DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Wage Hikes Minimum Impact

You're right. Minimum wage should be made even higher than they are suggesting. But I'm not an extremist. Just trying to use some rational constructive happy medium. Try it,you'll like it.
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You mean like actually reading the article we are debating about? GREAT idea!

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When Big Brother is giving you money for no reason, than you should be watched like a hawk - once it's misused it should be taken away and you never get it again. This woman can get a job painting houses all day and make more money - but she's too lazy and people like you are willing to just hand them money for no reason whatsoever.

Where in the constitution does it state that the government is responsable for your cable bill, cigarettes, cars, playstations etc.? This is the land of OPPORTUNITY you have the opportunity to have those luxuries IF you work for it. You don't have a right to it.

I'm very rational. Work and you'll get paid. Be lazy and you starve.

Why do you keep bringing up welfare when the topic is about a livable minimum wage? Do you think everybody who makes under 20k are all the same? That people who work for a living should be no better off than a welfare recipiant?

Because that's what the debate is about in case you've gotten sidetracked.

But from what I gather,you feel the way to do that is by cutting welfare and keeping the minimun wage the same? How does that stretch an unfair wage paycheck?

How does that make $5.15 an hour pay your bills? How do you feel people will be willing to work if they can't live on what they make?

And do you seriously think people will sit there and starve Soup? surely you're only fooling yourself. There would be a huge rise in crime both murders and thefts. What,build prisons for another 50 million people and pay to take care of them too?

It's a vicious cycle Soup. If you really feel that a minimum wage where people can live is the worse that can happen,you're sadly mistaken. People can't be treated like dirt when they work for a living. For a society to flourish,each meber who is willing to work,must be able to live. That's common respect and human rights,not communism. Since when did treating others fairly and with decensy become communism?

If you understood how business worked than you'd know that raising minimum wage will ultimately raise the prices on everything there-by negating the raise in the first place. Why do you think cushy union jobs are going overseas? It keeps company profits up. You are mad because minimum wage is only meant for single people - not for people with kids. That's why it shouldn't be raised, she could easily go into a management training program at McDonalds and make over twice what she's currently making. However, she's lazy - and being 23 probably doesn't think working at McDonalds is cool. I know what this conversation is about, she said she's going to quit so she can get a free ride on welfare. Raising minimum wage does nothing but make people lazier. Ever here the saying, give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day - teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime? It's time respect and responsability are restored.

the big benefiters from this is the young highschool/college students who have no prior credentials who just need a job to pay for tuition and other basic expenses/bills. 5.15/h isnt enough for this crowd and im glad to see them get a break. (especially since my fiance is in that crowd (college student)) <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I like the fact of minnum wage going up (PA'S wage is going up next year), it'll help me out when my current pay (above minimum wage) goes up according to the increase.

Matter of lazy mothers and dead beat dads, my parents work at the local county assistance office and they see it all. Their are people that turly need the help but their are many mothers keeps having kids to get more welfare and they won't get a job (I believe in PA you are required to get a job for welfare benefits but you keep them if fired so they go out and fired on purpose. Trust me, I've seen them do this at work). It's interesting when I go down there and see these 300lb mothers come out in nice looking cloths and a very very nice, expensive car, while the kids are in rags.

No,you don't seem to understand that it only applies to about 4% of the population and mainly in the service industries.I mean.nobody in building trades makes less than minimum wage,so it doesn't effect housing costs. Autos? Nope! Nobody in that industry even sniffs minimum wage. You think a manager of a McDonalds who makes 40k will get a big raise because minimum wage went up?

And I know plenty about business. I ran my own business for quite some time. And I was pretty successfull at it I might add. But I made a choice. Owning my own business was all consuming of my time. It left little to no time for my family and I decided to live on less money to devote more time to my family. Either way,I made a good living.

From my understanding,28 states,including Ohio,has already raised the minimum wage close to the new proposal being considered. So basicly,this entire debate is a moot point accept for a minority of states in our country.

And let's look at your idea,which I think is a great one BTW. I think everyone should work hard to better themselves. I promote people getting training,sticking to their jobs and working hard. I've done that all my life and expect no less than that from others. So we're more on the same page here than you think.

But let's say this woman does decide to get into management training. Now I can't speak for McDonalds,but I can talk about something that I do know of first hand. Speedway.

My daughter manages a Speedway. Her husband is a machinist. Did you know that you have to have an associates degree to be a manager of a Speedway? That's right. You need a two year degree to manage a gas station.

Now I'm not saying everyone shouldn't have a college degree,but I don't. Luckily I've taken advantage of the oppertunities I was given and have done much studying on my own that enables me to make a decent living.

But how can a woman be expected to help herself with an education to better herself? Sure,she can get student loans. But what about the two years while she's getting an education? Shouldn't she be able to live while she's bettering herself?

You see,my daughter didn't get her degree straight from high school. I b!tched and b!tched at her about it,but she wouldn't listen to me. She made a mistake by not listenning. Luckily,she had a supportive husband who had a pretty good job to help her so she could further her education. Without that second income of a good job,how could she ever had done this?

See,in this country,even if you rob a bank,once you serve your sentence,you get a second chance.You get another shot at life. The difference in my own childs life,was because she had the option of that second chance. A second chance at an education. One,that had she been divorced,she could have never have pulled off. Maybe she could have,but it would have taken much more time and hardship.

So my own child is proof to me that if given the oppertunity,people can better themselves. They can take advantage of the oppertunities afforded them. But without that oppertunity,you're building mountains for them to climb,rather than an oppertunity.

Without her husbands helping hand and help with the kids,she may be working trying to raise her children on a minimum wage job right now. Instead,she's knocking down 40k+. But you don't get into management of these places with a high school diploma anymore. It's not like it was when we were kids.

I thank God every day that my daughter got her degree and she's working to get a masters in her spare time now. I thank God for that too.But I also know how hard she struggled to do this. And it would have been virtually impossible on her own without the help of her husband.

And it's not so much that I care about those who refuse to help themselves,but I know first hand how hard it is through my daughter,for a single mom to do this on her own. And while I'm not crazy about welfare,I would like to see everyone in our country who "wiull and wants to" better themselves,have the oppertunity to do so. Because in the end,it helps us all.

So once again I must ask you Soup,how is a woman to survive with a couple of kids if her husband left her having no degree on minimum wage? How can she live and feed her family WHILE she's getting her degree,going through a management program etc... if the current minimum wage is too low to pay her minimum bills in the mean time? To make better citizens and a stronger economy,there must be a chance for people to get to the point they can simply exist in the mean time. and $5.15 an hour simply won't do that. Don't they deserve the same second chance that's offered to a bank robber in our society?

That is the part that REALLY bothered me about the issue. No one should get a built in raise determined by the government. I went for 5 years without a raise due to company performance, which ultimately led me to quit and find another job.

1. If you worked 5 years in the same place without getting a raise or finding a new job,you waited at least four years too long to find a new job.

2. Minimum wage has been frozen for nine years,almost ten. And look how hard it was to pass now,even over that length of time. This is simply insurance to provide that the poorest don't keep getting poorer for another nine years.

And I hope you've learned that working for people who aren't good enough at business to turn a profit isn't very smart or you might end up wasting more years of your life.

Nope, so as I stated many times, why doesn't this girl get into the management training program at McDonalds? Minimum wage (once again) is meant for single people. As for autos, already explained that unions are why things are moving overseas and going to robots.

Excellent to hear. If you were publicly traded though, you'd have to answer to shareholders who when minimum wage goes up - you have to make up the profit loss. There's way more than this - but we'll make it easy math. You asked for a $2 an hour wage increase. Let's say there are 100 Target stores. 10 Emplyees each making minimum wage. $20 per hour per store X 40 hours = $800 per store per week. $80,000 per week across the company X 52 weeks. $4,160,000 per year. You just took $4.1 million out of their profits by raising minimum wage. Where will they make that money up? The consumer.


True, but in 2 more years when inflation reaches this minimum wage prices rise - minimum wage is too low - remember that viscious cycle you referred to <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



We most definitely are then. You ain't as bad as I thought <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Not sure how Speedway or McDonalds works - but many companies will pay for your schooling in their training programs. To answer your question, student loans and a community college.


But you admit it's still possible, by going through that hardship they learn responsability and can pass it on to their kids. I see this woman as someone looking for a free ride and now you can say hello to 3 future welfare recipients/criminals because they feel they are owed everything and don't have to earn it. This seems to be the point we completely differ on.



Again where we differ, this woman built the mountains herself, comes back to responsability - she should be responsable for her own actions. Not this country. For every action you take there is a consequence. When you give people ropes to climb there own mountains they never remember or teach others to bring their own rope.
But still possible, by the way - kudos to your daughter and her husband - that is great to hear as it sounds like she has a good husband and it sounds like you raisied a great family - good for you. You obviously worked very hard, now your daughter is getting her masters - you passed on hard work and responsability - something the woman in this article isn't doing.



I disagree to a point - we all make choices, people make choices to have sex - consequence is a kid - their problem not the governements (viscious cycle is back, they see they get what they need from the gov't and exploit it)


Bank robbing is a different scenerio - you'd flip out on me if you knew my stance on crime. Let's just say I believe in extreme punishment.

To answer your question again, work for it - is it rough? Yep, life is real rough especially when you are dumb enough to have 3 kids at 23 and be single. HEr kids will not grow up responsable as she is not responsable. Many families out there can't have kids that are loving and want them and can afford them. This woman should have had hers taken away and given to a family that's in need. She doesn't understand responsability - I shouldn't have to pay for it. I'm trying to set up a nest egg for myself and hopefully a family in the future. My money needs to go towards that - not some woman who has 3 kids and is single.

I didn't look for a few reasons. And I agree I stayed too long. I've since started my own business so I don't have to worry about raises anymore.

1. I was making very good money, and a lot of people in the software industry were out of work. I got too comfortable with my job, and was treated great my first 5 years there (6 promotions and over 50K in raises) and figured once things turned around then the raises would come back. Well, things never turned around and still haven't so I'm glad I left.
2. Lack of confidence to go out on my own. I finally got over that and am very happy with my decision. I make my own rules now, and it is quite nice.

I still do not believe that this will solve anything, as very few adults actually work for minimum wage. But highschool and college kids will be happy.

The company was VERY profitable - just not profitable enough in the eyes of wallstreet. They never lost money and had sales in excess of 600 million per year. To this day they've never lost money in their 20 year existence. I've posted about my disdane for public companies in other threads, and that is the reason why. They cannot share the wealth due to shareholders.

Glad to hear you're doing so well and I share in your views that publicly owned companys are the working mans worst enemy. They seem to never make enough profits to "share" with their workers.

Maybe that's why the stock market looks so good on paper? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Raise the minimum wage rate to $10.00 if you believe that it will really help. What happens next is that the market evens out and finds it's own level. Most businesses will be able to adjust their prices and maintain their margins after a transition period. Some small businesses will have to cut the least adaptable people and retailers will make the adjustments store by store.

Most people stay at the entry level wage only until their job skills increase enough to move along to another position. Those who stay longer are generally handicapped physically or emotionally...or addicted somehow.

We need those folks on the bottom to stay and work...."Somebody has to make the french fries,no???

Sure somebody has to make the french fries.

I guess they can sleep under the fryer.
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Just gonna toss this out there:

Here's how they can do it... Lots & Lots of Hard Work. Doing what it takes to get where you want to be.

I had a roommate about 10 years ago.. a girl who was working at Hooters waitressing while attending nursing school. She attended school 40 hours a week and worked an additional 30-45 hours per week waitressing. She paid her way through school completely unassisted (minus the standard student loans/grants). This girl busted her ass for *years* on end so that she could get to what she wanted, and that was one helluva nice job with the Cleveland Clinic as a Nurse. Even after graduating from school and getting the job though, that wasn't good enough for her... she continued in school and went for her Masters Degree.... Again, paid in FULL out of her own pocket... and moved into a management role. This is a girl who moved out on her own at the age of 16.

No two ways about it.... Either you're willing to do the work to get what you want or you're not.

Well ... I know that our prices are going up to compensate for the increased labor costs. The minimum wage types will basically "float" at the new wage/pricing levels. I still have no idea how our company is going to handle those making in excess of the new minimum. We have some people making $8-9/hour. I don't expect that we'll see anyone going up to $10-11/hour .. so the good, long term employees probably lose as well.

So .... salaried people, people who have experience doing a good job, and long term employees will probably experience a net loss, but thankfully those who are entry level will get a new wage that will force prices up for everyone. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Without a car most people can't get to work, get to the store, get to the Doctors, get to the hospital. In this day and age a car is needed almost as much as a house, or apartment.


<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Well then the county I live in is denying people their basic rights, because their are no subways, or busses that exist around here. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Once again <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> If you think being on unemployment makes you "not a man" you got problems bud <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

What price is minimum wage keeping down? The price of a happy meal?
Its amazing to me how some of you expect every citizen to become a successful upscale person no matter their circumstances in life, or they are worthless lazy bums, yet you want to protect MCdonalds and Walmart from having to pay an extra dollar or 2 an hour.

Since you obviously skipped over my post I wrote to Pit, here's a business lesson for you.

You asked for a $2 an hour wage increase. Let's say there are 100 Target stores. 10 Emplyees each making minimum wage. $20 per hour per store X 40 hours = $800 per store per week. $80,000 per week across the company X 52 weeks. $4,160,000 per year. You just took $4.1 million out of their profits by raising minimum wage. Where will they make that money up? The consumer.

Yea, I skipped it for a reason. Because its the same BS doom and gloom that was thrown around when Reagan raised the minimum wage. It was false then and it was false now. Very few prices are affected by the minimum wage. For the sole reason that all manufacturing already pays more than minimum wage. In some states like Jersey. McDs and BK etc already pay 8-9 dollars an hour to start. Its only in the midwest where minimum wage is the starting salary. On both coasts where there is more money and more competition for workers even the lowend companies pay more than minimum to attract workers. Its only a small percentage of employers who will be affected. Hell I am a small business, I am a sole proprietor and have one partner that I work with. We hire part time help at different times throughout the year. I pay about 2 or 3 times the minimum wage. Depending on the worker. So I dont have much sympathy for a multibillion dollar company having to pay out an extra dollar or 2. Retail stores will find their money elsewhere. Most of them could deduct a few million from their CEOs salary to cover the increase while still leaving him as a multi millionaire.

In regards to "on both coasts" ($10,712 is full time min wage at $5.15 hour)

Salary in Cleveland OH: $10,712
Comparable salary in San Diego CA: $14,927.26

If you move from Cleveland OH to San Diego CA...

Groceries will cost: 4.876% more
Housing will cost: 119.41% more
Utilities will cost: 19.039% less
Transportation will cost: 16.617% more
Healthcare will cost: 19.028% more


Salary in Cleveland OH: $10,712
Comparable salary in Boston MA: $14,283.01

If you move from Cleveland OH to Boston MA...

Groceries will cost: 2.849% more
Housing will cost: 80.38% more
Utilities will cost: 21.916% more
Transportation will cost: 8.18% more
Healthcare will cost: 27.869% more

Cost of living is a lot different. Once again you skipped over what the cost really is to Target by doing that - people answer to shareholders a lot differently now.

What your defending is slave labor. 200 dollars a week is not making a living. And thats even assuming you can get full time. I remember working as a teen for minimum wage companies, and how they juggled the schedules so no one could get full time and qualify for health care. Personally I have no problem cutting into the profits of a mega corp in order to set a somewhat more acceptable standard of living for the lowest among us. History has already shown that it works, when the poor have more money it instantly goes into the economy. When the corporate entities have it the money goes into offshore accounts never to be seen by America again.

Continually pointing out that X brand store is going to lose 4 million of their 100 billion in profits is something I already know. And its something I can live with and accept as a necessary step to raise the standard of living of the poorest among us. Those poor are here to stay either way, they arent going anywhere. Raising their standard of living improves the country for all of us.

For the zillionth time in this thread - minimum wage jobs are not meant for adults taking care of people - they are meant for high school and college kids. How smart would it be to have high school kids pulling in $20k a year while living at home? That would be the equivalent of a single person on his own making $35k. It's a dangerous thing. Teach the kids to work for better - not automatticly get it just because.

Then you're a bit of a fool... Unemployment Compensation, aside from being one of the properly structured civic benefits, is something you pay into in a way. You have to earn the right to collect it, so if you need it, collect it. It makes you no less of a man, though that feeling is good as it is what will drive you to improve your station.

What you don't get soup is that while they may not be MENT for adults many, many adults still work for min. wage. Some by choice, some not by choice.


It would be great. They could save up money for a down payment on their own house. Buy their own furnature, and cars instead of starting out with nothing, and going into debt <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

you left out "getting out of the house and out on their own sooner rather than later" <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Thats exactly who minimum wage is for. No one has ever moved to protect the working wage of students. Are you kidding me. Minimum wage is meant to protect the working poor from being exploited as slave labor. There has been no increase for a decade. Its well past time.



The reallity is that many working families depend on minimum wage.

Characteristics of Minimum-Wage Workers
Table 1 summarizes the characteristics of workers that would benefit from the proposed increase in the minimum wage. In total, about 7.7 million workers would receive a pay increase. Most of these beneficiaries are women (61.7 percent, compared to 38.3 percent who are men.
About 70 percent are adults age 20 or older; over half are 25 or older. Black and Hispanic workers would benefit disproportionately from the increase, since black and Hispanic workers are overrepresented among minimum-wage workers, but white workers account for the large majority (62.4 percent) of the projected beneficiaries. Workers with less than a high-school degree make up the largest share of minimum-wage workers (36.9 percent), followed closely
workers with a high-school degree (34.6 percent). Even workers with some college education, however, account for over one-fifth (22.8 percent) of all minimum-wage workers.

http://www.cepr.net/publications/labor_market_2005_12.pdf

The CEO of Walmart doesnt seem to agree with you either

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott said he's urging Congress to consider raising the minimum wage so that Wal-Mart customers don't have to struggle paycheck to paycheck.

Scott told Wal-Mart (Research) directors and executives in a speech Monday that he believes "it is time for Congress to take a look at the minimum wage and other legislation that can help working families."

"The U.S. minimum wage of $5.15 an hour has not been raised in nearly a decade and we believe it is out of date with the times," Scott said. "We can see first-hand at Wal-Mart how many of our customers are struggling to get by. Our customers simply don't have the money to buy basic necessities between pay checks."

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/25/news/fortune500/walmart_wage/

Thats because my wife told both of our kids they could stay till their 40 <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

I hope you held her head under the covers & farted

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Naaa I love them both, and enjoy having them around <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Because he has no power at all to raise Walmarts starting hourly wage <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Politicians must love you.

If you read the article you would notice he said "customers" cant afford the basics of life. And he also mentioned that Wal mart already voluntarily pays more than teh 5.15 and hour.


http://www.walmartfacts.com/articles/2185.aspx

The national average wage at Wal-Mart is approximately $9.68 per hour.*

or they'd find ways to get more out of their workers.. but are we saying that the min wage shouldn't be adjusted for inflation? The wages and inflation are not connected as much as people would like you to think.. yes you can expect to see a few prices to rise, but how far has inflation rose since the last min wage hike? there is more to inflation than just how much the workers are being paid.

but I welcome this hike <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but then again I get paid min wage.. though i do get commision as well <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> though I am sure those will get cut accordingly <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

but for your amusement.. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



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Since I ran major retail stores from 1971-2001 I faced this problem more than just once.

MW increases are simply a temporary fix to assist the lowest earners in America. Generally the wage scale slides upward affecting not only the MW workers but all earners making between the original minimum wage amount and the new minimum wage amount. Those in between get a bump up in wages determined by the company that they work for...some companies slide more earners up than the aforementioned group and some unions have built in triggers which raises their wages if the MW is increased.
The companies must adjust by
1. Making schedule changes to increase productivity of all associates
2. Cutting the hours of more higher paid staff...but not to effect overall productivity. This may mean in the retail business any 9-5 staff may have to begin to cover nights and weekends.
3. Eliminating the least productive workers who do not have the ability to increase their productivity sufficiently. This is the logical way to go and we often did this in my business each couple of years to keep only the better associates.

We did not have any noticable PRICE INCREASES directly after this MW increase. Over a 3 month period you can slowly get your margins up to where they need to be.

As a Libertarian this MW program bothers me as the Federal Gov't has no Constitutional right to interfere with the wage paid to their own associates,but...that boat sailed decades ago and we have the MW to stay.

The MW increases can hurt Mom and Pop ventures greatly but they do adjust...unfortunately a few can't make it because of the MW increase. These are the ones who were on their way out anyway...which is the way of the Market. No big loss to the economy but a big loss to the little guy owner.

As far as who the MW worker is..............
It can be anybody but it generally consists of new entry level workers who..
1. Are working for the first time.
2. Elderly workers reentering the market for fun or actual need.
3. Displaced workers from other industries struggling for another opportunity.
4. Immigrants [legal or not] learning the ways of America.
5. Single parents struggling to make it after divorce or death of spouse or unwed mothers in a really bad spot.

Why we begrudge the increase I don't know because it comes back to the business in revenue fairly soon.

The other people who fell into the MW earner category I purposely left out because they are different and distinct from the groups above.
These are the addicted,emotionally or physically handicapped or lazy who just want some cash to go day to day. We all know these people and this is what they will always be unfortunately.
As much as we dislike the lazy how do you not help the handicapped?

How would you propose keeping companies from exploiting the downtrodden by paying near-slave wage labor?

"...How would you propose keeping companies from exploiting the downtrodden by paying near-slave wage labor? "

I wouldn't propose anything since it isn't the government's responsibility to interfere with private enterprise. If you read my post thoroughly I explained that I have no problem at all starting entry level workers at as much as $10.00 and hour. Business will absorb it in the 3-6 month range after making their adjustments to payroll through cuts and productivity enhancements and we will all be about back where we started in a year or two.

If you are attempting to provoke me into taking the side of big business versus the poor workers of the world forget it...big business has the free market which corrects all frailties of liberal economic voodoo spells...B.B. needs no one's help.

If you want me to take the side of the hourly employees I will be happy to after all "someone has to make the fries".

I wasn't attempting anything...just questioning an opinion I disagree with. I agree with a lot of Libertarian tenets...but the gov't absolutely has to weigh in on this. I mean, based on your theory of the hands off gov't in regards to MW or labor...well, you'd have nothing but boatloads of immigrants working for nada.



I did read it thoroughly, and agreed with a lot of it...

...but again, you don't think it's a conflict of opinion to say that the government should'nt be involved in wages, yet you have no problem with an across the board $10/hour for entry level workers...which would never, ever happen without gov't intervention.