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No QB in the history of the NFL has ever busted because of fans or local media.
you had a good run Hank.
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Okay, that's fair. So, are we going to get a Pete Carroll caliber HC but with more discipline to manage Manziel's ego?
What ego? I mean I know he has one but I've not really seen anything that leads me to believe it needs to be "managed"... I saw him on the sidelines trying to get his star WR under control, I saw him trying to pump up his defense, I saw him being very animated in trying to pump up his offense.. I saw him a couple times where it appeared he was inciting his defense with "Just get the ball back for me and we can win this game"... Basically I saw the kind of leadership and confidence I want a QB to have... I know some on this board have an "ideal" in mind of a guy who is 100% in control of his emotions and knows exactly when and how to display them... I've been watching sports for a long time and I will tell you this.. I would much rather have a guy that is a little overly emotional and work with him to keep it under control than to have a guy that is overly stoic and passive and try to get him excited.. it just doesn't work.
As far as Manziel the player, I was more impressed with his pocket presence and his accuracy than I thought I would be. His accuracy on the run from awkward positions is something you absolutely can't teach. It's funny, he dropped down a couple times and threw that 3/4 Bernie Kosar delivery but the ball was right where he wanted it.
I think he is going to need to work on not breaking down the play quite so quick and giving his receivers a chance to adjust and get open... but that can be taught.. I agree with the person above who said they see more Russel Wilson in him than RGIII... He is just a lot more animated.
yebat' Putin
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Johnny Manziel is a football hero.
Steve, are you being sarcastic or do you like Manziel?
What are your thoughts on him?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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No QB in the history of the NFL has ever busted because of fans or local media.
I disagree. The fans/media are brutal beyond belief and classlessly boo their own players and cheer when they are injured. The media brzenly asks the owners/fo if they are the three stooges/insult them.
There is hardcore hate in this city. It mentally affects the players after a while, especially the QBs who get tore apart weekly in the media.
How many times do you have to be told you suck before you start to believe it?
Is why I wish he would not come here. Cleveland is where QBs come to die.
I think he is a spunky kid and deserves better than Cleveland.
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I am not a pro scout and never was. I scouted for a collegiate service, but that was awhile ago.
I don't think we have to trade up to get Manziel. There's Teddy, Bortles, and Johnny Football. The Rams will probably take Matthews, the OT from A & M.
The fact that we need a QB makes him worthy of consideration. Of that, there is no doubt, Vers. He has the kind of spark and that can turn around an offense which has been struggling.
My biggest concern about Manziel is that he's too instinctual... and not enough cerebral.
Can he be 'coached up?'
He truly does have a Brett Favre/John Elway quality to his game... but I'm still on the fence with him.
Given his size, the 'wildness' he shows, and the fact that pro D's can possibly plan against him, I worry that he'll be a "flash in the pan" QB.
True enough... he's a 'winner'... but that's in the college ranks. My biggest worry is that his winning ways won't translate to the Pros.
Can he work within a system?
Can he fit a timing pass inside the window that a pro game gives him?
Can he effectively take a snap under center, and run effectively run a play-action?
Can he stay in the pocket, and deliver a pass on-time and on-target?
Can he throw a receiver open against tight coverage?
Can he improvise without landing himself on the IR roster?
Don't get me wrong... I had a great time watching him come back against Duke last night.... but Duke ain't the the Pittsburgh Steelers or Baltimore Ravens. .
I'm just not sure how his game translates to the pros. As I see him, he could truly be boom/bust.
I'm not yet sold that the Browns could hang their hopes on someone like him and come out winners in the deal.... and we need to hit on OUR VERY NEXT QB.
I'm no college guy, nor am I some draft guru, but based upon what I saw last night, I'm not convinced that Mr. Football has enough to turn around this franchise's offensive woes.
What could you tell me that would sell him to a skeptic like me?
Just curious,
Clemmy
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Not being sarcastic. There is no way A&M should have won that game the way it started out. If that was a browns game it would have been "same old browns" and the game would have never been close. Manziel kept everyone's head in the game and backed it up by making terrific throws and clutch plays. If you look at the three games over the last three days Manziel was clearly the most accurate of the QBs people were interested in. He's one of those QBs that doesn't have to set his feet to be accurate or get oomph on the ball. Duke is good, but this isn't the best team he's done this against, either. This is more like his MO.
Problem is, I don't think we're going to have a chance to draft him.
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No QB in the history of the NFL has ever busted because of fans or local media.
I disagree. The fans/media are brutal beyond belief and classlessly boo their own players and cheer when they are injured. The media brzenly asks the owners/fo if they are the three stooges/insult them.
There is hardcore hate in this city. It mentally affects the players after a while, especially the QBs who get tore apart weekly in the media.
How many times do you have to be told you suck before you start to believe it?
Is why I wish he would not come here. Cleveland is where QBs come to die.
I think he is a spunky kid and deserves better than Cleveland.
Eve, this is exactly why I've been saying we need two people at HC and QB with some hiss and vinegar in their attitudes. Just enough to get the momentum of what you say flipped in the other direction. Manziel is exactly what we need. We need headstrong people in those positions that just don't give a chit.
Steve, I really hope he is there and we draft him at #4.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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No QB in the history of the NFL has ever busted because of fans or local media.
I disagree. The fans/media are brutal beyond belief and classlessly boo their own players and cheer when they are injured. The media brzenly asks the owners/fo if they are the three stooges/insult them.
There is hardcore hate in this city. It mentally affects the players after a while, especially the QBs who get tore apart weekly in the media.
How many times do you have to be told you suck before you start to believe it?
Is why I wish he would not come here. Cleveland is where QBs come to die.
I think he is a spunky kid and deserves better than Cleveland.
I couldn't disagree with this any more.
Fans are horrible in every city, at least every city where the NFL team matters. Fans are horrible here in Chicago. The kid that let Cobb get behind him is TAKING IT right now.
Cutler has been the subject of fan hate for years.
We give everyone a chance, just like all other fan bases do. When those guys do a horrible job we have fun with it. It's the only thing keeping this fan base together. What, we're supposed to sit, stone-faced and say nothing when this organization trips over its own feet?
Seriously, fans in Philly are horrible, and they just won their division. Are they exempt from this?
Nick Foles is doing a hell of a job. I have a feeling if we had a player like Nick Foles, doing what he's doing, nobody would get on him.
We tell our players that they suck because they do. Does anyone say Joe Thomas sucks? Nope. What player or coach has left here and gone on to do great things?
I hate to break this to some of you, but what you say and what you think about this organization doesn't mean anything.
Fans in San Francisco were threatening a kid's life because he fumbled a football 2 years ago. They're in the playoffs. They exempt too?
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
Yup, and it's hysterical that people think this only happens with Cleveland fans. Fans in other cities just sit on their hands and think "Oh gee willickers, that mark sanchez will come around!"
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Players will succeed in the NFL because they either have so much natural ability, or are so meticulous in their approach/practice/preparation and execution, or a combination of both that they are able to win the individual battle.
'It' is nothing more that an excuse to be used when the answer isn't readily available. Players don't have 'it', what they have is a combination of skills that aren't readily apparent and can not be easily explained.
Personally I don't think Manziel is going to be successful in the NFL unless he does a tremendous amount of work on his mechanics, and suddenly develops pocket presence/awareness. If he doesn't, he'll fizzle out like Tebow did.
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
It seems pretty simple but I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be. I'm not saying Browns fans are better or worse than any other fans but I do believe our epic suckitude has led us to have a shorter fuse than some others.... Odds are, if we were to draft Manziel, that he is going to be somewhere between McCoy and Wilson in his first year... so when he has his ups and downs, how long until you boo him? 3 games? 5 games? How much of your frustration of the last 20 years do you take out on your new first round draft pick QB if he's not immediately successful?
My other thought, the thing that is more damaging than the fans and the media... is the other players. If we draft a guy like Manziel I hope he doesn't have to start right away, but if he does and you start 2-5 and the rest of the team gets that "here we go again" posture about them... that's far more damaging to a young QB than anything the fans or media can do or say...
yebat' Putin
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I'd be totally fine taking Manziel. Guy is exciting as hell to watch. I'm at the point right now with this organization that I just want to have fun watching the games. Wins be damned! lol
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
It seems pretty simple but I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be. I'm not saying Browns fans are better or worse than any other fans but I do believe our epic suckitude has led us to have a shorter fuse than some others.... Odds are, if we were to draft Manziel, that he is going to be somewhere between McCoy and Wilson in his first year... so when he has his ups and downs, how long until you boo him? 3 games? 5 games? How much of your frustration of the last 20 years do you take out on your new first round draft pick QB if he's not immediately successful?
My other thought, the thing that is more damaging than the fans and the media... is the other players. If we draft a guy like Manziel I hope he doesn't have to start right away, but if he does and you start 2-5 and the rest of the team gets that "here we go again" posture about them... that's far more damaging to a young QB than anything the fans or media can do or say...
Yeah, but fans were behind Colt in that first year...
Even a little bit into the second they were behind him. Toward the end of his second year, the relationship went sour. In today's NFL, I think that's fair.
We're not asking that much.
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Yeah, but fans were behind Colt in that first year...
Even a little bit into the second they were behind him. Toward the end of his second year, the relationship went sour. In today's NFL, I think that's fair.
We're not asking that much.
I guess we will just have to disagree then... Two years under two different systems, his best receiving options were an aging Ben Watson and then a converted running back with poor hands in Greg Little.... his first year he had Hillis running the ball, his second he had a completely different Hillis running the ball.... all on a team that had won 4 or 5 games for a couple years in a row.... Now I'm not saying Colt McCoy would have turned into anything more than he is if we had paved his parking spot in gold and rolled out the red carpet... but considering what he walked into, I will say that less than about 10 starts in, people were booing.. in my opinion, that's too soon.
yebat' Putin
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Yeah, but fans were behind Colt in that first year...
Even a little bit into the second they were behind him. Toward the end of his second year, the relationship went sour. In today's NFL, I think that's fair.
We're not asking that much.
I guess we will just have to disagree then... Two years under two different systems, his best receiving options were an aging Ben Watson and then a converted running back with poor hands in Greg Little.... his first year he had Hillis running the ball, his second he had a completely different Hillis running the ball.... all on a team that had won 4 or 5 games for a couple years in a row.... Now I'm not saying Colt McCoy would have turned into anything more than he is if we had paved his parking spot in gold and rolled out the red carpet... but considering what he walked into, I will say that less than about 10 starts in, people were booing.. in my opinion, that's too soon.
Myself, I was never that hard on him, because he was what he was. Your typical round 3 QB.
I came around on him in that second year when he got worse with his pocket presence and started running into sacks...
He put himself into danger a lot more than QB's should, he didn't read defenses well at all, and his arm was less than stellar...
Again, I wasn't expecting Peyton Manning, I just felt like he wasn't getting better, and had no problem with them trying someone else. Then of course Brandon Weeden happened.
I thought fans were fair with him though, agree to disagree.
We were fair with Weeden as well, he gave us very little in season 1, and in season 2, we were all behind him until a few games in when it became clear he wasn't an NFL quarterback. New system or not, that scheme was designed for a QB with a good arm to be successful. His failures are on himself.
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Not being sarcastic. There is no way A&M should have won that game the way it started out. If that was a browns game it would have been "same old browns" and the game would have never been close. Manziel kept everyone's head in the game and backed it up by making terrific throws and clutch plays. If you look at the three games over the last three days Manziel was clearly the most accurate of the QBs people were interested in. He's one of those QBs that doesn't have to set his feet to be accurate or get oomph on the ball. Duke is good, but this isn't the best team he's done this against, either. This is more like his MO.
Problem is, I don't think we're going to have a chance to draft him.
Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure how to take your stand alone comment either.
I tend to agree and why I think we need to move up to #2, then we know we have our choice of at least our top two QB prospects. If we sit at 4, I am afraid we might not even get our top 3, though that would mean we could parlay Clowney in to something good.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I am afraid we might not even get our top 3, though that would mean we could parlay Clowney in to something good.
I would just take Clowney if that happened. Did we get a top QB in the Draft? No, but we came away with arguably the best Draft prospect. Not a bad consolation, IMO.
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What do you do with Clowney then...? We're kind of overloaded on D-linemen no matter which scheme we run.
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If we stick with a 3-4 then consider Barr. I think that he will be a tremendous 3-4 OLB.
I think that I would still prefer to trade down.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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What do you do with Clowney then...? We're kind of overloaded on D-linemen no matter which scheme we run.
Clowney would be an Upgrade. So I would get rid of someone else by either cut or trade if I could make it happen.
Trade down if we get a lot would be fine but I think I'd prefer to keep Clowney, I think he is going to be a very good player.
Edit:
I'd also like to add that for the vast majority of the season it appeared we could get no Pressure on opposing QB's. We still need a guy that can disrupt the backfield. I still want to go QB because it is a need but if we stay at 4 and Bridgewater, Bortles and Manziel are gone then Clowney would be a great pick.
Last edited by FreeAgent; 01/02/14 01:23 PM.
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All I can say is, he sure did a helluva job the other day.. wow
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
Yup, and it's hysterical that people think this only happens with Cleveland fans. Fans in other cities just sit on their hands and think "Oh gee willickers, that mark sanchez will come around!"
I live in Atlanta. The falcons have had a craptastic season. Yet here, there is no where the amount of venom in the media/fan base. 
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What do you do with Clowney then...? We're kind of overloaded on D-linemen no matter which scheme we run.
You can't have too much talent... Clowney looks like a game changer and though I think we have a deep and talented front 7, I don't see much game changing there...
yebat' Putin
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
Yup, and it's hysterical that people think this only happens with Cleveland fans. Fans in other cities just sit on their hands and think "Oh gee willickers, that mark sanchez will come around!"
I live in Atlanta. The falcons have had a craptastic season. Yet here, there is no where the amount of venom in the media/fan base.
Let them suck for the better part of 13years and then see if you can say the same.
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
Yup, and it's hysterical that people think this only happens with Cleveland fans. Fans in other cities just sit on their hands and think "Oh gee willickers, that mark sanchez will come around!"
I live in Atlanta. The falcons have had a craptastic season. Yet here, there is no where the amount of venom in the media/fan base.
Let them suck for the better part of 13years and then see if you can say the same.
Even if they did suck, all that would happen is people would stop caring. They wouldn't have a constant meltdown and throw the team/coaches under the bus every chance they get.
People here are a lot more mature about their sports teams.
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
Yup, and it's hysterical that people think this only happens with Cleveland fans. Fans in other cities just sit on their hands and think "Oh gee willickers, that mark sanchez will come around!"
I live in Atlanta. The falcons have had a craptastic season. Yet here, there is no where the amount of venom in the media/fan base.
You live in the south, people have manners. You also live where a team has given people hope, they sucked this year, not since 99..
#GMSTRONG
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
Yup, and it's hysterical that people think this only happens with Cleveland fans. Fans in other cities just sit on their hands and think "Oh gee willickers, that mark sanchez will come around!"
I live in Atlanta. The falcons have had a craptastic season. Yet here, there is no where the amount of venom in the media/fan base.
Let them suck for the better part of 13years and then see if you can say the same.
Even if they did suck, all that would happen is people would stop caring. They wouldn't have a constant meltdown and throw the team/coaches under the bus every chance they get.
People here are a lot more mature about their sports teams.
That's your opinion, I disagree with it.
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
Yup, and it's hysterical that people think this only happens with Cleveland fans. Fans in other cities just sit on their hands and think "Oh gee willickers, that mark sanchez will come around!"
I live in Atlanta. The falcons have had a craptastic season. Yet here, there is no where the amount of venom in the media/fan base.
You live in the south, people have manners. You also live where a team has given people hope, they sucked this year, not since 99..
The falcons are not always good. Typically they are kind of average. They haven't been world beaters by any stretch of the imagination.
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Winning cures everything. You don't want fans to boo you? Then stop sucking.
If Johnny Manziel comes here and looks like Colt McCoy 2.0 then fans will be upset and boo. If he looks like Russel Wilson 2.0 and takes us to the playoffs then fans will cheer. It's a pretty simple formula.
Yup, and it's hysterical that people think this only happens with Cleveland fans. Fans in other cities just sit on their hands and think "Oh gee willickers, that mark sanchez will come around!"
I live in Atlanta. The falcons have had a craptastic season. Yet here, there is no where the amount of venom in the media/fan base.
You live in the south, people have manners. You also live where a team has given people hope, they sucked this year, not since 99..
The falcons are not always good. Typically they are kind of average. They haven't been world beaters by any stretch of the imagination.
The really sad part about that, "kind of average", would be a an upgrade for Browns fans.
#GMSTRONG
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You live in the south, people have manners. You also live where a team has given people hope, they sucked this year, not since 99..
If you think they have manners, you have never been to a college football game in the south... or a HS football game for that matter.
But you have hit on the root of what I believe to be the problem.... Browns fans are taking 20 years of frustration out on an owner, a coach, a QB, that has only been here 1 or 2 years.... Not only that, they are indirectly fueled by the Jose Meza bounced pitch, LeBron leaving, Modell moving a team that was winning and had the best NFL coach of the last 15 years at the helm, and OSU getting beat up by any number of SEC teams... it's all rolled together in one big giant ball of frustration... and it gets directed at the scape-goat-du-jour, who is usually the Browns QB and coach.
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Legend
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Posts: 17,027 |
Yeah, Atlanta was JUST in the playoffs, has a franchise QB, and also Atlanta isn't NFL crazy.... That's not a great sports town. When the Falcons suck , I think people just don't watch.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,438 |
Quote:
Quote:
You live in the south, people have manners. You also live where a team has given people hope, they sucked this year, not since 99..
If you think they have manners, you have never been to a college football game in the south... or a HS football game for that matter.
But you have hit on the root of what I believe to be the problem.... Browns fans are taking 20 years of frustration out on an owner, a coach, a QB, that has only been here 1 or 2 years.... Not only that, they are indirectly fueled by the Jose Meza bounced pitch, LeBron leaving, Modell moving a team that was winning and had the best NFL coach of the last 15 years at the helm, and OSU getting beat up by any number of SEC teams... it's all rolled together in one big giant ball of frustration... and it gets directed at the scape-goat-du-jour, who is usually the Browns QB and coach.
I mostly agree with this.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,252
Legend
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Legend
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Even if they did suck, all that would happen is people would stop caring. They wouldn't have a constant meltdown and throw the team/coaches under the bus every chance they get.
People here are a lot more mature about their sports teams.
You see it that way. I see that as they have far less passion about their team so they don't even see it as worthy of their emotions.
And actually, in this case, it's more about standing up for a HC we thought was fired pre maturely.
Actually it's about expecting this FO to live up to what they told the fans about continuity.
So while you see a fan base in Atlanta as being "mature" because they don't care how their team is run, or whether the people running the team is being honest to them, I don't see that as anything positive at all.
I guess it's about ones perspective. I admire passion and abhor apathy.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Well, if you want to call being excessively bitter, classless, and vengeful as being passionate, well have fun with that.
Not the kind of passion I enjoy watching or being part of.
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Legend
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Quote:
Well, if you want to call being excessively bitter, classless, and vengeful as being passionate, well have fun with that.
Not the kind of passion I enjoy watching or being part of.
It's not just some fans that are "bitter, classless, and vengeful". It's not even just the local media.
Get this: SI, NFL network, the boston globe, and cbs sports are all saying negative things about the situation in cleveland, and who the browns are after. The link is one of the other threads where dolts are calling those of us that disagree with them "bitter, angry, classless..........." etc.
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Of course they are saying bad things about Cleveland. The situation is pretty bad.
Anyways, I give up on this debate. I have to do work now.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Well, if you want to call being excessively bitter, classless, and vengeful as being passionate, well have fun with that.
Not the kind of passion I enjoy watching or being part of.
I've been in Atlanta a lot. Lived very close to it at one time. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be.
When we're lied to and stabbed in the back, we react strongly. My family is from the south. Actually that's where I get rebel attitude from.
Does the Civil War ring a bell?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Right. Where did I say that being in the South had anything to do with anything. I'm talking about the maturity of fans in Atlanta because that happens to be where I live.
I probably could live in any other city in any other state that has a mediocre football team and make the same statement that fans/media there don't have ridiculous meltdowns constantly.
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Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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-JC-
We are talking about Cleveland Here, a Football Town. The HOF of Football is an hour ride south of the city. We love our football here. Our team was taken from us, we called and disrupted the NFL office to give us a team and they did.
Since getting our team back in 1999 we have had 2 winning seasons and only 1 playoff appearance that was a first round loss.
At the start of the 2014 season we will be on our 7th coach. 15 years 7 coaches. A Little over 2 years per coach.
Since going 10-6 in 2007 (our last winning record) we have gone
2008 - 4-12 <--Fired Coach
2009 - 5-11
2010 - 5-11 <--Fired Coach
2011 - 4-12
2012 - 5-11 <--Fired Coach
2013 - 4-12 <--Fired Coach
That's 27-69 in 6 seasons with 4 coaches.
Oh, while all of that was going on the Stadium still sold out, might of had many no shows but the tickets were sold.
I think fans have a right to be angry. JMO.
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