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Ian Rapoport has sent out a series of Tweets with new information on the Alex Mack front: Quote:
Positive for Browns: Much better chance of retaining star C Alex Mack. He’ll still test FA. With old regime, he was gone. Could be back now
Link
He then answered a few questions regarding the situation:
Quote:
Offered during the season. Wasn’t deemed reasonable. RT @NFL_ATL: @RapSheet They weren't going to pay him enough under old regime?
Link
Quote:
Bad feelings built up over uncertainty, lack of contract progress RT @CBrink95: @RapSheet why was Mack gone with old regime?
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This don't make sense. Alex stated he didn't want to talk contract until after teh season was over, so how could bad feelings be built up?
Also, so I am understanding this correctly. No chance with old regime, but chance with new regime? Does this translate into "willing to stay now b/c new regime will grossly overpay to keep me?"
I like Alex, want him here, but math isn't adding up. Then again, nothing been adding up in terms of Cleveland heh...
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Also, so I am understanding this correctly. No chance with old regime, but chance with new regime? Does this translate into "willing to stay now b/c new regime will grossly overpay to keep me?"
Maybe he thought Banner was low-balling him and now he will get fair market value?
Quote:
Alex stated he didn't want to talk contract until after teh season was over, so how could bad feelings be built up?
Players (and coaches and GMs and owners) lie all the time so they won't have to answer questions about stuff.
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This don't make sense. Alex stated he didn't want to talk contract until after teh season was over, so how could bad feelings be built up?
Could be that they made him an offer that was so low that he said he wasn't going to talk contract or get into a negotiation during the season... Had they made him what he thought was a reasonable offer, he might have negotiated and even signed it... just speculating.
yebat' Putin
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Banner is famous for low balling.
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I think there is a lot of fictional speculation on this situation and pretty soon some of these wild speculations will be perceived as the truth.
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Why is TJ Ward in your title?
And why couldn't this new load of nonsense be discussed in the thread currently discussing the old load of nonsense?
I've never started one,so I don't know,but does starting a new thread have the same effect on a man as a double shot of Viagra does?
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Quote:
Why is TJ Ward in your title?
And why couldn't this new load of nonsense be discussed in the thread currently discussing the old load of nonsense?
There was an old thread discussing our pending free agents that got locked. That thread turned into a Alex Mack and T.J. Ward thread, so I created a new thread as there is new information about Mack.
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I'm just a dumb hillbilly,I have a difficult time following the bouncing ball,so maybe next time,for my sake,you could possibly add a Part.2 or a Continued to the title to alert me to what's going on.
And furthermore,I'd hardly call some rumors and speculation on twitter,news.
Just ask Damanshot.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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This don't make sense. Alex stated he didn't want to talk contract until after teh season was over, so how could bad feelings be built up?.
So, you really believe that what is said in public is what is meant behind closed doors?
Also, the players don't negotiate... they sign off on things. The agent's do the talking and know the value of their clients. They also know that Mack's value went up a ton with his Pro Bowl appearance and All Pro nominations. We'll have to pay, but it'll be fair market value. Unless the feel and environment in Berea has changed a TON, there isn't going to be any discounts for us just because we drafted him.
This is his first shot at a real contract... he's going to take advantage of it.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Ian Rapoport has sent out a series of Tweets with new information on the Alex Mack front:
Quote:
Positive for Browns: Much better chance of retaining star C Alex Mack. He’ll still test FA. With old regime, he was gone. Could be back now
Link
He then answered a few questions regarding the situation:
Quote:
Offered during the season. Wasn’t deemed reasonable. RT @NFL_ATL: @RapSheet They weren't going to pay him enough under old regime?
Link
Quote:
Bad feelings built up over uncertainty, lack of contract progress RT @CBrink95: @RapSheet why was Mack gone with old regime?
Link
Wasn't that Banners MO in Philly. Dump the high priced FAs?
Doubt seriously Mack or even Ward were coming back. The two Gurus and all their vast knowledge could have easily filled those spots... 
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Yeah, after the second comment by crfs15, I did kind of want to stick my foot in my mouth ha ha ha... as I am usually preaching how false and bs media people are, equally so can be/are the players.
...
In response to the low ball offer by Banner/Lombardi in terms of Mack comment - I could see this too. Who knows. I like Mack, but we've already got a few grossly overpaid players. If Mack truly wants to be here and accepts a fair-market, to maybe slight above fair market value contract - then I will be shocked.
Having a peak at the top five, highest paid centers (in terms of guaranteed money):
1 - Ryan Kalil at Center $19,000,000
2 - Nick Mangold at Center $16,097,600
3 - Eric Wood at Center $14,550,000
4 - Chris Myers at Center $14,000,000
5 - Scott Wells at Center $13,000,000
Not saying Alex is top five talent, or not that I am saying he isn't - but outta curiosity... if you were Farmer, what type of contract (length/guaranteed money) would you give him?
Last edited by Dawg_LB; 02/11/14 08:31 PM.
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Quote:
Yeah, after the second comment by crfs15, I did kind of want to stick my foot in my mouth ha ha ha... as I am usually preaching how false and bs media people are, equally so can be/are the players.
...
In response to the low ball offer by Banner/Lombardi in terms of Mack comment - I could see this too. Who knows. I like Mack, but we've already got a few grossly overpaid players. If Mack truly wants to be here and accepts a fair-market, to maybe slight above fair market value contract - then I will be shocked.
Having a peak at the top five, highest paid centers (in terms of guaranteed money) for 2014:
1 - Ryan Kalil at Center $19,000,000
2 - Nick Mangold at Center $16,097,600
3 - Eric Wood at Center $14,550,000
4 - Chris Myers at Center $14,000,000
5 - Scott Wells at Center $13,000,000
Not saying Alex is top five talent, or not that I am say he isn't - but outta curiosity... if you were Farmer, what type of contract (length/guaranteed money) would you give him?
That's their guarantee total on the contract. You have to hit the salary cap hits tab unless that's what you wanted. This is the cap hit for 2014 and next to it the average per year.
Nick Mangold Jets $9,117,100 $8,186,000
Scott Wells Rams $6,500,000 $7,725,000
Ryan Kalil Panthers $6,400,000 6,458,750
Max Unger Seahawks $6,000,000 $6,350,000
Chris Myers Texans $5,500,000 $6,250,000
I would be ok with a 5 year average of 7.
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Doubt seriously Mack or even Ward were coming back
I think one of them was going to be franchised all along.
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It's gonna take 5years and 35-40mil with 13-18 of that guaranteed imho. 7-8mil/year AVG
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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they need to get a deal for both of them.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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That's their guarantee total on the contract. You have to hit the salary cap hits tab unless that's what you wanted. This is the cap hit for 2014 and next to it the average per year.
Yeah the total on their contract as a whole was what I wanted but the "for 2014" made it confusing. I edited my post.
That cool you know the site i went to, I like it! http://www.spotrac.com/ if anyone else wants to have a peak... 
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Yeah that and rotoworld I believe are the best two.
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, after the second comment by crfs15, I did kind of want to stick my foot in my mouth ha ha ha... as I am usually preaching how false and bs media people are, equally so can be/are the players.
...
In response to the low ball offer by Banner/Lombardi in terms of Mack comment - I could see this too. Who knows. I like Mack, but we've already got a few grossly overpaid players. If Mack truly wants to be here and accepts a fair-market, to maybe slight above fair market value contract - then I will be shocked.
Having a peak at the top five, highest paid centers (in terms of guaranteed money) for 2014:
1 - Ryan Kalil at Center $19,000,000
2 - Nick Mangold at Center $16,097,600
3 - Eric Wood at Center $14,550,000
4 - Chris Myers at Center $14,000,000
5 - Scott Wells at Center $13,000,000
Not saying Alex is top five talent, or not that I am say he isn't - but outta curiosity... if you were Farmer, what type of contract (length/guaranteed money) would you give him?
That's their guarantee total on the contract. You have to hit the salary cap hits tab unless that's what you wanted. This is the cap hit for 2014 and next to it the average per year.
Nick Mangold Jets $9,117,100 $8,186,000
Scott Wells Rams $6,500,000 $7,725,000
Ryan Kalil Panthers $6,400,000 6,458,750
Max Unger Seahawks $6,000,000 $6,350,000
Chris Myers Texans $5,500,000 $6,250,000
I would be ok with a 5 year average of 7.
Expect to pay something between Wells & Mangold, at least. If we're lucky, there won't be a bidding war.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I don't think he should get what Max Unger is being paid. But that's just me.
I think Kalil, Mangold, Unger, and Wells are better. And Eric Wood is quickly becoming as stud as well.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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It's gonna take 5years and 35-40mil with 13-18 of that guaranteed imho. 7-8mil/year AVG
No way Mack takes that - he's going to get $50M with $20M guaranteed on the free market.
Not sure whether he's worth that or not (as others have said, he's not the best C in the league) - but salaries are going up, there's a salary floor kicking in. He's young, and he's a top4-5 center. He'll get paid.
Browns might be lucky to get him at $18M guaranteed. We'll see.
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 02/11/14 11:10 PM.
~Lyuokdea
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To keep him they just simply need to make him the highest paid center in the league. He deserves it too. He would be very hard to replace and is a keystone of the O-line. Plus it will put out a good vibe to the players.
Ward would be great to keep but is far more replaceable than Mack is. Also, far easier to franchise tag him to buy time to find his replacement.
Also, if they are smart, they would front load the contracts, as much as, possible since we have so much cap space this year. That way next year we will again have more cap space to work with.
Last edited by Razorthorns; 02/12/14 03:25 AM.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/02/11/projected-lineups-cleveland-browns/I recommend clicking the link as there's a good chart that can't be copied in here....should be especially interesting for the Schwartz haters and Skrine/Gipson apologists Roster Notes - Did Brian Hoyer look good in his 155-snap cameo this year? He sure did. But his +1.9 grade highlights he didn’t blow us away for his play, as much as Jason Campbell and Brandon Weeden had us smacking our heads on the table. The jury is very much out on what type of player he’ll be. - Alex Mack is set to hit the open market and it leaves the team with no obvious center candidate on the roster. We’ve plugged solid left guard John Greco into that spot for now but the team will surely address the position via the draft or free agency. - One of the more interesting grades is that of D’Qwell Jackson who we’ve put down as a below average starter. Chiefly that comes from his grades over the past two years where he has earned a -20.2 collective for his efforts. The interesting thing? Well when the team used more 4-3 looks he was far better, with a +8.0 grade in 2011. With Mike Pettine a man who uses more of a hybrid scheme he could easily be put in a better situation, with bigger bodies keeping blockers off him. That would likely involve Phil Taylor seeing more than 555 snaps and the team employing, as Pettine does, a transitional nickel defense that leaves some of the bigger bodies on the field instead of going pass rush crazy. - Another player to watch is Desmond Bryant who failed to have the same impact in Cleveland as he did in Oakland in 2012. Go back over the defenses Pettine has coached and you’ll see he’s got every ounce of talent (and then some) out of his defensive line. 2014 Cap Situation They’re looking good with over $45m in cap room already thanks to the money they let ride from last year. Of course with T.J. Ward and Alex Mack about to hit the open market they might figure to eat into some of that before the free agency frenzy begins. One thing is clear and it’s that owner Jimmy Haslem is not scared to spend. Potential Casualties Is D’Qwell Jackson worth the $9.4m (per www.overthecap.com) cap hit that comes with him? The answer is no but can the team afford to lose not only a leader but a player at a position where they are incredibly thin on talent and experience. Nope. More realistic names start with Jason Campbell, where the team can save $3m on a guy who a) will likely be no better than No. 3 on the depth chart, and b) if you’re playing him you’re season is already likely over. A bigger question mark is Ahtyba Rubin for whom the team might want to claw back just under $7m of cap room. If there’s an area the team is deep it’s on the defensive line where there is only so much playing time to go around with Rubin, Bryant, Taylor and impressive role players like John Hughes, Billy Winn and Ishmaa’ily Kitchen. Opportunities from the Roster Speaking of those three they’re in need of more playing time. Hughes scored a hugely impressive +16.3 grade on 402 snaps, while Winn (+7.1) and Kitchen (+0.8) handled themselves well. Pettine isn’t a huge proponent of rotation so you’d expect his three big guys to handle most of the load. There are also some holes in the defensive secondary where Julian Posey (89 snaps in 2013) might emerge as a contender for playing time in place of either Leon McFadden or Buster Skrine who both left a bad taste in the mouth last year. Lastly we expect someone to unseat the disappointing Craig Robertson with in house candidates now Darius Eubanks (88 snaps in 2013) and Tank Carder the first men up, though it wouldn’t be a surprise if they made a splash in the draft of free agency here.
#gmstrong
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I'm not a fan of Pettine not rotating our d-line. That just seems like a huge waste of our best assest with that unit. However, I've felt all along Rubin and DQ might be gone next year.
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I'd understand DQ, because he's has several factors going against him: age, wrong D system and a prohibitive cap number over 9mil, which is way too rich for an ILB, even if he was much better. I'd try approaching his agent with a pay cut. He's not stupid, he knows he won't sniff that money on the market, so something could get done, IF he wants to stay a Brown.
As for Rubin, man, that would be a tough cut. He's in his prime and an above AVG to good and above all CONSISTENT player for years now. I'd hate to lose him and rather overpay him slightly. He's a DL, those guys demand huge dollars and he could come close to that on the market, so I don't think his agent would pick up the phone on a pay cut. I'd keep him. Hughes has proven to be a great rotational player, but we should not bet on him starting and maintaining this productivity. He wasn't even a starter in College. He always was a rotational DL and was drafted to be just that. Let's not repeat the Skrine-mistake here. Also, D.Bryant and his heart condition is another factor. You never know with that stuff, it IS a red flag, especially since it re-occured. I don't want to get caught with our pants down when it comes to the DL: we have good starters and depth. Keep it that way.
I'm sure Pettine will rotate more here. In BUF he had great starters and not much depth. The talent gap was significant, so that certainly played a role. He will rotate more here simply because we have much better depth...maybe not as much, but I actually think that's a good thing, as Taylor needs to play more than just 50-60% of snaps.
#gmstrong
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Man, I don't know how they grade players, but this site is continually off the mark.
Hughes was our best d-lineman?
Dez Bryant wasn't effective?
Hoyer's low rating?
It appears they are stat boys that don't understand the complexities and nuances of the game.
Oh, and I hope they are wrong about Pettine not wanting to rotate defensive linemen. That would be incredibly stupid.
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Quote:
Quote:
Ian Rapoport has sent out a series of Tweets with new information on the Alex Mack front:
Quote:
Positive for Browns: Much better chance of retaining star C Alex Mack. He’ll still test FA. With old regime, he was gone. Could be back now
Link
He then answered a few questions regarding the situation:
Quote:
Offered during the season. Wasn’t deemed reasonable. RT @NFL_ATL: @RapSheet They weren't going to pay him enough under old regime?
Link
Quote:
Bad feelings built up over uncertainty, lack of contract progress RT @CBrink95: @RapSheet why was Mack gone with old regime?
Link
Wasn't that Banners MO in Philly. Dump the high priced FAs?
Doubt seriously Mack or even Ward were coming back. The two Gurus and all their vast knowledge could have easily filled those spots...
That was what was reported back then.. Don't know how true it was that he was the driving force on that subject.
I'm not at all sure that Banner and Lombardi staying or leaving has much effect on whether Mack and Ward return. At this point, it's all about the contract and what they feel will be accomplished here going forward. (actually, it's probably mostly about the money)
So we'll see. If Farmer wants to get off to a good start, he'll make sure Mack and Ward are retained.
Then get us some help in FA and the Draft. Then it's up to Pettine and his guys to mold a winner.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Me thinks, it's YOU not understanding the nuances of their ratings: That's what they actually said about Hoyer: "Did Brian Hoyer look good in his 155-snap cameo this year? He sure did. But his +1.9 grade highlights he didn’t blow us away for his play" Their stats are accumulative and a +1.9 is pretty good in just over two starts. He'd be a +15 if he started 16 games at that level. As for Hughes. He earned almost all of those defending the run in situational situations. He was a beast there. If we force him to start he'd lose his efficiency, as he's not a good pass rusher. It does not mean he was our best DL overall. They still differentiate their grades a lot (run-pass, blitz-coverage etc etc). Overall, Bryant is the better 3 down DL, no one would dispute that over there. I again invite anyone to click on this link to see a pretty good chart overview of our talent level on any starting position as of today. It pretty much reflects of what I've been saying about it: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/02/11/projected-lineups-cleveland-browns/Here's the breakdown for you lazy posters: 1 Elite Starter: LT Joe Thomas 2 High Quality Starters (trending Elite): CB Haden and WR Gordon 2 Solid Starters (trending High Quality): OLB Sheard and RT Schwartz 3 Solid Starters: NT Taylor, DE Rubin and TE Cameron 2 Adequate Starters (trending Solid): OLB Kruger and DE D.Bryant 1 Adequate Starter: G/C Greco 2 Below AVG Starters (trending Adequate): FS Gipson and OG Pinkston 4 below AVG Starters: TE2 Barnidge, WRsl Benjamin, ILB DQ and CB2 Skrine 2 Poor Starters: WR2 Little and ILB Robertson 5 Unknowns: QB Hoyer, RB Baker, RG Gilkey, CB McFadden and SS Poyer
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As always.........a difference in opinion.
I don't buy those rankings. You think they are revealing.
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Another thing to keep in mind is that their "tier rankings" is dependent from league wide talent at their positions. A Solid starter such as Cameron maybe has a better overall grade than Schwartz, but there are more good TEs around than OTs etc. In other words: Schwartz is more valuable than Cameron compared to the AVG at their positions. It's like the "above replacement level" stat in baseball. I hope Farmer is aware of those kind of important stats when he talks about using advanced stats etc
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As always.........a difference in opinion.
I don't buy those rankings. You think they are revealing.
they cannot be the end-all, be-all, but they are rather enlightening. they are a site full of people who break down everything play-by-play. it's amazing that we can get such content these days IMO.
however, there are certain items where they lack (and, notably, they often admit to where they lack). they can determine if an OL blocked his man, but they cannot be certain he blocked the correct man. they don't know if the OL/QB called out the correct protection scheme. they don't know if the QB read the defense wrong or the WR ran the wrong route for the defense. there is most definitely a gap.
but, I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. these guys take what they do very seriously and they make every attempt to get it right. it's (at least) another good barometer and data point for discussions.
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Let's look at the Bills DL last year .....
Branch: 39 tackles
Bryant: 14 tackles
Carrington: 10 tackles
Charles: 12 tackles
Dareus: 71 tackles
Hughes: 46 tackles
Mario Williams: 38 tackles
Kyle Williams: 66 tackles
Now I am sure that they changed up fronts and such throughout the season ..... but I believe that these were their primary DL last year. It seems like they switched up a far amount.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Ian Rapoport has sent out a series of Tweets with new information on the Alex Mack front:
Quote:
Positive for Browns: Much better chance of retaining star C Alex Mack. He’ll still test FA. With old regime, he was gone. Could be back now
Link
He then answered a few questions regarding the situation:
Quote:
Offered during the season. Wasn’t deemed reasonable. RT @NFL_ATL: @RapSheet They weren't going to pay him enough under old regime?
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Bad feelings built up over uncertainty, lack of contract progress RT @CBrink95: @RapSheet why was Mack gone with old regime?
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So wait, are we allowed to post twitter now?
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
Yes. Read the "Board Changes" thread stickied at the top of each forum.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,436
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,436 |
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Yes. Read the "Board Changes" thread cleverly hidden, stickied at the top of each forum.
Fixed it for you.  
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
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but, I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. these guys take what they do very seriously and they make every attempt to get it right. it's (at least) another good barometer and data point for discussions.
I wasn't being clear. My apologies. I don't disregard them. I think it is a nice tool that aides discussion. I just don't rely on them when my eyes tell me something very different.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
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but, I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. these guys take what they do very seriously and they make every attempt to get it right. it's (at least) another good barometer and data point for discussions.
I wasn't being clear. My apologies. I don't disregard them. I think it is a nice tool that aides discussion. I just don't rely on them when my eyes tell me something very different.
that's fair. I generally use them to confirm what I think I am seeing. If they tell me the opposite, then I pay more attention in games to see which is more correct (IMO of course).
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,311
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,311 |
Chris Wesseling, Around the League writer for NFL.com, says yesterday's moves could keep Alex Mack in Cleveland.
"Considered as good as gone under outgoing CEO Joe Banner and general manager Michael Lombardi, impending free-agent center Alex Mack and wide receiver Greg Little now have a chance to stick around. A source close to Mack has told NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport that the two-time Pro Bowl player was set to fly the coop after bad feelings had built up with the old front office. The Browns didn't approach Mack with an offer last offseason and made what he believed to be a 'cursory effort' during the 2013 season. Mack still will test free agency, but the new regime is more interested in retaining him. Owner Jimmy Haslam is a 'big fan,' per Rapoport."
Lombardi gone, Banner gone, Weeden wanting out, working on an extension to keep Haden and now this and TJ tweeted congrats to Farmer yesterday and this is the best couple of days around here in a while
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 |
The more I read, the more I see the players like and respect Farmer and not so much the former GM.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,998
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,998 |
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack and T.J. Ward
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