DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Tribe Time !

Love spring training and getting a chance to see some of the young guys from the FARM ! Start of with a record of 2/1 ...

My wife and I are driving to Florida next week - I sure do miss stopping for a few days in Winter Haven for Indians' Spring Training. I noticed that in the last couple days, they drew only 2800-3000 fans at games with the Reds - in a facility they share with them, right? So, ostensibly they should be getting fans from both teams to attend, except I don't think nearly as many people head west to Arizona for Spring Training as used to go south to Florida. Seems to me that Friday afternoon games in Winter Haven used to draw over 5000. I guess in Spring Training, the facility is more important to the team than the attendance. Still, its kind of sad to see teams leaving the Grapefruit League for the desert.

"I didn't know they still had a team"

Article probably not worthy of its own thread, so I'll shoe horn it here. I don't necessarily disagree with it.


Indians Should Trade Cabrea to Mets:

web page

So, you think Cleveland Indians shortstop prospect Francisco Lindor might be ready for the show, do you? Paul Swydan makes a great case for why the Tribe should turn to one of the game's top 10 prospects, not just to reap defensive benefits but to follow a time-honored tradition of fast-tracking a top-shelf shortstop prospect.

The question is, who needs one year of Asdrubal Cabrera? He's a free agent after 2014, so if you get him, you get him because you need a shortstop now, because you have big expectations for your team in 2014 and maybe because you think you can sign him next winter.

Who fits all of those criteria? I think just one team, the "we'll win 90 now" New York Mets.

What can the Mets give up to get him? Stuff the Indians need, and dealing from depth: First base/LF type Lucas Duda, third-base prospect Wilmer Flores and right-hander Michael Fulmer.

The Mets' gains are pretty obvious, especially if you accept projections of Cabrera rebounding in 2014, whether Baseball Prospectus' .734 OPS, Dan Szymborski's ZiPS (.736 OPS, 17 home runs) or the Bill James Handbook's projecting a .746 OPS. That's a 100-point jump from what's generally expected from incumbent Ruben Tejada at the plate. Like Cabrera (minus-16 in BIS' plus-minus last year), Tejada's defense wasn't an asset last year (rating minus-9 in almost a third of a season); unlike Cabrera, there's no past track record to suggest that he can do better. And why Duda and not Ike Davis? Well, if you're drinking the Kool-Aid that says 90 wins is possible for this team now, I have to believe Davis' .954 OPS in the second half last year is a big part of the reason. And trading for Cabrera means you're drinking pretty deeply from that pitcher of Kool-Aid.

Why does this work for the Indians? Because it gives them help now and upside. Starting with the least valuable player first, Duda would give Cleveland a lefty bat to mix in at first, DH and the outfield, another moving part with platoon punch to fit within Terry Francona's lineup-card shifts. Duda's career numbers against right-handers (.255/.356/.456) will come in handy, especially if David Murphy's awful 2013 season (.656 OPS) was his career's death rattle, leaving the Tribe without a good answer for lefty at-bats at first or in right.

Moving to the long shot with upside, Fulmer is the injury-prone arm in the Mets' stack of talented arms who might reach a middle slot in a big league rotation. Between shoulder and knee problems last year, he didn't log much time on the mound after making his full-season debut in low Class A in 2012, and his bulk combined with the knee injury and the general fragility suggests he might wind up as "just" a bullpen asset. But with a plus fastball/slider combo that he throws with command, and heat that can hit the mid-90s in a bullpen role, he's an upside guy who wouldn't be on the 40-man roster and who could move up fast from high Class A in the next few years if he's healthy.

Which brings us to the top-shelf prospect, which is something you have to give up to get something of value. The question isn't the big league value the Indians would get in the deal. By starting with Duda to help out at first base, DH and the outfield corners, they're getting three years of adequacy. And they already have Mike Aviles around as an insurance policy at short if Lindor stalls, gets hurt or even just needs that initial month in the minors. But what moves the dial for the Tribe is a prospect, especially since trading Cabrera means giving up their own shot at compensation picks. They need a quality prospect, and the Mets, thanks to the sixth-best farm system in baseball according to ESPN Insider's Keith Law, have something to offer.

The easy thing would be to ask for a first-round-quality talent, either a high-OBP tweener like Brandon Nimmo or a ready-now option for third base like Flores. But I don't see the Mets giving up Nimmo, while Flores is blocked by David Wright and his new deal. And frankly, third base is where the Indians have a need, now and into the immediate future. They're already forced to ask themselves how good Lonnie Chisenhall is ultimately going to be, either as a lineup regular (since a .300 OBP or a .700 OPS aren't automatic for him) or as an everyday defender at third base. Chisenhall's shortcomings have already inspired this spring's experiment with putting starting catcher Carlos Santana at third base, a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul the Tribe should forgo so that they can keep Santana behind the plate or at first and DH.

So they get Flores in the Cabrera trade. He's just 22, but is about as ready as he's ever going to be after an .888 OPS in Triple-A last year and .855 at Double-A the year before that. He has a quick bat and good power to all fields, and he comes with .500 slugging potential. Like Chisenhall, he's already projected to produce around a .700 OPS in the majors, but his youth suggests higher eventual upside. Assuming the Indians aren't permanently scarred from the Andy Marte experience -- the last time they traded for another organization's top touted hot-corner prospect -- Flores is a perfect fit.

Finally, remember, the Mets wouldn't be trading for Cabrera to have and to hold forever after -- they're just renting him for a year. But once you have him, you also have a season to make a sales pitch on why he should stick around. If you're the Mets, wouldn't you want to be able to exploit that window, before free agency? Because the other thing to consider is that if the Mets don't trade for Cabrera now, they may well be in the exact same situation in nine months: Making him a multiyear pitch paying eight figures per year, but while competing against every other team on the market. Why not take your chance now, gain that brief, exclusive negotiating window in the offseason?

There are also side benefits come draft day. Let's say getting Cabrera is already something the Mets are thinking about for next winter. By getting Cabrera now they don't just protect their own future first-round pick that they might lose by signing him in December (if they wind up outside the 10 protected picks), they potentially gain one if they instead lose him to free agency. As one former governor of Illinois put it, that's a frickin' valuable thing.

Thanks for the input ; interesting article .. I'm not a big AC fan to begin with

No one should trade for Asdrubal Cabrera as long as Stephen Drew is still available.

I would be hard-pressed to think the Mets would give us all 3 guys, but ecstatic if we could pull it off.

Duda 28yo under team control until 2018 w/ 2 near-full seasons in MLB already and a 114OPS+. Yes, please (not to mention it spells the end to Giambi's sub .200 BA on our team).

Flores, 22yo who got a cup of coffee for the Mets last year and struggled. Mets are unsure what position he projects to (3B, 2B, 1B in minors) but expect him to have a +bat when he gets to MLB fulltime.

Fulmer, 21yo 2011 1st round pick who has struggled some with control but has been fairly good in his limited low-level play.

That seems like a lot to give up for a player who is going to be a free agent, isn't all that good, has cheaper replacements readily available, and isn't going to put a team over the top.

Pipe dream.

yes, I agree.

Trading for Asdrubal is probably more cost efficient than Stephen Drew and giving up a first round pick. Further, lets compare them:

Drew, last year at age 30: 253/333/443/777 13 HR 67 RBI
Asdrubal, last year (in a down year) at age 27: 242/299/402/701 14 HR 64 RBI

Statistically, these two players were about as comparable defensively as any two in baseball. Range factors, fielding percentage were nearly identical.

Additionally, last year Fenway played as a 2% better hitters park than Progressive Field. I'm not a huge Asdrubal fan, but he has significant value. He's got similar numbers to Drew and is three years younger. Honestly though, I'm not certain that either are franchise shortstops and neither are deserving of that qualifying offer. But, that's where they are now.

Trading three players for Cabrera is much worse than giving up one first round pick for Drew.

You're only looking at the prospect cost. For some ungodly reason, Stephen Drew is looking for a long-term deal at a high rate. Asdrubal will look for that, but I don't think he'll command near the financial commitment as Stephen Drew.

Right. But Asdrubal would still have to get paid.

I guess I am assuming that Drew will eventually sign a contract that is similar to the one Nelson Cruz signed with the Orioles.

jc

Justin Masterson makes multiyear proposal to Cleveland Indians

GOODYEAR, Ariz. – Right-hander Justin Masterson and the Indians are still trying to make this thing work.

Masterson and his agent, Randy Rowley, have made a three- to four-year proposal to the Indians believed to be in the $40 million to $60 million range. They are waiting to hear back from the team. Both sides have set a deadline of March 31, opening day, but if progress is being made, negotiations could continue. Under the Dolan ownership group, the Indians have signed players as late as the All-Star break.

As Jon Heyman of CBSports.com reported, Masterson’s proposal was made on Sunday.

The six-year, $105 million deal that the Reds signed Homer Bailey to on Feb. 19 was thought to end any chance of Masterson signing a multiyear deal. Masterson and Bailey are comparable pitchers, but the Indians have made it clear they won’t come close to matching that deal.

Masterson, however, enjoys pitching in Cleveland and is excited that the Indians could be turning into a contender after making the AL wild-card game last season. He likes manager Terry Francona and has taken to mentoring young starters such as Corey Kluber and Zach McAllister.

He has family in Beavercreek, Ohio and lives in Indianapolis.

This could be comparable to Jon Lester’s situation in Boston. Like Masterson, Lester can be a free agent after this season. Lester likes Boston and has said repeatedly that he wants to remain a Red Sox and is willing to sign an extension.

Recently when asked about the Masterson negotiations, GM Chris Antonetti said, “We want Justin here. I think we’ve been very consistent with that. We have a great appreciation for what Justin brings to our team, our clubhouse and our community.”

When asked if signing Masterson to a multiyear deal was realistic, Antonetti just smiled, but had no further comment.

Masterson was eligible for arbitration this off-season, but settled with the Indians on a one-year deal worth $9,726,500, one day before Bailey signed his big deal.

Recently, Masterson hinted that progress was being made with the Indians. After a Cactus League start, he told reporters, “I figure somehow, someway I’ll end up still being here for a few more years.”

What this comes down to is whether both sides can find a solution somewhere between the one-year deal Masterson just signed and the six-year deal that Bailey signed. Is there a hometown discount involved in these negotiations, perhaps? Masterson, however, should have a good idea about what his value would be on the open market.

He’s the Indians’ player rep and he’s on the executive council of the players association. If he pitches well this season, he could be one of the most attractive free agent starters on the market along with Max Scherzer, James Shields and Lester.

The Indians would almost certainly make him a qualifying offer, which could hurt his market value as it did with outfielder Nelson Cruz, who signed a one-year $8 million deal wit Baltimore. Free agents Ervin Santana, Kendrys Morales and Stephen Drew, saddled with their own qualifying offers and draft pick compensation, are still on the market.

But plenty of free agents who put up good numbers last year such as Shin-Soo Choo and Jacob Ellsbury signed big deals despite costing their new teams draft picks because of their qualifying offers.

Masterson went 14-10 with a 3.45 ERA in 32 games, including 29 starts, last season. He set a career high in victories and strikeouts despite missing much of September with a strained oblique muscle.

He will undoubtedly be the opening day starter for the third straight year and is being counted on heavily to lead a rotation that will have to prove that it is fully recovered from the free-agent loses of Ubaldo Jimenez and Scott Kazmir.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf...t_river_default

Speaking as an outside observer, with no financial stake in the Indians ...... that sounds like a solid deal for them.

Absolutely. Dolan should sign that deal no problem. When you talk about Homer Bailey getting $105 million, I thought for sure Justin would want a similar deal. Ubaldo got that for 1 good half of baseball.

Justin wants similar money to Homer Bailey, just less years. It mitigates the risk for the team, but it also opens up Justin to potentially 1 more big contract if he continues to perform well.

Quote:

---

three- to four-year proposal to the Indians believed to be in the $40 million to $60 million range

---

So we could be talking anywhere between $13.3 - $20 / year for 3 years..... to $10 - $15 / year for 4 years? Quite some range.

Who si going to trade for a guy who hit .242 last season? I don't think we can just trade Cabrera when we have no idea what Lindor can do yet, but I think we need to find out very soon.

It would be stupid for masterson to pass up 40 to 60 million in guaranteed money if he could get it. Why chase future money when you already have it? 3 yrs at 40 to 45, or 4 yrs at 60 million are great deals for the club. I just see too much risk in short term deals for the player. take the money while you can.

If anyone is paying attention; the Indians are having a good Spring so far .. I like hearing about the young talent on the team .

I was impressed by his willingness to pick up the slack in the bullpen at the end of last year after his injury.

Smart move by Masterson and his agent to put the ball squarely into Dolan's corner regarding a possible extension. Unlike others who have left, he seems willing to take less than market value (Homer Bailey contract) from the team that gave him his chance. I hope the Indians step up. If they must, they could free up some $$ by trading Asdrubal, and going with Aviles and Lindor at SS. They are also trying to tie up Kipnis, which along with Brantley, Bourn, Swisher, Raburn, would be positive steps at establishing a core of legit major leaguers and also a show of good faith to cynical Indians' fans.

Bad news for Indians' fans ...

Justin Masterson talks break off

March 21, 2014
ESPN.com news services

Contract negotiations between the Cleveland Indians and Justin Masterson reportedly broke off Thursday after the sides remained far apart on financial terms of a potential extension, according to multiple media outlets.

Masterson, projected to be one of the top starting pitchers in free agency next offseason, is seeking a multiyear deal worth approximately $17 million annually, according to reports. The right-hander's agent proposed multiple offers to the Indians more than two weeks ago.

Justin Masterson was a first-time All-Star in 2013 and went 14-10 with a 3.45 ERA and a career-high 195 strikeouts.
The Indians made a counter-offer to agent Randy Rowley on Thursday, but the team's offer reportedly was worth at least $3 million less annually than Masterson's proposal.

Rowley indicated to MLB.com that Masterson, who turns 29 on Saturday, will test the open market following the 2014 season.

"We tried to be flexible in years and sensitive to the market," Rowley told MLB.com. "Justin obviously has a passion for playing for [manager Terry Francona], loves his teammates and we would've loved to have gotten something done.

"We tried to do everything we could to make that happen, and we weren't able to come to an agreement."

A first-time All-Star in 2013, Masterson went 14-10 with a 3.45 ERA and a career-high 195 strikeouts last season. The right-hander is 53-63 with a 4.03 ERA in parts of six seasons with the Indians and Boston Red Sox.

But Masterson has emerged as a reliable starter over the last three seasons, going 37-35 with a 3.86 ERA while averaging 205 innings pitched per year over that stretch.

The Indians and Masterson avoided salary arbitration last month by agreeing to a $9.7 contract for this season. The sides are not expected to resume contract talks at any point this season, according to reports.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10645272/justin-masterson-cleveland-indians-break-contract-talks

Saw that report last night. I may be the only person that understood and accepted the CC and Lee trades, but this one ticks me off. He was trying to give them a good, fair deal. And in today's pitching money, it was a freaking bargin. And the Indians lowballed him and then quit. What sucks the most, Justin wanted to stay.

Sucks.

Goodbye Justin. It's a real shame, when the organization fails to keep any good player around. Justin isn't an ace, but he's a very good number 2, that gives you 200+ innings most of the time. I think he would've took a 4 yr deal at 16 million per. It's not like he was asking for a 100 million deal. Will be interesting to see if they will trade him at the deadline.

Why do I have this feeling Masterson will have a monster year....and 3 to 4 more afterwards for the Tigers?

Its pretty deflating for this to unfold just before the opener. Just in case you were feeling optimistic, along comes the facts of life in MLB saying "not so fast there, buddy".

Yeah, I don;t get it. We have an ace who isn't really asking to be paid like an ace ...... an ace, who wants to be here, and who puts his wallet where his mouth is ..... and they shut him out.

I could see if we had 2 other probable aces behind him who were going to need to be signed, but we don't have that right now. 3 years would seem to be the perfect type of timeframe ...... not locking the team into an extremely long contract, but keeping Masterson around in his prime.

I don't get it.

I can hear arguments on both sides of this, but this is why people don't attend these games anymore. Say what you want, but when you get rid of good pitching, you are turning your fans away.

The one argument I chuckle at is the thought that well if Masterson sucks, we're stuck with that contract. So? You mean money they probably otherwise wouldn't have spent?

I commended them for spending last year when they were freed up from Hafner and Sizemore's deals, but those are moves that are back page newspaper material for big time teams...

If I had to choose between signing a good pitcher and having money to spend on guys like Swisher and Bourne, give me the pitcher.

But yeah I just don't understand this whole well if we spend it on X guy, we won't be able to spend next year or beyond. Like they are all of a sudden going to just start going bonkers with the checkbook.

Justin Masterson isn't a top 10 pitcher, so I understand the Indians approach, but if you want good pitching, which is the category that he falls into, you have to overpay, welcome to professional sports.

That's why attendance is bad, it has nothing to do with what team's current record is (which was a point of discussion every other night "well why aren't they showing up, they're in the playoff hunt), they have already done the damage. I really think fans don't care to go and spend their money with that ownership. It's years of shortchanging fans, insulting their intelligence, and best of all, blaming them for their shortcomings.

they need to stop crying about Fans in ( not ) the seats !

very surprised to see ALL of the arguments on one side here. I get that side, don't get me wrong and I would like to keep Masterson.

but, he's still asking for Homer Bailey $$$. not the years, but the same $$ per year. It's $17mil/year. That's a huge chunk of change. and, let's not act like Masterson is a true ace. he has been up and down his whole career and we don't know where he's going to truly go as he hits his 30s in the post-PED era.

also, the payroll is rising from the Swisher/Bourn signings + the young players we are going to want to extend that play every day (Kipnis, Santana, etc.).

again, I get the angst, but figured there would be more on the other side of the argument. we are not a big market team. Masterson is asking to take ~20% of our payroll for himself. and, this deal he is proposing is likely the top-end of what he will get on the QO-open-market next offseason unless he has a monster year (which he could).

Maybe he's buying for him and his kids/family... because it is a very family-like thing to do.

Tickets for a family of six, plus parking (can easily hit $20), plus food and drinks (just one hot dog and one soft drink per person) at the game... you can very, very, very easily hit the $150 mark. If you can get the ticket for ONLY $10, and the food comes to ONLY $10 per person... you're at $120 already without accounting for parking.

I've never paid more than $5 for parking. Looks like the cheapest seat for 2014 is $10, you are allowed to bring in outside drinks and snacks. By my count for a family of four that is $45, family of six $65, very realistic. I guess some will add in fuel and the cost of those snacks, i just add those into the cost of life.

Last years attendance was pathetic and embarrassing

3 years isn't a lot of risk in my opinion, especially a guy in his prime at 28. Bailey's deal is bad because of the years. If reports are true, and they offered him a 2 year deal for 25 million, that truly is an all time low for this organization.

If Wayne Garland was dead he would be rolling over in his grave.