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And this I disagree with Quote:
00- 1 Pennington- pretty much a bust
Before his shoulder injury Pennington was money, even soon after that......
He's definitely the better than any QB we've had since we've come back. I don't like calling Pennington a bust. I thought he was a pretty good QB
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Quote:
So we can't draft a QB in the 1st because we've had ones fail before?
So we also can't draft one in the 3rd, RB, WR or TE in the first
Can't draft D Lineman in the first either.. or OLBs or DEs.
Wow. We really can't draft anyone anywhere. Based on your logic.
what the?
Thanks for trying to dismiss/twist the information I looked up. It basically proves why you don't rush a first round QB into the starting role in the NFL.
I based my information on the NFL (not the Cleveland Browns) drafting QB's in the first round.. Drafting a QB in later rounds or not intending to start your first round pick their first year produces much better results. ***Unless of course, you get the first pick in the draft and that QB is the clear cut best player in the draft.
I don't have time to look up data on other positions, teams, or players. I'm sure that information would reveal more telling info.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Quote:
And this I disagree with
Quote:
00- 1 Pennington- pretty much a bust
Before his shoulder injury Pennington was money, even soon after that......
He's definitely the better than any QB we've had since we've come back. I don't like calling Pennington a bust. I thought he was a pretty good QB
ok my bad... He was a disappointment from an injury standpoint.
he didn't start his first game until the 5th game of 2002 and wasn't named the starter until 2003
and it strengthens my point even further.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Nice work,, and I'm all for it.. Unless you get a guy like either of the Mannings or Luck, you gotta think in terms of letting them grow into it.
You should all remember, Kosar didn't start right away either.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Its also not the 80s anymore.
The time a QB needs to sit and learn is dwindling.
I will say a guy will learn more by doing than by standing there watching somone else do it.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Its also not the 80s anymore.
The time a QB needs to sit and learn is dwindling.
I will say a guy will learn more by doing than by standing there watching somone else do it.
again... the info I provided was from 1998 and sooner.
you are also correct. they can learn it by doing it in practice and leading the scout teams.
Consider also that Offenses are vastly more complex than they were 10-15 years ago. The learning curve is dramatically longer than it was before. I can't imagine how long it would take before a QB truly knew where all of his targets were going to be on the field for every play. I'd guess at 2-3 years in the same system.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Yeah. So sitting him a year pushes that baxk to 3-4.
If we get one of the top 3 I do not see a scenario in which they don't start opening day.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
Its also not the 80s anymore.
The time a QB needs to sit and learn is dwindling.
I will say a guy will learn more by doing than by standing there watching somone else do it.
again... the info I provided was from 1998 and sooner.
you are also correct. they can learn it by doing it in practice and leading the scout teams.
A few weeks ago I think, this subject came up. I said that we made a terriblel mistake by starting Couch in the second game of the season.
That the intent was to have him sit behind Detmer and learn before being thrown into the fire.
Somebody, I don't remember who kinda shot me down by saying that Detmer got injured and couldn't play which is why they put Couch in for the second game (remember, we got beat something like 43 to 0 against the Steelers on opening day)
I called it a panic PR move by the FO.
Well after the poster telling me that Detmer got injured in that first game, I shut up because I didn't have time to look it up.. My memory said one thing, But I had a respected poster telling me I was wrong.. I was not wrong. (I hope the poster that told me that will stand up)
Here's the truth:
Quote:
Cleveland Browns
Detmer was traded to the Cleveland Browns in 1999; the Browns wanted him to mentor rookie quarterback Tim Couch. Detmer started the first game of the 1999 season, then served as backup until Couch sprained his foot in week 15. He started the final game of the 1999 season.[6] Detmer injured his right Achilles and was inactive the entire 2000 season.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ty_Detmer
It wasn't until 2000 that Detmer got injured. NOT during the first Steerlers game of 1999. Our first game back.
They panicked like I said and in the process, they ruined a kid that had potential.
Having said that, I have to wonder, had Couch been allowed to learn and grow and pick up some tricks from Detmer (who was a pretty smart guy), could the result have been better? (think gary danielson and bernie kosar)
I'd say there is a better than even chance that it could have worked out better for him. As it was, he got clobbered and I think he got totally gun shy..
SO, I'm sticking with my thought that if we get someone not as polished as one of the Mannings or Luck, or other sure fire guys from previous drafts (and there doesn't seem to be one of those in this draft) then if you have the luxury to let him sit and learn, you do it.
Some of the best QB's drafted since 2000 have sat for some period of time.
Let me repeat, if you have the luxury to let a guy sit, DO IT. Don't panic, do not give in to the impulse to put the new guy out there for PR purposes. Have the stones to make a plan and stick to it. Don't ruin a kid.
Now, if the guy you hoped would allow the young guy to grow gets hurts or just flat out sucks, different story., you gotta have a QB out there. Either the new kid or another vet of some note.
But that's also why I want to have 3 QB's. A Hoyer type, another Vet of some note and the rookie you think might be your future.
There is another scenario that needs brought up.,, if we draft a kid and give him a fair shot of winning the starting job and he does, then I think that's a horse of a different color.. Maybe you got lucky and found your next Russel Wilson?
You gotta have the stones to put him in and stick by your decision if he falters a bit.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Palmer was actually the guy who chose to start Couch.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
and it strengthens my point even further.
Your point is nonsensical. You are bucking the majority and I am cool w/that, but you aren't using sound, logical thinking in your argument. You had Luck as the 18th best qb or some BS like that. Stat boy.
I bet you haven't broken down a bit of film on any of these qbs. Your evaluations look like they were formulated by looking at the sizes of these guys, some stats, a couple of articles, and the need to be different, with an emphasis on the last item.
There is nothing wrong w/any of that, other than the fact that you are so vociferous in your argument and so adamant that you are right and others are wrong.
Give it a rest. You are making yourself look foolish again.
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Quote:
Quote:
and it strengthens my point even further.
Your point is nonsensical.
yep
You are bucking the majority and I am cool w/that, but you aren't using sound, logical thinking in your argument.
yep
You had Luck as the 18th best qb or some BS like that.
yep
Stat boy.
yep
I bet you haven't broken down a bit of film on any of these qbs.
yep
Your evaluations look like they were formulated by looking at the sizes of these guys, some stats, a couple of articles, and the need to be different, with an emphasis on the last item.
yep
There is nothing wrong w/any of that, other than the fact that you are so vociferous in your argument and so adamant that you are right and others are wrong.
yep
Give it a rest.
yep
You are making yourself look foolish again.
yep
Anything else? 
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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j/c
There just are no absolutes that can be relied on for this decision. Players have to compete and the coaches have to use their analytically and intuitive skills to make the best decision that they can make. Dare I say it, the odds are like a coin toss. What has happened on all the historical tosses of the coin do not affect the odds on the current toss. This starting QB decision is its own unique event that has to be made based on all of the contemporaneous data about the QB candidates for the Browns. Not in the least based on what has happened for any other team at any other time.
Last edited by guard dawg; 02/06/14 10:56 PM.
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Nah, that's it for now. 
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J/C ...... I'll ask again, since it seems that my question has been lost in the other stuff on this thread ......
OK QB gurus .......
Given that Manziel is only 5;11" (maybe), the concerns most have for shot QBs exist with him as they do with others.
One of the biggest problems for most young QBs is pressure right up the middle. They struggle to then find lanes to throw through. Too many young QBs run around in a helter skelter manner when they are pressured quickly and heavily.
How is Manziel at handling that pressure right up the middle? How does he do when the defense defense gets right in his face? Does he immediately break to run, or does he hang in the pocket to find a receiver? Is he strictly a roll out guy, or can he do as Brees and Wilson, 2 of the best short QBs do, and slide to find throwing lanes and see the field without having to bail out of the pocket?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Palmer was actually the guy who chose to start Couch.
That is not the way I remember it. In fact, sometime after he was fired, he stated that he was told to start Couch...
I'll try to find it but damn, we're talking 12 years ago or so..,
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Its also not the 80s anymore.
The time a QB needs to sit and learn is dwindling.
I will say a guy will learn more by doing than by standing there watching somone else do it.
I agree. Unless they are walking into an absolutely horrible situation like Tim Couch did, they are better off playing.. and we aren't that bad. Our new QB will be walking into a situation with a decent OL, the best LT in the game, a pro-bowl WR and TE... lots going for him. Not a perfect situation, but not one that is going to scar him forever if he's any good.
yebat' Putin
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j/c
There just are no absolutes that can be relied on for this decision. Players have to compete and the coaches have to use their analytically and intuitive skills to make the best decision that they can make. Dare I say it, the odds are like a coin toss. What has happened on all the historical tosses of the coin do not affect the odds on the current toss. This starting QB decision is its own unique event that has to be made based on all of the contemporaneous data about the QB candidates for the Browns. Not in the least based on what has happened for any other team at any other time.
Because the Browns are such a model of success since 1999? How about we model other teams that had success drafting a QB in the first round?
Maybe this will help with having data...
It appears that if you don't put your QB in a situation to succeed... he probably won't make the team better. First you have to have a solid base before you can install a young QB.
since 1998 there have been 41 QB's taken in the first round
98-2 - Manning Ryan Leaf
99 5- McNabb Culpeper couch Akili Smith Cade McNown
00- 1 Pennington-
01- 1 Mike Vick- who knows how to rate this pick- solid?
02- 3- all three were busts (harrington, carr, Ramsey)
03- 4 taken Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman,
04. 4 taken Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers JP Lossman Ben Roethlisberger
05 3 taken Jason Campbell Aaron Rodgers Alex Smith
06- 3 taken Vince Young, Matt Leinhart, Jay Cutler,
07 - 2 taken Jamarcus Russel Brady Quinn
08- 2 taken Matt Ryan Joe Flacco,
09 - 3 taken stafford mark sanchez Josh Freeman
10- 2 taken Sam Bradford Tim Tebow
11 4 taken Cam Newton Jake Locker Blaine Gabbert Christian Ponder
12 4 taken Andew Luck RG3 Ryan Tannehill Bradon Weeden
13 1 taken Ej Mannuel
If you break that down. 17 were good/great 3 undecided.
Peyton Manning- Indy colts were 9-7 in 95 and 96. solid team to install a QB wheels came off for one year
McNabb, *he made that team better the team sucked for a few years prior to him
Culpepper- Minny was an above .500 team prior to them drafting him 1990
Pennington, didn't start right away however the team hadn't had a losing season since 1996
Mike Vick, atl pretty much sucked prior
Carson Palmer Kitna handed over an 8-8 team
Eli Manning, Giants were all over the place. Manning made the team better
Phillip Rivers, thank Drew Brees he handed over a 9-7 team and a 12-4 team the previous years
Ben Worthless- Steelers were 13-3 in 01 and 10-5 in 02.
Aaron Rodgers sat behind Farve for years
Alex Smith, took over the team and they flopped for years. wasn't in a good situation
Jay Cutler, took over from Jake the Snake. after the Bronco's were 9-7 and 13-3 the previous years
Matt Ryan thank Mike VIck for his start and put on a team with one bad year
Joe Flacco, took over a team that was 5-11 and 13-3. he made them better
Sam Bradford, took over from a terrible team and they haven't been a .500 team since he was drafted
Cam Newton, one down year took over from a team that had one bad season and previously was 8-8 and 12-4 7-9 an 8-8 11-5.
Luck--- Indy had one bad season where they didn't finish .500 since 2001
Undecided:
RG3
Tannehill
Jake Locker
3-4 QB's out of that group made the team better.
Vick
McNabb
Flacco- kinda (he's the tweener)
Eli Manning
Smith and Bradford struggled big time.
out of the 41 QB's 17 were good and if you leave the 3 undecided in... and add that you have 20..
that's a 48% chance.
However, If you install a first round QB on a team that: had a solid base, had one down season, sat for a season or two or team played at a .500ish level previously your chances of success go up to.....
a little over 70%. with a margin of error because of the 2 unknown (locker 9-7 and 6-10, 8-8 and tanny 11-5,7-9. 7-9 6-10 were on drafted onto decent teams) worse case 64% best case 79%
*if my math is right you have about a 10-12% chance of drafting a QB and having them turn the team around after years of failure. (RG3 was drafted onto a bad team )
but hey... let's keep drafting QB's on a team that can't win more than 6 games in a season since 2007 so we can enjoy a QB like Bradford or Alex Smith or the other 21 QB's that didn't make it far.
sounds like fun.
#statsareforlosers
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Well if were going by how everyone else does it.
We should sign a QB in FA. Draft someone in the 3rd round and start them. And well win the SB in two years.
Because obviously if we do it the same exact way as someone else. We can expect the same results right?
Its all just stats really..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
Sit behind Hoyer and learn what? We don't entirely know what we have in Hoyer!
Draft a guy planning for him to win the job and start.
No more could be, should be or he might develop in a few years.
Learn for the QB/OC coach how to play in this offense, learn the calls, learn how to train and develop into a QB in the NFL.
Both guys would be coming in knowing nothing about Shannys O. Dead heat coming in to camp.
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Because the Browns are such a model of success since 1999? How about we model other teams that had success drafting a QB in the first round?
Maybe this will help with having data...
It appears that if you don't put your QB in a situation to succeed... he probably won't make the team better. First you have to have a solid base before you can install a young QB.
My input was intended to neither support nor contest any particular posters preference. You've made it clear that you married to the idea of using statistical analysis as the basis for deciding when a QB should play. I get that. My positions is that it's useful but its not the sole basis for making such a decision. That's the crux of what I was saying. You apparently disagree, based on your exhaustive response to me.
Maybe this will better illustrate my point of view. If the Browns are lucky enough to take Bridgewater or Manziel those players are likely to display enough to earn early insertion at the QB position. If its Bortels or Carr there is a greater chance they would need time to get ready. Granted Bridgewater and Manziel both have flaws but both possess enough decision making, accuracy and pocket presence that should aid their development. Bortles has accuracy and footwork issues that will need to be overcome. Carr is often affected by pressure that changes his mechanics and that has to be resolved before he can be a competitive starter. In the case of the latter two that equals time.
This decision is as much art as science.
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Quote:
Both guys would be coming in knowing nothing about Shannys O. Dead heat coming in to camp.
This is not true. While Hoyer cannot communicate with Shanahan about football, he knows what team he will be on. During an interview Hoyer said that he will have the Browns video staff make a cutup of every snap Shanahan's offense has taken. While this is a not a playbook, it will give Hoyer an idea as to what Shanahan likes to do. Hoyer has also played with many of the players that will be on the offense.
Also, off-season workouts for teams begin on April 7th. The draft is not till May 8th.
Manziel does not know what team he will be on and can't focus all of his attention on one system. He has to know bits and pieces of everything so that he can go into meetings knowing he is talking about. Hoyer will be well ahead of him.
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Cleveland Browns' OC Kyle Shanahan on Johnny Manziel: 'Who wouldn't like him?' http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/02/cleveland_browns_oc_kyle_shana_2.htmlBy Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on February 06, 2014 at 9:24 PM, updated February 07, 2014 at 7:13 AM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns offensive coordinate Kyle Shanahan gushed over Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel, whom the Browns are reportedly very high in the NFL draft. But he also really likes Browns veteran Brian Hoyer, who's proven he can win in the NFL. "I (like) what I've seen of (Manziel) on (ESPN's) SportsCenter,'' Shanahan told 92.3 The Fan's Bull and Fox after his introductory press conference Thursday. "I haven't sat and studied him, but who wouldn't like him? He's fun to watch, he makes plays, and he's as much of a playmaker as I've seen on SportsCenter as anybody. "I'm going to get started here pretty fast here and actually maybe even this afternoon starting to watch these college guys. We've been sitting here trying to put our staff together for the three days I've been here. (But I'm) trying to mix in watching our own players and I've got to get the college players in quickly because we're going down to (Indianapolis) in a couple of weeks (for the Combine). But I've got to get looking at the quarterbacks first and foremost. Shanahan acknowledged that studying Johnny Football will be one of his top priorities. The Browns have the No. 4 and No. 26 picks in the first round, and are poised to draft a quarterback in the first round if they identify a franchise quarterback in the bunch. "I'll (start) at the top of the draft and I know (Manziel's) up there,'' Shanahan said. "Our personnel department brings me a list and I've enjoyed what I've seen on SportsCenter, so I can't wait to see the coaches' copy.'' Asked if he thinks Manziel's skills, including elusive running ability, will translate to the NFL, Shanahan -- who coached dual-threat Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III in his first two seasons -- said, "of course. When you have that much success in college, you're not going against some bad players. When you're that big of a playmaker, you're going to be able to make some plays in the NFL too.'' He said Manziel's lack of height -- he's listed at 6-1 but might be closer to 6-0 -- won't be a deterrent. He cited the success of shorter quarterbacks Drew Brees (6-0) of the Saints and Russell Wilson (5-11) of the Seahawks, who have both won Super Bowls. "Everybody wants the prototypical receiver, the prototypical quarterback, the prototypical tackle, but no matter what you say, there's no absolute,'' he said. "People have succeeded at every height and speed, everybody's done it. Russell just adds another guy to prove those people who speak in absolutes wrong just like Drew Brees has. You've got to look at what a guy is. You never say this guy can't do it because of this.'' He said he'll have input in evaluating the rookie quarterbacks, but that management will make the decision. "And I think they're going to make the right one,'' he said. "We're going to look at every single option, we're going to take everything into account, we're going to study the heck out of every single option possible and you don't just take a guy early in the draft because you need a quarterback. It can really set you back if you miss on one. You have to make sure the decision you make is the right decision. You want to make sure that guy is a franchise quarterback, and if he's not, you might have to go in a different direction.'' Shanahan also had high praise for Hoyer, whom he's studied since Hoyer came out of Michigan State in 2009 and signed with New England as an undrafted free agent. "I think (fans) should be excited, because Brian has shown reasons to be excited,'' Shanahan said. "The jury's still out on what his ceiling is. If you aren't that franchise quarterback, it's a matter of time before they're trying to replace you, and you don't really know whether Brian's capable of that or not. "He's got to get more playing time. Obviously there's not enough NFL tape to decide that, but what he has shown is that you can win with him. I understand why the Cleveland fans are excited about him. I've always liked him coming out of school and I've liked him every year he's been up for free agency. I look forward to getting a chance to know him more, getting a chance to work with him and we'll see how good he is.'' (end)
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Quote:
but hey... let's keep drafting QB's on a team that can't win more than 6 games in a season since 2007 so we can enjoy a QB like Bradford or Alex Smith or the other 21 QB's that didn't make it far.
sounds like fun.
I think I'm reading you correctly? You sound like one of those guys that thinks you need to build the team first, then add the missing piece in a QB?
Follow this bouncing ball.
There are 5 positions on any team that GM's around the league would virtually unanimously say you need to have filled before you become anything of relevance.
QB is #1 on that list. Do we have one? NO.
LT. Check
#1 WR. Check (Anyone (Toad) doubting Gordon has their head in the sand)
DE 4-3 Pass Rusher 3-4. Check
#1 CB. Check
The 4 "Checks" right there are why we are a QB away from challenging for the Division on a yearly basis. You heard that right. A QB away.
Take your list and look back to see exactly what team had any of those 4 positions solidified when they were drafted. Their success rate is tied directly to those 4 positions.
We would be a 9-12 win team RIGHT NOW if we had any semblence of a REAL QB on this team.
Go get the QB THIS YEAR.
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Quote:
J/C ...... I'll ask again, since it seems that my question has been lost in the other stuff on this thread ......
OK QB gurus .......
Given that Manziel is only 5;11" (maybe), the concerns most have for shot QBs exist with him as they do with others.
One of the biggest problems for most young QBs is pressure right up the middle. They struggle to then find lanes to throw through. Too many young QBs run around in a helter skelter manner when they are pressured quickly and heavily.
How is Manziel at handling that pressure right up the middle? How does he do when the defense defense gets right in his face? Does he immediately break to run, or does he hang in the pocket to find a receiver? Is he strictly a roll out guy, or can he do as Brees and Wilson, 2 of the best short QBs do, and slide to find throwing lanes and see the field without having to bail out of the pocket?
A few things:
--I think he is listed as 6'1". That means he is probably around 6 ft, but probably not 5'11". I know it's not a big deal, but if we keep up w/this, he'll soon be 5'4".
--I think ALL QBs struggle w/pressure up the middle, not just young QBs. Look at Peyton Manning. He falls apart when pressured up the gut. His footwork goes to hell and he makes poor off balance throws that are inaccurate.
--I think Manziel is more Wilson than Brees. Drew Brees blows my mind in the pocket. The guy actually stands on his tip toes to see over the DL. LOL.......one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen. I am not sure how he maintains his accuracy and can throw w/strength like that.
Manziel has many of the same moves that Wilson has. The real positive about both guys is that they keep their eyes downfield while buying time. Other guys drop their heads and run once they start moving. Teddy Bridgewater does a better job of this than either Wilson or Manziel, but the latter two are still effective at it.
--I don't think the inside pressure will be as much of a problem for Manziel as it is for guys like Weeden and Carr. Weeden had a ton of balls batted down, took needless sacks, became inaccurate, and checked down way too early. Carr falls apart when pressured and is already the master of the check down and I don't want him under any circumstances.
--Manziel has some legit question marks. I just don't think this is one of them.
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Two concerns that I have about Manziel when he detects pressure. One is his tendency to escape out of the back of the pocket with a curl move where he does a 360. I think NFL OLBs and DEs will be better able to counter that. Game-to-game the speed at those positions is better than he faced on the college level. This is primarily a tackle for loss concern.
The second concern is when he escapes right up the middle of the pocket. Attempting that consistently against NFL fronts will get him planted under +300 lbs linemen. This is a risk of serious injury concern.
I looked at the LSU, Alabama and Missouri games. Johnny does move around the pocket in an unorthodox but effective way to allow him to find open receivers and deliver a catchable ball.
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Yes, those are two concerns.
Wilson also uses the escaping out of the back of the pocket by doing a 360 a lot. My concern w/Manziel is that he did it too early on occasions.
I agree w/your second point.
My other concern is that he threw too many picks this year.
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First off the NFL speed is a myth when compared to SEC speed. I know people are gonna rip that comment but its true. College is younger and faster but the difference is size, strength and technique. Your 285 lb college DT is faster than your NFL 340lb DT, difference is in that impact when a guy like Big Phil or Suh lands on u. You may see a guy like that 4 or 5 times a year in the SEC. In the NFL, you are gonna see that kind of monster, at least 14 out of 16 games.
College you have 220 lb linebackers. NFL you have 270 lb linebackers. They may not be as fast but we are back to impact.
I think he will have greater runs in the NFL but he will have to learn how not to get himself creamed out there lol.
Anyway Browns desperately need Manziels excitement and leadership. He may not be the best QB in this class but I do feel he is the best QB for the Browns to turn this thing around.
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In the NFL the offenses for the most part are about execution of set plays.
Three step, five step, seven step drops where the receivers are into patterns accordingly. The ball is thrown from the pocket.
Manziel in college made his magic from broken plays where containment was lost and receivers came open. Looks great and is fun to watch.
The pros will pinch the pocket from the outside and try to make Manziel throw from inside the pocket. He has great escapability and will force the issue to extend plays.
Not sure that will be a good thing or not in the AFC North.
The Steelers and the Ravens have dominated the division for a long time. They have done so with very strong defenses and power run games. It is not like they don't throw the ball but their base game is pretty straight forward.
Manziel's game, his strengths to me are better suited in other places not Cleveland. I do not think Manziel is the right guy for every team. He may very well succeed but I believe he needs to be in the right place with the right coaching to be successful.
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Nah, guys like Big Ben, Wilson, Rodgers, Luck, etc all make a ton of plays outside the pocket. I think the guys who simply stand in the pocket are a dying breed.
I also think that Manziel's ability to elude the pass rush would help in the NFC North. Better that, than a sitting target like Weeden was.
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Ah I understand your position much better now Mourg it is closer to mine as well.
Bridgewater is likely going to be the better QB. But I could certainly see the argument that Manziel is a better candidate for turning a franchise around in terms of excitement, leadership, charisma, big plays etc.
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Quote:
"Everybody wants the prototypical receiver, the prototypical quarterback, the prototypical tackle, but no matter what you say, there's no absolute,'' he said. "People have succeeded at every height and speed, everybody's done it. Russell just adds another guy to prove those people who speak in absolutes wrong just like Drew Brees has. You've got to look at what a guy is. You never say this guy can't do it because of this.''
There it is in a nutshell..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Look, mobility and the ability to improvise out of chaos are good things "when need dictates". I love it when you have a quarterback that on third and eight can tuck it and run for the first down. The guys you mentioned can do that.
Manziel's game so far in college is different. He looks to run. It's part of what he does. The guys you referred too protect themselves. They slide. They show awareness and vision looking to pass first.
I really do not see Manziel's game being similar to those guys. He has a unique skill set that worked at Texas A&M. I really questioned that the way he played will work for very long in the NFL.
As I stated it may given the right situation.
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"First off the NFL speed is a myth when compared to SEC speed."
=======================================================
Approximately 7% of eligible college players get drafted. Those players then have to compete with everyone else on the roster, plus any undrafted college free agents (that is, players who weren’t drafted but are still offered the chance to try to make the roster), plus any other veterans or players from other leagues the team might want to check out, just to make it onto the Week 1 roster.
The pro game is the cream of the crop. In general they are bigger, faster and stronger at all positions.
In college you have blob linemen on both sides of the ball that simply are not fast or quick enough to make a pro roster.
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Quote:
In the NFL the offenses for the most part are about execution of set plays.
Three step, five step, seven step drops where the receivers are into patterns accordingly. The ball is thrown from the pocket.
Manziel in college made his magic from broken plays where containment was lost and receivers came open. Looks great and is fun to watch.
The pros will pinch the pocket from the outside and try to make Manziel throw from inside the pocket. He has great escapability and will force the issue to extend plays.
Not sure that will be a good thing or not in the AFC North.
The Steelers and the Ravens have dominated the division for a long time. They have done so with very strong defenses and power run games. It is not like they don't throw the ball but their base game is pretty straight forward.
Manziel's game, his strengths to me are better suited in other places not Cleveland. I do not think Manziel is the right guy for every team. He may very well succeed but I believe he needs to be in the right place with the right coaching to be successful.
I know it's just stats but I read Manziel was actually more effective from inside the pocket. His QBR was better. Take that as you may but while his highlight plays come outside the pocket he is a very effective pocket QB as well.
ESPN
While this isn't the article I was referring to Johnny had a 73% completion from the pocket(best in NCAA). He also was the best deep ball QB with 47.7% and 7-1 TD-Int past 25 yards.
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Quote:
In the NFL the offenses for the most part are about execution of set plays.
Three step, five step, seven step drops where the receivers are into patterns accordingly. The ball is thrown from the pocket.
Manziel in college made his magic from broken plays where containment was lost and receivers came open. Looks great and is fun to watch.
The pros will pinch the pocket from the outside and try to make Manziel throw from inside the pocket. He has great escapability and will force the issue to extend plays.
Not sure that will be a good thing or not in the AFC North.
The Steelers and the Ravens have dominated the division for a long time. They have done so with very strong defenses and power run games. It is not like they don't throw the ball but their base game is pretty straight forward.
Manziel's game, his strengths to me are better suited in other places not Cleveland. I do not think Manziel is the right guy for every team. He may very well succeed but I believe he needs to be in the right place with the right coaching to be successful.
If I didn't know better, I thought I was reading about Ben Roethlisberger. Granted Ben has better size, but isn't this exactly what makes Ben effective?
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Quote:
Quote:
but hey... let's keep drafting QB's on a team that can't win more than 6 games in a season since 2007 so we can enjoy a QB like Bradford or Alex Smith or the other 21 QB's that didn't make it far.
sounds like fun.
I think I'm reading you correctly? You sound like one of those guys that thinks you need to build the team first, then add the missing piece in a QB?
Follow this bouncing ball.
There are 5 positions on any team that GM's around the league would virtually unanimously say you need to have filled before you become anything of relevance.
QB is #1 on that list. Do we have one? NO.
LT. Check
#1 WR. Check (Anyone (Toad) doubting Gordon has their head in the sand)
DE 4-3 Pass Rusher 3-4. Check
#1 CB. Check
The 4 "Checks" right there are why we are a QB away from challenging for the Division on a yearly basis. You heard that right. A QB away.
Take your list and look back to see exactly what team had any of those 4 positions solidified when they were drafted. Their success rate is tied directly to those 4 positions.
We would be a 9-12 win team RIGHT NOW if we had any semblence of a REAL QB on this team.
Go get the QB THIS YEAR.
We would also be 1 of a few teams to ever pull something like that off in the last 15 years. I am following the Bouncing ball.
I believe we need to take a QB. no question- I don't believe we need to throw another QB to the wolves and break them too.
I believe Hoyer needs to start the entire year (or some veteran QB)
I believe we need to get team closer to a .500 team before we hand over the reigns to a rookie QB.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Manning joined a 3 win Colts.
Ryan joined a 3 win Falcons.
Stafford joined the 0-16 Lions.
They seem fine.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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JM has heart. I like that in any player.
I don't think it wise to count the kid out.
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Quote:
Manning joined a 3 win Colts.
Ryan joined a 3 win Falcons.
Stafford joined the 0-16 Lions.
They seem fine.
I already account for that in my stats breakdown. go back and look.
in 96 Indy was 9-7 in 95 they were 9-7 in 94 they were 8-8.
ATL in 06 was 7-9 in 05 they were 8-8 in o3 they were 11-5
both teams were good solid teams and had one bad year when they drafted a QB number 1 and number 3. Indy did not recover for 2 years from it either.
Stafford has been to the playoffs how many times?
once and he's only had one season that win over .500
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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In 97 Indy won 3 games. In 98 they won three games...
Back to back 3 wins seasons is a solid team? Well then we must be super prepared.
You have this grandiose idea of building a "perfect team" and slotting a QB in there... Guess what.. It rarely ever happens...
Seattle was TERRIBLE two years before Wilson got there, and went 7-9 the year before.. And he (IMO) isn't as talented as some of the guys coming out this year...
We are far better off right now than most teams that play a first round pick.. This isn't the team Couch got killed behind.. Couch would of flourished on this team...
If you don't like these guys, that's fine, whatever, but to try to make this some statistical breakdown is ridiculous..
Correlation versus Causation.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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