DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Thomas, Mack, Gordon, Cameron, & Haden make Pro Bowl

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U consider me a homer??? ... *LOL* ...

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I've got the girlfriend knitting you a Brown sweater as we speak

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I think we have a roster right now we can with with and be right there with anyone ... crap bro ... say what u want ... we had NE beat ... they were done ... we lost ... my point is with decent QB play that game we should have beat the 2nd seed in the afc ...

so how far off can we really be ....

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So Campbell goes for 391 yards, 3 TD's and 0 INT's against New England and the defense lets out a huge fart, falls down, and let's the Pats win.

How much more "decent" does the QB play need to be?!

Listen, I can make a very strong case that outside of the guys named to the Pro Bowl the ENTIRE offensive roster should be let go and replaced top-to-bottom. Think about that.

And on defense, it was a combination of these keepers that have rolled-over and played dead time after time this year.

I like Kruger and am glad we signed him, but unless we get pressure because of scheme we're not good at all at getting to the QB.

We have some decent parts but we're several starters away on offense from being a playoff team. We aren't TRULY far away like we have been in the past when people have barked at how close they believed we were, but this wave that is surging is happening right at the time when we have 5 named pro-bowlers. That's no coincidence.

Nope, I'm not buying it. What I AM buying is that in one off-season we can truly get to where you and the other Homers think we are

ahhh... I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. we are not consistent contenders by no stretch of the imagination. I don't think anybody has said that we are. What we do have is a nucleus to build on, and that is a step in the right direction. Even our role players are better then what we have seen in years past.

We need a QB, no doubt about that. Its going to be tough to find. This highly touted QB class is more over rated then ever before.

We need another WR that can catch the ball.

We need our offensive line to act like is has two probowlers on it.

We need to look to the future and sign our own guys to extensions.

Hit on a few draft picks, pick up some free agents and this team will be fun to watch.

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So Campbell goes for 391 yards, 3 TD's and 0 INT's against New England and the defense lets out a huge fart, falls down, and let's the Pats win.

How much more "decent" does the QB play need to be?!

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wow,, one game? Look at what Matt Flynn did in just one game. Got him wealthy because he had ONE good game. What's he done since?


But you are right on that game, the D and Special teams let us down in that game. Campbell played well enough to win.. And should have.

I still see that game as the turning point in the season. It felt as if the wind got knocked out of the Browns at that point. it's been downhill ever since.

Actually Toad, if you look back, I said .500 ball. That certainly wouldn't make us world beaters or anything special.

I guess looking at some teams that are in the hunt of making the playoffs with such records you could call that "a playoff run". But that certainly wasn't the intent. Do I think we would be a serious contender with just a QB? Not at all.

But with the schedule we had this past season, I think with a capable starting QB, .500 ball could have been achieved.

j/c

To Toad's point:

We could replace every non-probowler on the offensive side of the ball and we wouldn't miss ONE guy...except for Schwartz and maybe Cooper and Baker...which is sad to even think about given that 2/3 of those guys weren't even on the active roster a few weeks ago.

Is there ONE non-probowler on offense who would start for another team in the league? (Schwartz has come along late again and might be the only one if he's not playing next to a pylon.)

It's great that we've got some pro bowlers...but there remains much work to be done.

I have been saying for weeks that we will see major changes on offense next season. We will replace the QB, RB, WR2, WR3, TE2, (unless they really like Gray's potential, and feel that he can contribute as the 2nd TE next season) and a couple of OL.

We are going to see major changes on offense this off-season. Some might be free agent additions, but I suspect that most will be drafted players.

On defense, I am more convinced than ever that we will look for an impact LB. Right now I just don't see that guy who drives the defense. I also feel that we will look for another CB, and I am becoming convinced that Ward may not be back.

We have a ton of holes, and limited resources. (even with extra draft picks) I do also feel that we have some talent ...... but the talent we have has not been enough to offset the poor play at other positions.

NRTU

We had 4 pro-bowlers on offense but we lack a QB. I still think the FO likes Hoyer and unless they are blown away by a QB in the upcoming draft, then take a developmental guy in rounds 2, 3 or 4.

If we can get a stud ILB and a WR with the first 2 picks, hopefully by trading down and picking up an extra 2nd, we can look at QB, S, CB, OG and HB in rounds 2, 3 and 4.

I think Hoyer, Campbell, rookie is good enough next year. If the rookie isn't Bridgewater, sit him for a year. Hell, I'd still consider sitting Bridgewater - I don't know enough about him to say if he's NFL ready or not.

However, a legit #2 receiver and an upgrade at ILB will immediately help both sides of the ball. Our LBs have to be better covering the TEs and HBs - that has killed us a number of times this year.

All MHO

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We had 4 pro-bowlers on offense but we lack a QB. I still think the FO likes Hoyer and unless they are blown away by a QB in the upcoming draft, then take a developmental guy in rounds 2, 3 or 4.

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No QB is floating my boat (so to speak) so I wouldn't be surprised at all if this comes down just like you say. Keep Hoyer, Dump Weeden, iffy on Campbell and go get 1 or 2 guys new guys, one from the draft and another Veteran that can play if needed. Maybe Campbell fills that hole, I don't know.

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No QB is floating my boat

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How much have you studied Bridgewater? Did you watch last night's game? Did you examine any of the links I provided that show actual pictures of him reading defenses, looking off safeties, beating the blitz, and making accurate throws?

If you haven't, you should check them out. This kid is a better prospect in my eyes than all but Luck in the last several years.

TJ Ward named Pro Bowl injury replacement for Polamalu.

T.J. Ward named a Pro Bowl replacement giving Cleveland Browns six participants in Sunday's game | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...t_river_default


BEREA, Ohio – Browns safety T.J. Ward will join five other teammates in Honolulu for the Pro Bowl on Sunday.

Ward, selected as an alternate a month ago, has been named an injury replacement for the Pittsburgh Steelers’ Troy Polamalu.

The Browns, who won just four games, have six players participating in Sunday’s game. It represents the most since the Browns went 10-6 in 2007 and sent six players that year as well.

Ward is one of four Browns making his first appearance. The others are receiver Josh Gordon, tight end Jordan Cameron and cornerback Joe Haden. Center Alex Mack earned his second trip to Hawaii, while left tackle is going for the seventh time.

Ward, a second-team All-Pro, registered a career-high 129 tackles and had two interceptions. He returned two turnovers for touchdowns this season. Pro Football Focus.com ranked him tied with Kansas City's Eric Berry as the NFL's third-best strong safety behind New England's Devin McCourty and the New York Giants' Will Hill.

Ward will also become an unrestricted free agent if the Browns don’t re-sign him by March 11.

In an effort to spice up the Pro Bowl, the game will feature a draft instead of the usual conference format. Players will be selected by Deion Sanders and Jerry Rice on Tuesday and Wednesday nights starting at 8 p.m., on the NFL Network.

He would have been in anyways with Thomas and Chancellor in the Super Bowl.

Ward should have made it over Polamalu anyway.

J/K


Time to sign him, & Mack...Lets see if this front Office is all about, if we dont resign Mack & Ward

If what was said about Chud is true, that the FO wanted to send a message and he refused to cut or not play guys. I could see both of these guys hitting the open market.

That "message" concerned players who were not performing very well. It was not concerning our Pro Bowl players.

Hopefully they are re-signed, hopefully the players in question have some desire to stay here.

A question to all that questioned the former coaching staffs ability. Not trying to start crap just a legit question I've asked a few times around here in different threads but have yet to get a response.
This year we have 6 ProBowlers on our team. Up from 2 last year. How is this not a reflection of improved coaching regardless of the win loss record?

I don't take anything away from the coaches... but the pro-bowl is largely a popularity contest, most players who do not play stat-driven positions have trouble making it the first year they play well... So of our pro-bowl players, Thomas and Mack made it before, I think Haden and Ward have been making strides toward being well known for a few years now and it was a matter of time based on their trajectory, Gordon and Cameron were surprises in the strides they took but they also benefitted from being the only two guys our QBs could throw too.. when your next best option has 400 yards, somebody has to catch some passes...

So I will give the staff some credit but I don't think it's like a bunch of players got significantly better this year...

That question could also cut both ways. They obviously coached up a couple players (Cameron being the biggest win for the coaches). But with talent, they also lost a lot of games. The coach is responsible for putting it all together into a functioning team, so you could make the argument that that's on Chud.

My answer to that would be that I don't know how much, if any, credit goes to the coaches for "improving" players who were pretty good to start with. Cameron would be the only "breakout" player in the group, and he was the only real pass-catching TE we had. Did he "get better" or just "get playing time"?

I don't remember any quotes of player X saying "coach so-and-so really helped me with this or that aspect of my game".

Little regressed, Bess was not "fixed", Schwartz started the season very poorly, Rainey was not used much and let go to find success elsewhere, again, I'm not sure where the blame goes.

The "we have more AllPros than wins argument" is still just being interpreted against the coaches. Fact remains that you still need to include up to 20 or more starters and contributors on top of the APro talent to field a competitive TEAM. That's where the FO failed the coaches. You almost have to try to field as bad a RB Unito we had on gamedays considering the cheap RB value virtually on the streets (case in point: Baker, Rainey, Blount, Woodhead etc etc), similar with the FB position. Maybe if we had any kind of run game,we'd have been able to close one or two more those 4th QTR leads?

In other words, the equation cuts like this too: if our top 5/6 top end talent is clearly better than that of other top 5-10 picking teams, then what does it say about the comparison of the OTHER 20+ starters? Maybe our "weakest" links were much worse than other team's weakest link? Same with depth....and imho it reflects what we've all seen. The way we lost was groundhog day on every sunday.....no run game to put away a lead, no pass rush despite a lead and not good enough coverage in clear cut coverage situations (3rd downs, 4th Qtr leads). We simply LACKED the horses there....and those goes back to they FO as much as the coaches.....it cuts both ways.

I think it's no coincidence that their elitist way of "evaluating" consequently leads to them underestimating and overlooking the meat of a roster and its cohesiveness. I'd argue that's actually a FOs Main job, but they're so pre-occupied with their CChip and Blue chip mindset that everything not in that range is more or less equally unimportant to,threm and probably deemed interchangeable. They're so preoccupied with finding difference makers that they forget to see the difference on every other talent levels. Their constant re-shuffling of the bottom of the roster with UDFA rooks auditioning them like a Casting Show in the hopes of finding america's next football Star....gameday pragmatics, ST and overall depth be damned are further proof for this.

Same applies for coaching talent as we've seen with Chud. You better show greatness pronto or their whacky mindset will Donald Trump you....neeeext.

This leaves me with only one conclusion. These guys don't understand the nuances of developing talent, they're all about "finding" talent, but that's not how it works. That'd be too easy....they think knowing what a winner has to look like equates to knowing how to get there. That's pretty much the definition of pretenders, isn't it? Cart before the horse....we've seen this pattern even in both their coaching hunts too....it's been the biggest constant with this regime so far

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This leaves me with only one conclusion. These guys don't understand the nuances of developing talent, they're all about "finding" talent, but that's not how it works. That'd be too easy....they think knowing what a winner had to look like equates to knowing how to get there. That's pretty much the definition of pretenders, isn't it?

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But, of course................you do understand the nuances of developing talent and you are a far cry from a pretender.

Let's look at the Chiefs. They were a team loaded with Pro Bowl talent in 2012, yet suffered through a miserable 2-14 season.

They started Matt Cassel and Brady Quinn at QB. (neither of whom made the Pro Bowl)

This year they changed coaching staffs, and also traded for Alex Smith at QB. While Smith is hardly a superstar QB, he is competent.

In each year, they rode their superstar RB like a horse. In 2012, Charles ran for 1500 yards and 5 TD, and a 5.3 yards/carry clip. In 2013, he ran for 1300 yards, at 5.0 yards/rush, and 12 TD.

The Chiefs went 11-5 this year.

Why?

Was it that they brought in superstar players on offense? Dod they add incredible WR talent that had thousand year seasons? Not really. Their leading receiver (WR) was Dwayne Bowe, with 673 yards and 5 TD. (Charles, also a carryover, had 693 yards receiving and 6 TD) I don't see this as the reason.

Why?

Was it the coach? In his last 5 seasons in Philly, how many times did Reid win 11 games? (once) He won 10 once. He finished up at 8-8 and 4-12. Was he a good coach, or a bad coach, at the end of his time in Philly? Chip Kelly came into Philly and took that 4-12 team that Reid left behind and turned them into a 10-6 team this year.

Why?

Could it be that Reid managed to get a competent QB in Smith? Could it be that Kelly developed a nice young QB in Foles?

Could that be the missing ingredient? Could it be that a competent (and above) QB turns a so-so team into a team with a winning record, and that a poor QB drags a team down like an anchor holding a ship in place?

I think that you need a great head coach in the NFL. That said, even a great head coach will struggle to win games without a good to great QB. Even a team with a great RB can struggle to win unless they get a competent QB. The Vikings struggled with Peterson. The Jags have been miserable despite the presence of MJD. They had a solid defense, and a great RB, yet lost. Why? No competent QB play.

The QB is vital in today's NFL. We have no QB on this team. (I'm not going to give Hoyer the spot just because he looked OK in a couple of games) We must find a QB, or we;ll continue to Waddle along, cut off at the knees, winning 4-5 games/year, and maybe even developing some good to great talent that just goes to waste. We need to fix that.

This is, in large part, why I disagree with the firing of Chud. By the end of the year, it was obvious that Weeden wasn't the answer. Hoyer was hurt. Campbell flaked out. Who could we play? The kid we signed off the Cowboy's practice squad? Chud was in a no win situation there.

Did the team give up? I don't think so. I do think that they were worn down in the 2nd half of games when they started to fall behind teams with superior talent at QB. They could not make mistakes and get away with them. The margin for error was non existent. Once they saw big mistakes, they knew, inside, as most of us watching did, that the game was essentially over. Players are human too.

We need a QB if we are going to win consistently. I think that everyone agrees with that. What we disagree with is how this affected the team, and Chud, last year.

Where were you when Haslam wanted to fire Chud...

Stop talking sense.....

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In other words, the equation cuts like this too: if our top 5/6 top end talent is clearly better than that of other top 5-10 picking teams, then what does it say about the comparison of the OTHER 20+ starters? Maybe our "weakest" links were much worse than other team's weakest link? Same with depth....and imho it reflects what we've all seen. The way we lost was groundhog day on every sunday.....no run game to put away a lead, no pass rush despite a lead and not good enough coverage in clear cut coverage situations (3rd downs, 4th Qtr leads). We simply LACKED the horses there....and those goes back to they FO as much as the coaches.....it cuts both ways.

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Lets break down and put some names to some of those 20+ players that you believe are inadequate... You say the FO ignored them because of this alleged "elitest" attitude...

Ok, as far as closing out games, they started the season with Trent Richardson, #3 overall pick, finally healthy.. almost everybody expected him to turn a corner and begin to produce.. they went and got Bess, who by all accounts, was exactly the type of possession type of receiver you need to extend drives and win games.. we all know how both of them turned out... Little should have made some progress to be more dependable in his second year and didn't... then you have Mitchell Schwartz who, instead of taking a nice step forward in his progress remained about the same, and that might be generous, in his second year...

On defense your potential superstar pass rusher is a rookie and, statistically speaking, had a pretty decent year as a rookie pass rusher though he does still need to round out his game to be a 3 down guy.. you added Kruger, a solid veteran presence on the other side.. Skrine actually showed nice progress and Gipson had flashes though wasn't nearly consistent enough and at times was a liability....

Obviously there are things they could have done, I'd have liked to see a higher profile OG brought in, I would have liked to see them go a different (more aggressive) route once TRich was traded...

Sounds to me like they tried to do exactly what you suggest they should have done only some of it didn't work out... like relying on TRich to turn a corner and Bess to produce as everybody thought he would.... then you have this other host of players that are supposed to fill the roles you suggest... Are they really that bad? Rubin, Taylor, DQ, Kruger, Sheard, Hughes, Bryant? Then you have young guys, Mingo, McFadden.....

So I can see some mistakes but I don't see this giant chasm of talentless players who are dragging our probowlers down... except at that one position....

Which, if you want to talk about closing games out, do you know we outscored our opponent 4 times in the 4th quarter this year.. the three games Hoyer started and week 17 in Pittsburgh when we scored a meaningless late TD that didn't matter... coincidence?

Lots of teams use a controlled passing game to grind out drives late in games to supplement the run, when the defense thinks you are going to run.... we have a pro bowl WR and a pro bowl TE and we weren't able to complete passes to sustain drives...

They (the FO) certainly were't perfect, but I don't think they ignored all the areas you seem to think they did..

Thanks for the elaborated response DC. I disagree on some points and I think you misinterpreted me somehow. I'll tackle some of it to make my point more clear.

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Lets break down and put some names to some of those 20+ players that you believe are inadequate... You say the FO ignored them because of this alleged "elitest" attitude...

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I never said that ALL 20+ are bad. My deduction was that since we had so much better top 5 talent than the AVG 4-6 win team, it meant in turn that the WHOLE rest as a GROUP would have played worse than those of your AVG 4-6 win team too. This is not some fantasy production and ceiling (think Mingo/McFadden), I'm talking strictly bottom line production.

Make no mistake, we have some above AVG talent there with the likes of Rubin, Bryant, Kruger and Sheard, but that's about it when it comes to starters. The rest, Skrine, Gipson, Robertson, Obi, any RB, Little, Bess, Mingo, Owens, Greco and Lauvao are well below AVG to strictly bad compared to NFL norm and even loser teams…in case you haven't counted them…that's HALF the starters on your team. If you have half the starters playing at well below AVG level, then that drags down the rest of your team, no? Even 5-6 AllPros...

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Sounds to me like they tried to do exactly what you suggest they should have done only some of it didn't work out

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I didn't suggest anything in my post. What I wanted them to do, both in the draft and FA, is well documented in the archives. I was all up and down urging them to do something about FS, CB2, ILB, OG, FB and WR. I always said I considered this the year to contend, no matter who the FO. The fact that we have 5-6 All Pros is proving my point that we have the top talent and that the window of opportunity was there. My accusation NOW is that the new FO mis-evaluated the current roster and went into "oh well, let's rebuild and wait and see"-mode. That was a mistake. You say it was mostly QB, I say BS to that. Sure, we would not have won the SB, but we could have played a WC game. The QB positions was upgraded (it's actually one of their biggest achievements) and the production was better, but we still lost as many games as before when it was worse, so this is not a good argument when it comes to understanding why we haven't improved overall.

Let's go through them:

RB: I mean, I understand we had TRich and yes, everyone would have played him too of course, BUT if you even entertained the thought of trading him early in the season (which they obviously did), THEN you absolutely HAVE TO do better than McGahee and a bunch of nobodies as backup plan and depth. I seriously think that at least 20 College teams had a more talented RB depth chart than the Browns last season. You almost have to try to be this horrible. Much blame was laid on the run blocking part of our OL, but that got squashed away when the RB production was still as bad as early in the season despite the OL developing and playing better down the stretch. Pretty much the only unit that progressed.Then Baker disproved it too, who while nothing special, was a clear upgrade to the bums before. Then there's PFF ranking us the 5th best run blocking OL. Even if you think they're way off, do you think they made them a top 5 when they were actually a bottom 5? Even with deviation factored in, they were at least adequate/AVG which means we had by far the worst RB production in this league. This is inexcusable.

FB: The Obi experiment was a big factor to the above. It was a stupid idea to begin with and it got worse when they held on to it. To field players this bad at those saturated positions is unbelievable. Again, I can probably come up with two dozen teams or more in College that had a better FB/RB battery…laughable.

WR: I loved the Bess move, but if I knew half of what he did at Miami (and they did, make no mistake about it. Not all, but they knew there was some fire, same with D.Bryant btw), then I NEVER would have given him that new contract. Even if we are naive enough to think they got duped and didn't know (hello, medicine check?), it was still a bad contract, as Bess got as much guaranteed money as the likes of R.Bush and Keenan Lewis.

Gordon/Little: they didn't like both coming in. What did they do? They contemplated trading Gordon and wanted Chud to fire Little in-season to send a silly message of "fear". Cool, but again, what did they DO about it, if they didn't believe in those guys to begin with? Exactly nothing, or more of the same: bring in a bunch of long shot nobodies and call it your depth and plan B. That's exactly my point again I'm trying to make here: if it's not CC/blue chip caliber, then who cares anyway. That's the elitist stuff I talk about.

They also had a shot at drafting T.Williams of Keenan Allen in the 3rd round…or Q.Patton, Ace Sanders or Kenny Stills in the 4th/5th. They went for McFadden and elected to punt the other picks They didn't like what they had and did nothing about it. If you don't agree with me that they did it on purpose, because of mis-evaluation of the inherited roster, then it'd mean they have no clue. Pick your poison.

OG/RT: Don't want to talk much about Schwartz here: I think he's good enough to start at RT going forward. He's one of the few young players that actually developed constantly as the year went on. He started out struggling with the new Norv Turner "good luck blocking my OTs" Offense and the turnstile Cousins next to him that was inserted just a couple weeks before opening day.
The OGs: I had Slauson high on my FA wishlist, but was in wait and see mode myself with what we had, so I can't fault them here and won't much. But again, overall the OL wasn't the problem, neither in pass or run blocking.

ILB: going in with Robertson as a starter and a big question mark in DQ as a probable system mis-fit was, again, very "optimistic" at best…and again no depth, no backup plan, just another bunch of UDFAs. Robertson actually started off strong but then got exposed badly and they could do NOTHING about it, because they didn't provide the coaches with a viable backup plan. What was Chud/Horton gonna do? Play projects like Eubanks…a fresh SS/ILB himself? Or play some ST player like Carder? Same pattern here…they saw no viable in their prime blue chipper in FA, so "who cares", let's roll with what we have. Careless and no differentiation on the mid to lower levels of talent again

CB2: So many good to decent FAs went for far less $$ than expected. They did nothing. Oh, right, they signed the Falcons demoted nickel CB. The Falcons were so bad at DB that they made CB Trufant their 1st round pick and let Owens go….oh, and they drafted McFadden, who couldn't hit the field and when he did, he looked like some late rounder.
This is the best example of my "elitist" argument. They wanted Grimes or bust. We're talking CB2 here, we already have Haden, we didn't necessarily need another ProBowler. A good decent FA like Munnerlyn, Lewis etc would have helped and upgraded the spot, but no…
As for Skrine: I think he's incredibly overrated on here. He had a handful of really good games, but was incredibly, frustratingly inconsistent and had terrible games throughout the season too (MIA, GB, NYJ just to name his low lights) that somehow got ignored. Opposing WR2 ate us up and either Owens or Skrine covered them. PFF also ranked him as a bottom 10 starting CB I think. He's a good nickel CB, NOT a CB2….most of us knew that last season…and the FO obviously too since they went after Grimes, but what was their backup plan? CChip or bust, there's no gray area in between

FS: See CB2. If anyone thinks Gipson was anywhere near good or even NFL AVG, then there's no use to discuss this further, as I strongly disagree. He and Owens/Skrine were a big reason (no pass rush didn't help) why we could not close out some 4th Qtr leads very well knowing the opponent had to pass.

pass rush: Here's their biggest egg, because it not only exposed their STYLE of thinking, but also the content part. They went all in this offseason to improve and solidify what was already a decent D-group. They wanted an attacking D and spent millions of millions and cap and draft resources to get there: They declined a nice looking trade down offer for it too. Of the humani…eh, value!
They gave Bryant 16mil guaranteed, well knowing of his heart problems. It was a risk and we will see how this plays out, but I don't have a good feeling already about it. Kruger was overpaid, but I'm actually ok with that. My beef here is less about the money, but the bottom line production….or lack thereof. We had exactly what we wanted MULTIPLE times…..4th Qtr leads with our attacking D ready to pin their ears back and destroy the QB and passing game. Well, we all know how that has worked out.

This, along with hiring/firing Chud, was their second biggest egg…and considering those TWO things are all they actually DID, they're batting .000 in my book while watching a lot of strikes go right through the middle with their bat (cap space, draft position) calmly resting on their shoulders.

Candidly, that was as bad a first year I could have imagined considering the opportunities.

You want to make this mono-causal and all about QBs and wash their hands clean on the rest I just mentioned? Fine, but I'm not buying it. We had enough decent QB performances, ironically from all THREE of them, to win more than 4 games and while I won't absolve the coaching from having a hand in this, I will not accept the one-sided narrative that the number of AllPros is indicative of bad coaching alone….it was bad managing and setting the coach's up too…and that is the root cause, as a coach and then the player's hit the field only after the FO's job handing over the material to work with.

The only thing I will disagree with you is your complaint about trading away 2013 draft picks. That's looking like a brilliant idea. The 2013 class as a whole might be one of the weakest EVER. I'm glad we avoided it like the plague.

Terrance Williams was a top 50 talent last season. Right now, do your think the Cowboys would trade him for McFadden and a 3rd and 4th this draft? The Chargers with K.Allen? I doubt it…

The trades turned out "ok" in terms of value (hardly a jackpot though), so, isolated, it's by far my last complaint, but it fits my point of how they went to business and the faulty logic behind it, even though some of the moves, isolated, were ok. As a whole, it obviously wasn't and there are reasons for it.
My point was that we had opportunities to fill BOTH 2013 and future needs with those picks. Those players would have their rookie year behind them and get better…there's a reason future picks are less valuable than draft day picks. You delay/speed up a process of development with it. That can be a fit with certain teams and that's why those trades happen every draft. I just disagree that the new FO inherited a rebuilding roster. It was young enough and it was talented enough with well defined needs, that were obvious for most fans, even casual one's, that should have been tackled in FA and the draft….they half arsed both and punted both into this offseason….then they scapegoated their hand picked HC for not winning enough…..what a bunch of hypocrites. I wish Haslam would have been more consequential and fired LomBanner too, but not doing it means he's either a hypocrite or a clueless idiot since he can't see how the blame game can and HAS TO get passed onto the FO too. I think he senses he's being a hypocrite since he has taken a hands on approach lately.

I understand your main idea. Keenan Allen fell because people thought he was slow as molasses. I'm not going to hold it against the front office for passing on him. However, I wanted Terrance Williams.

Lombardi and company must have thought Mcfadden could be a #2 CB. That was our #1 need last year. I don't think Tyrann Mathieu could have played that role. I see him as a glorified nickel or slot CB. We've got Skrine for that. Plus I wouldn't want him around Josh Gordon.

Pro- Football Focus All-AFC North Team

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Ben Roethlisberger (PIT)

In a down year for quarterbacks across the league, no AFC North signal-caller finished among the Top 10 highest graded players at the position. Roethlisberger was just outside at 11, though, with a strong middle of the season making up for a fairly pedestrian beginning and end. Not his strongest season by any stretch, but still far better than any of his divisional counterparts.

Running Back: Giovani Bernard (CIN)

In a year in which rookie running backs were prominent throughout, it’s fitting that the first back selected in April’s NFL Draft was one of the positions best performers. Playing 627 snaps as a rookie, he made so many highlight reel plays that we were all left craving more. Dangerous as a runner and a receiver, he forced a whopping 44 missed tackles from 226 offensive touches. Electric with the ball in his hands, an increase in snaps, and opportunities to make big plays, is expected in 2014 and beyond.

Running Back: Le’Veon Bell (PIT)

With no standout fullback to speak of in the North, we’re going with another rookie running back in our All-AFC North Team in Pittsburgh’s Bell. He missed the first three weeks of the season through injury, but really impressed as the season went on, 28 of his 36 missed tackles forced as a runner came from Week 11 onwards. Giving the Steelers the type of player they can feel confident handing the ball to 20 times a game for the first time in a few years Bell, like Bernard in Cincinnati, gives his team plenty of reason to feel confident about the running game going forward.

Wide Receivers: A.J. Green (CIN), Antonio Brown (PIT) and Josh Gordon (CLE)

Like fullback, there wasn’t much reason to get excited about a tight end in the AFC North in 2013 and, with a plethora of options at wide receiver it made too much sense to opt for a three wide receiver set instead. All three finished in the Top 5 in receiving yards in the NFL last year, with Green’s 1,426, incredibly, the lowest of the three. Brown saw his targets increase with Mike Wallace gone from Pittsburgh, and did his best to make the most of all of them, finishing in the Top 15 among all wide receivers with a Drop Rate of 6.78.

Gordon lead the league in receiving yards despite missing the first two games through suspension, including an incredible 498 yards in Weeks 12 and 13 alone. All three are young enough that we’ve probably not even seen the best of them yet, but their 2013 season were each fantastic in their own way.

Left Tackle: Joe Thomas (CLE)

The more things change the more they stay the same and, despite all the constant upheaval in Cleveland, Thomas has remained one of the best left tackles in football throughout. 2013 was no different, with his +29.8 Pass Blocking grade the best in the league for the second time in the last three years. Regardless of which quarterback the Browns have on the field, they can at least feel safe in the knowledge that there’s no better pass protector on the left side.

Left Guard: Andrew Whitworth (CIN)

How good was Cincinnati’s Whitworth in 2013? Well, good enough that he finished as our 13th-highest graded left tackle and as our fifth-highest graded left guard. Switching positions late in the year without missing a beat Whitworth added to his overall value as he showed the versatility to go with his overall dominance.

Center: Alex Mack (CLE)

Like Thomas at left tackle, Mack has been a pillar of consistency at center for the Browns. 2013 was the second-highest graded season of his career and saw him finish as our fourth-highest graded player at the position. Solid as a pass blocker, impressive against the run and penalised just three times in the regular season, there’s a lot to like about how Mack played in 2013.

Right Guard: David DeCastro (PIT)

Showing himself as the player we were sold when the Steelers drafted him in the first round a year ago, DeCastro rebounded from a rookie season where he played in just three games due to injury, to be the best right guard in the division. Three rocky performances in the second half of the season brought his overall grade down, but he was generally impressive throughout, particularly as a run blocker.

Right Tackle: Andre Smith (CIN)

There was some doubt as to whether the Bengals would bring back Smith this past offseason but, after a 2013 season that saw him finish as our seventh best right tackle, they’ll be glad they did. Particularly impressive in pass protection, just 12 offensive tackles finished the year with a higher Pass Blocking Efficiency rating than Smith’s 95.6.

DEFENSE

Defensive Interior: Arthur Jones (BAL) and Haloti Ngata (BAL)

Though he was some distance off the top and second tier at 3-4 defensive end, Jones still had a stellar season as he heads towards free agency. Just three players at the position had a higher Run Stop Percentage than Jones’ 10.0%, with 26 tackles that resulted in a defensive stop from 260 snaps against the run. He was solid as a pass rusher too, with 25 total pressures from 238 pass rushing snaps. Ngata spent more time at nose or defensive tackle this year and, like Jones, he may not have been one of the best at his position, but was no slouch either. He too had 26 tackles resulting in a defensive stop which, coming from 309 snaps against the run gave him a RSP of 8.4%, tied for 12th amongst all defensive tackles.

Edge Defenders: Elvis Dumervil (BAL) and Michael Johnson (CIN)

Two fairly different players fill the edge defenders spots on this team with Cincinnati’s Johnson playing a full time role that saw just eight 4-3 defensive ends play more snaps in the regular season. Solid as a pass rusher, where he got plenty of pressure but also saw more pass rushing snaps than all but four defensive ends, Johnson’s real strength was against the run. His RSP of 8.4% was tied for fifth at the position, but his overall play saw only New England’s Rob Ninkovich finish with a higher grade against the run.

Baltimore’s Dumervil was used much more in passing situations, with just 176 snaps against the run, but his overall play probably warranted more than that. There was certainly nothing wrong with his play against the run but he thrived as a pass rusher, where his Pass Rushing Productivity Rating of 15.1 was second among outside linebackers.

Linebackers: Vontaze Burfict (CIN), Lawrence Timmons (PIT) and Daryl Smith (BAL)

The AFC North’s linebackers are headed by Cincinnati’s Vontaze Burfict who took a big leap forward this past season. Particularly in coverage, where he had an interception and four pass breakups to go along with some nice work bringing down receivers quickly after they’d caught the ball, he was one of the best 4-3 outside linebackers in the league. The one negative in his game you’d like to see less of is the number of penalties, with 14 in 2013, but his overall level of play kept him above the rest in the division.

Smith saw his overall grade fall with some poor games down the stretch, but his work in coverage and as a pass rusher was amongst the best in the league. Timmons (-3.4) might seem like a strange selection given his overall grade, but he was let down by three really poor performances, and showed some really good work in between. With 44 tackles resulting in a defensive stop from 410 snaps against the run, his RSP of 10.7% was ninth amongst all inside linebackers.

Cornerbacks: Joe Haden (CLE) and Adam Jones (CIN)

Haden seems to split opinion around the league, with some viewing him as more of a shutdown corner than others. What shouldn’t be up for debate, however, is the fact that he is coming off an impressive 2013 season. Giving up just 557 yards through the air all year, he gave up just six receptions for 44 yards, with two interceptions and two pass breakups when lined up opposite A.J. Green in two contests against the Bengals. Jones continued his career revival in Cincinnati with another solid year under then defensive co-ordinator Mike Zimmer. Used almost exclusively as the team’s right cornerback, he allowed a reception once every 11.4 snaps in coverage.

Free Safety: George Iloka (CIN)

The Day 1 starter in Cincinnati in his second year, Iloka was tied for eighth among all safeties with five pass breakups in the regular season. Allowing just 53.8% of the passes thrown into his coverage to be caught, he also allowed the eighth-fewest yards through the air. All in all a very solid second year and the best in a division that lacked a true standout at the position.

Strong Safety: T.J. Ward (CLE)

As good a strong safety as there was in the NFL in 2013, Ward’s play against the run in particular was something to behold. His 29 stops against the run were five more than the next highest safety with a RSP of 7.2% on running plays where he was lined up within eight yards of the line of scrimmage. Having to fight off the challenge of Pittsburgh’s Troy Polamalu for this spot, it was that strength against the run which saw Ward win out.

SPECIAL TEAMS

Kicker: Justin Tucker (BAL)

Tied with New England’s Steven Gostkowski for the most attempts and field goals made, Tucker finished the year making more than 90% of his field goals for the second straight year. The Ravens won the game against Detroit on Monday Night Football on his leg alone, including that incredible 61-yard game winner.

Punter: Sam Koch (BAL)

No punter in the AFC North ranked in the Top 10 at the position, but Koch was the best of the bunch at 14. His 29 punts inside the 20 were tied for 12th most by a punter in 2013.

Returner: Brandon Tate (CIN)

Unlike at the punter spot, there were plenty of impressive returners in the division this year, with both Antonio Brown and Jacoby Jones putting up a fight. We’ve gone with Tate however, with the Bengals return man making more out of what he was given and averaging 26.1 yards per kick return.

Special Teamer: Robert Golden

Fans of our weekly Third Phase article will have seen PFF’s Neil Hornsby talking up Golden already, with the Steelers’ special teamer grading positively in both punt and kick coverage. His overall special teams grade was second only to Arizona’s Justin Bethel, and there’s certainly no shame in that.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/20/2013-pff-all-afc-north-team/
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Maybe I overlooked it but they left out TE. I would assume that would have gone to Jordan Cameron.

Remember when people were being mocked for wanting DeCastro over Weeden?

I'm willing to bet that if Benjamin had stayed healthy all year, we'd see him on that list as well for his special-teams play.

At this point you can talk me into a turd sandwich over Weeden.

lol... yeah, that.