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The only possible thing I can invision is making being gay illegal? Not sure how that will work.
It's easy, you just follow other examples that have worked so well.. like Iran.
yebat' Putin
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I think most people don't just want to be "tolerated". People want to be accepted, it's just human nature.
I know.. I just think people started using the word tolerance 20-30 years ago when that's what they wanted and they still use it when they really mean acceptance... "tolerance" is begrudgingly letting a black guy eat in your diner because the law makes you do it... "acceptance" is shaking his hand and being glad he's there. Not many people want to eat or stay or work in a place where they aren't welcome, even if they are allowed to be there.
My thoughts on this are pretty simple, this is the first case, the test case, the trial balloon.. with each time this happens it will be less and less of a big deal. I'm not gay so I guess I have the luxury of patience while I'm sure others wish it would go faster...... To prove my point, was anybody even aware that the super bowl this year was won by the SECOND black QB to ever win the super bowl? 
yebat' Putin
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Eat it Phil...
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Back to the kid this thread was originally about, even his father has problems trying to accept that his son is gay. It seems to be tearing their family apart. That part truly breaks my heart ..... however, if the father truly believes that the son's behavior is wrong, then why should he have to accept it as proper.
Because if he wants to have a relationship with his son, he has to accept it. He may not have to endorse it, but he'd better accept it and deal with it. The kid didn't "choose" this.
I was him - the dad. My views on homosexuality have, I guess, changed some. Changed in the sense that I don't believe people "choose" it. I still don't "endorse" it - if that makes any sense.
I had a choice with my son: Accept it (not tolerate - accept), or basically lose my son. I still struggle with the religious aspect of it. I (me, wife daughter) attend a church that several years ago decided to forgo any affiliation with the United Church of Christ due to the UCC "accepting" homosexuality. Oddly enough, our church still has 3 gay people that attend regularly. (get this - one was my teacher in middle school - the other was my phys ed prof in college - at a Mennonite College I might add, and the third person is her partner)
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Back to the comparison of a child born out of wedlock ..... I know families who have struggled with this, loving and accepting the child, while not accepting that the behavior that led to the child's creation was proper. It's definitely a fine line to walk.
I was that person, also. I grew up Mennonite. (some people call it Amish Lite). I did not have a kid out of wedlock - but I certainly fathered that kid out of wedlock.
I'm glad my parents didn't toss me to the curb. They're glad too.
My feelings are this: It's not up to me to judge - thank God for that.
If Sam can play, more power to him and it shouldn't be a media story, although it will be. If he can't cut it, no harm no foul because there are a lot of players that just can't cut it in the nfl. But it shouldn't be a media story either.
Sadly, either way, it will be a media story.
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J/C
My take on this. Look at any of the Civil rights movements in the past century. At first it was a good thing, the right thing. Then gradually once most of what they set out to accomplish had been accomplished, people saw a way to get paid or bring attention to themselves or somehow improve their own situation via the "movement" by taking it to ridiculous heights.
I work for a fashion corporate retailer. It is without question FAR better to be a gay man than it is straight. HR is scared of you, your straight boss is scared, everyone running scared because they wouldn't want to think the gay employee thought they were a bigot. You have to hire them because "fashion" is synonymous with gay.
I completely understand wanting to be accepted but it's never going to be 100%, ever. I know this from my dealings with gay friends, not everyone is going to like you. In fact I've had people flat out not like me because I refuse to cater to them for being gay. Don't like me treating you like everyone else? That's fine, don't ask for it.
The only thing that irks me is preferential treatment. I realize I live in an extremely liberal city, but when you live here, if you even have questions you're a bigot.
Example:
I had two gay friends, they lived next door, my ex and I hung out with them regularly. We went out to gay bars, we had dinner together, we did a lot of "double dates". We shared a backyard so we had a party together, to which a guy came, he talked like a woman in a very high pitched, very "gay" feminine voice.
A few weeks later when discussion the party I asked the question about this very nice yet flamboyant fellow, "At what point is speaking like that a choice? I mean, I can make myself sound gay and you (my two gay guy friends) don't sound anything like that. At what point is it a choice?" I even added that I agreed that some (few) could just be born like that, but mostly we mimic our parents speech until we learn from somewhere else. While I fully believe people are in fact born gay, my point was speech doesn't derive from sexual orientation.
Well the backlash from asking that question in the midst of two feminist lesbians made it so I am no longer friends with any of those people just for asking the question. It's a complex issue with no solution in sight, but in my eyes. If you want to be treated like everyone else, stop making a spectacle of it every chance you get.
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I agree with your last sentence 100%
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If you want to be treated like everyone else, stop making a spectacle of it every chance you get.
There are extremists in every "group". Most of us just try to live our lives, no? There are things men, women, straight, gay, religious, not so religious, football fans, egomaniacs (and on an on and on) do that I will probably NEVER comprehend. But, that's okay. I don't need to agree with everyone…where's the fun in that? 
And, BpG, bummer you lost friends over asking a question. Guess they weren't really friends to begin with. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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It was a "Him or us" situation. It was one of the most childish, silly things I have come across when dealing with adults. Which is saying something.
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I suppose, and maybe this is your point, if you hang around a group of people you'll pick up on their speech paterns, word usage, slang, clothing style, interests, etc. It's a conscious/unconscious choice to mimic the group to either fit in or just because you like the way they are. Good or bad, it's the way group dynamics tend to work. As for your quote: Quote:
If you want to be treated like everyone else, stop making a spectacle of it every chance you get.
I agree. Like I said above or in another thread, it seems like when an actor comes out, it's not during a press conference, it just happens and nobody really cares. It's page 10 news at best. Probably because he/she is number 1,345 to come out of the closet in the past few decades. It's a "meh" moment.
Unfortunately, we're not at that point in pro sports yet. We'll get there and I hope it's soon.
But, you can agree that coming out was very important for the gay rights movement when it started. It was the only way to force the issue of proving that the neighbor, bus driver or family member you thought was cool is gay and they aren't the evil demons that rumors say they are. But in 2014, it's no longer necessary to "come out" to the world, except pro sports.
I'll be so glad when Sam plays well and people stop caring what he does off the field. And that will drive others to stop making annoucements about their lifestyle. We'll find out through normal means and just let it roll off our back, like hearing Player X likes to hunt wild boars with his bare hands .
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Just curious….do people that have children out of wedlock get beaten or killed for their choice?
Depending on where in the country or world they are, and what religion they belong to, unfortunately, it could indeed prove fatal. In some areas/religions, she might be killed. In others, such a woman would be shunned and cast out. In others, she would "just" be looked down upon. In still others, it's perfectly normal.
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And, THIS is one reason why religious zealots feel they are being shunned…because they sound like giant hypocrites. They have rewritten PLENTY in the Bible. But this ONE thing seems to be the stickler for them. Reminds me of three year olds throwing themselves on the floor and throwing a kicking and screaming fit.
I disagree. The Bible considers the homosexual act a sin. You don't have to like that, but it is what the Bible says. To pretend otherwise means that you might as well change anything else that doesn't suit the times as well. I would love to sleep with all kinds of women out of wedlock. Maybe we can write that into the next version of the Bible too?
The Bible doesn't let us pick and choose. Either we believe it, or we don't. I happen to believe that it should not be rewritten to fit popular culture and current secular opinions. I can separate the secular side, and protect the rights of someone I disagree with on religious terms, so that a homosexual person and/or couple should have no worry of being beaten or killed (as in your original example) for being who they are ....... but that is not offering my approval for such a lifestyle, especially on religious terms, when one of the major instruments of my Faith, the Bible, tells me that it is not pleasing or acceptable unto God. It is not my place to sit in judgement, but pointing out the law is not judging, any more than pointing out a 35 MPH speed limit sign to a person doing 50 is judging them.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Sam is not asking to be celebrated, he knew there would be a media frenzy when he did this, but he did it to have a peace of mind..
I don't think he came out for piece of mind. He came out because the story was about to break and he wanted to head it off at the pass so it would not hurt his draft status.
Smart move that I agree with, but again, stop w/the hero nonsense.
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Quote:
Quote:
Sam is not asking to be celebrated, he knew there would be a media frenzy when he did this, but he did it to have a peace of mind..
I don't think he came out for piece of mind. He came out because the story was about to break and he wanted to head it off at the pass so it would not hurt his draft status.
Smart move that I agree with, but again, stop w/the hero nonsense.
I literally just said he didn't do it to be a hero.
His teammates have been quoted as saying keeping it a secrect really messed with him.
I agree that it was a smart move as it relates to his draft status.
How about you stop with this hero stuff.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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It amazes me how sensitive most of you are. Sheesh.
I stated my opinion. I was NOT attacking you.
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The kid didn't "choose" this.
I still struggle with this notion... Now I know that when you say it's a choice, those who disagree mock you and assume you mean that the person starts with no urges in either direction and sit down and make a spreadsheet of pros and cons and decide that being gay is the better way to go... that's pretty stupid. Pretty much everything about us, whether we do drugs, or drink, or become a doctor, or work out and stay in shape, or become a vegetarian, or whether we are attracted to tall people or girls with big boobs, or whether we decide to play the piano or play golf is all considered a choice largely based on our upbringing.. but this thing, it's heresy to say that there is any amount of choice in it at all...... we are all a function of 3 things, genetics, our nurturing and environment, and ultimately the choices we make based on the other two.. I just find it very hard to believe that this one thing is the one thing that is 100% genetic.
yebat' Putin
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At no point in my life did I "choose" to like women. I just did.
I've known many gay people of both sexes that BECAUSE of their upbringing tried it the oldfashioned way but knew it felt "wrong" for them .
There are countless studies that show the certain parts of the brain that relate to sexual orientation of a man is different in size for a straight versus gay male. We were just discussing it the other day in Intro to Psych.
But I mean. Its just science right.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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There are countless studies that show the certain parts of the brain that relate to sexual orientation of a man is different in size for a straight versus gay male.
By countless, do you mean one?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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The Bible doesn't let us pick and choose. Either we believe it, or we don't. I happen to believe that it should not be rewritten to fit popular culture and current secular opinions.
The ones that pick and choose are the followers of the Bible. If you really think they don't, I guess we'll just let this one go.
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It is not my place to sit in judgement, but pointing out the law is not judging, any more than pointing out a 35 MPH speed limit sign to a person doing 50 is judging them.
The law? Whose law is that? Yours? And, I have read more judgmental things on this forum than I can count. Are you saying that you have never said anything judgmental about gay people? What exactly is the difference between judging and "pointing out the law"?
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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The Bible? Man I just cannot buy in to a book on religion written in a time where the church ran the world. Where you could purchase your way into heaven. Soul for coin.
I was raised Catholic, went to a private Catholic high school. The older I get, the more I see, the uneducated and "Rural" populations are the only ones holding the bible to the exact word.
We change laws when they become outdated or not relevant but the most forgiving man to have ever lived on the planet (Jesus) won't let us change up or least give some slack on commandments. Religion is so hypocritical. We'll forgive you for anything, unless we don't want to, then FIRE AND BRIMSTONE!
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sorry to others for hijacking this thread, but I thought BpG deserved a proper response for this post. here are my thoughts. Quote:
The Bible? Man I just cannot buy in to a book on religion written in a time where the church ran the world. Where you could purchase your way into heaven. Soul for coin.
yes, those were dark times for the Church. please note that the books themselves were written in a time when the Church did not rule the world though. The Hebrews did not rule the world when the Old Testament was written, and the New Testament was written before the Church took political control. Translations have been done since then, yes.
and, for full disclosure: I also was raised Catholic (and Greek Orthodox). I also had a falling out with "The Church" as the men who ran it were often hypocritical in how they were doing things as well as in history. It took me awhile to get back (and not as a Catholic, but as a non-demonational Christian), but I do firmly believe that the Bible puts forth the morals and ethics that can help one be a better person.
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I was raised Catholic, went to a private Catholic high school. The older I get, the more I see, the uneducated and "Rural" populations are the only ones holding the bible to the exact word.
yes, this is largely true if you are referring to the scientific aspects of timelines in Genesis, etc.
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We change laws when they become outdated or not relevant but the most forgiving man to have ever lived on the planet (Jesus) won't let us change up or least give some slack on commandments.
which of the 10 commandments do you think we need slack on? that is a strange request as they hit the basic principles that people still struggle with despite all of the time since it was written?
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Religion is so hypocritical. We'll forgive you for anything, unless we don't want to, then FIRE AND BRIMSTONE!
people are hypocritical, not the religion. people can also be biased, self-exalted, and hateful. but, those are people who are by default imperfect.
also, the Bible notes that you can be forgiven for anything, but you must truly be repentant for your sins.
#gmstrong
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At no point in my life did I "choose" to like women. I just did.
Not consciously, that was kind of my point.
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I've known many gay people of both sexes that BECAUSE of their upbringing tried it the oldfashioned way but knew it felt "wrong" for them .
So? I tried to be a stockbroker after college, I hated it.. so I became a construction manager and I really enjoy it.... Am I genetically wired to not be a stockbroker? Which part of my brain is the wrong size for me to be a stockbroker?
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There are countless studies that show the certain parts of the brain that relate to sexual orientation of a man is different in size for a straight versus gay male. We were just discussing it the other day in Intro to Psych.
So if you are straight it's a size 5 and if you are gay it's a size 10 right? I mean nobody is a size 7 or 8 where other factors might come into play. It's that simple right? And every size 10 is gay and every size 5 is straight I suppose too.. or if they aren't are they just lying to themselves?
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But I mean. Its just science right.
I apologize for admitting that I struggle with it, I apologize for laying out the reasons why I struggle with it, I apologize for trying to get it to make sense to me, I apologize for not being an expert because I didn't sit in on an Intro to Psych lecture the other day......
yebat' Putin
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I apologize for not being an expert because I didn't sit in on an Intro to Psych lecture the other day......
Oh my goodness.......you are on a roll today. 
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Ehh not really what I meant about the Commandments I guess. I was referencing more individual passages that staunch Christians bring up regarding homosexuality. Men lying with other men as they would lie with a woman. etc That's what I meant when I typed allowing slack...
Had to correct that, but other than that one correction (of myself) I agree with what you said.
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I struggle with trying to figure out how you equate finding a job you like to who you are sexually attracted to and want to spend your life with.
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I thought that was in jest 
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The Bible doesn't let us pick and choose. Either we believe it, or we don't. I happen to believe that it should not be rewritten to fit popular culture and current secular opinions.
There are a whole bunch of laws that I hope you are following then (that don't include trampling on the rights of others):
You only wear clothes with one kind of fabric right?
And you never cut your hair or shave?
Touch the flesh of pigs? (this message board is kind of built around that)
Wear gold?
I'm guessing for you, it's just easier to pick and choose.
~Lyuokdea
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When did you consciously decide you liked women? Apparently, you made a definite "choice", right?
Or, is that just how you are/were hardwired - to like women?
As a rule - I don't believe people "decide" to be gay. Just as I didn't "decide" to be hetero.
Some gays may hide it. Some gays DO live a hetero life style. (My wife has a friend that found out her dad was gay when he divorced her mom when she was 16 years old).
Anyway, there are exceptions to every rule (I have a h.s. classmate that is bi - a doctor, in Chicago - but he'll nail anything that walks basically. He has no scruples) - but DC, when did you make the choice to like women?
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Quote:
Quote:
The Bible doesn't let us pick and choose. Either we believe it, or we don't. I happen to believe that it should not be rewritten to fit popular culture and current secular opinions.
There are a whole bunch of laws that I hope you are following then (that don't include trampling on the rights of others):
You only wear clothes with one kind of fabric right?
And you never cut your hair or shave?
Touch the flesh of pigs? (this message board is kind of built around that)
Wear gold?
I'm guessing for you, it's just easier to pick and choose.
Old testament vs. New testament, isn't it?
I'm no Bible scholar - but this argument IS something I'd like to talk to my pastor about.
Any way........
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ah, misunderstood where you were coming from. thanks for the response. 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Bible doesn't let us pick and choose. Either we believe it, or we don't. I happen to believe that it should not be rewritten to fit popular culture and current secular opinions.
There are a whole bunch of laws that I hope you are following then (that don't include trampling on the rights of others):
You only wear clothes with one kind of fabric right?
And you never cut your hair or shave?
Touch the flesh of pigs? (this message board is kind of built around that)
Wear gold?
I'm guessing for you, it's just easier to pick and choose.
Old testament vs. New testament, isn't it?
I'm no Bible scholar - but this argument IS something I'd like to talk to my pastor about.
Any way........
Isn't this the whole Leviticus argument?
"A man shall not lie with man as with woman"
But Leviticus also goes on the write about not tearing your clothes, not drinking alcohol in holy places, not eating pig, not touching the carcass of a pig, not going to church 33 days after giving birth to a boy and 66 days after having a girl, not mixing fabrics, not planting seeds in the same field, not trimming your beard, not working on the Sabbath and not selling land.
All, none, or some? Which is it?
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Most people that are brought up a certain way, "struggle" with changing their attitude towards something. Because its how they were brought up..
But the earth used to be flat. Someone checked. And its not.
People thought that being gay was a choice. They've done research. And its not
But its cool. I guess for some its easier to believe that a guy can preform magic tricks and come back from the dead than it is to believe that some people like the same sex...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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DC was a bit sarcastic in his response, but he was merely asking about the gray area. Is everything black/white on that choice or if it is size of certain portions of your brain (I have also seen studies on different chemical levels - both likely related).
Anyway, wouldn't it stand to reason that some people are in the middle ground and that for some it is indeed a choice?
#gmstrong
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Isn't this the whole Leviticus argument?
Yes, you are correct, but then there is the whole New Covenant of the New Testament. Homosexuality is still called out as a sin in the New Testament, but the others you list are not (at least not that I know of. I have to admit that I do not have the New Testament memorized by any stretch).
A big piece missing here though is I often hear that Christians hate gays because of the Bible and such. What is lost is that while it is called out as a sin, there is no hate derived. In fact, there is not supposed to be any judgement from man derived either.
Is it a sin?
according to the Bible, yes.
How big?
not for me to decide. I have plenty of my own sins to deal with and figure out, I'm not to judge anyone for theirs (do not judge lest ye be judged and all).
Does that mean no Christian hates or judges based on a person's sexuality?
Of course not. We are all imperfect people and it is very easy to fall into the trap of thinking you are better than other people (and that is for all people). Hatred can spawn from such thoughts as well. Those are sins that they need to deal with themselves.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
What about bisexuals? Is that a choice, not a choice, or both, or even neither?
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601 |
Quote:
Quote:
The Bible doesn't let us pick and choose. Either we believe it, or we don't. I happen to believe that it should not be rewritten to fit popular culture and current secular opinions.
There are a whole bunch of laws that I hope you are following then (that don't include trampling on the rights of others):
You only wear clothes with one kind of fabric right
And you never cut your hair or shave?
Touch the flesh of pigs? (this message board is kind of built around that)
Wear gold?
I'm guessing for you, it's just easier to pick and choose.
Not sure what kind of religion Y-town is but sadly many people CHOOSE to believe bits and pieces of the Bible that are either convenient or easy for them to..
Christianity isn't governed by the statues/covenants of the Old Testament.. There are various passages pointing to why the "Old Covenant" between God and man was destroyed to include the short list of things you previously posted...
Ephesians 2:15 (New Testament) is one of many verses that state that the "laws" of the Old Covenant are removed through Jesus Christ..
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
What about bisexuals? Is that a choice, not a choice, or both, or even neither?
perhaps it's just greedy 
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601 |
Nailed it... Was typing it out and missed yours..
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
always good to have another voice confirm too
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601 |
Oh and after re-reading my post it may appear that I was calling out Y-town in which I wasn't.. Just wanted to clarify that I brought him up because the poster I did respond to was replying off of his... Confusing yet?? 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,409 Likes: 461
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,409 Likes: 461 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Bible doesn't let us pick and choose. Either we believe it, or we don't. I happen to believe that it should not be rewritten to fit popular culture and current secular opinions.
There are a whole bunch of laws that I hope you are following then (that don't include trampling on the rights of others):
You only wear clothes with one kind of fabric right
And you never cut your hair or shave?
Touch the flesh of pigs? (this message board is kind of built around that)
Wear gold?
I'm guessing for you, it's just easier to pick and choose.
Not sure what kind of religion Y-town is but sadly many people CHOOSE to believe bits and pieces of the Bible that are either convenient or easy for them to..
Christianity isn't governed by the statues/covenants of the Old Testament.. There are various passages pointing to why the "Old Covenant" between God and man was destroyed to include the short list of things you previously posted...
Ephesians 2:15 (New Testament) is one of many verses that state that the "laws" of the Old Covenant are removed through Jesus Christ..
That is correct. However, the New Testament re-verifies God's stance on sexual sins. (for all people, heterosexual and otherwise) The body of a Christian is supposed to be a temple for God .... and not casually given away. That is how I take its meaning.
This is an argument that is not going to be solved today. That much is sure. Some people believe that the New Testament, in particular, was mis-translated with regards to certain acts. I hope that, for the sake of those who commit those acts, that they are correct. I'll leave it at that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601 |
Quote:
That is correct. However, the New Testament re-verifies God's stance on sexual sins. (for all people, heterosexual and otherwise) The body of a Christian is supposed to be a temple for God .... and not casually given away. That is how I take its meaning.
Among MANY other things... I Corinthians chapter 6 starts with breaking down lawsuits then goes into sexual sins but also non-sexual sins.. Stealing, Drunkedness etc..
As for the New Testament and it's translation, I know my faith and Salvation and He that has given it freely through grace.. Having Him within truly does allow the rest to make sense..
Picking and choosing passages is both dangerous and treacherous (for those that do that)... Sadly it doesn't just hurt those that turn away from it but also those that cast judgement upon others.. I have definitely seen both sides which I am sure you have as well..
Definitely right that this is a topic that won't be solved today or any other day for that fact..
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