I can understand you probably dont know much about Jimmy Garappolo and that might not make you like where I wanted to take him. I hae watched a lot of footage on him though and I would take him over just about any QB in this draft exept maybe Bridgewater. I really like bridgewater. I do. I just worry he is not big boned enough to take the beating the NFC North dishes out to QB's. While Bortles has the size you like for the AFCN I don't think he is mentally sharp enough to be worthy a top 15 pick much less 4th overall. Jimmy is stoutly built and the mental part of his game is much better than most QB's I have seen in quite some time.
Unless Teddy falls to us by some miracle I think trading down to get more second round picks is the sure fire way to improve our franchise. With my draft we would gain an explosive offense with tons of firepower and an O-line that keeps our QB's healthy. With Hoyer or Jimmy G. getting rid of the ball so fast our new O-line will look elite all the way.
Trading down is by far the best thing we can do if we can't land Bridgewater.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
Quote: Outside of Teddy there is no QB in this draft worth trading up for and even then Teddy would seriously have to put on some muscle weight to survive in the AFC North.
To be honest, the more I think about it the more I really wish we could make some trade downs and pick up some second round picks. There is a fun draft simulator I tired out and come out with this draft:
i ilke that much better than the high QB draft. If we could get a draft like that, i would be happy.
Quote:
Not likely to happen but man our whole franchise would change over night in a draft like this. ANY QB would do well here then and I think that in the best way to build a team!
If you remove all of Johnny Football's scramble/running plays..
He still looks like a solid QB. My biggest concern along with a laundry list of terrible habits... he is raw and needs to be coached properly.
I will say... he does stay in the pocket for 4-5 seconds before he starts to move. That is really good and I wish more mobile QB's did that.
He reminds me a little of Farve with a weaker arm. he tends to float that ball on deeper routes.
He makes plays he shouldn't and he won't make those same plays in the NFL. All the times he was almost tackled in college... he will get destroyed in the NFL.
He needs to learn how to run with the football. the ball goes on the sideline. Why hasn't a coach addressed that?
He needs to learn not to throw across his body into double coverage. it doesn't work in the NFL.
He needs to be a team that will bench him for his first year and correct his habits and coach him up.
Mourgrym, thanks for Garapollo highlights. This kid has a great ball and touch. I have been curious; now I am impressed. The receivers didn't strike me as being all that, he just made highlight catches look easy. I may be a fan for this kid now. Hope he has a real good Combine. How highly have we placed this kid, or Farmer, or whomever?
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
I don't think I'd care if we took Jimmy G w/ our 2nd round pick where I see a few mocks having us take Weed...err Carr.
Also, I've read at least 3 "experts" say that w/ Bridgewater's frame, particularly his narrow hips, you are seeing what you will always get size-wise; That you will see him putting on NO extra bulk in his pro career. Anybody have anything to say about that? I don't know enough to really comment . . .
Bridgewater is the man. He possesses the smarts to succeed along with the skills. If they trade up for him I will be smiling. But after him, like Manzeil, but I'm up in the air on him. Bortles I'm liking more and more. He's big and light on his feet. I can't help but to see a young Roethlisberger when I watch him.
IMO. you do what you can to get Teddy, and if you can't, you take one of the others at four, no trade ups. If they do go second round for a QB, which I think is crazy unlees they are all gone, I go Garapopollo {spelling}
Quote: Bridgewater is the man. He possesses the smarts to succeed along with the skills. If they trade up for him I will be smiling. But after him, like Manzeil, but I'm up in the air on him. Bortles I'm liking more and more. He's big and light on his feet. I can't help but to see a young Roethlisberger when I watch him.
IMO. you do what you can to get Teddy, and if you can't, you take one of the others at four, no trade ups. If they do go second round for a QB, which I think is crazy unlees they are all gone, I go Garapopollo {spelling}
^ I think I agree with most of this. Teddy is the only one I trade up for. I take Bortles at four with no looking back. I might even trade down a couple spots if possible to take a chance on getting Manziel (or not). Then I like Garoppolo in the third or later, with maybe Tahj Boyd in there somewhere as a possible candidate.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
Quote: Bridgewater is the man. He possesses the smarts to succeed along with the skills. If they trade up for him I will be smiling. But after him, like Manzeil, but I'm up in the air on him. Bortles I'm liking more and more. He's big and light on his feet. I can't help but to see a young Roethlisberger when I watch him.
IMO. you do what you can to get Teddy, and if you can't, you take one of the others at four, no trade ups. If they do go second round for a QB, which I think is crazy unlees they are all gone, I go Garapopollo {spelling}
^ I think I agree with most of this. Teddy is the only one I trade up for. I take Bortles at four with no looking back. I might even trade down a couple spots if possible to take a chance on getting Manziel (or not). Then I like Garoppolo in the third or later, with maybe Tahj Boyd in there somewhere as a possible candidate.
If Teddy is the only one you move up to get (and I agree that he'd be the one if any), you'd have to get to the 1st pick I think and for the sake of argument, let's assume thats true)
What do you think you'd have to give up to get that first pick..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Casserly: Film review shows big flaw in Johnny Manziel's game
That Johnny Manziel might run too much for his own good in the NFL is the longest-standing red flag, along with his size, about the former Heisman Trophy winner's pro potential as a quarterback. That Manziel tucked and ran despite having open receivers at Texas A&M, however, raises that flag a bit higher.
But that's what NFL Media analyst and former Texans and Redskins personnel executive Charley Casserly told NFL AM he sees in watching film of the former Aggies star who could be the No. 1 overall pick to the quarterback-needy Houston Texans.
"Pocket discipline. When you watch tape on this guy, there are times I'm not sure what this guy sees. You've got guys wide open and, boom, he takes off and runs," Casserly said. "He may be a victim of his (own) ability to make plays running the football, so he doesn't stay in the pocket. I'd want to watch tape with him, what are you seeing, why are you running when you don't have to run?"
Manziel did a better job of staying in the pocket as a sophomore in 2013 than he did in his Heisman Trophy season of 2012, rushing for roughly half the yardage in his second year as a college starter while showing more pocket patience. Casserly, however, wants to see more.
"Clearly the other thing, you've got to get a handle on this guy's maturity. When he goes to the big city, it's not going to be College Station any more," Casserly said.
In a candid look at the draft's other quarterback prospects, Casserly had the following thoughts about Central Florida's Blake Bortles, Louisville's Teddy Bridgewater, and Alabama's AJ McCarron:
On Bortles: "This guy might be No. 1 when it is all said and done because he's a big strong-armed guy. When you watch the tape, in every single game I watched, he'll make some throws you can't explain, as far as making bad decisions. ... (Also) you'd like him to be a little more consistent on the accuracy to be the top pick."
On Bridgewater: "Everybody talks about (Bridgewater's) body build, being a lean guy, they worry about his durability. What is his strength and size potential? (That's) something we want to look at. The other thing is vocal leadership. You want to get a good handle on that at the combine and in the spring."
On McCarron: "Very productive quarterback, smart guy, but what I want to see (is) arm strength. I want to see this arm live. I just want to see at what level it's not strong. ... Is this guy Andy Dalton? I'm trying to make a positive out of that, but Dalton has his deficiencies, and one of them is accuracy, deep especially. Is he Andy Dalton, or is he a lesser Andy Dalton? That's my question on him."
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: So you'd basically give up TR, and a 2nd, 3rd & 4th.
We still have Richardson? I thought we got the 26th pick for him?
It is easy to talk yourself into things when you use bad logic.
26th pick > Trent Richardson
literal much? No matter what "value" you assign to the 26th pick, that pick would likely need to be included in the trade, though all it cost us to get that pick is a failed RB. So in fact, because of the trade, TR = 26th pick.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
Quote: #4, #26, 2nd rd pick, our top 3rd and possibly a 4th. So you'd basically give up TR, and a 2nd, 3rd & 4th.
Do you think that he's worth that?
First, let me qualify the above by saying I personally think it will take at least that to move into the first spot. It could cost both our thirds or all the above plus a 5th, maybe our number 4 and next years 1st instead of the #26. You get the idea.
The above is what I would consider fair and reasonable, and yes, I would make that trade. I would not give up say, three 1st Rd picks, or give away my entire draft, but I would work hard to make it happen if I thought they were seriously considering offers. I think Teddy has all the tools and is most ready to walk on the field and start winning out of all of them. JMHO
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
Quote: #4, #26, 2nd rd pick, our top 3rd and possibly a 4th. So you'd basically give up TR, and a 2nd, 3rd & 4th.
Do you think that he's worth that?
First, let me qualify the above by saying I personally think it will take at least that to move into the first spot. It could cost both our thirds or all the above plus a 5th, maybe our number 4 and next years 1st instead of the #26. You get the idea.
The above is what I would consider fair and reasonable, and yes, I would make that trade. I would not give up say, three 1st Rd picks, or give away my entire draft, but I would work hard to make it happen if I thought they were seriously considering offers. I think Teddy has all the tools and is most ready to walk on the field and start winning out of all of them. JMHO
Houston owns that pick. If you were Houston and you had Schaub, would you even consider trading out of the 1st pick where (if your eval of Teddy is on target) you could get your Franchise QB for the next 10+ years?
The answer if I'm Houston is HELL NO....LOL
So I really don't see that happening. That's if GM's around the league feel Teddy is really as good as you do.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: So I really don't see that happening. That's if GM's around the league feel Teddy is really as good as you do.
Maybe not, and I'm not saying it will happen. We'll just have to wait and see, but they may also like Bortles and/or Manziel better so anything is possible at this point.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
Quote: though all it cost us to get that pick is a failed RB. So in fact, because of the trade, TR = 26th pick.
The cost of the pick has nothing to do with the fact that we now have the pick. When evaluating whether or not the pick should be traded it should not be factored in that the pick used to be Trent Richardson.
For the record, I agree with you in saying that we will likely (and should) give up the pick in order to get a QB.
Quote: When evaluating whether or not the pick should be traded it should not be factored in that the pick used to be Trent Richardson.
It's not, but in factoring in the cost for that pick, which is what I was doing, you do indeed have to factor that in because that, in fact, is what it cost us.
Quote: For the record, I agree with you in saying that we will likely (and should) give up the pick in order to get a QB.
I didn't say that, I said I would give up that pick to get a particular QB, Bridgewater. I wouldn't give up squat to get Bortles. And I would seriously consider trading down a spot or 5 before I took Manziel.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
Quote: It's not, but in factoring in the cost for that pick, which is what I was doing, you do indeed have to factor that in because that, in fact, is what it cost us.
Do you think Richardson's name has come up at all when our front office is discussing the 26th pick? (Other than to talk about how lucky they are to actually have the pick). "We have the 26th pick, but Richardson's stinks anyway, so it has a different value. . ."
Quote: I didn't say that, I said I would give up that pick to get a particular QB, Bridgewater.
Yes. I just meant if a QB is good enough to have to trade up and get you should trade the picks. Your preference is Bridgewater.
I do find the notion of this theory that you take "any of the top 3 rated QB's at #4".
I've never heard of such a thing. You evaluate each player individually. I'd be willing to bet that NO NFL FO has all three of these QB's rated as worthy of the #4 overall pick.
We certainly do need a QB. But to suggest you just "inert name here" as some kind of answer to the QB need to me is so far off the mark it isn't worthy of discussion.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: Do you think Richardson's name has come up at all when our front office is discussing the 26th pick? (Other than to talk about how lucky they are to actually have the pick). "We have the 26th pick, but Richardson's stinks anyway, so it has a different value. . ."
I'm going to believe that you're not seriously asking if I think that.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
I do find the notion of this theory that you take "any of the top 3 rated QB's at #4".
I've never heard of such a thing. You evaluate each player individually. I'd be willing to bet that NO NFL FO has all three of these QB's rated as worthy of the #4 overall pick.
We certainly do need a QB. But to suggest you just "inert name here" as some kind of answer to the QB need to me is so far off the mark it isn't worthy of discussion.
Agreed. Personally, and this is JMHO, I have Teddy at #1, Bortles at #4 and Manziel at #7-9. I don't look again for a QB until the 3rd & 4th rounds where I start looking at Garoppolo & Boyd.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
I do find the notion of this theory that you take "any of the top 3 rated QB's at #4".
I've never heard of such a thing. You evaluate each player individually. I'd be willing to bet that NO NFL FO has all three of these QB's rated as worthy of the #4 overall pick.
We certainly do need a QB. But to suggest you just "inert name here" as some kind of answer to the QB need to me is so far off the mark it isn't worthy of discussion.
I get what you're saying but I don't agree. It's roulette and you can't NOT play if you're the Browns. Even if you lose, at least you tried. Not trying is not an option anymore.
Last year was different, there wasn't a QB worth a 1st round pick, much less 3 potential top 5's.
So you believe the evaluations of these QB's mean nothing?
Let's say Manziel and Bridgewater are gone and our draft board has us taking Bortles no earlier than #26, you simply take him anyway just because he's a QB?
I'm just not following that line of thinking. I'm not saying we shouldn't draft a QB. And I do know that you will usually overdraft a QB because of the position. But I also believe you have to draw a line somewhere on what that cost is depending on the QB that falls.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I don't think that is what he is saying, but I also get what you are saying. LOL
Pit, it comes down to this for me.
--There are three qbs w/top of the draft grades. Bortles is a little bit iffy, but some have him going first overall.
--We have the 4th overall pick.
--We have the ammunition to trade up if we want to.
--We do not have a QB who has proven to be a franchise guy.
--It is said that getting a franchise QB is the most important part of the football team, and I am including the coaching staff and FO.
--We might not be in this position again.
Man, I think we should do whatever we have to do in order to draft Teddy or Manziel. I prefer Teddy, but Houston might not budge. I think it would be a big mistake to allow a team like Jacksonville, Minni, etc to jump us and draft one of those guys leaving us holding our junk.
Pit, let me ask you this..............do you think we would be in this position today if we would have drafted Ben over K2? Would we have been in this position if we drafted Rodgers instead of Leon?
I don't. It's time to buck up and grab a daggone franchise qb.
Quote: Pit, let me ask you this..............do you think we would be in this position today if we would have drafted Ben over K2? Would we have been in this position if we drafted Rodgers instead of Leon?
No, on this point I believe you are right. We certainly wouldn't be in this position. I also believe you could make a huge list of QB's we could have drafted in place of those names that we would be exactly in this same position.
I guess that's really the only disagreement in this entire debate as of now. I'm just not sold on any of these QB's being "the answer" other than Bridgewater. My record on QB's isn't especially good though.
If this FO feels that any of these QB's are deserving of our #4 pick, or moving up for, for that matter, I will be a huge supporter of the move. I just won't be terribly surprised or disappointed if they don't see the value or a solution at the QB position being available there.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
One thing that I find comical about the knock on Bridgewater: "his slight build".
Like Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Johnny Manziel might be mistaken for Hulk Hogan.
Please talk about grasping for straws.
Just a suggestion watch all the games Bridgewater has played and tell me what impact his slight frame has had.
If Bridgewater was 215 pounds, no one would be questioning his thin frame but when you have someone that probably played last year at or near 190 pounds and he has narrow hips people are gonna question. He is the best pure passer in this draft but He will have to increase his size to go top 10. Its that simple. BTW rodgers fell to what 26, Brees was a 2nd rounder and Brady went in the 6th.
If people thought bridgewater weighed 215-225, No one would be questioning him and there is no way he would get out of the top 5. Rogers fell a lot due to size, Brees was more about height. I have listened to guys evaluate these kids and small hips are a big negative to anyone they would like to see add bulk.
I can tell you right now, general managers are hearing from some of these scouts that are saying, he doesnt have the frame to absorb the impact. Now the general managers are talking to the trainers on can we get this guy to where he can physically absorb the punishment and keep on trucking.
I know a lot want to compare the listed weight for Manziel and Bridgewater but Manziel looks thick and that counts for a lot. I have said all year, Love bridgewater the passer but the frame has him out of the top 10 for me and that is gonna be the case for a lot of teams.
Quote: Alright...........let's say that Teddy, Manziel, and Bortles are all available when we pick.
What would Pit do if he was running the draft? Would you pass on all three? If not, which one would you take?
I would take Bridgewater.
I'm not really saying I wouldn't take one of the others. I'm not enough of an expert to say. From everything I know of the three, I believe Bridgewater is the most complete QB to make a solid transition to the pros.
Where I do believe the waters get far more muddy, is the trading up scenario. After Bridgewater, I don't believe I would make a trade up. I'm just not sold on the fact the other two don't bring as many questions to the table than they bring answers.
But really, as I said before, my record on QB's isn't the greatest. I don't profess it to be. I simply know that different players with different skills grade out differently and I highly doubt all three of those QB's hold the same value.
As I said, if this FO doesn't see a worthwhile trade up or the value left at #4 with the remaining QB's when we pick, I won't be too disappointed. But yes, I really do like Bridgewater.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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literal much? No matter what "value" you assign to the 26th pick, that pick would likely need to be included in the trade, though all it cost us to get that pick is a failed RB. So in fact, because of the trade, TR = 26th pick. 
