|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856 |
one concern with bulking up is that the larger muscles can "over p[ower" the smaller twitching muscles and those are ones that generate the initial movement of the body and are where the quickness is found.
That is the last thing he needs, that said, I could see him adding 7 pounds of muscle mass to his frame without any static effect on his quickness.
I agree Vers most of his problems seem to be on the mental side, he reminds me a lot of the problems Shread had his first season, lose containment, too far up field etc. Those things can be fixed with coaching and experience.
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I agree and Sheard still has those problems. He did the same things as Mingo in terms of losing containment this year, but most people seemed to ignore that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
I don't think Mingo even needs to be a 3-down players.
Lowered expectations season has officially begun...brought to you by Liberty Ford 
If you need someone else to play the other 50% of his snaps at his position, then it was a wasted pick already at 6th overall.
Would you be ok with Haden being an AllPro Nickel-CB who plays on 50-60% of the snaps? Yeah, thought so...
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856 |
yeah, I thought he regressed a little this past year. But then I wondered if it was a scheme thing. Some times he seemed like he was meant to go up field to perfect some type of contain, but it gave running lanes under him and outside the OL B / DE, a classic faux paus in some schemes that give a cut back lane when trying to contain.
Some of that is indicative of a coach not being comfortable with his LB play and is trying to force the RB back into pursuit, but as we have seen ... too far upfield gives too much room and the LB can not get there in time, especially if they are needed in underneath coverage to support the safety play and we know our safeties were not the best at coverage. So it all connects.
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I wasn't dissing him. I thought he played pretty good. He just had some of the same issues as Mingo did. I think that people seemed to really focus in on Mingo's blunders way more than they did w/other players.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,342
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,342 |
Quote:
j/c:
Getting back to Mingo.......
I agree w/Memphis in that I am not sure it's such a great idea to have Mingo bulk up. I don't think his issues were from a lack of strength. He displayed plenty of strength during the season. I saw him fling a RB to the ground. Long, rangy muscles can usually produce more power than those bulky ones.
I am not saying he should not work on getting stronger, because that will help him at the point of attack. I am saying putting a significant amount of weight on him might not be such a good idea.
I think Mingo's issues were between his ears. He would sometimes forget to maintain outside containment. He took some poor angles. Playing a new position w/many new responsibilities was part of it. Discipline was another.
His strength is the fact that he really quick off the ball. He runs extremely well. He has decent instincts and he plays w/a good motor. I think you try to get him stronger--as you do w/any player---but you don't bulk him up which in turn might hurt his positives.
I don't think Mingo even needs to be a 3-down players. Man, Atlanta used Abraham perfectly several years ago. He didn't play on first down, but he came in and wreaked havoc on passing downs. We have Sheard,Kruger, and Groves. There is no reason not to use all four of these guys. It's not about the number of snaps they play, it's about how effective they are when they are on the field.
Mingo can be one of those guys that changes games around and teams have to plan for. I wouldn't change too much about him and I certainly would not bulk him up.
+ 1
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
j/c:
Getting back to Mingo.......
I agree w/Memphis in that I am not sure it's such a great idea to have Mingo bulk up. I don't think his issues were from a lack of strength. He displayed plenty of strength during the season. I saw him fling a RB to the ground. Long, rangy muscles can usually produce more power than those bulky ones.
I am not saying he should not work on getting stronger, because that will help him at the point of attack. I am saying putting a significant amount of weight on him might not be such a good idea.
I think Mingo's issues were between his ears. He would sometimes forget to maintain outside containment. He took some poor angles. Playing a new position w/many new responsibilities was part of it. Discipline was another.
His strength is the fact that he really quick off the ball. He runs extremely well. He has decent instincts and he plays w/a good motor. I think you try to get him stronger--as you do w/any player---but you don't bulk him up which in turn might hurt his positives.
I don't think Mingo even needs to be a 3-down players. Man, Atlanta used Abraham perfectly several years ago. He didn't play on first down, but he came in and wreaked havoc on passing downs. We have Sheard,Kruger, and Groves. There is no reason not to use all four of these guys. It's not about the number of snaps they play, it's about how effective they are when they are on the field.
Mingo can be one of those guys that changes games around and teams have to plan for. I wouldn't change too much about him and I certainly would not bulk him up.
I don't think it would hurt Mingo to have a few extra pounds on him but I agree that most of his problems were between the ears. He needs more coaching and I'm not sure that he was getting the amount that he should have gotten.
He needs more coaching, but more precisely, proper coaching. I'm not sure that he got it last season.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
Quote:
Quote:
j/c:
Getting back to Mingo.......
I agree w/Memphis in that I am not sure it's such a great idea to have Mingo bulk up. I don't think his issues were from a lack of strength. He displayed plenty of strength during the season. I saw him fling a RB to the ground. Long, rangy muscles can usually produce more power than those bulky ones.
I am not saying he should not work on getting stronger, because that will help him at the point of attack. I am saying putting a significant amount of weight on him might not be such a good idea.
I think Mingo's issues were between his ears. He would sometimes forget to maintain outside containment. He took some poor angles. Playing a new position w/many new responsibilities was part of it. Discipline was another.
His strength is the fact that he really quick off the ball. He runs extremely well. He has decent instincts and he plays w/a good motor. I think you try to get him stronger--as you do w/any player---but you don't bulk him up which in turn might hurt his positives.
I don't think Mingo even needs to be a 3-down players. Man, Atlanta used Abraham perfectly several years ago. He didn't play on first down, but he came in and wreaked havoc on passing downs. We have Sheard,Kruger, and Groves. There is no reason not to use all four of these guys. It's not about the number of snaps they play, it's about how effective they are when they are on the field.
Mingo can be one of those guys that changes games around and teams have to plan for. I wouldn't change too much about him and I certainly would not bulk him up.
I don't think it would hurt Mingo to have a few extra pounds on him but I agree that most of his problems were between the ears. He needs more coaching and I'm not sure that he was getting the amount that he should have gotten.
He needs more coaching, but more precisely, proper coaching. I'm not sure that he got it last season.
Did you listen to O'neils one on one interview on the main site. LOL,, I guess the Bills were kinda hoping he'd drop to them so I'd assume that Pettine and O'neil are very excited about him being here... 10 lbs or not 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,181
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,181 |
Quote:
Did you listen to O'neils one on one interview on the main site. LOL,, I guess the Bills were kinda hoping he'd drop to them so I'd assume that Pettine and O'neil are very excited about him being here... 10 lbs or not
Yea, that answers one debate "Browns reaching when they drafted Mingo." I think in years to come will be very happy B/L drafted him. I vision Mingo comes into his own similar to Quinn for the Rams.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
Quote:
Quote:
Did you listen to O'neils one on one interview on the main site. LOL,, I guess the Bills were kinda hoping he'd drop to them so I'd assume that Pettine and O'neil are very excited about him being here... 10 lbs or not
Yea, that answers one debate "Browns reaching when they drafted Mingo." I think in years to come will be very happy B/L drafted him. I vision Mingo comes into his own similar to Quinn for the Rams.
How did you get that we reached for him at 6.. They were picking at 8 and hoped he'd be there....
But yeah, I am pretty sure we'll be very happy with him in years to come.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447 |
Many said the Browns reached. He is saying this proves they didn't.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
Quote:
Many said the Browns reached. He is saying this proves they didn't.
Ahh I misunderstood
Thanks
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Quote:
I am really puzzled by the idea that these guys can easily stack on 10-20 pounds of muscle. It goes against what I've read from guys like Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon who actually train these guys muscular growth potential
But it is such a common recommendation that I can't help but think these guys are either genetic freaks who can gain muscle very easily, they come into the league dramatically undertrained, or it is a wink wink situation that everyone is on steroids.
I thought that Mingo's struggles last year were more between his ears in keeping contain etc. I'm not that optimistic for Mingo to be a top pass rusher in this league, but that wouldn't be the end of the world. It will be interesting to see how he develops.
It is more complicated than you are making it out to be. Those numbers are basically meant for lean, natural men. Some of the models make reference to 5% and 10% bodyfat which is MUCH less than people realize. 5% is like a bodybuilder in or near competition shape and not a single NFL player is that low. There are probably quite a few WRs/DBs in the high single digits though (think Julio Jones.)
Don't be fooled by basketball players who measure in at 3% or whatever. You're almost dead at that point and it is often the result of people who are unskilled at using calipers.
Lyle really should make that more clear with his numbers (I happen to be a poster on that site.)
Also people casually throw out the whole, 'gain 10 pounds of muscle' thing but in reality there is almost always some fat gain to go along with muscle gain. Maybe lean body mass gain would be more accurate because not all non-fat gain is muscle gain. So you might have a WR who is 10% BF at 200lb and a lineman who is 20% BF at 300lb. That is 180 lean and 240 LBM respectively, and as a player gains weight if 60% of it is lean body mass, he is doing reasonably well. So if a player gains 15lb and only 6lb of it is fat, that is pretty good work.
Of course a lot of these guys are coming in and still have room to improve, they are drafted in their early 20s after all, so in many cases you see better than that.
There is also the drugs thing. Those numbers were meant for NATURAL men (i.e. not using PEDs) but the NFL drug testing procedure is a joke. It is common knowledge that HGH use is rampant in the NFL and they don't even test for it. Granted, no testing procedure will catch all of the cheaters but it can help curtail systemic abuse. I gaurantee you that if you brought in WADA style drug testing to the NFL, a lot of the 'natural' freaks in the league wouldn't be so freakish anymore. That's reality.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447 |
Josh Gordon has 3% BF. Supposedly. Just sayin'
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447 |
It was reported pre-draft. I didn't say it personally. Don't be a disrespectful punk.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Quote:
It was reported pre-draft. I didn't say it personally. Don't be a disrespectful punk.
Ok then.
There are flaws in certain bodyfat measurement techniques. One is simply that many trainers are terrible with calipers. You can read about some more on site that was linked above: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/problems-with-measuring-body-composition.html
Getting down to 3% is neither ideal nor desirable for any athlete, ever (save for competition bodybuilders, and using the term 'athlete' there is stretching it, as there are no performance objectives.) I don't doubt that it was reported that he had 3% bodyfat (similar claims are often made with basketball players which is why I specifically mentioned that), but he isn't nearly that low.
Upper left is what 3% bodyfat looks like *NSFW*: http://cdn.builtlean.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/ideal-body-fat-percentage-pictures.jpg
We don't have overly revealing pics of JG (thankfully) but take a look at his arms: https://www.google.com/search?q=josh+gor...009&bih=632
nowhere near that lean (and that's not a bad thing, football players shouldn't be overly lean). You see smoothness on his arms so if he's in the single digits bodyfat %, it's not by much.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
|
|
~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Did you listen to O'neils one on one interview on the main site. LOL,, I guess the Bills were kinda hoping he'd drop to them so I'd assume that Pettine and O'neil are very excited about him being here... 10 lbs or not
Yea, that answers one debate "Browns reaching when they drafted Mingo." I think in years to come will be very happy B/L drafted him. I vision Mingo comes into his own similar to Quinn for the Rams.
How did you get that we reached for him at 6.. They were picking at 8 and hoped he'd be there....
But yeah, I am pretty sure we'll be very happy with him in years to come.
I'm not of the same mind when it comes to Mingo. He may prove to be a valuable player for us, but he is still behind Kruger and Sheard on the depth chart. I'm just a bit frustrated that we have 3 good players, but can only fill them in two positions. I think Mingo will be good, but I'm not sure if he'll be better than Kruger or Sheard.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
I kind of covered all those topics in my post man 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Lol, I guess you pretty much did. Reading is hard. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Did you listen to O'neils one on one interview on the main site. LOL,, I guess the Bills were kinda hoping he'd drop to them so I'd assume that Pettine and O'neil are very excited about him being here... 10 lbs or not
I'm sure that they are. I heard O'Neil saying that his wife had made Mingo cupcakes because the Bills were hoping that he would fall to them at #8. LOL
I like Mingo. I like him better than a lot of other Browns players on the defensive side of the ball.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
How did you get that we reached for him at 6.. They were picking at 8 and hoped he'd be there....
But yeah, I am pretty sure we'll be very happy with him in years to come.
I don't think that bugs was saying that the Browns reached on him, but you'll remember that many people (including a fair number on this very site) had all kinds of negative things to say about Mingo following the season.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
You are really right about bodyfat percentage. Which isn't unsurprising since you are quoting from Lyle, you gotta have something going right if you got those sources. 3% isn't really a functional body fat percentage for athletics. From what I remember dipping below 8% isn't really functional for athletics. I seem to recall most of these guys hover around 10-15%. At the really low numbers you start losing the fat that is there to protect your organs, the fat that you need for your metabolism to function, etc. etc. it isn't a state that can be maintained or should be maintained beyond very brief freakshow appearances. No one is stupid for not knowing this. Knowing exact body fat measurements for athletics isn't really necessary to watch a sport, or even to be fairly knowledgeable about it. I think all people need to know is that if you want to be hot in the nude you need to shoot for 10% bf (maybe up to 15-17%). Which is somewhere between 13-20 pounds of fat for most people edit: reducing my emoticon usage so as to appear 42% less like a teenage girl.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Did you listen to O'neils one on one interview on the main site. LOL,, I guess the Bills were kinda hoping he'd drop to them so I'd assume that Pettine and O'neil are very excited about him being here... 10 lbs or not
Yea, that answers one debate "Browns reaching when they drafted Mingo." I think in years to come will be very happy B/L drafted him. I vision Mingo comes into his own similar to Quinn for the Rams.
How did you get that we reached for him at 6.. They were picking at 8 and hoped he'd be there....
But yeah, I am pretty sure we'll be very happy with him in years to come.
I'm not of the same mind when it comes to Mingo. He may prove to be a valuable player for us, but he is still behind Kruger and Sheard on the depth chart. I'm just a bit frustrated that we have 3 good players, but can only fill them in two positions. I think Mingo will be good, but I'm not sure if he'll be better than Kruger or Sheard.
I know what you mean, but then I consider that Mingo got off to a very rocky start with that freak injury. I'm not sure how much that had to do with his overall production but that can't be a positive.
I don't want to judge to harshly just yet.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Quote:
You are really right about bodyfat percentage. Which isn't unsurprising since you are quoting from Lyle, you gotta have something going right if you got those sources.
3% isn't really a functional body fat percentage for athletics. From what I remember dipping below 8% isn't really functional for athletics. I seem to recall most of these guys hover around 10-15%. At the really low numbers you start losing the fat that is there to protect your organs, the fat that you need for your metabolism to function, etc. etc. it isn't a state that can be maintained or should be maintained beyond very brief freakshow appearances.
No one is stupid for not knowing this. Knowing exact body fat measurements for athletics isn't really necessary to watch a sport, or even to be fairly knowledgeable about it. I think all people need to know is that if you want to be hot in the nude you need to shoot for 10% bf (maybe up to 15-17%). Which is somewhere between 13-20 pounds of fat for most people
edit: reducing my emoticon usage so as to appear 42% less like a teenage girl.
Yeah Lyle is a really bright guy who has a wide range of knowledge on a lot of topics associated with general health/fitness/muscle gain/fat loss. Those things have been a hobby of mine for a long time and he is one of my go to sources for information.
You're right about the bodyfat % thing. It's hard to generalize for football players because different positions have different physical needs so you would really have to go by the ideal per position. But even talking about wide receiver/cornerback, I still agree with you that it wouldn't be ideal to go much below 8% or so. Mind you 8% on a guy with decent lean body mass is shredded, but you're already getting into the territory of dropping test levels, bodyfat is a cushion of sorts, helps with mechanical leverage at the joints, etc. The human body isn't meant to function at 5% bodyfat; you're well into starvation mode territory at that point.
And nobody is stupid for not knowing this. I would only expect a very, very small amount of people to really be familiar with it. I only know it because it has been an area of interest of mine for so long (I guess you could say I'm a casual/non-competitive bodybuilder, but I hate the word bodybuilder for its association with roided up mass monsters, bad tans and worse thongs, socially awkward tendencies etc. and none of that remotely applies to me.)
I think your numbers of 10 to 15-17ish% is a good general number for men to be healthy and look good. Higher for old guys.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Anyway, about Mingo, he should gain weight. I made that comment many times during games. Now, it's not going to be 20 pounds of solid muscle, but as a 6'4" 3-4 OLB, he definitely has room to fill out his frame so to speak. Obviously the balance there is not gaining too much weight that he loses too much quickness/exposiveness.
If he played at 240 last season then maybe 250-260 range might be appropriate and that might take more than one off-season to do (and again, not all of that is going to be muscle.) Those are just estimates based off of watching games and going off listed height/listed weight, which are often inaccurate.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547 |
I have a hard time believing that Mingo was 240# last year. I would put him probably closer to 230# for most of the year.
He had that injury that he suffered in training camp, and then moved directly on to the season. It seems like it would be really hard to gain weight during the season, and it seems like many players drop size slightly as the year progresses. Even just maintaining weight would probably be a challenge for many players.
I have no idea what Mingo's diet and training regimen is .... though I would expect that he could add a small amount of "good" weight. However, I think that the only way he hits 260#, for example, would be to get fat.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Quote:
I have a hard time believing that Mingo was 240# last year. I would put him probably closer to 230# for most of the year.
He had that injury that he suffered in training camp, and then moved directly on to the season. It seems like it would be really hard to gain weight during the season, and it seems like many players drop size slightly as the year progresses. Even just maintaining weight would probably be a challenge for many players.
I have no idea what Mingo's diet and training regimen is .... though I would expect that he could add a small amount of "good" weight. However, I think that the only way he hits 260#, for example, would be to get fat.
Those are excellent points.
It's really hard to peg down accurate numbers. If he indeed was playing closer to 230, which is very possible, then 260 would definitely be overkill. I wish players' training regimens were more available but there's obviously a competitive standpoint to consider.
It's a side of the NFL that is rarely talked about but it makes a big difference. Look at San Francisco. Their team is strong, they are fast, they are nasty. Some of that is picking the right players but some teams prepare their players better than others and it goes beyond the on-field coaching. I would pay big money to get their strength and conditioning coach over here. But alas, I'm not in charge of the Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Quote:
I have a hard time believing that Mingo was 240# last year. I would put him probably closer to 230# for most of the year.
I wouldn't be shocked, he looked small out there. Thankful for jersey numbers cause he always looked like a corner or safety up in the box.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
I have a hard time believing that Mingo was 240# last year. I would put him probably closer to 230# for most of the year.
I wouldn't be shocked, he looked small out there. Thankful for jersey numbers cause he always looked like a corner or safety up in the box.
I would be equally shocked...no...decidedly more shocked...to hear that he's going to be able to put on 20 pounds of muscle. He isn't some big-framed guy who is seriously lacking bulk. He's a thinly-framed guy for the NFL, and adding 10 pounds isn't going to make a big difference IMHO.
To me his weight isn't the problem. His problem is his lack of desire to get in there and try to be physical. In that aspect much of what I saw on the field looked almost cowardly. He's not at all interested in sticking his head into people and mixing it up. He needs to be challenged to get tougher, not bigger.
Mingo will never be any good against the run. That's not why he was drafted. He's never going to be Aldon Smith or anything remotely close. His ceiling is that of a speed-freak who can create havoc in that manner, but if he doesn't learn more pass-rush moves and a strong desire to at least be willing to use leverage and get physical he's going to fail.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Aldon Smith is a good example of where Mingo should be physically, or at least close. It just looks like Smith has a bigger frame because Mingo is so lean. Look at pics of Aldon Smith when he played at Missouri. They look strikingly similar to Mingo at LSU and his rookie year with the Browns. They also measured in at the same height down to the quarter inch.
I mean, Mingo got a bruised lung and nobody seems to know when it actually happened. That suggests that he should bulk up a bit. It should help him at the point of attack and contribute to his development as an every down player. I'm glad the new coaching staff sees it the same way.
He's just too wirey right now. I don't want a guy who makes a speed/impact play once a game and then disappears the other 50 snaps. I'm trying to think of the elite 3-4 OLBs in this league and can't think of any that are as lean and wirey as Mingo. He measured in at 6'4.25" at the combine and probably played under 240 during the season.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Kind of similar poses in each image:   Aldon has always had the thicker frame, I truthfully don't see the resemblance when comparing the two. They both have low body fat % in the pics and are both 6'4'', but Aldon has about 20lbs more than Mingo in their college days. Mingo: 241 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/barkevious-mingo?id=2540140Smith: 263 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/aldon-smith?id=2495487With that being said, Aldon has had more than enough frame and etc to add without effecting him. San Fran still has him listed around 260 range (265 to be exact): http://www.49ers.com/team/roster/Aldon-Smith/b64ae7f7-f592-4dc8-98a3-8179d83969d2I'd be beyond happy if Mingo could slap 20 lbs of raw beef onto his frame and still dance around like 1969 Camaro with a 383 stroker engine - but I don't see that as even being remotely possible or feasible. As many have stated, Mingo shouldn't exceed 10lbs. Go from there, see how he moves, see how he feels - then see if more could be added, or even honestly, if too much was added. I'm anxious to see after this offseason, what he is coming in as. I can already hear Mary Kay or Tony asking him what his weight is the moment he is released for public interviews and etc 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
Thanks Josh...yeah I was talking about the supplement not the natural intake of creatine. My point was to do with diet and not supplements. Obviously if you cannot eat certain foods and/or you have a deficiency its probably best you take some supplements. But especially if you are looking to gain weight and add muscle you should be able to get the correct nutrients in your system through Diet.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Sorry Toad, but I really have to disagree w/you about him not having the desire to mix it up. I can't see how you came to that conclusion at all.
I have seen flaws in his game, namely that he messes up certain assignments and I think he hit the rookie wall, but not willing to mix it up is not even close to the truth.
Btw----------someone mentioned Sheard earlier, but Sheard had many of the same mental gaffes as Mingo did and he was in his 3rd year. Wonder why people ignored those mistakes........................???????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Quote:
Kind of similar poses in each image:
....pics....
Aldon has always had the thicker frame, I truthfully don't see the resemblance when comparing the two. They both have low body fat % in the pics and are both 6'4'', but Aldon has about 20lbs more than Mingo in their college days.
Mingo: 241
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/barkevious-mingo?id=2540140
Smith: 263
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/aldon-smith?id=2495487
With that being said, Aldon has had more than enough frame and etc to add without effecting him. San Fran still has him listed around 260 range (265 to be exact):
http://www.49ers.com/team/roster/Aldon-Smith/b64ae7f7-f592-4dc8-98a3-8179d83969d2
I'd be beyond happy if Mingo could slap 20 lbs of raw beef onto his frame and still dance around like 1969 Camaro with a 383 stroker engine - but I don't see that as even being remotely possible or feasible.
As many have stated, Mingo shouldn't exceed 10lbs. Go from there, see how he moves, see how he feels - then see if more could be added, or even honestly, if too much was added. I'm anxious to see after this offseason, what he is coming in as. I can already hear Mary Kay or Tony asking him what his weight is the moment he is released for public interviews and etc
I think it depends on when the pics were taken... here is another one of Aldon Smith from his days at Mizzou:
Looks kinda life Mingo. Here's another one: http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/684831/aldonsmithfile_copy_t_w600_h1200.jpg
Ok he might be a little bigger, but that's the point. The old adage is that 20lb of bodyweight is good for about an inch on the upper arms. That's about what I'm seeing. (my rec was actually for Mingo to gain 10-20lb)
Frame size is a different beast. You can get a good estimate for it based on wrist and ankle measurements which we unfortunately don't have.
Whether or not Aldon Smith is actually 265 is debatable, my guess would be under. Listed height/weight is unreliable. At least the NFL is reasonably honest when it comes to height. NBA list heights are usually taken in shoes and then rounded up, then sometimes they add another inch on top of that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Quote:
Thanks Josh...yeah I was talking about the supplement not the natural intake of creatine. My point was to do with diet and not supplements. Obviously if you cannot eat certain foods and/or you have a deficiency its probably best you take some supplements. But especially if you are looking to gain weight and add muscle you should be able to get the correct nutrients in your system through Diet.
What is wrong with creatine? Almost all NFL players should take creatine. There are hundreds of studies affirming its safety and effectiveness. It is one of the very few worthwhile supplements, it's dirt cheap, legal, and readily available.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481 |
i think the problem with the aldon smith/mingo argument isn't size, imo.
is that Aldon smith, at least from what i watched, has more than one move to get to the QB. Mingo has only speed, which to me, means less of mingo's ability and more of the LT he goes against. but even the worst LT won't give up more than a sack against a guy with only one move.
thats not to say Mingo can't learn any more techniques. Smith does have 2-3 years on mingo. i think strength and conditioning coaches will get mingo to an "ideal" size, but he needs to focus on teachable things, which is all technique.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Point made, that pic Aldon definitively looks leaner and smaller. Clear as day.
In any case, let's see what our boy can do. With no lung issues or set backs, hopefully Jim O'niel and company push Mingo to his limits.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Sorry Toad, but I really have to disagree w/you about him not having the desire to mix it up. I can't see how you came to that conclusion at all.
Well, you don't really have to disagree
We see the guy in a different light. No harm there, happens all the time. It's so hard to evaluate players by the pros when they see them for days on end in person, let alone fans through a TV, and even then the hit-rate in the 1st round can't be that good by the guys making a living at this.
At LSU I saw a skinny guy who could use his speed to get around inferior talent. In the NFL he's facing guys who are so skilled that pure quickness isn't good enough. He didn't have to be physical in college, just fast. Now he has to be physical and it's a huge adjustment for him.
This is just my opinion. All the games I watched showed me a guy who didn't really stick his head in there and go for it. Even on a "big hit" early in the season where he leveled a receiver who'd just caught the ball, he didn't actually lower his pad level and drive through the hit. All he did was bring his arms in and lower his shoulder. It was a classic case of a guy who doesn't want to hit.
He should make some strides this off-season but he's got a long way to go. I'm less concerned about his weight and more concerned about his desire. His weight was just another reason why I didn't want him in the first place. Hope I'm wrong.
He can't be a 6 or 7 sack guy for us. He can't even be a Kam Wimbley. He has to be something better.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447 |
While he may never lay the wood in his career or bull rush a RT to the ground I question your use of the word desire. I don't think you meant it how I interpret it.
I haven't seen a passrusher come out with more relentlessness in years. Granted that he is definitely finesse. Just saying his biggest weakness coming out was despite him ferocious hands they were undisciplined at best. With his length especially in his arms he won't ever need to seal the way you see a 34 DE seal. If his hands improve along with his repertoire of moves I really don't see the issue.
With his size I don't want to see him get his head into the OT. He would be so easy to gobble up or hold it isn't funny. With developed hands and his quickness he should be able to take an inside route on most runs and still not surrender an outside lane.
Last edited by predator16; 02/11/14 05:08 PM.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum M.I.N.G.O.
|
|
