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Quote:
Alex Mack wants answers before contract talks with Browns resume
Blame it on Rio: Negotiations aimed at keeping Browns Pro Bowl center Alex Mack off the free agent market won’t begin until Mack returns from a humanitarian trip to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, at the end of the month, his agent told ESPN Cleveland.
That will leave the Browns less than two weeks to get a deal done before the start of free agency on March 11.
While the Browns had at least two sets of negotiations with Mack and agent Marv Demoff in 2013, nothing has transpired since October – when the sides couldn’t arrive at a dollar figure and were off by a year on length of a deal. The Browns wanted a five-year contract; Mack initially wanted three years and then agreed to four, said another source familiar with the talks.
They agreed to revisit negotiations in January. But those plans were interrupted when the Browns abruptly changed coaches in January and then made an even more unexpected front-office shakeup in February.
Now Mack has a lot of questions about the future direction of the team, Demoff told ESPN Cleveland.
Negotiations will not restart until Mack gets them answered in face-to-face meetings when he returns from Brazil, where he has conducted football clinics with Browns teammates Gary Barnidge, Jordan Cameron, Barkevious Mingo and Johnson Bademosi.
Getting to know you: Demoff told ESPN Cleveland: “I think the most important thing is Alex really would want to meet the (new) coaches. He was pretty close to (former offensive line coach George) Warhop, and liked (former head coach Rob) Chudzinski. Everything he had in Cleveland is changed. Warhop was a constant for five years. He’s gone. There’s a different head coach, different offensive coordinator, different offensive line coach.
“If you’re looking at this from an intelligent point of view, there’s more to it than money. You have to believe in what you’re doing. I want Alex first to be able to sign off and say I’m fine with all the changes and where they’re headed.”
Since the season ended, Chudzinski has been replaced by Mike Pettine, Warhop has been replaced by Andy Moeller and offensive coordinator Norv Turner has been replaced by Kyle Shanahan.
“The thing that Cleveland has most going for it,” Demoff said, “is Alex really wants to play in a place where football is really important. He’s loved that about Cleveland. And he’s always been excited about being a part of building something that eventually wins. There has just been false starts and stops in Cleveland.
“Alex was real excited when they were 4-5 (in 2013). And that was roughly the time he really wanted to be in Cleveland and they turned his numbers down. Alex’s numbers were rejected and at that point it was tabled until after the season.”
Most of the talks last year were conducted by Sashi Brown, executive vice president/legal counsel, on behalf of former CEO Joe Banner. While it was commonly believed that Banner did not place a high value on the position of center – and that attitude may have impeded a new deal – Demoff said that was not the case.
“I think that’s unfair,” Demoff said. “Joe probably had a number in mind for Alex and he believed his numbers were where he wanted to be. I think he looked at Alex as more than a position. I think they honestly believed Alex was a leader, had high character, and besides just being a player he was someone who they wanted to represent the franchise. If all those things didn’t exist, I don’t think Joe valued a center like a tackle. But in fairness to Joe, he always was nothing but complimentary to Alex. I never got any impression that he didn’t value Alex.
“Alex has felt respected and valued by the Browns. That’s never been a question of his, before or now.”
Going forward: After lengthy discussions involving Pettine, new GM Ray Farmer, and owner Jimmy Haslam, the Browns are anxious to resume talks with Demoff and Mack.
Applying the franchise tag on Mack – both sides agree – is not a smart move. The franchise figure for all offensive linemen – centers, as well as tackles – is about $11 million. That’s a prohibitive number for a center. Playing one year at that salary figure would not result in a long-term deal.
Demoff said he doesn’t think the constant change in coaches and front office regimes is a deal-breaker with Mack.
“I really think not,” he said. “I think that the most appropriate thing is to give the people there the opportunity to explain what happened, but also, most importantly, where they’re going and what they see ahead and whether that meshes with what Alex thinks. I’ve told him, and I think he’s totally willing to do it, to have a total open mind, start with a clean slate and see where it goes.”
Mack not only is by far the best center in free agency but easily in the top five of all offensive linemen available starting March 11. Still, Demoff said that Mack has not mentally committed to going through the free agency process.
“During the season, he was playing football with the Browns. When he was negotiating in October, he was negotiating a long-term deal for the Browns. Once that didn’t happen, he put it aside. He didn’t put a circle on March 11 on his calendar,” Demoff said.
http://espncleveland.com/commo...g&r=17&post_id=288
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I am certain that all of this had something to do with the dismissal of Banner and Lombardi.
It's Mack doing his due diligence. I hope Pettine can win him over.
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I agree.. 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Quote:
“Alex was real excited when they were 4-5 (in 2013). And that was roughly the time he really wanted to be in Cleveland and they turned his numbers down. Alex’s numbers were rejected and at that point it was tabled until after the season.”
I know they go on to say that Sasha Brown was working the deal but I have to believe that (as the article alludes to) that Banner held the purse strings.
Ya know, that's the kinda thing we heard about Banner when he was first brought in here by Haslam. For all I know, stuff like this may be part of the reason he's getting the Ax.
You gotta admit, Demoff didn't throw Banner under a bus. It would be easy to do but he didn't do it. That's pretty smart on his part.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I wish I didn't have a bad feeling about Mack. I am seeing him either getting ridiculously over-paid or leaving.
What questions could Browns answer for him to give him peace of mind?
"Sure, Pettine & Farmer will be the guys & will be here long after you retire."
"We're trying harder than EVER to put a winner on the field."
"Jimmy here will be all KINDS of patient. No more itchy trigger finger! Ha ha.."
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I don't know why Mack would stay. I wouldn't.
There are too many positives on the other side of the ledger for him.
The only things I can think of that might sway him are if he really wants to be in Cleveland and/or enjoys his line mates that much. He has never struck me as the "I want to build a winner in Cleveland" or "I want to finish what we started here" kind of a guy. I don't think I've ever read anything to that effect either. And now he wants the Browns to "address" his concerns. Just move on already. I don't know why people are really all that worked up over Mack to begin with.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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2nd String
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1.) Browns are the team that took him in the first round when he was drafted
2.) He has had pro-bowl type success here
3.) The team clearly wants him, and he will get paid here most likely as much as he would anywhere else
4.) He could believe this team is on the brink of winning and contending - they have cap space and 6 pro-bowlers as well as 10 draft picks
5.) It's easier to stay where you are than get up and move your entire life
6.) It seems like our team gets along well with each other
7.) The weather is amazing (ok not this one)
Seriously though, there are some reasons for him to stay, as there are also some reasons for him to leave.
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The closest I come to being "worked up" over Mack is just from not wanting to address the center position in the draft or free agency.
From what I've read, there are only 2, maybe 3 starting-caliber centers worth drafting. Maybe that was written by people not knowing what they were talking about.
Maybe someone we already have can slide on over & start snapping the ball.
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Maybe someone we already have can slide on over & start snapping the ball.
Because we are so talented and deep at the OG position?
yebat' Putin
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Also, if we go with a rook at QB, you don't want him to take snaps from a rookie C, hand the ball off to a rookie RB and throw to rooks at WR2 and slot WR....just saying. At some point, if you want "experience" and "leadership", you gotta PAY for it instead of going with "potential down the road" again. Fun question: Would any of you trade Mack for Greco, Campbell, Pinkston and Barnidge? Yeah, me neither, but if we release those 4 players, we'd save over 8mil in cap  Pretty much what we'd have to pay Ward or Mack...and after that, we'd still have 45mil of cap to spend We could basically re-sign Ward AND Mack by trading/cutting Rubin, Campbell, Greco, Pinkston and Barnidge WITHOUT eating up any of our cap space of 45mil if we want to. That's 15mil in savings right there... I'd hate to lose Rubin, but if we could fetch a 3rd or 4th from some team that is willing to give him a new contract and re-sign Ward and Mack with the money saved in the process....that could very well be the best value mid to long term considering our DL depth and since Rubin is a FA after 2014 anyway.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Just clicking
If we over X and a Non Contending team offers the same, I'd guess he stays here. Just a guess of course.
But if we offer X and a contending team (denver, seattle, SF, Pats, Pitts, Ravens etc) offers the same contract, he'll go to a contender.. That's my guess.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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All Pro
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Quote:
Just clicking
If we over X and a Non Contending team offers the same, I'd guess he stays here. Just a guess of course.
But if we offer X and a contending team (denver, seattle, SF, Pats, Pitts, Ravens etc) offers the same contract, he'll go to a contender.. That's my guess.
Can't really blame him for that. Money is nice. Money and winning is nicer.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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I'm hopeful that they do everything within financial reason to re-sign him. One or both of the guard positions is unsettled.The team can't risk gutting the whole interior of the o-line and expect to be competitive. The article posted above suggests that he was focused on getting a new deal with the Brown's before talks broke off earlier this year. It would be good news if both sides could recapture that momentum.
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I know they go on to say that Sasha Brown was working the deal but I have to believe that (as the article alludes to) that Banner held the purse strings.
Ya know, that's the kinda thing we heard about Banner when he was first brought in here by Haslam. For all I know, stuff like this may be part of the reason he's getting the Ax.
You gotta admit, Demoff didn't throw Banner under a bus. It would be easy to do but he didn't do it. That's pretty smart on his part.
Another thing about Banner, and perhaps Mack's attitude ... if I'm remembering correctly .. wasn't Banner's opinion early on that Mack was too light and needed to be heavier, kind of discounting his value. Interesting given a Pro Bowl performance year. Not to minimize anything, of course anyone would want the 'perfect' player but IMO I'm thinking there was something to the Banner/Mack relationship. It made very good sense to resign him early on to establish a 'continuity attitude' on the part of upper management in building a team. Not exactly like the Ward situation because Mack was already a Pro Bowler then. But, what do I know?
Last edited by chet the jet; 02/19/14 10:16 PM.
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Quote:
Quote:
I know they go on to say that Sasha Brown was working the deal but I have to believe that (as the article alludes to) that Banner held the purse strings.
Ya know, that's the kinda thing we heard about Banner when he was first brought in here by Haslam. For all I know, stuff like this may be part of the reason he's getting the Ax.
You gotta admit, Demoff didn't throw Banner under a bus. It would be easy to do but he didn't do it. That's pretty smart on his part.
Another thing about Banner, and perhaps Mack's attitude ... if I'm remembering correctly .. wasn't Banner's opinion early on that Mack was too light and needed to be heavier, kind of discounting his value. Kind of interesting given a Pro Bowl performance year. Not to minimize anything, of course anyone would want the 'perfect' player but IMO I'm thinking there was something to the Banner/Mack relationship. It made very good sense to resign him early on to establish a 'continuity attitude' on the part of upper management in building a team. Not exactly like the Ward situation because Mack was already a Pro Bowler then. But, what do I know?
I don't remember that, but I'm not discounting it either. Sounds like something Banner would be reported to have believed.. But we don't know for sure and probably never will..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Mack is one of the biggest centers in the league. I'd be really surprised if that was said.
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Maybe it was something like being more physical. I just remember something that made me think Banner didn't think highly of Mack early on so I wasn't really surprised nothing got done to resign him.
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j/c Wondering if anyone knowledgeable about OL can answer this for me.. Where do you guys rank Mack in terms of talent? Maybe I have been spoiled by the play of Wohlabaugh, Faine and Fraley but I don't see this massive improvement difference with Mack starting. I don't hear about pancakes or great line calls. Would it be fair to say LeCharles Bentley (god rest his knee) was a significantly better center than Mack? For example I think you could debate the merits of Orlando Pace (HoF) vs. Joe Thomas. But Mack is more in that pro-bowl but not elite/HoF category ? I really pay about zero attention to the Oline unless they get a pancake or get pancaked so any insight would be helpful 
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~ Legend
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Easily in the top 5. There's few guys who are 5 years into their career where they're HoF material. That said, I don't think he's going to be HoF, but what does a HoF center look like? What does an elite center look like? Jeff Saturday? That's the only one I can think of.
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I don't think it was a case of 'Banner? Screw that guy, I'm out of here!' from the get go.
But he was obviously turned off by the regime, and made his feelings known.
Maybe not in the most professional of ways, but in a fairly thought-out manner, nonetheless.
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LeCharles Bentley in NO was the best OC I have seen the past 10-15 years. Absolutely mauling people. Sigh.
Koppen and Birk are better examples of the usual very good center (like Mack). They are not usually going to jump off the page at you but they just seem to always do their job well, get to the next level, and reportedly lead their OL off the field.
#gmstrong
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LCB was in a class by himself. As for the Browns...one of best and worst moments 
Mack...just remember this. He had a new offense in 09-2010 obviously cause he was a rookie. A new Offense in 2011, 2012 a new OC but same offense. A new offense in 2013 and he made the Pro Bowl. Now another new offense. I thought he handled his One on one battles actually made good calls to get the proper Chip blocks on NT and in 4-3 he would chip block and get to the 2nd level well.
In 2013 We had 4 different RGs due to the Injuries of Lava so there were obvious miss communications in the passing off of certain Pass Rushers. Every now and then you would have one completely missed by Greco the RG take your pick all of them had them and a few rare times Mack himself would get overwhelmed as he thought he had help somewhere and so when he initially took half the body the speed of the DT was to much to catch up. So one miss communication can mess up the entire play. Ergo the meaning of Continuity on the OL is almost greater than talent especially in the Interior. Rarely now a days is it Mono en Mono - there is a lot of movement on the OL and DL and angles are the key. Strength helps but its the feet that count. And I'm talking Interior right now.
I really like Mack's feet he understands a lot of Defenses which means he knows how to watch film. He has gotten better each season with his technique...some seasons might look like a step back but remember its usually the unit and continuity. He really like Warhop the only OL coach that he had...losing him if there is a reason he would prefer to move on is the fact that we lost Warhop. But the sign of a good coach is not only X's n O's and teaching but he has to sell the Goals and Schemes they will pursue. Right now Mack w/Browns there is a big void for him. It has to be filled as soon as he gets back - if he gets into it and talks to other members of the OL and they are into it. We got a good shot at signing him I think.
We will be in a OH NO situation...not that bad. It will be a shame to not keep a drafted player who has succeeded. But its not a situation that will have us in a deep hole. This is by itself...now if this starts a reoccurring theme...then it becomes very troublesome...Why I wish we do sign him outside of the obvious reasons. I don't wish this to be a start of a trend for the O..I think the D is easier to have unity for some reason.
JMHO - we need that QB! If Hoyer studs out the O will want to keep in place. If the rookie studs out the O will want to keep in place. If we continue to struggle...one by one they will leave.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Salary cap will increase by 7 million.
http://mweb.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foo...hly-130-million
so... what I read:
Preliminary NFL 2014 salary cap: $126.3 million (as of Dec. 11, 2013)
Browns' salary-cap room: $46,584,334 as of dec 11
Adjusted salary cap: $150,494,764 as of dec 11
basically, we can add another 4 million to the projections.
and the adjusted will be around 155 mill and we should have 50 mill in space.
If I understand this right...
we need to lock up some long term front loaded contracts now and it will help us in 4-5 years(for serious talent) if we keep front loading contracts.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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We can front load contracts ... or just carry over cap space. I don't believe that there is a "use it or lose it" limit on carryover. I could be wrong, but I really don't remember seeing anything like that in my readings of the CBA.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You have to spend 90% of your salary cap over a 4 year period (2013-2016). I'm not sure it'd be in our best interest to wait another year.
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You have to spend 90% of your salary cap over a 4 year period (2013-2016). I'm not sure it'd be in our best interest to wait another year.
However, you don't have to touch that carryover until you decide to. Frankly, without a franchise QB, we shouldn't spend any more than 91% of the cap.
I would hold on to that cap space in case we stumble our way into a franchise QB. It would be great to be able to re-sign such a guy without having to gut the team. A franchise QB is the single biggest expense a team has, and if they don't have one, then they shouldn't be anywhere near 100% of the cap.
JMHO
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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but, I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. these guys take what they do very seriously and they make every attempt to get it right. it's (at least) another good barometer and data point for discussions.
I wasn't being clear. My apologies. I don't disregard them. I think it is a nice tool that aides discussion. I just don't rely on them when my eyes tell me something very different.
There is something to both obviously, but PFF is the most reputable site on the net for my money.
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Hear the possibility of reunion between Browns coach Mike Pettine and S Jairus Byrd is real. Bills could complicate with a tag & trade tho
Ian Rapoport, Twitter
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Browns would get a playmaker in Jairus Byrd, while Pettine gets someone who could teach their defense to teammates. Would mean Ward walks
Ian Rapoport, Twitter
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Too much invested at one spot RT @Believeland24x7: @RapSheet why couldn't they have both Byrd at FS and Ward at SS?
Ian Rapoport, Twitter
While I love Ward, I would take Byrd over him every time. They are pretty much the same age and Byrd's skillset is more rare.
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Would mean Ward walks
Assuming the quote is Ian Rappaport...Its just his opinion. Which regarding the Browns is almost worthless. I respect YOUR personal opinion over his any day regarding our Browns.
1st off nowhere does would that mean Ward walks.
2nd they play 2 different positions.
3rd we have the cap room to make these kind of moves.
4th maybe 3-4 years from now we change the money or release one or heck maybe even both by then...depends who we end up developing from the draft.
jmho but probably better than Ian's
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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jmho but probably better than Ian's
For the most part these insider guys don't just say stuff to say stuff. They say it because somebody wants it out there. Whether it is true or not is another thing.
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I agree. One of the few benefits of not having our franchise QB is that we aren't paying a franchise QB. So, we have an extra $10-15mil in cap room that can afford such luxuries like having the best S-tandem in the NFL.
Once we draft Bridgewater, we'll have him locked in for 4-5 years and will have to worry about paying him $20mil/year after it because he'll have won 2 Superbowls for us by then. But, let's not get ahead of ourselves.
(hey, why not dream big. really, really insanely big)
#gmstrong
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(hey, why not dream big. really, really insanely big)
Hoyer wins the MVP and we have to pay him after next season.
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Oh and I believe that to be true regarding his Power Point was to say that it is a REAL POSSIBILITY that he n Pettine will have a reunion.
The part about Ward was made up Bozo stuff 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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(hey, why not dream big. really, really insanely big)
Hoyer wins the MVP and we have to pay him after next season.
If it's the SB MVP, Pay the man 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
(hey, why not dream big. really, really insanely big)
Hoyer wins the MVP and we have to pay him after next season.
where we tag him and end up trading him for 3x1st round picks. Bridgewater takes over as QB (as he as Hoyer's backup) and we use those 3 picks on 2 HOFers and a mere 3 time pro-bowler (pick a position, any position).
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
If I'm not mistaken, Rapoport's recent batting average is pretty awful.
He's probably the least likely person I would put any stock into at the moment. Not to mention the Ward stuff just sounded like an educated guess ... hell, the Byrd stuff probably is as well.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,998
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,998 |
I mirror some other peoples' comments and say how come we cannot have both? The "too much money" argument at the safety positions would make sense IF we had little cap space and/or we had a player (like a QB) who was gonna get $15M+/year or something like that. We do not fall into either category and having such a large cap space this year allows us to front load a good amount of contracts (primarily w/ guaranteed $$) for a situation like this. Also, and someone opined about this either in this thread or another, in that don't we have to spend a certain amount of $ over a 4 year period near the cap ceiling? I don't think we hit anywhere near that mark in two years' time. I almost feel like we are going to HAVE to spend $ this offseason. Maybe I'm wrong about that....most likely I am. My guess at this point--IF we sign someone like Byrd, we would still franchise Ward to see how he plays alongside Byrd. If it becomes evident the defense can be lethal with both of them, perhaps we see something more for Ward in the future, kinda like Seattle's safeties. If Bryd's presence can allow for a mediocre SS, then perhaps we see Ward go somewhere else. @cfrs: I agree with this-- Quote:
For the most part these insider guys don't just say stuff to say stuff. They say it because somebody wants it out there. Whether it is true or not is another thing.
The question is who and why?
Last edited by MemphisBrownie; 02/21/14 05:25 PM.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
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Quote:
Quote:
jmho but probably better than Ian's
For the most part these insider guys don't just say stuff to say stuff. They say it because somebody wants it out there. Whether it is true or not is another thing.
But he has to start rebuilding his credibility, doesn't he?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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jc 2. T.J. Ward 2013 Grade: +14.5 2013 Snaps: 1124 Summary: There might not be a player who was helped more during the Seahawks’ championship run than Cleveland safety, T.J. Ward. Being the ultimate “copycat” league, teams will be trying to replicate the way Seattle plays defense and at the top of that list will be finding intimidating safeties. Ward fits that mold perfectly and is as complete of a safety as you will find. He has been the highest-graded among his position mates against the run for the last two seasons and is no slouch against the pass either. He was credited with 29 stops on running plays, five more than any other safety in 2013. To further display his strong all-around play, quarterbacks had just a 61.3 rating when throwing his direction. The most underutilized part of Ward’s game is his ability to blitz. He generated five pressures and two sacks on just 20 pass rushing opportunities last year. The 27-year-old Ward is just entering his prime years and will be highly sought after in free agency. With all the unrest in Cleveland, there is still a possibility that Ward doesn’t hit the market, but he is in line for a big pay day somewhere. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/02/21/ranking-the-2014-free-agents-safeties/
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"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack and T.J. Ward
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