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It makes no difference what you would do if the Rams are willing to deal and the Texans aren't. I know I'm just pointing out the obvious, but sometimes that fact gets lost in these discussions (not directing that at you.)
That's true, but why would you talk about moving up to #2 and not to #1? If the 'trade value chart' guideline is what you're going to use and that's the difference that would be paid (providing that both teams would be willing to accept), why not pay the difference and give up the 2nd instead of the 4th and get the #1 overall pick.
However, there have been reports everywhere that Houston is already saying that they're willing to move the #1 overall pick. Personally, I wouldn't trade up to either spot.
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I'm sure they will get very serious offers. will it be enough for them is the question.
If it's the Vikings or Texans, the price would likely be their 1st and 2nd round picks this year and in 2015, and possibly a touch more. That's pricey...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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However, there have been reports everywhere that Houston is already saying that they're willing to move the #1 overall pick.
I'm with you; I don't think they'll move out of #1. If however, they do, it's because they believe they can get their target a few spots lower. Therefore, I believe their guy is Clowney...JMO.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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it may be the Texans that do the waiting so other offers can come in.
Knox: Do you really think the Texans will get a serious offer, or merely inquiries?
I think that all inquiries are taken seriously.
I'm not sure what they would be inquiring about really. The Texans owner has already said that they are willing to trade the #1 overall pick. Now, it'll all come down to offers and if they feel that those offers are adequate.
I think they're going to trade the #1 overall spot already and it only matters who gives them the most acceptable offer. If they don't get any acceptable offers, they'll hold pat and take someone, but I think they'll get an offer they find acceptable. I just hope it isn't from the Browns.
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My feeling is that if we were "ONLY" a QB away, then NO, it's not too much to pay. The trouble with that is, we are more than JUST a QB away
I agree that we have more holes than just QB but they aren't so many holes that we can't fix this offseason. having 6 PB's out of 22 starters should say something about the holes. we can still get a RB with the picks that's left and FA. same as OL, secondary, LB, WR.
we don't know how many of this years picks we would have to use. they could be spread out several years. we just don't know.
Two of our PB are FA's.. As I said, sign them, add a WR and RB in FA, pick up some OG's and a LB or two and then yeah, take the risk IF you like the guy you can get.
#GMSTRONG
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I'm not sure what they would be inquiring about really.
Whether their #1 is really available and secondly, what it would take. There may be a couple of teams that are simply curious. I should have used the term "firm offer" instead of "serious"....
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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However, there have been reports everywhere that Houston is already saying that they're willing to move the #1 overall pick.
I'm with you; I don't think they'll move out of #1.
I think that the Texas WILL move out of the #1 spot. I also don't think that it would take the type of picks that it cost Washington to go up to #2 to get RG3. That kind of trade, in my view, will never happen again. Even Dan Snyder isn't stupid enough to try that crap again.
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If however, they do, it's because they believe they can get their target a few spots lower. Therefore, I believe their guy is Clowney...JMO.
They may simply like the value of the selections they get in return.
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Whether their #1 is really available and secondly, what it would take.
Well, I think the question of whether it's available isn't in dispute. That's already a given. The cost to move up wouldn't be a consideration. I think that the Texas would simply would reply "What are you offering?"
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There may be a couple of teams that are simply curious. I should have used the term "firm offer" instead of "serious"....
Well, isn't a 'firm offer' a serious offer? It may not be enough for the Texans, but it would be from the team making the offer.
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I also don't make the trade until draft day.
You're correct in that, but it might happen a day or two prior. I don't believe at this point, that Houston is moving out of #1...
I don't think that they're moving either...However, with that said, I think that could move out of the #1 spot if they get an offer that they like.
You're waffling about whether or not they're staying at #1. Hard to have a discussion if you're going to let semantics rule the roost...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I know the thinking is you can find guards later in the draft. Well, that hasn't worked all that well for us. I'd like to see what some 2nd and 3rd round players would do at the position.
This times 100. We need two gaurds IMO. I have hope Gilkey develops, I think he could strive at gaurd. He's big and Nasty. But I want two of the best from this draft, or bring in a FA and draft one.
#gmstrong
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Everyone needs to keep a close on eye on the Rams.
Best three, not including QB's, in this draft are Clowney, Matthews, and Robinson. You can argue Watkins. Fisher is not known for drafting OL in the first. If I'm not mistaken, I don't think ever drafted a OL in the first. Fisher is in the same boat as Cleveland needing a flanker or z-receiver opposite Tavon Austin. I also don't see Rams drafting two top 10 receivers.
This leaves Clowney as the ideal candidate, but wait Rams already have two exceptional DE's Quinn, who just led the league in sacks, and Long.
To me, they stand the best possible chance trading down a spot or two getting additional first round picks. Don't forget they already have two first rounds Washington's and their own. They have an opportunity getting a OT, S, WR, and another LB.
For those thinking Bradford is washed up, I see none of the QB in this draft being a step above Bradford. Besides Bradford is several years experience. Rams make a huge swing beefing up everything in the first two rounds.
Rams will trade that second pick giving any taker who wants a QB or Clowney. Remember teams can also trade a player(s) for that second pick too.
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I disagree w/almost everything you are insinuating in your posts.
First of all, Washington moved up from 6 to 2. Not 4 to 2.
Secondly, almost everyone has expressed that Washington got fleeced in that deal and it's been said many times that a trade like that will not happen again.
Finally, RGIII is taller, but he has chicken legs. Manziel is more solid. But, even giving you the size, arm, etc............RGIII made one read in college. Throw it to that guy or run. Manziel will go through his progressions. He can actually read coverages. And I am sorry, but I would rather have Johnny Football's attitude on the field than the diva RGIII.
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Secondly, almost everyone has expressed that Washington got fleeced in that deal and it's been said many times that a trade like that will not happen again.
I think this is revisionist history. If RGIII hadn't gotten hurt this trade would be pretty fair.
Also, I think that if a team fell in love with a QB they would definitely make the same trade the Rams made.
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First of all, Washington moved up from 6 to 2. Not 4 to 2.
We offered almost as much as the Redskins offered and we were at pick four. We didn't offer the second round pick at first, but then after the bidding was over Holmgren went back and offered it.
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You know what, guys........... you're killing me. LOL What was the mantra after Chud got fired? I read this hundreds of times: How could you expect him to win w/out a QB? I have also read many of you guys complaining about our poor quarterback play for decades. Now, we are finally in a position to draft a good qb and you are getting cold feet.  cfrs15 won't like this, but think about this: We could get a top flight QB basically for this: Our choice at #4, TRich, and the 4th round pick we acquired by moving up in last year's draft. And you don't want to do that? Really? All Aboard the QB Train!!!
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I don't think what I have said is revisionist at all. I have heard that stated many times and people said don't expect to see a team give up that much again.
I do think the comment about Holmgren is revisionist history, though. He says he made that offer and then offered some BS excuse about Fisher liking Washington better. I never did believe that story. There was never any proof of it.
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For what it is worth I would make the RG3 trade pre-injury as well.
I would certainly give up the same amount for Bridgewater and Manziel.
If all we are talking about is #4 and #26 plus a 4th rounder that is an absolute no brainer.
I don't care if it creates holes all over the roster. I want a QB and I want it now.
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Our choice at #4, TRich, and the 4th round pick we acquired by moving up in last year's draft. And you don't want to do that? Really?
We still have Richardson?!?!
(I would do the trade you are talking about, it's just a poor way of portraying).
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I have heard that stated many times and people said don't expect to see a team give up [as much as Washington did] again.
Never question what teams are willing to do to get a QB. What if there was a prospect like Andrew Luck in this draft and the team drafting first didn't need a QB, would you trade three first round picks and a second round pick to get him? I would.
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I acknowledged that you wouldn't like that reasoning, but it's not all about you. There have been several posters who disagree w/you about that. You may not like it, but that reasoning is very valid to us.
I do get what you are saying about Luck and what teams might do, however, I was arguing w/those who were saying that the Washington trade should be the norm. It isn't.
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You may not like it, but that reasoning is very valid to us.
I am not saying it isn't valid to you. I am saying it is wrong.
Since Trent Richardson was the third overall pick, the trade is actually our fourth pick this year, the third overall pick from 2012, and a fourth rounder.
It is much easier to talk yourself into making the trade when you devalue what one of the picks is actually worth. Most people want a QB and have no problem actually giving up the 26th pick in order to get one.
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It's wrong in your mind. Just drop it. We disagree.
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It's wrong in your mind. Just drop it. We disagree.
Nope it's wrong. Period. Some people just have bad logic it certain areas.
Subject dropped.
I am excited to see what Shanahan does with Hoyer and our new rookie QB. Hoyer has said that he has talked to Kirk Cousins (his backup at Michigan State) about Shanhan's offense. So it seems like he will have a pretty big leg up on the rookie between that, pre-draft off-season camps, and knowing who his offensive coordinator will be (obviously the rookie won't know until he is drafted).
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Our choice at #4, TRich, and the 4th round pick we acquired by moving up in last year's draft.
If that's all it took, it might be worth while to do a deal if the FO likes someone enough, That leaves us with a pick in every round and that's not a bad thing.
We could still fill some holes with our second and third that should  contribute right away. The remaining 4th thru 7th picks can be some flyers.
Add to that a few FA's and it could be just fine.
I question two things:
1. Is that all it's going to take to move to 2?
2. Are any of the top QB's worth that?
And NO, I'm not afraid to take a QB. I've said this about a million times. I just don't like giving up a boat load of picks for a guy unless you feel he's a "Can't Miss" guy and I am not convinced there is a guy like that in this draft.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I kind of agree with your line of thinking.
While it is the correct deal according to the draft value board, I don't believe that will matter. I'm not saying it will take an "RG3 type deal", but the market will dictate the price.
I don't believe we will be the only team looking to move up and the competitive bidding process will drive the price far more than the draft value board.
I would however be more willing to move up to insure we get Bridgewater than I would to pay slightly less to move up for Manziel. To an extent I agree with some of the questionable points made in his evaluations.
I would consider paying a little more for less risk. I don't mind Manziels confidence and moxy, but it takes far more than those traits to succeed.
I'm not saying Manziel can't or won't succeed. I simply believe that Bridgewater is a much more complete QB.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I don't think that there is a can't miss player ever. Even Andrew Luck. Rookie year someone roles up and takes out his knee then he gets a staph infection … Or perhaps the Colts keep Caldwell another year then fire hime and bring in a new HC with a New OC with a completely different offensive system Then in 1-2 years that HC gets fired and there is another new offensive system put in place … Or he tears his rotator cuff … or we find out later that he has attitude issues or a drinking problem … or once he gets a fat paycheck he decides that he doesn't want to put the efforet in.
Luck was about as sure a thing as you will ever find but not can't miss.
I really like Bridgewater. I think he will be a top 3rd of the league Qb. I would take him over Bradford, Ryan, Eli, Stafford and RGIII to name a few.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Ha! Didn't think I was insinuating much of anything. Just trying to say that I don't want Manziel at 4, much less trading up for him. And I don't think you would get to 2 with two #1's and a 4th. From 4 to 1 would take an RGIII type deal, imo.
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And I don't think you would get to 2 with two #1's and a 4th. From 4 to 1 would take an RGIII type deal, imo.
I agree.
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And I don't think you would get to 2 with two #1's and a 4th. From 4 to 1 would take an RGIII type deal, imo.
I agree.
Do you believe the RGIII trade, in retrospect, was worth it? Also, would you do a similar deal this coming draft to move from #4 to #1?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Do you believe the RGIII trade, in retrospect, was worth it? Also, would you do a similar deal this coming draft to move from #4 to #1?
I wouldn't, not because of what happened to RGIII, but because the talent level is just not there. We all agree that there are no Lucks or RG's in this draft yet were still debating about giving up a boat load of picks for lesser talent. We should draft the BPA. Now if a QB falls to #4 and we want to take a chance then fine, do it. But to give away high picks just to take a chance on sub par talent is not smart.
Last edited by bleednbrown; 02/15/14 08:13 PM.
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Yeah bleed, but neither is throwing chumps out there to run the offense.
I'd definitely give both our firsts and a later pick for a QB who has a football mind and can make all the throws. Or else, who do we put on the field for the future? We really can't count on Hoyer even though he sure seemed to have "it". All we really have with him is the HOPE he can play a whole season like he played the beginning of the last one. I'd sure like to have something besides a total project QB to fall back on.
#gmstrong
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I also don't make the trade until draft day.
You're correct in that, but it might happen a day or two prior. I don't believe at this point, that Houston is moving out of #1...
I don't think that they're moving either...However, with that said, I think that could move out of the #1 spot if they get an offer that they like.
You're waffling about whether or not they're staying at #1. Hard to have a discussion if you're going to let semantics rule the roost...
I've given things a bit more consideration. I'm trying to convince myself what the Texans truly intend. But, the owner has already come out saying that they are willing to deal the #1 overall pick. I think they eventually will. I think someone will do it. If no team does, I have no doubts that they will have a back-up plan that doesn't including taking any of the QBs at #1 overall.
If I were the Texans, I would probably trade out of the spot and I might even do it for a lower offer than others would expect.
For example, if a team like Jacksonville offered their 1st and 2nd rounders, I would probably accept if I were the Texans. The reason: I could get a first round talent at the Jacksonville 2nd round spot and I would also get either of the tackles or Clowney at #3, no matter who Jacksonville picked at #1. It would be virtually be a trade for two draft slots for an additional first rounder.
I might do the same for the Browns, although the Browns would actually be better because we draft #3 (not #7 like Jacksonville) in the 2nd, although falling back to #4 gives up an additional spot in the first round.
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I don't think that there is a can't miss player ever.
Hindsight is 20/20 Jester. I think if you take out of your mind what players turned into, you might be able to see what my thinking is.
There may not actually be such a player, but there are many who have been labeled that way... You don't want me to list them.
Some have been correctly been termed Can't miss or sure thing (the manning brothers, Luck, Elway) some haven't, (Leaf, Smith and maybe bradford).
You can't look at what might happen to them (outside of injury based on their history or physical stature or lack thereof which would effect how they were thought of) Changing of coaching, Drinking issues.. that's not in the mix unless it shows up BEFORE the draft,
When I say Can't Miss or to use your words, Sure thing, I'm speaking of how they are viewed Pre Draft not after they've played in the NFL.
Bottom line, you may not think of them as Can't Miss or Sure thing, but they are, by and large, thought of in those terms.
I don't know if that makes sense to you, but I hope so.
#GMSTRONG
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I get what you are saying. Question is who determines who is a can't miss player?
One of my pet peeves is the over exaggeration the talking heads use which then filter down to us regular folk. Can't miss player, franchise QB, shutdown corner … I just have standards that are much higher for these terms than most.
Same way I feel about the Hall of Fame. It is the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Very Good. I think that only the elite of the elite should get in. If you look at a player and say I can make a pretty good argument for them to get in then I don't think that player belongs. You shouldn't have to make an argument for a player to get in. If he deserves to be in the Hall it should be pretty self evident to even the most casual observer (exception might be offensive linemen). But that is just my opinion.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
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I get what you are saying. Question is who determines who is a can't miss player?
One of my pet peeves is the over exaggeration the talking heads use which then filter down to us regular folk. Can't miss player, franchise QB, shutdown corner … I just have standards that are much higher for these terms than most.
Same way I feel about the Hall of Fame. It is the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Very Good. I think that only the elite of the elite should get in. If you look at a player and say I can make a pretty good argument for them to get in then I don't think that player belongs. You shouldn't have to make an argument for a player to get in. If he deserves to be in the Hall it should be pretty self evident to even the most casual observer (exception might be offensive linemen). But that is just my opinion.
LOL,, well there is that, Who determines who is and who isn't a Can't Miss/Sure thing player? The age old question!
You hear it from the talking heads, you hear it from the guy next door, you hear it from folks on this and other boards.
Some are very reliable, some write to hear themselves type I think. I also understand your high standards. I honestly wish there was a scale to use, like when you are weighing yourself. You know, just the raw data that is irrefutable. There isn't.
It's all guess work. And as unsettling as that may be, it is all we have to go on. That's why they refer to the draft as a crap shoot.
If you get the majority of input from various sources that all say Teddy Bridgewater is a can't miss guy, chances are still at best 50/50 at best.
LOL. And to make matters even more interesting, What if we would had taken a guy like Payton Manning (I know, that wasn't an option), and you put nothing around him, do you think he'd be the superstar that he turned out to be. LIke I said, crap shoot with so many factors involved. Would he even sniff the HOF?
So while you don't see any such thing as a Sure thing or Can't Miss, others, the ones that do this for a living, probably do. And that's what we're talking about. And yeah, we're guessing at what they are guessing. Try and wrap your head around that one LOL
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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j/c:
A few things:
--I disagree w/the statement that said "the talent level is just not there." It is there. This is one of the better qb drafts in recent memory.
--I disagree that Teddy isn't as good as RGIII. I think he is better. He actually can read defenses and coverages.
--It's a crap shoot on every player. Clowney isn't a sure thing. Neither is Matthews or Watkins.
--Why bring up Manning and wonder what would have happened had he not had talent around him? What about the 6 Pro Bowlers you guys are always bragging about?
--We need a qb. Draft one.
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j/c:
A few things:
--I disagree w/the statement that said "the talent level is just not there." It is there. This is one of the better qb drafts in recent memory.
--I disagree that Teddy isn't as good as RGIII. I think he is better. He actually can read defenses and coverages.
--It's a crap shoot on every player. Clowney isn't a sure thing. Neither is Matthews or Watkins.
--Why bring up Manning and wonder what would have happened had he not had talent around him? What about the 6 Pro Bowlers you guys are always bragging about?
--We need a qb. Draft one.
First of all, can you do me a favor, if you are responding to something I've written, PLEASE do a quote of what I said so I can at least be reasonable with my response to you.
Second, we need a QB, DRAFT ONE.. Sounds like the thinking of a desperate man.,
You draft a QB that you believe it when you find him, not just to draft one.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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I think more than definitely worth the Investments.
Talent not there? The kid has an arm, very accurate, all QBs have to transition into the reads. He made everyone better. His OL sucked. He ran way too much its easy for you guys to say what you are saying because of the outcome of season 2. He was INCREDIBLE actually the best rookie QB maybe EVER until he got hurt and then he came back way to fast if you ask me. I just don't get it. The deal was made for THE INCREDIBLE ROOKIE QB that we saw. before the injury.
If we made the deal would he still be healthy...hard to say yes when we got Hoyer out. But that was one messed up slide he did. He would have had the benefit of Joe Thomas. He would have had the time to throw in the pocket that he didn't have in and for us we wouldn't have had WHAT? Trent, Weeden and Mingo - the latter being the only one worth spit! We still would have had Gordon, Cameron, Schwartz...who knows what RB we would have picked up in the Mid rounds. Also a Benjamin. Morris in Wash is not a great RB or anything it definitely was a case of RG3 making somebody look better than who he is.
jmho definitely worth it! 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
j/c:
A few things:
--I disagree w/the statement that said "the talent level is just not there." It is there. This is one of the better qb drafts in recent memory.
--I disagree that Teddy isn't as good as RGIII. I think he is better. He actually can read defenses and coverages.
--It's a crap shoot on every player. Clowney isn't a sure thing. Neither is Matthews or Watkins.
--Why bring up Manning and wonder what would have happened had he not had talent around him? What about the 6 Pro Bowlers you guys are always bragging about?
--We need a qb. Draft one.
Don't worry, the Browns will draft a QB. I just don't think that it's one of the 'Top 3' and it won't be with the #4 overall selection. I also don't think that the Browns will be moving up in the draft from #4 to #1, #2 or #3 either.
Just my take on things. Of course, I'm in the minority - again. But I don't mind. It isn't like the past regimes or fans ever listened to what I had to say. They drafted who they wanted or tried to do what the fans wanted and settled for much less. It's continually led to 4-12 or 5-11 seasons. It doesn't matter if the front office was changed, a new coaching staff was brought in or anything else that changed.
I just saw players that I wanted the team to have get passed on by the Browns and get drafted by other teams and be successes elsewhere.
I'll give kudos when I think they're deserved and when I was against the decision. Taking Josh Gordon in the supplemental draft. Although they could have gotten him with a 3rd rounder, they gave up a 2nd. If he can stay clean, it'll have been a draft pick well spent.
When they selected John Hughes. I didn't agree with it. He's been worthy of the 3rd round pick.
Selecting Billy Winn with a compensatory 6th round pick was, I thought, a steal. He's easily been worth the 6th rounder spent on him.
When they drafted Travis Benjamin with a 4th rounder, I thought it was a bit of a stretch. Prior to the injury he suffered last season, he's actually done fairly decently. I don't think that using a 4th rounder on a return man is the best idea, but he was productive as a receiver too. Prior to the injury, he had 23 receptions, 17 of them resulting in first downs (74%) and 8 receptions (35%) going for 20 yards or more.
Hopefully he can fully recover from the injury and be back at full speed.
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Legend
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Quote:
Second, we need a QB, DRAFT ONE.. Sounds like the thinking of a desperate man.,
If this team isn't desperate for a QB, then I don't know what team could ever be. The QB position has been an anchor, dragging this team down to the depths, and drowning everyone in its wake for years.
Now I am not saying that we should go draft just any QB in the 1st round, but there are 3 QB in this draft who carry a 1st round grade .... at least according to most draft information I have read.
We are desperate for a QB. We should draft one each and every year until we find the right one. We will go nowhere without the right QB. Not in the AFCN. I don't want to settle for a schlub QB and maybe battling it out for 3rd place. We need to find the right guy, and then we can challenge for the top of the division.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
--Why bring up Manning and wonder what would have happened had he not had talent around him? What about the 6 Pro Bowlers you guys are always bragging about?
Daman's comment was addressed to me as a hypothetical as part of a conversation we were having as to what constitutes a "can't miss" player. If you look back at my post a few before his, you can see how it fits in.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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I realize that it's hard for you to keep up, but I was replying to several statements that were made since the last time I posted. One of your statements was included. I did not want to make a separate post for each statement.
Desperate man? I have studied these QBs and I find them to be excellent prospects. Have you studied them? No, you read a thing here or there and then make an "expert" opinion while dismissing those of us who did study them.
Sounds like the thinking of a foolish man.
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