here is that HE's a victim. And, that's the way it usually is on these threads. Folks come in and defend the comments with the old "well they do it too" or "freedom of speech" argument.
Do guys like Sharpton and Jackson go overboard with their reactions? Yeah, I think so. Should Imus lose his job? I don't care but if he did I wouldn't mind. Sounds like he's made his share of these comments in his day. Maybe he'll learn from this one.
The one thing I find most objectionable is that a group of young girls who had reached a level of success in an endeavor that took some hard work were dismissed as "nappy-headed hos" on a national radio show and there aren't many responses on this thread that show any concern in that regard.
...always have been, always will be...
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I don't watch or listen to Imus but I do know he raises a lot of money for kids of all colors with cancer. Does any of this matter? Naw, Al/Jesse will pick up the slack if Imus is canned, or maybe not.
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Quote:
and called them a bunch of Barbie Dolls would anybody be mad
While Im not sticking up for Sharpton and his nonsense, or for Imus for that matter but how can even compare calling someone a barbie doll to calling them a nappy headed ho?
Come on guy.
Eat it Phil...
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I think there are several things at work here.. Imus is an idiot, if his boss thinks a 2 week suspension is enough, then it's enough. His boss is going to do what's best for the bottom line and since Imus didn't do anything illegal, that's all his boss is obligated to do.
Second, I think there is overreaction on the part of some.. like the Rutgers girl who said she thinks she'll be "scarred for life" from this... If this is the worst thing that ever happens to her in her life, she should count herself lucky. Now if somebody I knew and trusted insulted me like that, it could hurt... but some anonymous guy on the radio? Who cares what he thinks or doesn't think.
If Al and Jesse want to get involved in these situations, and it's obvious they do... then they should get involved from the standpoint of supporting those that actually had the offensive comments made about them... it's not about Al or Jesse, it's about these girls and Al and Jesse are grandstanding, plain and simple. If they wanted to use their fame and their public voice as a tool to help the girls then fine... but I don't really care if Al or Jesse want him fired, he didn't say ANYTHING about Al and Jesse.
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DawgD,
Your right, he has done good work for kids and vets! No one is disputing that. But this time he messed up!
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Posts: 3,845 |
DC,
Just like in any other job, depending on the infraction or how many infractions determine the penalty. If its 2 weeks, OK, but some were acting like he should not get anything!.
2 - the Rutgers girl probably did over-react about the "scarred for life" comment. But remember, they are under 21, so they have not had much life yet! By the time she is 30, this will be a distant memory!( hopefully)!
3 - Al and Jesse grandstanding, now is that a news item or what!!..HAHAH..LMAO!
Yes, they are and I thought Imus was not smart going on Al's show. Why, because that only serves Al, not the Rutgers team! I think I have been pretty consistent about were I thought his efforts should be. Also, going on the today show, CNN, and Al's radio( all people who he has killed in the past!) was not that smart either. I might have done CNN after I got down to rutgers!
4- I noticed you did not answer that question I posed?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813 |
Quote:
Second, I think there is overreaction on the part of some.. like the Rutgers girl who said she thinks she'll be "scarred for life" from this... If this is the worst thing that ever happens to her in her life, she should count herself lucky. Now if somebody I knew and trusted insulted me like that, it could hurt... but some anonymous guy on the radio? Who cares what he thinks or doesn't think.
I thought that comment was a bit melodramatic too. But he is hardly anonymous. People all over the country know what he said and I'm sure there are some who'd throw it back in her face. I hope that's not enough to scar her for life...
...always have been, always will be...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
Quote:
and called them a bunch of Barbie Dolls would anybody be mad
While Im not sticking up for Sharpton and his nonsense, or for Imus for that matter but how can even compare calling someone a barbie doll to calling them a nappy headed ho?
Come on guy.
You kind of made my point for me on the double standard issue.
Calling white girls Barbie Dolls is something I have heard black girls say about white girls in a stereotyping way. You say that is no big deal but if a white person says something stereotypical about a black person then it is racist? Thats a double statndard.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 832
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 832 |
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The fact is that some man said something nasty about a group of young women and it seems like the prevailing attitude here is that HE's a victim. And, that's the way it usually is on these threads. Folks come in and defend the comments with the old "well they do it too" or "freedom of speech" argument.
You're right - I see Immus as a victim. The 'race card' gets pulled so frequently that - mho - it is hard to take most claims seriously.
Do I think Immus's comments were stupid? Yes.
Do I agree with them? No.
Do I think the comments were racists? No.
Quote:
The one thing I find most objectionable is that a group of young girls who had reached a level of success in an endeavor that took some hard work were dismissed as "nappy-headed hos" on a national radio show and there aren't many responses on this thread that show any concern in that regard.
The comment (Immus) was stupid. The Rutgers team is in the public eye after playing for the national championship.
Until this year, Peyton Manning has been mocked as a big game choke artist on sports talk radio stations around the country. Should the people that make those comments be fired/suspended?
Listen to political radio shows sometime - President Bush is often referred to as an incompetent moron who is incapable of speaking in coherent sentences. Should the people that make those comments be fired/suspended?
Bottomline, if Immus called a team of predominantly white players, "bleached blonde valley girls with single-digit IQs" I don't think anyone would have noticed. There are hater and nay-sayers at every level.
If you want to see racism/hate behind every corner - you will find it.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
Racism makes me sick. Go ahead somebody tell me there's no such thing.
Ok I thought the point of the whole thread was whether what he said was racist or not. You made a comment(see your quote above) about racism but then went to say he shouldnt have downed these girls and their accomplishments. You are absolutely right in saying it was a ugly thing to say but is it racism. So he said the girls on Tenn were cute but said the girls on Rutgers werent (this includes white girls on both teams) so I just dont really see this is racism. Its not right to down the Rutgers girls but just because he said they were unattractive compared to the Tenn girls doesnt make it a racist statement.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
Bottomline, if Immus called a team of predominantly white players, "bleached blonde valley girls with single-digit IQs" I don't think anyone would have noticed.
Cough " double standard" cough
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813 |
Quote:
If you want to see racism/hate behind every corner - you will find it.
You can just as easily ignore it or gloss it over too. It seems to be the popular stance to take. 
...always have been, always will be...
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