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A guy taken at 4 is probably going to start. Seems grooming is a thing of the past for top tier guys. However, if we can grab Garopolo at 71 ( I think it will take the 26 personally) then MIGHT not be as much pressure to start him allowing Hoyer to prove 2013 was real.
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~ Legend
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I don't get where the idea of grooming a QB is. I think only Carson Palmer and Aaron Rodgers were groomed. And it's hard to say Aaron Rodgers was groomed after Brett said he wanted nothing to do with him.
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One of the good things that Russell Wilson had going for him at the combine was that, even though he was short, he had one of the largest pair of hands ever measured. (10.25") No wonder he can hide the ball so well on play action. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I don't get where the idea of grooming a QB is. I think only Carson Palmer and Aaron Rodgers were groomed. And it's hard to say Aaron Rodgers was groomed after Brett said he wanted nothing to do with him.
Philip Rivers was groomed as well. And contrary to what one might believe, for whatever reason, coaches can groom a player... they don't need the incumbent QB to do that for them.
Unless I'm forgetting someone, this means that since the year 2000, 100% (3 of 3) of all 1st round QB's that were sat and groomed are still playing in the league at a relatively high level.
Since 2000, 19 of 38 - 50% - of all 1st round QB's have failed (Chad Pennington, David Carr,Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, J.P. Losman, Jason Campbell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn, Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman, Tim Tebow, Ponder, Weeden, and Gabbert).
Of course, this can all be read a number of different ways, but the glaringly obvious way is that if you invest high in a guy and give him some time to work his way into the job, his chances of success are greatly improved.
Ultimately, however, it largely boils down to the individual involved.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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failed? Chad Pennington was a failure? 44-37 as a starter and a career QB Rating of 90.4. That's not bad.
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failed? Chad Pennington was a failure? 44-37 as a starter and a career QB Rating of 90.4. That's not bad.
Hmmm... valid point, I think. Though I wouldn't really call him a success, he wasn't any more of a failure than a Carson Palmer.
I should note that I was using data from this page and I didn't really look too deeply into the list of names, and instead just accepted what they had listed.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I don't get where the idea of grooming a QB is. I think only Carson Palmer and Aaron Rodgers were groomed. And it's hard to say Aaron Rodgers was groomed after Brett said he wanted nothing to do with him.
I'm in the minority that I think Rodgers would have been fine had he started day 1...
I think the grooming thing is old hat. I mean after 1 training camp, preseason, full season and offseason, how much more are you really going to learn?
Brady Quinn sat for a year and a half and still sucked.
I think there is definitely a correlation between these QB's being able to deliver right away and QB's coming off the board quicker on draft day...
I think even half a season may be enough for a rookie QB to sit. Although if you are transitioning a QB mid-season there are obviously problems going on...
I mean if we start Hoyer and we're winning, nobody will be calling for Manziel or Bortles or whoever...
I do think Hoyer should be the starter no matter what. Although with a new coach and new system, that may not be the case.
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Philip Rivers was groomed as well. And contrary to what one might believe, for whatever reason, coaches can groom a player... they don't need the incumbent QB to do that for them.
Unless I'm forgetting someone, this means that since the year 2000, 100% (3 of 3) of all 1st round QB's that were sat and groomed are still playing in the league at a relatively high level.
Philip Rivers took over a team that was 21-11 the two years before he started with one playoff appearance.... Aaron Rodgers took over a team that was 21-11 the two years before he started with one playoff appearance... Carson Palmers team was 10-22 but 8-8 the year before he started...
I bet if you go back and look, most of these QBs started out of necessity on bad teams...
yebat' Putin
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Rivers was drafted because Brees wasn't getting it done and was looking like a bust. After they drafted him is when Brees began to turn it on.
Rodgers was drafted to replace Favre - it was a decidedly unique position, for sure.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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At 6' 2-1/4", 220lbs with 9-3/4" hands, it sounds like I should enter the draft, lol!
It's your age that people would be concerned with... and your mental faculties.
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At 6' 2-1/4", 220lbs with 9-3/4" hands, it sounds like I should enter the draft, lol!
It's your age that people would be concerned with... and your mental faculties.
Age we can get past... the rest.... well, nevermind 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Purp - aren't you about the same age as Weeden? And I know you are smarter than he is 
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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With rate we're going just having someone who could absorb a hit would help! Might as well throw my hat in the ring. I'm bigger than the whole team hahaha.
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j/c:
I know we have talked about this before, but it still amazes me how many of these NFL teams actually seem to put so much stock into the Combine as opposed to the play on the field.
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I don't get where the idea of grooming a QB is. I think only Carson Palmer and Aaron Rodgers were groomed. And it's hard to say Aaron Rodgers was groomed after Brett said he wanted nothing to do with him.
I'm in the minority that I think Rodgers would have been fine had he started day 1...
I think the grooming thing is old hat. I mean after 1 training camp, preseason, full season and offseason, how much more are you really going to learn?
Brady Quinn sat for a year and a half and still sucked.
I think there is definitely a correlation between these QB's being able to deliver right away and QB's coming off the board quicker on draft day...
I think even half a season may be enough for a rookie QB to sit. Although if you are transitioning a QB mid-season there are obviously problems going on...
I mean if we start Hoyer and we're winning, nobody will be calling for Manziel or Bortles or whoever...
I do think Hoyer should be the starter no matter what. Although with a new coach and new system, that may not be the case.
First off, Farve helped Rodgers a ton. While he said it was not his job to COACH him he did mentor him. Yeah, it got a little rocky right before he left because of the situation but Rodgers has said many time he got plenty of help from Brett.
"For his part, Rodgers remains grateful about his apprenticeship under Favre.
"That was a valuable time, it really was," he told the NFL Network's Michael Irvin before the game. "I really learned a lot about practice habits from him, and I think you realize as a young player that a lot of the time, the practice goes as the top player or top leader goes. Practice time is so vital to the success of the team, so he would every day bring energy and enthusiasm, and I learned a lot of important lessons like that.""
When did BQ ever stay in the same offensive system from one year to the next and have the confidence he was THE guy.
It does no good to sit a QB or to play him if your going to have a new offense every season. The whole point is sitting a QB is letting him have time to make the playbook more like second nature instead of having to think so hard. It gives them a chance to learn NFL defenses so they can read the field better. It makes them have to EARN that starting role which makes the team respect them more even if the team loses. You put all of that together and it does the VERY important task of building up the QB's confidence.
DA for example, he got a lot better once he played the second year in the same system but crumbled under pressure because he didn't have confidence once the games started to matter. This would be one reason people could be right about manziel. That kid has serious confidence. So long as Manziel can survive NFL hits he will do well.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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I think you should read Rodger's comments again.
He got his help from Farve by watching him, not from Farve mentoring him. BF was--and is--a Class A jerk.
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I think you should read Rodger's comments again.
He got his help from Farve by watching him, not from Farve mentoring him. BF was--and is--a Class A jerk.
As someone who has met Farve several times I can tell you it's fact he is nicest guy you will ever meet till you lie to him. He will help anyone. He had no problems with Rodgers until they pressured him to retire. I mean I dont blame GB because how many QB's are still playing at a high level at his age. Still they made the decision to replace him long before he was ready so yeah things got tense at the end. that doesn't make him a jerk. Just makes him a HOF qb fed up with how he was being treated.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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I understand why you want to defend him. I will honor that and just agree to disagree on how much he mentored Rodgers, Timid, and others.
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At 6' 2-1/4", 220lbs with 9-3/4" hands, it sounds like I should enter the draft, lol!
dude, you were drafted last year. you can't enter it again!
#gmstrong
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I really don't buy into the "Grooming" process. Guys either have it or they don't. Which is why I was so critical of Brandon Weeden two seasons ago, he doesn't have it, he never did.
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When did BQ ever stay in the same offensive system from one year to the next and have the confidence he was THE guy.
He sat in Chud's system for a year behind DA, and halfway through the next year, he got the start, and outside of the first game, he was terrible.
it became clear that it wasn't the system, the guy just can't make good NFL throws.
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I really don't buy into the "Grooming" process. Guys either have it or they don't. Which is why I was so critical of Brandon Weeden two seasons ago, he doesn't have it, he never did.
Its that simple.
That is why I don't waste my time on Bortles or Carr talk.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-d...-qbs-on-tuesdayMOBILE, Ala. – After an inconsistent practice on Monday, NFL scouts and coaches were eager to see the North quarterbacks on Tuesday, especially with a strong wind swirling around Ladd-Peebles Stadium. But unfortunately it was another inconsistent practice for Virginia Tech QB Logan Thomas, Clemson QB Tajh Boyd and Miami (Fla.) QB Stephen Morris. Thomas is the most physically gifted quarterback, not only in Mobile this week, but in the entire class with his tall, well-proportioned frame and big arm to toss the ball anywhere he wants on the field. But touch continues to be an issue with him. During Tuesday's practice, Thomas would throw a perfect laser that hit his intended target s between the numbers, but then would follow it up with an overthrow that sailed well over the receivers head and another errant pass that caused the wideout to re-route in order to try and track down the throw. We'll often hear this draft season that Thomas has “what can't be taught” when referring to his physical attributes, but can touch and accuracy be taught? It can be tweaked and improved from a mechanical standpoint, but from his performances the past two days along with three years of game film, it's tough to see the upside with Thomas. It wouldn't surprise me if the Virginia Tech quarterback ends up hearing his name called on the second day of the draft. But a team that drafts him that high is living on a hope and a prayer – similar to many of Thomas' throws this week. Morris showed improvements from Monday's practice with better all-around accuracy. He appeared to be taking a little bit off his fastball, which allowed him to better control the placement of the throw. Morris' delivery and arm strength appear effortless and easy, but he still struggled with errant passes and inconsistent throws. Boyd continues to be unimpressive, largely because of his accuracy issues. He slings the ball from wild arm angles and sometimes the ball would arrive on time and hit the receiver in the hands, but there were too many other passes that were off the mark and really caused the intended target to do most of the work. If you isolated Tuesday's highlight throws from Thomas, Boyd and Morris, you would have three potential first round picks. But once you add the negative passes and lowlights from the practice, you're left with three physically gifted players who are wildly inconsistent throwing the football. There is still work to be done on these players, but it's hard not to be discouraged by this week's results so far.
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Until the draft thread opens we gotta talk QB's
Teddy- we only get him if the Texans don't want him.
Johnny F- Do we trade both firsts and more? Do we wait till #4 and see if he's still there?
Bortles- He's gonna lift the first Lombardi on the stand for the Browns? Really? You think he's that good? Skillset? Leadership? Character? Work Ethic?
Carr- Put the keys in the ignition and punch it. Get away fast.
Tajh- Select him any higher than our 2nd round pick? Master of the bubble screen and long looping deep pass. That's a little harsh. I think he's a good guy.
Hoyer and Campbell-
D.A. and Quinn- Hey they're both available! Kinda scary that Whisenhunt brought in D.A. and made him the starter after Warner retired. Really scary.
So, let me ask this of everyone:
Of these guys, who is a sure-fire "generational QB" like a Manning, Brady, Favre, Rodgers, etc....?
I only recall one in recent years, and that is Andrew Luck. If these guys don't stack up to him, why do you take whomever at #4, or God-forbid, trade up to get them?
Do you reach simply because we need SOMEBODY?
If Bridgewater is the only one of that type, and he is sure to be gone.... what are you REALLY missing out on if you don't take one of the others high?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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It's like life. You can't succeed if you don't attempt it. You only fail by not trying. There are no sure things in drafting players. There are very sure things in any business venture.
This happens to be a very good draft class. Much better than last year's class. And if you remember correctly, a lot of us who advocating taking a qb high in this year's draft were totally opposed to drafting one last year.
We are in a good spot to land our guy. Is it a sure thing? No, but you are increasing the odds of obtaining the most important position in football. Heck, QB is more important than the coach.
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This happens to be a very good draft class
Assuming you mean the QB's since that's the topic, I bet you will find VERY few people that would agree with you. the class of this class seems to be Teddy.
I asked on another thread what it would cost to move up to get him and one person answered that it would take our two firsts and our second and maybe more.
So I'll ask you Vers, if Teddy is the best in the class, would you give up that much to get him?
Assuming you can't pry that pick away and Teddy is gone, what would you give to get to the second pick and if you got there, which of the remaining QB's would you take?
Once again, if you can't the second pick and your choice of the second best QB is gone, what does it take to get to move up to the Third pick and who do you take?
The premise here is that the first three picks will all be QB's and I don't think that's the case.
And that's because this draft class of QB's isn't as good as you think.. Of course, my opinion is based on things I've read from a variety of sources and I'll be the first to admit, they could all be wrong which in terms makes my questions moot.
So, don't feel as if I'm picking on you, I'm really not. But I'd like to know your thinking on this.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I understand all of that, and if "you can't succeed if you don't try" is a valid reason, then that means you have no issues with us drafting Weeden where we did, or Quinn.
What I'm getting at is that if none of these guys are the no-brainer "generational" type... the kind that comes along once in a blue moon and are perennially among the best in the sport, then what is the real difference? Is it worth it to spend that high with so much risk potential for a guy that has as much chance of being Tavaris Jackson as he does Matt Ryan? If that's the case, isn't this then the very definition of reaching because of need?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I have very limited knowledge on what it takes to move up in the draft. I do think that what the poster told you sounds like too much. We aren't moving up that far. We do have the 4th overall pick. Moving from 4 to 2 isn't that huge.
I really can't tell you what I would give, because I am fairly ignorant when it comes to draft slotting and its value. I'm not ducking the question, I just don't like to answer when I don't know enough about a topic. I will say that we have plenty of ammunition and we are only moving up a few slots, and this is a pretty strong qb class, and I think the timing couldn't be more right. Those are things I am better at.
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Well, I can only go by my own evaluations. I had a 4th round grade on Weeden.. And if you remember, I was jacked out of my mind when we drafted Joe T, but then very upset when we traded up to get BQ. I didn't like either of those QBs.
On the other hand, I have a top of the first round grade on Teddy and Manziel. There is my difference.
Look, it's just opinion. I am not asking you to agree. It's just how I feel. We are here to discuss Brown's football. That's all.
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Moving from 4 to 2 isn't that huge.
We once gave up a 2nd round pick to move from #7 to #6, just to draft Winslow. The move from 4 to whatever would be even larger.
Two years ago, the Redskins gave up three 1st's and a 2nd to move to #2 from #6.
The Draft value chart is linked on here somewhere, and while it isn't definitive by any means, it is widely reported as still being relevant by teams looking to trade.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Yeah, one spot. LOL
I think the Washington trade is one that made teams realize that that will never happen again.
Again, I am not going to try and pretend to have any expertise about such things. I was simply trying to answer the questions you guys asked.
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Understood. I'm just trying to get people to think beyond a blinders-on "QB or Bust" at 4 mentality, simply because it's a very real probability that whichever QB(s) are there at 4, in the long run, they just won't be worth that pick - much less trading up for anyone.
The thinking is that you go for the slam dunk "I know this player is worthy of #4" pick, regardless of position. If that is a Safety, a CB, an ILB, or a RT, so be it.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Moving from 4 to 2 isn't that huge.
We once gave up a 2nd round pick to move from #7 to #6, just to draft Winslow. The move from 4 to whatever would be even larger.
Two years ago, the Redskins gave up three 1st's and a 2nd to move to #2 from #6.
That was Butch Davis ... and it was no secret how much he wanted Winslow. Millen jobbed him, plain and simple.
Didn't we move one spot in the 1st in exchange for a 6th round pick? I think we swapped with Baltimore and they took Ngata, we took Wimbley. I think all we got was a low level pick out of that.
As to the Skins deal, that was because it was RG3. If the Rams expect someone to cough that up for a shot at Teddy or Johnny then they will not be trading that pick. And even if it was another RG3 I don't think anyone would pony up what Washington did.
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... draft slotting and its value.
If we were to move up from #4 to #2, according to the latest draft value chart, it would cost us our two 1st rd picks and our first 4th rounder. To go from #4 to #1 would be both our firsts and our second rounder. These are the projected values for the 2014 draft, so they are current. However, there are other factors that enter the picture such as how many teams are looking to move up which makes the trade much more competitive (and expensive).
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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there are other factors that enter the picture such as how many teams are looking to move up
if there is a bidding war, throw all charts out the window.... or, if they seller can convince you there is a bidding war.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447 |
It's a leap of faith but I'm confident. I'd give 3 firsts for Teddy. Maybe more(not 1sts). Here is my very detailed version of my thought process. This is what I see as the best gameplan when evaluating every aspect of this offseason. Bear with me here. My view is shallow as I will not even try to consider depth/backups. We have 4 major must fill holes IMO. QB, RB, RG, ILB. Meaning it's a position of high importance(QB), we have no starter material whatsoever(RB,RG) or borderline worst in the NFL starter from 2013(ILB). We have 3 minor holes. WR, CB, FS. It would be nice to fill them but if need be we have guys with starting experience albeit below average results. 4 of these positions are well known to get solid production from later picks if chosen correctly(RB,RG,ILB,FS). This example I will say that our HC has showed success with young late picked ILBs. Our OC has had equal, if not more, success with late round RBs. It also happens to be a very deep talent pool for both positions with elite talent available in round 3-5 compared to most drafts. Say we fill these two must have needs in the 3rd round or later. That leaves QB and RG as must haves and WR, CB and FS as minor holes. 2 of these positions have deep and talented FA pools(WR,CB) that will mean cheap investments. FS has a shallow pool with elite talent one of which has multiple connections to the browns(Byrd). Given our cap situation it is likely we will come out with 1-3 new starters from FA. For this example I will leave exactly which positions open but lets split the difference and say we get 2 starters from FA at either WR,CB or FS. That leaves us, pre-draft, with 2 must haves high round starters and 1 minor hole(If you are understanding me technically we still need a RB and ILB but I previously eliminated those as late round fills ). So we come into the draft. A few things can happen. I will detail my preference. I sadly don't have time to do other possibilities. Possibility 1) Houston's pick is available and we want it. We need to consider we must fill the OG position. There is no reason to invest so highly in a QB if we do not intend to protect him. This means we can't just trade our 1st 4 picks away, preferably even our first 3. The value chart, as one poster pointed out calls for our 4, 26 and 35. To help our own needs we keep 35 and instead elect to give Houston our 2015 1st. This solidifies the deal. Teddy Bridgewater is a Brown. We still kept 35. OG is a strong position in this draft and only one or two prospects should be off the board. We protect our new investment with a top RG prospect. With giving up a 2015 1st our FO deems it wise to trade away our highest 3rd and 4th round picks for future picks of a round higher as we did the previous year. There is usually a market for this type of trade especially among playoff contending teams with closing Superbowl windows. We close the draft with a pick in each round. We have a new QB, RG, RB, ILB and 3 picks for depth/remaining minor hole. We enter 2015 with at most one minor hole, no 1st round pick but 2 2nds and 2 3rds. That is not to say we exit 2015 the same.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 344
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 344 |
Quote:
I hope we do abso-freakin'-lutley nothing to move up
I Absolutely Agree with this statement! If Johnny Football and Bridgewater are both still there (which I Truly Doubt) I hope we get Bridgewater. We need a QB at #$! JMHO Go Brownies!!!!
Who Let Da Dawgs Out? Woof, Woof, Woof!!!!!
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 380
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 380 |
I'm so tired of not having a qb. At some point drafting need overrides bpa IMO. Do we keep trying 3rd rounders? At some point you have to take a stab at a first rounder. Top of first round. Not weedenish.
If you have to trade up so be it. Unless you just plan on sucking worse next year so you pick first. Cause either you do that or you have to trade up next year also to get top qbs. We are primed for a trade this year with the ammo we have.
Say we pass on qb at top. We suck again next year but not as sucky. So we pick aroun 7-10. Worse position than this year without an extra 1st 3rd and 4th. At some point we have to do something and this is the year. Cause farmer is said to like mariotta. Hate for him to trade up for HIM next year.
I understand people not wanting to trade away picks. But seriously, we have had extra picks before and that never worked either. I just don't understand how watching this team since 99 someone wouldn't do ANYTHING for above average qb.
Signed, season ticket holder, still...... Hangin...... On.......
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,317
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,317 |
j/c I found an interesting article containing a lengthy statistical comparison between Bridgewater, Manziel, Bortles and Carr. I don't consider myself a stats geek. However stats can help reinforce what you think you're seeing in on field performance. So that any poster can do their own due diligence I am providing the link. To be honest I was already inclined to take either Bridgewater or Manziel with pick 4. This only reinforces my intuition. link
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,246
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,246 |
Article was linked earlier...
Reaffirms my position...
If Bridgewater is there, you take him. Same with Manziel.
I'm okay with Bortles if they can trade down... I have a... feeling he might be there at 22 though.
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