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Kelly Shoppach
The guy had two 20 home run minor league campaigns before being called up. He is a flat out better defensive catcher than victor with some offensive upside.
All the teams in recent memory to win the World Series have had defensive minded, "Call the game" type catchers who are tough to steal on.
Pudge- Marlins AND Tigers
Yadier Molina- Cardinals
Jason Varitek- Boston
AJ Perzinski- Chicago
the other Molina Bengie- Anaheim
we can't DH him because pronk isn't going anywhere. He is an ELITE hitter, not just an average hitter with crappy defense. There is a noticeable difference with Kelly Shoppach playing catcher, those "Gimme" steals aren't gimmes anymore.
I have ranted about this before, but seeing it in action makes me really want to do it. If we can pull another Bartolo Colon deal with Victor, I would be all for it.
Colon deal produced:
Sizemore
Brandon Phillips
Cliff Lee
and another guy, was it Casey Blake. I don’t know some crappy 1st basemen.
If we can trade V-mart in his prime for a few top-notch prospects I say do it.
Thoughts?
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I agree Shoppach is better defensivly, but is trading Victor really nessesary? Victor can play first base. An infield of Marte, Peralta, Barfield, and Victor sounds fine to me. Screw Blake...
[color:"yellow"]"If I could do anything different, I wouldn't have went and gotten nothing to eat then. There wasn't even no girls in there," - Pacman Jones[/color]
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I totally agree. Screw Blake, he sucks.
But we have Ryan Garko who is in my opinion a 25-30 home run guy waiting in the wings to play first base.
We can't keep blocking him forever, and I don't know that V-mart was any better at first base than he is catcher.
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Quote:
and another guy, was it Casey Blake. I don’t know some crappy 1st basemen.
Lee Stevens IIRC
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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I have to admit I'm on the Shoppach bandwagon. In the spring training game I went to with Californiabrownsfan, he threw out 3 trying to steal 2nd. Two of them he really gunned and had 'em easy. He called a great game with just the relievers pitching. I'm was a V-mart pimp, but unless he improves in that area...  ...we're just giving away runs.
"I don't want to play golf, when I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it"
Rogers Hornsby. St. Louis Cardinals (1915-1926)
Space Coast, Fla.
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NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you kidding me!!!!! This man gives Travis Hafner all the protection he needs, not only that he batted over .300 EVERY MONTH BUT ONE LAST YEAR!!! Not to mention he started this year off by throwing out one of the fastest players in MLB TWICE! That shows you he can throw runners out.
I would never trade Victor Martinez, I would trade Garko and put Victor at first before I traded Victor...
You would have to get the house for me to even consider trading him.
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I definatly would be alright with a Victor Martinez trade. I think Shoppach would be a solid catcher ... the trade-off of offense for defense would be well worth it. V-Mart should definatly take first over Blake. Usually 1st is your power-hitting slugger, and we've got Casey Blake there.
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Quote:
Pudge- Marlins AND Tigers
Yadier Molina- Cardinals
Jason Varitek- Boston
AJ Perzinski- Chicago
the other Molina Bengie- Anaheim
Pudge can hit very well
Molina isnt a good hitter
Varitek is a good hitter
Perzinski hit good the bast 2 years
Bengie wasnt a bad hitter either
Don't get my wrong, Shoppach is my favorite backup player on the Tribe, but trading our BEST AVERAGE HITTER is INSANE. Do you want to win it all this year or just stack up some more prospects for later years? I think we should keep him and win as many games this year as we can.
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At the very least you keep Victor until the trade deadline, if not the end of the season when somebody will be desperate and the deal would be sweeter.. or you keep him until you are comfortable that Shoppach is the real deal for more than 2 weeks. Trading him now would be sort of knee jerk if you ask me.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you kidding me!!!!!
as inspiring as this is. 
Sorry buddy, you may be thinking because he hits .300 he is a great catcher, and you are wrong. he only throws out 22%, yes 22% of base runners.
Ya, that's basically a gimme.
In the playoffs, those runs count and 1 run means the difference between a WS win, and being the loveable loser.
Quote:
Not to mention he started this year off by throwing out one of the fastest players in MLB TWICE!
If your talking about scott podsednik, you are sorely mistaken if you think he is one of the fastet in the game still.
Those guys for me are
Carl crawford
Jose Reyes
Chone Figgins
Scott has lost a step, and isn't nearly as good as he has been in the past.
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That shows you he can throw runners out.
No, it does not, and his 22% thrown out rate proves that.
Quote:
You would have to get the house for me to even consider trading him.
Did you read what i wrote? That is exactly waht I was implying.
But I bet you would trade him in three years when he is washed up and no one wants him, then wonder why we didn't get great prospects.
People need to realize that defense wins championships, and with guys like Peralta manning short, and Victor playing catcher, we will never win in the playoffs.
Did you see my examples of defensive catchers on WS winning teams?
Peralta- below average on defense
Bl
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Quote:
BEST AVERAGE HITTER is INSANE.
Wrong again, that is pronk, and Grady Sizemore will be better this year than Victor.
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Quote:
Trading him now would be sort of knee jerk if you ask me.
This isn't knee jerk, I have been saying this since last year. He is a liability at catcher, and I NEVER said we should trade him right now.
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Quote:
Quote:
BEST AVERAGE HITTER is INSANE.
Wrong again, that is pronk, and Grady Sizemore will be better this year than Victor.
No, look at the stats last year, Victor hit better than Hafner.
Also, I did read what you said and I strongly disagree, just because he isn't the best defensive player doesn't mean you have to trade him... His offense evens out with his defense, and you can put him at first base and he will put up better numbers than anyone that plays first base for us right now... Trading him would be getting rid of Hafner's protection, and would take a huge bat out of the lineup.
Victor isn't just a good hitter, hes a switch hitter, you can throw him in the middle of the lineup, if they throw a left in to face Hafner, they have to deal with Victor from the right side.
Trading Victor is not the right move at all, move him to first base at worst, plus he has started off pretty good behind the plate this year.
Last edited by WinslowBodden; 04/13/07 03:10 PM.
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[Pudge can hit very well Wrong, he developed into a good hitter as he got older, and he is that, old. Molina isnt a good hitter yep Varitek is a good hitter Wrong, maybe he WAS, not now, but ill give you this one as a tweener Perzinski hit good the bast 2 years actuall I was wrong on AJ, he sucks. Bengie wasnt a bad hitter either he wasn't great http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fiel...lenBasesAllowed
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Quote:
No, look at the stats last year, Victor hit better than Hafner.
I was wrong. I thought Hafner hit like .320 last year.
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Dude, you said "WHEN THEY WON THE WS"
I posted saying they were good hitters when they won the world series, stop saying I am wrong on every thing... It would be like me bringing up the 49'rs super bowls and saying Rice was good because he could do xxxxx and you saying WRONG he could but he cannot now!
Edit : Maybe it was confusing when I said "is" but I meant "was" referring to when the world series were played and they were playing on the respective teams.
Last edited by WinslowBodden; 04/13/07 03:13 PM.
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I am not going out of my way to say you are wrong.
my apolgies
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I am not going out of my way to say you are wrong.
my apolgies
No need to apologize I don't hate ya because you are arguing with me, arguments are just opinions man, dont take it personal, I never do 
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You say his offense offsets his defence and I disagree. he allowed 100 stolen bases last year. web page
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When I said that I meant if he played first base, not catcher.
Because I think he can be an average first basemen and put up great numbers at first base.
Victor was a weak link last year at catcher, it was never his arm, it was how long it took him to get rid of the ball and his foot work. If he got that fixed in the off-season then he SHOULD be fine.
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Notice who represented the Central in the WS last year?
The guy whose team stopped 51% of base runners.
Compared to Victors paltry 18%
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Quote:
When I said that I meant if he played first base, not catcher.
aaahhhh I see now. 
I can't disagree with that. I actually think Garko has played some catcher too, so a platoon with Shoppach would be nice.
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Yeah I know that lol, I'm not saying Victor should be our catcher, I just don't support trading him.
Also, the reason for the tribes massive let down last year was a tough division + horrible bullpen + poor infield defense.
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We agree to disagree. I think that is Martinez can't man catcher we should shop him AS a catcher, not a 1st basemen.
The second we put him at first not a team in the world would consider him a catcher. Shopping a .300 20HR switch hitter could land us some top prospects.
Shopping a .300 20 hr first basemen who had never played first before isn't as appealing.
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True, but I wouldn't move him to first base to trade him, I would move him there to keep him.
I am not interested in prospects either because before the season I really believed that this team could win it all.
Another thing, I am a huge Shoppach supporter and would love to get him in the lineup and keep Victor in it as well.
Sadly, this may happen if we don't resign Pronk because our owner is cheap, which would move Victor to DH.
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j/c
Trading VM right now is a high risk proposition.
You guys say Shoppach hit 20 HR's in the minors. Lot's of guys hit lot's of HR's in the minors and fail to hit in the big leagues. I would want to see Shoppach do a lot more hitting in the Majors before I would consider trading Martinez. As a side note I really do like Shoppach's defense.
You say we can't DH him because of Hafner. Hafner's contract is up after the 2008 season. I would definitely want him resigned to a long term contract before I would consider trading Martinez.
Garko? Looks promising but you don't know yet. See the Shoppach discussion above.
What does he bring to the clubhouse? My personal belief is that one of the reasons we had such a bad year last year was the trade of Coco Crisp. Was it because he is such a great player that he couldn't be replaced? No. He is much more than an average major league talent. But his enthusiasm for the game and the high energy manner in which he approached the game were contagious. It made everyone else on the team more excited to be on the field. Sometimes losing that takes some getting use to.
I am a strong proponent of pitching and defense and no player is untradeable if the price is right. The question is what is that price? And right now there are too many questions to trade VM unless that price is really overwelming.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Defense 2006 Innings SB SB Frequency
V-Mart 1110 100 11.1 Innings
Shoppach 280.1 19 14.7 Innings
Shoppach Projected 1110 75 14.7 Innings
Offense 2006 ab Hits RBI Runs
V-Mart 572 181 93 82
Shoppach 110 27 16 7
Shoppach Projected 572 140.4 83.2 36.4
I think I am willing to trade 25 extra stolen bases for 40 extra hits, 10 extra RBI, and 45 extra runs. Yes, his defense isn't great to say the least but the offensive downgrade is nowhere near the value of the defensive upgrade.
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Nah... you need two catchers to get through a 162-game season and it helps to have two guys with different skill sets. Plus, Victor is great in the clubhouse. I'd hate to lose him. We're set at catcher for a while. I don't see any reason to upset that particular apple cart. We have enough to deal with in the bullpen.
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Why trade V-Mart, when he is a good, but not great 1st Baseman. His catching as everyone has observed, sucks to high heaven, so did Garko's...And guess where Ryan ended up? AT 1st!  Victor's hitting, you just flat out can't replace, one of thee best hitters in Baseball. Shoppach, man, he has a GUN!!!  (Literally  ) And, I'm a HUGE fan of Ryan Garko and wish to not give up on him. Me thinks we gots too much catchers with V-Fart err, uh, V-Mart, Kelly, and Mike Rose in Buffalo, we need to choose a catcher and stick with him for years like we did with Sandy Alomar Jr. BTW, how did that Jason Johnson deal for Shoppach work out?
Last edited by BrowniePoints; 04/13/07 04:40 PM.
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I agree in that a bad catcher is going to cost you more games than he is going to win you at the plate, even if he is a great hitter like Martinez. It isn't the kind of stuff most really notice but catchers can hit 210 and still start if the are solid behind the plate.
Before I traded him I would look into the 1st base option as one poster mentioned....but if all else fails....dump him. You have to have a solid defensive catcher, I don't care how well he hits.
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It's simple. In this market with the type of team we have to build you have to sacrifice certain things. The offensive production that Victor gives us at the catcher posistion is a pretty great asset. I know Shapiro has mentioned that many, many times. And to be completely honest, Victor's defense really isn't that bad. If you're basing this on the fact that he had a bad year throwing out runners then that's pretty dumb. He's not bad at stopping balls, he's a pretty good field general, he has the fire you want a catcher to have, and a great deal of the steals on him can be attributed to the pitcher.
You won't even come close to getting the type of prospects we got in the Colon deal either. It's also ridiculous to trade your clean up hitter when you're trying to contend. Trading his production and his leadership would just flat out be a stupid move.
Time and change will surely show
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Quote:
Kelly Shoppach
The guy had two 20 home run minor league campaigns before being called up. He is a flat out better defensive catcher than victor with some offensive upside.
All the teams in recent memory to win the World Series have had defensive minded, "Call the game" type catchers who are tough to steal on.
Pudge- Marlins AND Tigers
Yadier Molina- Cardinals
Jason Varitek- Boston
AJ Perzinski- Chicago
the other Molina Bengie- Anaheim
we can't DH him because pronk isn't going anywhere. He is an ELITE hitter, not just an average hitter with crappy defense. There is a noticeable difference with Kelly Shoppach playing catcher, those "Gimme" steals aren't gimmes anymore.
I have ranted about this before, but seeing it in action makes me really want to do it. If we can pull another Bartolo Colon deal with Victor, I would be all for it.
Colon deal produced:
Sizemore
Brandon Phillips
Cliff Lee
and another guy, was it Casey Blake. I don’t know some crappy 1st basemen.
If we can trade V-mart in his prime for a few top-notch prospects I say do it.
Thoughts?
No what are you thinking. seriously i dont even want you as an indians fan anymore just leave seriously nobody wants you here. Go root for the white sox
GO VICTOR
![[Linked Image from img299.imageshack.us]](http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5070/677849871kb3.jpg)
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Quote:
No what are you thinking. seriously i dont even want you as an indians fan anymore just leave seriously nobody wants you here. Go root for the white sox
GO VICTOR
You are a joke and I won't take your opinion seriously.
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What do you get when you cross Calvin Johnson and anything.
God
Thats a joke.
I am not.
Go VICTOR.
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Victor Martinez is the best hitting catcher in baseball. He calls a good game and is good at blocking balls behind the plate, actually among the best at that. Further, have you seen the Indians offense without him? He is a big influence in the middle of that lineup, a nice switch-hitting presence that teams have to respect. His arm is below average, but not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Someone pointed to A.J. Pierzynski as a top defensive catcher. He threw out 22% across the board since leaving Minnesota. Victor has thrown out 22% in his career. He had a horrible start last year to the year defensively (and offensively actually) and then in the second half of the season, his totals were amazing offensively and he threw out (drumroll please) 22% of would-be base stealers. Look, he'll never be confused with Pudge Martinez and I am a huge Kelly Shoppach fan who believes he should be starting 2-3 out of every ten games. But Wedge has rode Victor into the ground with as much as he has been using him in the past two years, because he can't afford to take his bat out of the lineup.
Also, Shoppach was acquired in the Coco Crisp/Andy Marte deal, not the Jason Johnson deal. And the person that included Mike Rose in his discussion of Indians catching prospects needs to readjust his standards. Rose is a 30 y/o journeyman catcher, he is a younger Tim Laker and has the future of being Buffalo's catcher for the next few years if he wants it. There is some good catching depth lower (Matt McBride, Max Ramirez and Wyatt Toregas), but there is no catcher on the horizon to take over the job in the next few years.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Ya that was me who implies that AJ was a good catcher, and I was dead wrong on that one as far as throwing guys out goes.
My bad
Log, I have seen you have solid baseball knwoledge and respect your opinion.
My point of this blurb isn't that we can't get by with victor's defense, but that we can't win a championship with catching 18% of runners.
JMHO
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Isn't it past your bed time?
#gmstrong
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I think we can get by with Victor's defense, but it requires Wedge to be more proactive in his substitutions than he has been in the past. I'd have no problem at all with Vic moving to 1B and bringing Shoppach in to catch in late inning situations in close games. Frankly, I think its a good move. However, Wedge needs to be much more aggressive in doing so, IMO.
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Ya know, I was pondering this the other day. If you look at our minor league system, we have Ramirez and McBride waiting in the wings. Shoppach can play while these guys go through the system.
I don't want to get rid of Martinez and think it would be better to put him at first that way we can keep his bat, but I really like what I see out of Garko. He can flat out hit and he has in all levels. Martinez isnt a 25-35 homerun a year guy; so why keep him over a guy that can put up similar numbers in terms of average and RBI (I believe he will eventually consistenty hit above .300)
I say keep Blake and one of either Delucci or Michaels an fill the other spot with either Crowe, Snyder, Francisco, ect.
The only way I would consider trading Martinez is for some young prospect. I don't want a guy with 2 or 3 good years left.
My ideal line-up for next year or maybe 09 would be...
C, Shoppach (08), McBride (09)
1b, Garko
2b, Barfield
ss, Peralta
3b, Marte
LF, Crowe
CF, Grady
RF, Snyder, Gutierrez, and Choo all splitting time. Possibly Jordan Brown. I've heard some good things about this kid.
DH, Hafner
Starters - Sabathia, Sowers, Carmona, Miller, Lofgren. If Lee were still there then I would take it, but it baffles me why the re-signed Westbrook. They have Lofgren and Miller in the minors to take place of Byrd and Westbrook.
I am praying and waiting for this team to reach it's full capabilities. I think there is a lot of very good young talent on this team. By the way my batting order would likely look like this.
Crowe
Barfield
Sizemore
Hafner
Garko
Shoppach/McBride
Peralta
Marte (could be 5 or 6 if the bat comes alive, or 3 if he hit's like he was expected to.... moving Sizemore back into the leadoff spot.)
Snyder, Choo, ect.
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Quote:
but it baffles me why the re-signed Westbrook.
Pitching depth is priceless, and he is durable and reliable.
and I agree, I love the Idea of this heart of our lineup.
3.Sizemore
4. Hafner
5. Garko
I am talking about 3 guys who can hit 30 home runs a year each. I have high hopes for garko, someone dropped him for $4 in my keeper league early this year when he wasn't playing. Needless to say I waivered him.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum The Case for trading Victor
Martinez.
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