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It makes [Watkins] another weapon. Which we don't have alot of
We have arguably the best receiver in the NFL and a very good tight end. That is a pretty good start.
It will awesome when we sign Eric Decker in the coming weeks and all of this Watkins discussion becomes moot.
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I'd love to have Decker..
And Watkins.
And Tre Mason...
And some new Guards..
All possible. Think a QB could flourish in that offense?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Saying you don't want two high quality WRs on your team seems silly to me. I'm sorry just where did I say that. I'm saying its not necessary...In another thread I'm stating that the #2 is no reason NOT TO TAKE WATKINS that its just a number and the kid is special.
And Pete here is your argument in a nutshell:
I just don't think the QB's are top 5 worthy
My argument is not in that endless debate. My argument is that if there is a top worthy QB you "HAVE" take him "IF" you do not have THE GUY already. That its not well we can always get one later...no sorry the QBs, The LTs the odds of getting one "LATER" is slim very slim!
Getting a great WR later...let me see where did we get Gordon...oh that's right in a suplamental 2nd round pick.
I have never said you do NOT need WRs good ones. I'm saying if you have a choice of a Great WR n good to Great QB and you need both Its a no brainer. Really that's it.
As for my comment about Atlanta...and they have won how many Playoff games with a Julio Jones? I am not the one making a beef about no taking him. What I'm saying just how much better off is Atlanta...not much and yet there is the fact thrown out there as look how well that worked out for Atlanta...I'm asking WHERE?
Some how I'm a WR hater. I actually have pimped Watkins  I think he's special but only if our targeted QB is not there at 4...not instead of our targeted QB that is all I"m saying with you Pete. Your response is there is no QB worthy with our pick - well that your opinion and that is ok. But not the subject I was talking about.
all in all its Jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I took Quote:
NOBODY has won a championship because of their WRs.
As you saying we shouldn't put (another) high pick into a WR...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Not at all.
tough to communicate on a message board - in a room putting away some beers we can make ourselves clear...well up until the 5th beer...lol 
What I'm saying is we more than likely 99% sure have a QB targeted for #4. I don't think we wish to compete in some sell off to #1 or 2 just figure on a targeted guy not named Bridgewater cause if he's there viola one of the biggest steals of the draft.
but back to what I'm saying. He's not there. That more than likely means all or at least two of the following will be at our pick Clowney, Watkins and Robinsion. Who outside of QB I see as the 3 best players in this draft. Remember QBs all move up from where they would be RATED the position does that its a fact.
If we are looking at a 4-3 it would be very hard to not take Clowney. If he's gone I would not mind Watkins one bit and I am not opposed to taking a developmental QB in the 3rd or 4th...not as a plan but only because our target was not there at #4!
Robinson btw could be more of an O changer for us than Watkins. He can be a great RT year one! Change our entire run game possibilities as well.
Schwartz might kick over to LG or if Mack re-signs over to RG n Greco is LG. Anyway - those are 3 very special ball players.
Not out of NEED...cause my opinion of need at WR is much different than many on this board. But because he will be great and the NEED we got are gone before our pick. So we got to Option 2.
Also somewhere in there is lets say Clowney is there and we got all 3 in at our pick - do we auction off Clowney getting a 2nd from #6 who knew they had to leap frog to get Clowney.. this way if #5 takes Watkins we take Robinson...vice versa Robinson gone we take Watkins...its an option. Note we don't NEED Robinson but I'm willing to think about him cause he will be a great player...Same as Watkins we don't NEED him but he will be a great player.
Note you are more apt to get a Very very good, WR in the next 2 rounds then you would OT or DE or QB.
Jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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As for my comment about Atlanta...and they have won how many Playoff games with a Julio Jones?
And again....what does that have to do with picking Julio Jones where they did....There are all sorts of reasons a team does not win a playoff game. It does not change the fact that Atlanta did well by picking Julio Jones where they did.
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What I'm saying just how much better off is Atlanta...not much and yet there is the fact thrown out there as look how well that worked out for Atlanta...I'm asking WHERE?
WHERE??? really??? Come on eo...you are so MUCH better than that. You are telling me that you look at Atlanta's offense with Jones, White, (at the time) Gonzalez, and Ryan and don't think "awwww Hell!!!...how the heck are we supposed to stop this???" Heck when Turner is on it makes it even scarier...But with just Roddy White...it wasn't nearly as explosive as when Jones came into the picture. Where??? come on....are you really going to try and pull that with me??? I know I haven't been posting much lately...but you know me and I have been around for a while.
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My argument is that if there is a top worthy QB you "HAVE" take him
I agree...completely.....but I don't see one of those QB's in this draft. So you have to look at what is going to help your team the most. IMHO that is to take Watkins and a QB later....
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Some how I'm a WR hater.
Where did I say this????
I simply put up reasons why I would go ahead and take Watkins at 4 even tho most would say Not WR or definitely not a #2 WR....from then on, I then just tried to counterpoint your responses...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Robinson btw could be more of an O changer for us than Watkins. He can be a great RT year one! Change our entire run game possibilities as well.
Schwartz might kick over to LG or if Mack re-signs over to RG n Greco is LG. Anyway - those are 3 very special ball players.
THIS. I've been saying for a while that while I like Teddy enough to trade up and Johnny enough to take him at 4 I'm not sure either are likely or possible.
As my contingency plan I really would love a great RT. Nothing against Schwartz. This idea only comes because I'm confident he has a skillset to not only transition but exceed and overachieve at OG in Shannys offense. It would strengthen two positions at once and possibly turn an above average OL into the best in the league in one pick.
The factor most aren't talking about is Joe Thomas's contract. After 2015 Joe no longer has any guaranteed money. Not to say we should cut him at all. A 1st rounder now gets a 5 year contract. Putting our 1st rounders this year locked up until 2019. Coincidentally the rookie OT's contract and Joe's contract would end at the same time.
Joe will be 34 when his contract runs out. I love him but there's a good chance he will be nearly done if not cut worthy because of cap reasons if you guys can be realistic with me.
RT have been made valuable in todays NFL with dominant passrushers on both ends rather than the right side as was the norm. The trend is starting to have balanced tackles to keep a defense honest.
Robinson would be a phenomenal RT in any scheme and with his raw potential Joe would be a perfect mentor to learn from. Similar to Jadeveon learning from Watt. The same could be said about Mathews but I view him as a poor mans Joe. Robinson is a different kind of animal. Very enticing.
Like I said I would trade up for Teddy and take Johnny at 4 but if Both are impossible or deemed unfit by the FO I could really get behind a move like Robinson or Mathews. QB, LT, then C,RT,TE/WR are tied for me as importance in today's NFL to have elite talent. The fact that this move could potentially finish our line by strengthening two positions at once and put us in a good situation in the future at LT is very enticing to me. Maybe more so than a trade down.
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Predator added Matthews to your list of top players, which I agree with.
I would also like to add Khalil Mack to that group.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Predator added Matthews to your list of top players, which I agree with.
I would also like to add Khalil Mack to that group.
I like this kid a lot. I just hope we dont pick him. I want Watkins, Bridgewater, or a trade with the Raiders.
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Quote:
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Farmer seems to have a plan and has eluded to already having a QB in mind and also that it might not be who we think it is or necessarily at #4...
Let's hope he is trying to "elude" the question, rather than "alluding" to his true feelings. LOL
Once again I've been busted out by the english professor. Thanks for correcting my usage of the word. You're right as usual and must live for moments like this; glad I could provide that for you. 
I wasn't making fun of you. I just thought it was kind of cool that either word would fit, but the meaning of the sentence would be totally different.
Sorry if I came across the wrong way. I promise............that was not my intent. I just like to play w/words.
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Predator added Matthews to your list of top players, which I agree with.
I would also like to add Khalil Mack to that group.
I like this kid a lot. I just hope we dont pick him. I want Watkins, Bridgewater, or a trade with the Raiders.
Not to stir the pot BUT if Sheard could land us a 1st I'd trade him in a heartbeat to land us Mack. I really like the kid. Reminds me of a more agile Suggs.
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Sheard wouldn't land us a 4th round pick.
I like the kid, but he doesn't have that kind of value. Very few guys do.
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Sheard wouldn't land us a 4th round pick.
I like the kid, but he doesn't have that kind of value. Very few guys do.
Especially since Indy doesn't have a 1st rounder to give away 
(hey, a joke on a different team? those exist, sweet)
#gmstrong
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Sheard wouldn't land us a 4th round pick.
I like the kid, but he doesn't have that kind of value. Very few guys do.
Sheard was our most productive pass rusher and has performed well and started for three years in the NFL and is still young on a cheap rook contract.
If that doesn't land us a 4th, then Mingo and Kruger aren't even worth a 6th. There are numerous teams and GMs that would Love to trade a late 1st/early 2nd for a proven guy like that instead of having to hope for and develop a prospect. Ridiculous.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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WHERE??? really??? Come on eo...you are so MUCH better than that.
Again...the fact is the team didn't get better - did teams have to game plan against them with more execution. Yes. More dangerous yes, but defenses found a way to hold them back enough to win about the same amount of games. My point and always my point is Jones is a good ball player but WRs are way over rated as good as Jones is the results for the Falcons are pretty much the same and this year 3 years after the trade they are picking #5...oh they had injuries...When have we not had injuries. To justify the trade as in we made a mistake - I don't see much of a change. WRs won't carry a team ergo my comment a WR never won a championship. Heck Gordon had the 2 most prolific games a WR in the history of the NFL had...and we lost both.
Fantasy Football has proliferated the value of WR to most people. Not in real football. Getting a Jones would not help the Falcons as much as ALDON SMITH would have. Scary? to who? I guarantee the defenses weren't scared - Challenged yes, not scared. Fans scary yes.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Quote:
Sheard wouldn't land us a 4th round pick.
I like the kid, but he doesn't have that kind of value. Very few guys do.
Sheard was our most productive pass rusher and has performed well and started for three years in the NFL and is still young on a cheap rook contract.
If that doesn't land us a 4th, then Mingo and Kruger aren't even worth a 6th. There are numerous teams and GMs that would Love to trade a late 1st/early 2nd for a proven guy like that instead of having to hope for and develop a prospect. Ridiculous.
I agree. I think that a 4-3 team could very well inquire about Sheard. I like the kid but he simply may not fit the schemes that we'll be running. I know, Pettine said that he would work to get the best out of players no matter the schemes they fit. That he'll find a place for them. I think he was talking about the draft, but it would inherently apply to guys on the team now. I'm not sure that I buy that too much, but if he can make some players fit, then great. If he can't make others fit, they should be traded for compensation.
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Right because in Jones' first 2 years on the team they only won 23 games and played in 3 playoff games...last year everyone was hurt including him...It happens...we know that more than anyone...So yeah...I guess he didn't help them at all....  Also they went from middle of the pack in passing offense to #6....But hey yeah....that doesn't matter.....all that matters is that the Atlanta Falcons didn't do well last year....when their Offense was all banged up to hell and they couldn't put their full team on the field...as long as you can make a point with that  Go with it.... Look I understand you want QB over Watkins...hey...fine go with it...I disagree...and that is fine too....But don't try and snow me over as if your opinion is LAW...especially when your are wrong....and for what????...to prop up your case to take QB???? I don't care if you want QB over WR...That is great..go with that...I simply posted why I liked WR in THIS particular draft. The straight fact is that Atlanta is perfectly happy with their pick of Jones....It gave their offense a whole new dimension that (I am sorry) teams are not just "challenged" by....Teams were getting their butt's whooped by the Atlanta Offense. Last year is a perfect example of what INJURIES can do to you and ALSO bolsters my point....an injury to Gordon....and where...are...we????
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Oh and had they gotten Aldon Smith...I agree that it very well could have changed them...but who is to say if they would have been better or worse....Much of it is about the situation. Could Courtney Brown been a Hall of Famer somewhere else???? We pretty much know for sure that had we picked Donavan McNabb that we probably would have ruined him....Would Russell Wilson have the same success anywhere else but Seattle???
Colin Kaepernick in San Fran? Did Suh transform Detroit into a playoff team? ( just going on that one player does NOT make a team and it is about situations...)
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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And if we had Matt Ryan at QB, I wouldn't mind the idea of drafting a WR as much at #4. But we don't.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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And if Matt Ryan was in the draft...I wouldn't be all that opposed to QB at #4....But the problem is that I think there is not a single QB in this draft that is ready to start day 1 and drafting at #4.....don't you think you should get one that can???
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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But the problem is that I think there is not a single QB in this draft that is ready to start day 1 and drafting at #4
I am guessing you don't think Bridgewater is going to make it to pick four?
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Bridgewater is NOT ready to start day 1.....he is the most NFL ready of the 4 picks...BUT that is not the same as READY to start and carry a team. He needs to be in an Aaron Rogers situation...and then he could probably become an Aaron Rogers...But here is the thing....we don't have an Aaron Rogers situation....we don't have a Favre to sit a 1st round pick QB behind. We take a 1st round QB ...he is starting...the money demands it....and if he starts....we will ruin him just as we have ruined all of the others....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Let's put it this way...Luck was deserving of the overall #1 pick. Can anyone honestly tell me that ANY of these top three QB's are anywhere CLOSE to being in his class that justifies taking them just 3 picks after???? Watkins, Clowny, Robinson, Khalil are some of the biggest playmakers in this draft and probably ANY draft...can you say the same for the QB's????
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Bridgewater is NOT ready to start day 1.....he is the most NFL ready of the 4 picks...BUT that is not the same as READY to start and carry a team.
So you are right and everyone else is wrong. That seems likely. . .
He doesn't need to carry the team. He just needs to not suck.
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We take a 1st round QB ...he is starting...the money demands it....and if he starts....we will ruin him just as we have ruined all of the others....
Andrew Luck had a cap hit of $4,019,636 his first year in the league. What money are you talking about?
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When the average salary for a Backup QB s 1.6 mil...yes...the money demands it.... So what are you telling me....we are going to draft a player AT #4!!!! to sit on the bench???? 
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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You can roll your eyes at me all you wish...I'm trying to be respectful of your INCORRECT opinion but keep it in a discussion. Saying you won an argument is far from actually doing so.
The has done what in those years with good wins (which they had before he came) - I'm sorry he elevated them to what ONE playoff win? or did they win 2 in 2012?
They were a top team progressing when they drafted him. They had continuity on O so that all where getting better in the system. If they had a 2nd 3rd round WR like oh Torrey Smith or a Randall Cobb instead would they have the same record and success? Yeah give me the sarcastic thumbs up!
debate me if you wish...but please don't insult me - you are no where as correct as you think you are.
Is Jones a better WR than Smith n Cobb most definitely...as far as the team success is there much of a difference...I don't think so...wait the team with Torrey Smith actually won a SB but let me see ranking of an O is much more important then actual results. They were a good team up and coming without him and a good team with him. The difference is not too great to say See Look How well that turned out for them??? Again What Where and How????
Oh wait might as well
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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When the average salary for a Backup QB s 1.6 mil...yes...the money demands it....
So what are you telling me....we are going to draft a player AT #4!!!! to sit on the bench????
it worked for San Diego (Rivers 4th overall)
it worked for Cincinnati (Palmer 1st overall)
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
When the average salary for a Backup QB s 1.6 mil...yes...the money demands it....
So what are you telling me....we are going to draft a player AT #4!!!! to sit on the bench????
it worked for San Diego (Rivers 4th overall)
it worked for Cincinnati (Palmer 1st overall)
And that was before the rookie wage scale.
Eli Manning didn't start week one, Ben Roethlisberger didn't start week one, Jay Cutler didn't start week one, Joe Flacco would have sit if Troy Smith didn't get sick, Jake Locker didn't start his entire rookie season, Christian Ponder didn't start week one. . .
If Hoyer can play at or a little below the level he did last year then we can easily sit a rookie behind him.
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Oh gee what did he do???? yeah 133 catches over 2100 yrds and 18 touchdowns....no I wouldn't want that.....who would want that???? why can't you admit that Atlanta is OK with their selection???not only just ok but better??? Yes it did not produce results last year...but if you don't get on the field you cannot produce results....does that mean they were ready to commit suicide because you think they should have picked D that year and grabbed Torrey Smith later??? No...I think Atlanta is STILL ecstatic over their selection of Jones....and they would do it again if they were in the same position. Quote:
Saying you won an argument is far from actually doing so.
Heed thine own advise...Last year is PROOF how inept Atlanta's offense could be without Jones in the mix.....and you want to say they aren't a better team for picking him????
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They were a good team up and coming without him and a good team with him. The difference is not too great to say See Look How well that turned out for them??? Again What Where and How????
They were an up and coming team that is for sure ...but on offense they needed someone to take coverage away from Roddy White....if you think Torrey Smith or Randall Cobb would have done that as quickly or as well (I know you didn't state as well)as Jones did...God Bless You...I don't think Atlanta wanted to take that chance...And even given today's stats...they do it again....
They were up and coming without him...they were Super Bowl Contenders with him...The fact that they fell apart last year because he and White could not stay healthy shows how important they are to that team.
Look....if you HONESTLY don't think Atlanta became a better team when they selected Julio Jones...then I don't know what to tell you....The fact of the matter is that Atlanta wasn't going to trade up for Aldon Smith. Not after drafting Weatherspoon in round 1 in 2010.(BTW the next LB chosen from their original pick was Akeem Ayers and then Bruce Carter back to back in the 2nd round)
My simple point is that Atlanta became a better team with Jones...they were up and comers...and once they drafted Jones people discussed them as Super Bowl Contenders and on Offense they certainly are Super Bowl worthy........Jones was a puzzle piece...as would Watkins be for us...the difference??? Watkins would not be our final piece(as Jones appeared to be for Atlanta), and we don't have to give up picks to get him.
We have a current QB that makes quick decisions and gets the ball out FAST...having the option of Watkins just helps him and Gordon and Cameron. And gives us MORE flexibility in sitting and grooming a QB....But if we grab QB....we start a QB that is not ready with a limited set of weapons and we ruin yet another career.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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We disagree. I have no doubt that Bridgewater could start day 1.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Oh gee what did he do???? yeah 133 catches over 2100 yrds and 18 touchdowns....no I wouldn't want that.....who would want that???? That would actually mean something to me if I did Fantasy League but I don't.
I never stated he is not a good WR. I am stating that he is Over Valued not only by you but a lot of people even analyst - heck Dion has elite WR as one of the holy grail people. Exciting yes. Do you need good WRs not saying not to invest...just got to be right time right place right WR to do so. Jones is a good WR but was it a great move by the Falcons...actually some others now are starting to mumble about it (others not on this board but some analysts).
Will we agree...how bout Never...lol We just value the WR in the TEAM aspect totally different. But I still don't see one iota of proof that he made the "FALCONS" better he mad the WR stat better but I don't see him making the team better to that degree. Even in 2012 I think the best run they ever had. memory???
How bout this...Did he make the Falcons more Exciting? I'll give you a YES there...lol
Better Team a little but not that much.
jmho and obviously you got yours.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Legend
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Legend
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And if Matt Ryan was in the draft...I wouldn't be all that opposed to QB at #4....But the problem is that I think there is not a single QB in this draft that is ready to start day 1 and drafting at #4.....don't you think you should get one that can???
I couldn't care less if the QB that we draft starts on day 1. If 3 years from now he's playing at a high level and improving, it will be a good pick. I don't care if you take him at #4 and he doesn't even get his jersey dirty next year. We aren't drafting a QB to win the super bowl next year, we would be drafting a QB to solidify the position for the next 10+ years... and if they think the guy that can do that is there, take him.
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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So a Top 5 WR in the league..
Does not make a team better...
Got it...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Posts: 40,399 |
This is the joy of arguing one guys worth to a team.. rarely, if ever, can you make a good analysis because other things are constantly changing around that person... Quote:
But I still don't see one iota of proof that he made the "FALCONS" better
Since the year Tom Brady took over the Pats, he has averaged 12.25 regular season wins per year... the year Matt Cassell started, they won 11 games... does that PROVE that Tom Brady is worth 1.25 more wins per year than Matt Cassell?
yebat' Putin
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Hall of Famer
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We disagree. I have no doubt that Bridgewater could start day 1.
He certainly could start day one. Would he be successful? Probably not.
Of the 'big 3' QBs, I would only take Bortles (because he's better than the others) and I wouldn't be happy taking him at #4. I would, if I had to, but I wouldn't like it one bit. The others wouldn't get drafted until later and Bridgewater wouldn't get drafted at all. At the point where I would draft him, I'd be looking at other positions to fill out my roster for the best depth available.
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Legend
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Then we disagree too! Bortles is the one I would certainly avoid at #4.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Hall of Famer
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That's great. We'll have to see who gets taken where and then how they perform at the NFL level.
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That's great. We'll have to see who gets taken where and then how they perform at the NFL level.
That's really the only way to find out.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
That's great. We'll have to see who gets taken where and then how they perform at the NFL level.
That's really the only way to find out.
I assumed someone here would know ahead of time...
Seems that way most of the time...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Legend
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Ridiculous.
Ridiculous?
How about you list all the trades in the last 3 or 4 years? They are so common? Teams regularly give up high picks for guys w/Sheard's numbers. Now, name of a few of them.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 Not QB at 4: Later round QB's
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