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Remember when people were being mocked for wanting DeCastro over Weeden? 
Yeah, that was probably me and I'd still do it any day. When you need a QB and a G, you always take the QB, even if the chances to succeed are 20% at QB and 80% at G, but I've given up that posters on this board understand the concept of value…also, after 4 seasons this G becomes a FA and not many good FA Gs are being re-signed. No other "good" players hit the open market as much as interior OL, esp. OG. Take a wild guess why….exactly, value.
So, to summarize DeCastro was horrible in his rook season, had a strong 2nd season, but still blew out the knee of his PB C colleague on one of the most stupid plays I've seen the past years
Why the DeCastro pick was still bad value:
- The Steelers OL didn't improve with DeCastro. Their rookie RB ran for what? 3.5ypc? Impressive….
- they had to move him from LG to RG because he wasn't good enough at pass blocking. No GM wants to draft RGs in the 1st round, because they're the least important of the 5 positions on the OL and easy to fill adequately anywhere in the draft, FA and even UDFA. The "drop off" from DeCastro to an AVG RG isn't as significant as at other positions
- case in point...their LG, a former UDFA, graded out better than DeCastro
As long as the Steelers draft players like DeCastro, Gilbert, Adams and J.Jones early they won't go anywhere and waste more precious seasons of a true AllPro caliber QB
#gmstrong
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But is he better than a turd sandwich? Because Weeden definitely is not.
The point is that looking back now of course you would take DeCastro over Weeden. (I think that is the point anyway. I kind of blacked out after reading this exchange for the 75th time).
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Sure, you'd do. You can take a DeCastro n the 1st everys draft and still win 4 games a season.
We did the same mistake 2009 with Mack. How many PO games did we play? And now we either have to let him walk or committ huge money to him
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"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Remember when people were being mocked for wanting DeCastro over Weeden?
yep... I got murdered for that
I had other people I wanted way though
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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So you are saying we should not draft good players because we will eventually have to pay them? Or are you saying we should draft good player and not pay them? Isn't the point to get good players?
I am confused.
(Again. This is another argument that has been going on incessantly, I might have blacked out).
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I'd rather pick an 80% guard rather than a 28 year old 20% QB. I don't know what's valuable about the latter.
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LOL Gotta love the Josh Gordon comment ....... Cleveland Browns place three players on each team in Pro Bowl | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._special-reportBEREA, Ohio -- Browns receiver Josh Gordon demonstrated Wednesday night he's not only deceptively fast on the field, but quick-witted on social media. Does this thing have a supplemental draft..?? — Josh Gordon (@JOSH_GORDONXII) January 23, 2014 The 2012 second-round supplemental pick supplied one of the few funny lines during the three-hour-long Pro Bowl draft show televised on NFL Network. Gordon is one of six players representing the 4-12 Browns in Hawaii on Sunday night. Pro Bowl organizers, attempting to inject more interest in the much-maligned all-star game, eschewed the traditional AFC-NFC format for a fantasy-style draft this year. Gordon, left tackle Joe Thomas and cornerback Joe Haden were selected by alumni captain Jerry Rice. Safety T.J. Ward, center Alex Mack and tight end Jordan Cameron will play for the squad led by alumni captain Deion Sanders. The six Pro Bowlers are the most for the Browns since after the 2007 season. Live from the #ProBowlDraft #AlohaBrowns @joehaden23 @JOSH_GORDONXII #JordanCameron pic.twitter.com/sn0adjjVm7 — T.J. Ward (@BossWard43) January 23, 2014
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Complete rosters: 2014 Pro Bowl rosters set following first-ever 2-day draft event - CBSSports.com http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...day-draft-eventFor the first time ever, the Pro Bowl will feature "unconferenced" teams with players selected not based on their AFC or NFC affiliation but via a two-day draft. On Tuesday, captains Jerry Rice and Deion Sanders, serving as de facto general managers for head coaches Ron Rivera and Chuck Pagano, respectively, selected defensive tackles, offensive guards, offensive centers, fullbacks, special teamers and punters. Additionally, team captains were also selected. For Team Rice it was Drew Brees and Robert Quinn. And for Team Sanders: J.J. Watt and Jamaal Charles. On Wednesday, it was the rest of the rosters. Below are the results: Team Rice Coach: Ron Rivera, Panthers QB Drew Brees, Saints QB Philip Rivers, Chargers QB Alex Smith, Chiefs WR Josh Gordon, Browns WR Alshon Jeffery, Bears WR Brandon Marshall, Bears WR Larry Fitzgerald, Cardinals TE Jimmy Graham, Saints TE Tony Gonzalez, Falcons RB LeSean McCoy, Eagles RB DeMarco Murray, Cowboys RB Matt Forte, Bears FB Mike Tolbert, Panthers T Joe Thomas, Browns T Tyron Smith, Cowboys T Jordan Gross, Panthers G Jahri Evans, Saints G Ben Grubbs, Saints G Evan Mathis, Eagles C Ryan Kalil, Panthers C Nick Mangold, Jets DE Robert Quinn, Rams DE Cameron Jordan, Saints DE Cameron Wake, Dolphins DT Jason Hatcher, Cowboys DT Marcell Dareus, Bills DT Kyle Williams, Bills OLB Justin Houston, Chiefs OLB Robert Mathis, Colts OLB John Abraham, Cardinals ILB Vontaze Burfict, Bengals ILB Derrick Johnson, Chiefs CB Joe Haden, Browns CB Brandon Flowers, Chiefs CB Antonio Cromartie, Jets CB Alterraun Verner, Titans S Eric Reid, 49ers S Jairus Byrd, Bills S Antrel Rolle, Giants ST Justin Bethel, Cardinals PR Dexter McCluster, Chiefs K Stephen Gostkowski, Patriots P Johnny Hekker, Rams LS Matt Overton, Colts Team Sanders Coach: Chuck Pagano, Colts QB Andrew Luck, Colts QB Cam Newton, Panthers QB Nick Foles, Eagles WR A.J. Green, Bengals WR Dez Bryant, Cowboys WR Antonio Brown, Steelers WR DeSean Jackson, Eagles TE Jason Witten, Cowboys RB Jamaal Charles, Chiefs RB Eddie Lacy, Packers FB Marcel Reece, Raiders T Trent Williams, Redskins T Duane Brown, Texans T Branden Albert, Chiefs G Marshal Yanda, Ravens G Logan Mankins, Patriots G Kyle Long, Bears C Mike Pouncey, Dolphins C Alex Mack, Browns DE J.J. Watt, Texans DE Greg Hardy, Panthers DE Mario Williams, Bills DT Ndamukong Suh, Lions DT Gerald McCoy, Buccaneers DT Dontari Poe, Chiefs OLB Brian Orakpo, Redskins OLB Tamba Hali, Chiefs OLB Terrell Suggs, Ravens ILB Luke Kuechly, Panthers ILB Paul Posluszny, Jaguars CB Patrick Peterson, Cardinals CB Darrelle Revis, Buccaneers CB Brent Grimes, Dolphins CB Tim Jennings, Bears S Eric Berry, Chiefs S Eric Weddle, Chiefs S T.J. Ward, Browns ST Matthew Slater, Patriots PR Cordarrelle Patterson, Vikings K Justin Tucker, Ravens P Brandon Fields, Dolphins LS J.J. Jansen, Panthers The Pro Bowl kicks off at 7:30 p.m. ET, Sunday, Jan. 26 in Honolulu, Hawaii.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I was kind of hoping Gordon and Haden would go against each other.
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The 2012 second-round supplemental pick supplied one of the few funny lines during the three-hour-long Pro Bowl draft show televised on NFL Network.
Are you kidding me? I watched about 15 minutes of night one, and realized how tedious this was going to be, but it was three hours? My sympathies to anybody who sat through the entire thing.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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So you are saying we should not draft good players because we will eventually have to pay them? Or are you saying we should draft good player and not pay them? Isn't the point to get good players?
No, I'm talking about VALUE here...and taking interior OL early more often than not is bad value, because of future cap money and because it messes up the rest of the draft. Our 2009 and the recent Steelers drafts are perfect examples for that.
Taking elite interior OL high becomes a problem when their contracts are up for most teams....that's why almost every offseason you have two AllPro interior OL hit the market, it's bad value to have 6-8mil tied up for a G or even C, who hold slightly more value.
We don't have that problem right now and in the past simply because we have the least amounts of cap money tied up to QBs, where most teams have the most cap space invested, which leaves less to other less valuable positions. Since QB is THE value position, that's where the money goes. We simply have not found our fQB to be confronted with that problem, but it's everywhere else around the league....
Imagine we had drafted Wilson at QB...no way we would pay Mack with his contract Extension looming, thus making it bad value, so we only got 2-3 really good seasons out of him....same with guys like DeCastro. The Steelers had even problems re-signing own grown mid rounders like K.Lewis because of the money owned to vets like Roethli and Pola. you can only pay so many non QBs on your roster and when push comes to shove, it's always interior OL not getting re-signed. Why ? Because their less valuable and easier to replace than a CB1, WR1, LT, Pass rusher etc
Considering this dynamic, it makes it even more stupid to draft a G high because you can find a very good plug and play one in every FA when you need one for a SB push. That's why more often than not those Gs end up with contenders (think Vasquez to Denver). Why draft one if there's enough around in FA? That's exactly why Rolling the dice on a risky QB when you dont have one is more valuable than taking a "Save" G. HOw often do AllPro QBs hit the market"? Not even decent one's (think Cutler).
This is basic for every FO in the league and if you can't see it, then I can't help you.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Why draft one if there's enough around in FA?
I agree with most of what you are saying, DJ, but can you expand this thought further? Seems to me that we will be paying more to a FA OG, than if you drafted one or two in the early-mid rounds...
Last edited by bbrowns32; 01/23/14 09:09 AM.
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Sure....
If a team has 4-5 needs and a G is one of them. This team Plans to fill half of that with early picks and another two in FA. So they've decided to invest money in a need or two. The best bang for the buck is at G. You get an elite one for 5-7mil/season. You can't sniff an elite OT, QB, WR or CB with that and there will be less of them available anyhow.
Thus, it's more VALUEable to go get that G in FA and try to draft those high value positions early in the draft where they are controllable and less expensive. That's why I said what you quoted.
As I pointed out though...this only makes sense for contenders. For teams in rebuild mode it'd be wasted money (any Non-QB FA for that matter)
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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granted interior OL is not the Primary position as in rare items. But most who hit the FA market have some health issues or the team has cap issues. Why don't we actually get to that stage and we can always release a big contract two three years from now if we get in that situation. To say it is wise to not sign. You know who hits the FA or get traded - WR...not talking the few 3-4 elite. But your Wallace or anyone with a character flaw. Again so much is determined by the Cap situation. We are just scratching the serface...lets at least reach the play offs a couple of times before we have to worry about releasing our talent with big pay checks. Not now when we are 4-12 with 40mil cap space.
Oh regarding your Wilson comparison - didn't they draft a center pretty high...his 2nd contract should be coming up soon...betcha they pay him???
Steelers have problems cause they have been good for so long so they have the TALENT and have to keep a certain amount to juggle the Cap...again we are at the tip of the iceberg and you are saying let them go. Cause if and when we are in Cap trouble we will have to then...so lets do it then. Not now. If we do not sign Mack or Ward I'm pretty sure its because they wish to move on. That there will not be some home team discount that some will be willing to give. Maybe in a year or two but not now with no HC or direction.
As for drafting the OG high...its all about when you draft - actually I see a lot of teams who are successful drafting OGs high cause they get first crack at the best OG late in the draft. LOS is important. 49ers I know have two??? We were going gaga over Rainey that we let go well I think he has two OGs pretty high?
Dallas' Offense had a different flow this year cause they got the proper OGs.
I do think as far as team needs go we do not have a gaping hole there. But you wish to UPGRADE a team at this stage not DOWNGRADE...Losing Mack will probably move over Greco (who knows we don't have an OL Coach unless Sullivan stays??? Why didn't he get a job like Warhop did?
Anyway Greco at C we downgrade, Now we are back to Pinkston n Lava at OG and who says we will sign Lava as he is a FA. We could be at a position of NEED if we don't sign Mack. making it almost essential we make a high investment.
JMHO
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CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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OK .... that was really cool.
They have an idiotic pre-game show ...... BUT they asked Drew Brees what he likes about the new format, and he said that he liked being able to play with guys he could only admire from afar. They asked him, "Like who?", and he mentioned Josh Gordon, followed by Joe Thomas.
That was really cool, hearing a guy like Brees single out 2 Browns out of all of the players on his team.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Maybe trying to incite a trade?  
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Quote:
Maybe trying to incite a trade?
But what would we have to give up to get Brees?
#GMSTRONG
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every pick in the draft for the next 10 years.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I don't think that is how Steve meant it.........or are you just being facetious?
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“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I don't think that is how Steve meant it.........or are you just being facetious?
Maybe I should have made it purple.
#GMSTRONG
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My bad..............sorry.
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My bad..............sorry.
hehehe...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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i KNOW its just a pro bowl game...
but anybody notice the defensive players from buffalo in the game?
gives me hope that ward and haden will be back in the pro bowl next year, on top of maybe we get a D lineman in there.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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My predix would be Bryant.... if he comes back...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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yea that what i was thinking. i wonder if he can make big Phil do a 180 on his game, too?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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yea that what i was thinking. i wonder if he can make big Phil do a 180 on his game, too?
anything's possible, Dawg...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Gordon had a nice TD catch at the end if the half.
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Gordon has been wide open at times today, and just missed completely by the QB. Brees had a bad throw to him that could have been a TD, and Rivers threw one way behind him that also could have been a TD.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Gordon has been wide open at times today, and just missed completely by the QB. Brees had a bad throw to him that could have been a TD, and Rivers threw one way behind him that also could have been a TD.
Gordon's fault. They were just trying to make him feel at home with bad qb play
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What was Ward thinking?
That was like the hit on Gronk.
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When I first saw the hit, I was extremely outraged. I concur, WTF was Ward thinking? Completely, completely stupid and that is why I think this whole pro-bowl draft thing is stupid. Players on same team facing teammates, utterly stupid IMO. By the sounds of it though, the draft will be sticking. 
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To be fair, Gordon had no reason to jump during that.
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