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that depends on your definition of what a poison pill can be. a team could give Mack a huge 1st year cap number (wouldn't affect us much) or they could put a huge guaranteed cap number in year4 (this is my biggest fear --- it could cripple our future cap with all the guys that we need to extend).
I don't get it. Wouldn't back loading just give the Browns 3 years to plan the DQ escape route? Why would Mack accept a back loaded Wimpy contract? I'll gladly pay you 4 years from now for good center play today?
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that depends on your definition of what a poison pill can be. a team could give Mack a huge 1st year cap number (wouldn't affect us much) or they could put a huge guaranteed cap number in year4 (this is my biggest fear --- it could cripple our future cap with all the guys that we need to extend).
Keep in mind too that the cap is projected to go up ~10M each year. Have a look at OverTheCap.com to see the Browns cap situation for the next 3 years. They shouldn't be shy about spending on these guys (Mack,Haden, etc).
If Haslam finally wants to practice the "consistency" he has preached, you keep your core talent.
yes, I have played with it. I think we are in very good shape for the next couple of years, but if our guys continue to progress (and we hope that they do), then we will be much tighter against it in about 3 years despite it going up. that is why it could give our FO pause if someone puts in a clause like the one I described.
now, given out cap situation and the years we would have to plan, we could just decide to match it anyway and figure a way around it later.
#gmstrong
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j/c
According to that website overthecap.com, here is where they stand:
Cleveland Browns 2014 Salary #s
Est. Salary Cap Space: $47,351,350
Offensive Spend: 34 Players $53,348,190
Defensive Spend: 30 Players $51,132,204
Specials Spend: 3 Players $1,561,666
Cleveland Browns 2015 Salary #s
Offensive Spend: 25 Players $31,509,367
Defensive Spend: 20 Players $30,234,740
Specials Spend: 2 Players $1,331,668
Cleveland Browns 2016 Salary #s
Offensive Spend: 4 Players $13,987,848
Defensive Spend 6 Players: $22,181,744
Specials Spend: 1 Players $835,000
Year --Total Liabilities----- Salary Cap------- Cap Room
2014-- $110,186,218------ $157,537,568---- $47,351,350
2015 --$63,075,775------- $140,000,000---- $76,924,225
2016 --$37,004,592------- $150,000,000---- $112,995,408
Last edited by DIEHARD; 03/05/14 11:29 AM.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Preface: I'm no expert )football, cap, salary, or anything related to this stuff)
As has been said already, the answer to both your questions is "yes".
Franchise tag means that another team would have to give up draft picks in order to sign him (in addition to whatever contract they agree on). So a team has to give up $$$ AND draft picks in order to get Mack if he were franchised, vs just $$$ with the transition tag.
So yes, there is an added risk of a team swooping in and throwing money at Mack. That risk is mostly mitigated, in this situation, because Mack is a center, and teams probably won't put themselves in cap hell for a center, and we have plenty of cap room in case a team does want to be a little aggressive.
I brought up Gordon and Haden earlier to highlight these two points. If we have the same situation, except with our #1 corner or #1 WR, we treat this totally differently. Teams would have no qualms about opening up the vault for either of these guys, so we would need a little extra protection in order to keep teams away, and that means franchise tag. If Gordon keeps doing what he's doing, I bet there are some teams that would try for him, even if he was franchised.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Indeed, but there is a caveat. Mack could get offers for 5-6 mil....even 8-9 mil and decide not to take them and simply play out this season at 10 mil, and next year we are back in the same position.
While that is a possibility, from a business standpoint, I don't believe it would be a smart move.
If in fact he sustains an injury or he doesn't make the pro bowl next year, his value certainly wouldn't increase and could be reduced. While he certainly has been a healthy player, in the NFL you're only one snap away from an injury.
I believe the smart play for him is that if he gets any substantial offer, signing it would be his best insurance policy. I could see your scenario being more likely if he only got a 5-6 mil. offer though.
And while we would be in the same situation next year, if refused to sign a reasonable offer, we would save 1.5 mil over using the franchise tag this year and see he doesn't want to be here because he refused to sign an offer.
That at least gives you some time to prepare for that.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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that depends on your definition of what a poison pill can be. a team could give Mack a huge 1st year cap number (wouldn't affect us much) or they could put a huge guaranteed cap number in year4 (this is my biggest fear --- it could cripple our future cap with all the guys that we need to extend).
I don't get it. Wouldn't back loading just give the Browns 3 years to plan the DQ escape route? Why would Mack accept a back loaded Wimpy contract? I'll gladly pay you 4 years from now for good center play today?
I agree, and not only that....the owners have agreed on no poison pills. I am sure they know every type of pill hasn't been invented yet, so I am sure there is a way to review things to keep the new ones out.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Then you have to think that not all teams are in the cap position to do a heavy front loaded contract for a C.
It will be interesting to see what he's offered on the open market. I'm guessing 7.5 to 8 mil. on a four year deal. No idea what the guaranteed money will be. But if anyone can match a front loaded contract, it's us.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Indeed, but there is a caveat. Mack could get offers for 5-6 mil....even 8-9 mil and decide not to take them and simply play out this season at 10 mil, and next year we are back in the same position.
I really don't see why he wouldn't wait until next year. even with the best contract he would only have 15 to 20 mil guaranteed. why not take the 10 and next year get the 15 to 20 guaranteed?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Indeed, but there is a caveat. Mack could get offers for 5-6 mil....even 8-9 mil and decide not to take them and simply play out this season at 10 mil, and next year we are back in the same position.
I really don't see why he wouldn't wait until next year. even with the best contract he would only have 15 to 20 mil guaranteed. why not take the 10 and next year get the 15 to 20 guaranteed?
What if he has a career ending injury during that ONE year? OR, what if he tears an ACL... The question will be, can he ever be as effective again? it will raise questions and it could hurt his value.
that's why!
Last edited by Damanshot; 03/05/14 11:51 AM.
#GMSTRONG
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No doubt. The guaranteed money is going to be the key. If it is high,he accepts the terms and then we can match or not. If it isn't all that high...say 12-15 mil, he might decide the 10 mil this year is worth the risk and all the guarantee he needs to live out life on the gravy train.
I really doubt his first year salary with bonus will amount to less than 10 mil under a new contract. Remember, he gets the bonus money when he signs. Teams are the ones who get to spread it out over the length of the contract. But, I threw this out there because it is a somewhat realistic possibility.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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No doubt. The guaranteed money is going to be the key. If it is high,he accepts the terms and then we can match or not. If it isn't all that high...say 12-15 mil, he might decide the 10 mil this year is worth the risk and all the guarantee he needs to live out life on the gravy train.
I really doubt his first year salary with bonus will amount to less than 10 mil under a new contract. Remember, he gets the bonus money when he signs. Teams are the ones who get to spread it out over the length of the contract. But, I threw this out there because it is a somewhat realistic possibility.
Would it surprise you to find that he's offered say 18 mill up front and more guranateed down the road?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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No doubt. The guaranteed money is going to be the key. If it is high,he accepts the terms and then we can match or not. If it isn't all that high...say 12-15 mil, he might decide the 10 mil this year is worth the risk and all the guarantee he needs to live out life on the gravy train.
I really doubt his first year salary with bonus will amount to less than 10 mil under a new contract. Remember, he gets the bonus money when he signs. Teams are the ones who get to spread it out over the length of the contract. But, I threw this out there because it is a somewhat realistic possibility.
Would it surprise you to find that he's offered say 18 mill up front and more guranateed down the road?
surprise no. shock yes.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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ooober...just remember - in the past I can remember a lot of CBs hitting the FA market cause the team just didn't wish to get into the crazy $$$ being spent on them. Curious can you remember a Franchise tag going on a CB?
WR...who was it...Jerry Jones was the only one to dip into the Franchise tag for a WR...Galloway? One of the dumbest moves he made.
A lot of WRs hit the FA market or many are put up for trade the year before.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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ooober...just remember - in the past I can remember a lot of CBs hitting the FA market cause the team just didn't wish to get into the crazy $$$ being spent on them.
Cough, cough....Eric Wright....cough, cough.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Can someone tell me if this is correct?
So if some team offers Mack a contract at $12 million and the Browns decide to match it, then Mack must sign with the Browns?
That is the only way the transition tag makes any sense to me, otherwise I don't get the point.
Frankly I don't see the advantage of not just using the franchise tag. If Mack really really wants to find his market value and would be outraged at getting franchised then I understand it. But otherwise it holds no tangible benefit to the franchise tag outside of saving $1.6 million.
Yes.. if we match the offer presented by another team, we retain him for the length of the new contract..
I'm not sure what's hard to understand. It's simply a way to let him test the market, arrive at what would seem to be a fair market value. At which time, if the Browns feel it's worth it, they match we retain him.
In our CAP situatin, 1.6mill is chump change. The goal is to retain Mack. This is a fair way for both the team and the player to accomplish that task.
Indeed, but there is a caveat. Mack could get offers for 5-6 mil....even 8-9 mil and decide not to take them and simply play out this season at 10 mil, and next year we are back in the same position.
Sorry, I missed this before.
What are the odds of teams low balling him like that?
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I was thinking more on the lines of Talib.
The OSU guy that went west for big bucks.
The kid from the Raiders who was signed by Eagles...hardly any of them paid off big for the teams that invested. Carr to Cowboys wasn't bad for them.
EW??? gosh I forgot about him already...man once they leave us unless they become something big I forget about most of them!
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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j/c
I have taken a long look at this years draft class in terms of the C position. While this draft class is strong and deep, the C position isn't that strong.
Not sure how that may impact what Mack gets offered, but it may very well play a role.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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j/c
I have taken a long look at this years draft class in terms of the C position. While this draft class is strong and deep, the C position isn't that strong.
Not sure how that may impact what Mack gets offered, but it may very well play a role.
If the law of supply and demand mean anything in the NFL, then yeah, it will impact his offer.
Someone would have to offer him the sun and the moon to get us to not match. So who has both the CAP Space, need and no other big holes to fill?
Find that answer and maybe you'll have an idea of who would go for him.
The average salary of Centers in the NFL in 2014 is about 2.9 mill
The top 5 average 7.7 mill
Mack being the highest paid at 10 mill
Pull Mack out of the mix and the next 5 average 6.9 mill
Found this info here: http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/average/center/
Not sure how accurate that site is.
This much we know, his rookie contract was for 14.9 over 5 years not sure how that's broken down, but it's an average of 2.98 million.
No matter how we slice this, he's in for a HUGE pay increase.
An average of 8-9 million a year isn't out of the question. Some/Most of it guaranteed and some in a hefty bonus.. Honestly, I don't see a 10 mill a year offer for him. That's LT money.
Am I missing something?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I have a contact at the NFL League offices. I've emailed him and asked him to provde the rules pertaining to the Transition Tag.
He's a good guy that has provided me with good info in the past. Hopefully, he'll do that again. If I get it, I'll share.
When you are talk to Roger, tell him I said to move the kickoffs back to where they belong. 
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No I don't really think you're missing anything. My best guesstimate, taking everything into consideration was between 7.5 and 8 million. Not sure how that would be structured but I wouldn't be shocked if it's just slightly higher. When you factor in supply and demand at C and the raise in the salary cap. I still think 8 million is pushing it. And while we have him tendered at a little over 10 million, that doesn't mean that's really what he will make this year. At least hopefully. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I have a contact at the NFL League offices. I've emailed him and asked him to provde the rules pertaining to the Transition Tag.
He's a good guy that has provided me with good info in the past. Hopefully, he'll do that again. If I get it, I'll share.
When you are talk to Roger, tell him I said to move the kickoffs back to where they belong.
I'm be sure to let RG know you want it moved...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No I don't really think you're missing anything.
My best guesstimate, taking everything into consideration was between 7.5 and 8 million. Not sure how that would be structured but I wouldn't be shocked if it's just slightly higher.
When you factor in supply and demand at C and the raise in the salary cap. I still think 8 million is pushing it. And while we have him tendered at a little over 10 million, that doesn't mean that's really what he will make this year.
At least hopefully.
Your numbers are as good any guess out there. I think it will be 10% to 20% higher than the 2014 average of 7.7 mill.. that could take it to 8.45 to 9.24 mill
That's just a guess and probably a bad one at that LOL
I'm not sure that Mack is the Best Center in the league, but honestly, I'd hate to have to live on the difference. He's close by all accounts I've read.
Top money,, Maybe fair, maybe not. But someone may offer it and if we want him, it's clear we'll have to shell out the green.
Think about this, we go out and get our franchise QB this year (assumption) and we put him behind a Rookie or less than great FA we pick up at Center. How smart is that? Especially if you are looking at replacing one or maybe two guards. That could get ugly in a heartbeat.
In either case, the final control is ours. that's why I think this was a great move in this situation. Not sure if I'd feel the same with a different guy/position. each case has to be viewed as unique.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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If they want mack they will have to make him the highest paid center in the nfl. He is the best available center in a system where the newest of the FA will always get paid more and more and then more. I'd have no problem with them paying him that much since a great center like mack is worth every penny IMHO.
If I am the front office and they cant resign haden this year then they need to front load macks contract this year and make it cheaper the following years. take that cap hit now while we have the room to make easier to resign our other players later.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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If they want mack they will have to make him the highest paid center in the nfl. He is the best available center in a system where the newest of the FA will always get paid more and more and then more. I'd have no problem with them paying him that much since a great center like mack is worth every penny IMHO.
If I am the front office and they cant resign haden this year then they need to front load macks contract this year and make it cheaper the following years. take that cap hit now while we have the room to make easier to resign our other players later.
Sign Mack, pay da man. Franchise Haden next year if you can't sign him this year.
GO BROWNS!
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If they want mack they will have to make him the highest paid center in the nfl. He is the best available center in a system where the newest of the FA will always get paid more and more and then more. I'd have no problem with them paying him that much since a great center like mack is worth every penny IMHO.
If I am the front office and they cant resign haden this year then they need to front load macks contract this year and make it cheaper the following years. take that cap hit now while we have the room to make easier to resign our other players later.
I think that's almost a foregone conclusion. He'll be the highest paid center in the league until the next best guy comes along...
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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.do you really think it was a great move like so many others are saying?
That depends entirely on how committed we are to matching an offer. I assume he will get an offer with this tag. I can't imagine all 31 teams ignoring him.
If we are committed to matching just about anything, I'm okay with it.
If we aren't, I don't like it. I'd rather lock him in for 2014 w/the franchise tag and have another year of exclusive negotiations.
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.do you really think it was a great move like so many others are saying?
That depends entirely on how committed we are to matching an offer. I assume he will get an offer with this tag. I can't imagine all 31 teams ignoring him.
If we are committed to matching just about anything, I'm okay with it.
If we aren't, I don't like it. I'd rather lock him in for 2014 w/the franchise tag and have another year of exclusive negotiations.
I don't think anyone will offer Mack 10 million. Browns will be on the hook for one year. If Mack has another pro bowl year, it'll be hard for Browns to negotiate a long term deal without talking 10 million/year. It is obviously good for Mack. If the Browns do decide to make Mack the highest paid center, it is good for the position. It is good Browns don't have to find a reliable center right away too.
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Does anyone know how to cook groundhog? One thing for sure, he won't be seeing his shadow any time soon!
low, slow, and start it while alive. 
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If no one offers him what he wants, then he has the choice to make, lower his demands, or take the 10 mil and try next year...
If they weren't going to give you it this year, I doubt theyll give it to him next year either...
I feel either someone will give him an offer and we'll mach it, or he'll come back to us and we will work out a deal...
Regardless, I assume he will be on the team this year..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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j/c
I just don't think he wants to be here. from what I read we started talking last year and that's a year of talking and its not done. I think he will go with the rest of the FAs the browns had the last 5 year and get stuck with the tag or go somewhere else for less money.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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.do you really think it was a great move like so many others are saying?
That depends entirely on how committed we are to matching an offer. I assume he will get an offer with this tag. I can't imagine all 31 teams ignoring him.
If we are committed to matching just about anything, I'm okay with it.
If we aren't, I don't like it. I'd rather lock him in for 2014 w/the franchise tag and have another year of exclusive negotiations.
I don't think anyone will offer Mack 10 million. Browns will be on the hook for one year. If Mack has another pro bowl year, it'll be hard for Browns to negotiate a long term deal without talking 10 million/year. It is obviously good for Mack. If the Browns do decide to make Mack the highest paid center, it is good for the position. It is good Browns don't have to find a reliable center right away too.
I can see a team offering, give or take .5m, 8m per for 4-5 years and the Browns matching.
Or am I not getting how this works?
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that depends on your definition of what a poison pill can be. a team could give Mack a huge 1st year cap number (wouldn't affect us much) or they could put a huge guaranteed cap number in year4 (this is my biggest fear --- it could cripple our future cap with all the guys that we need to extend).
I don't get it. Wouldn't back loading just give the Browns 3 years to plan the DQ escape route? Why would Mack accept a back loaded Wimpy contract? I'll gladly pay you 4 years from now for good center play today?
Mack is to smart to take a backend loaded contract. However is is smart enough to take a front loaded contract and finish out that contract with the Browns. He has to much pride in himself and his work to dog it in the later years of the contract and IMO that's what we are going to see him end up with.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I can see a team offering, give or take .5m, 8m per for 4-5 years and the Browns matching.
Or am I not getting how this works?
The way I understand it, and I misunderstood it the other day. Mack is guaranteed 10 million from Cleveland unless another team makes an offer. Cleveland has seven days to match it. You assume someone will offer more than 10 million!
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Legend
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No one is going to offer a center more than 10 Million...
Maybe 10 mil in his 4th year of the contract, but year one is going to be around 7-9..
Most players would rather take 7-8 mil per year over four years, than 10 mil for 1...
Last edited by ThatGuy; 03/05/14 09:33 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
No one is going to offer a center more than 10 Million...
Maybe 10 mil in his 4th year of the contract, but year one is going to be around 7-9..
Most players would rather take 7-8 mil per year over four years, than 10 mil for 1...
Unless I misunderstood the way the rules read Browns will pay Mack 10 million this season.
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Legend
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Legend
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If Mack does not accept an offer from another team, and doesn't work out a deal with Cleveland, then yes, he will get a 1 year deal from Cle for 10 mil..
I'm saying no one wants that, no one likes to be tagged, because everyone wants the security of a multi year deal with garentees..
Which leads me to believe he'll take less than 10 mil per year to get a multi year deal...
Because no one really wants to pay a center 10 mil...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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j/c
I have taken a long look at this years draft class in terms of the C position. While this draft class is strong and deep, the C position isn't that strong.
Not sure how that may impact what Mack gets offered, but it may very well play a role.
There a couple of good centers, but I think what teams will look at is if these guys can play more than one position.
This could get dicethe Browns could have looked at a center themselves but chose to make this move.Let see what he does.
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.do you really think it was a great move like so many others are saying?
That depends entirely on how committed we are to matching an offer. I assume he will get an offer with this tag. I can't imagine all 31 teams ignoring him.
If we are committed to matching just about anything, I'm okay with it.
If we aren't, I don't like it. I'd rather lock him in for 2014 w/the franchise tag and have another year of exclusive negotiations.
I don't think anyone will offer Mack 10 million. Browns will be on the hook for one year. If Mack has another pro bowl year, it'll be hard for Browns to negotiate a long term deal without talking 10 million/year. It is obviously good for Mack. If the Browns do decide to make Mack the highest paid center, it is good for the position. It is good Browns don't have to find a reliable center right away too.
I can see a team offering, give or take .5m, 8m per for 4-5 years and the Browns matching.
Or am I not getting how this works?
No, you understand it fine I think. the numbers may be off. But that's a guess anyway. the average salary for the position of the top 5 for 2014 is slated to be 7.7 million. I think the offer will be north of that. Not sure how it will be structured, but overall, thats the kinda number I see.
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Damanshot
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we'll probably know by the draft whats happening with Mack. Apparently he fits in well with this offense. When the HC, OC and OL coaches go out to visit you that has to make you feel good about the team. Why is he in CA now instead of Cleveland area? Its freaking freezing outside!
Just hope somebody makes him a good solid offer and we match the contract and its done.
If I'm a team that needs a center I do it...worst case scenario he signs and we match and they got to continue their search. I expect offers to come to him right after the opening of FA. So maybe we got him locked up by the end of March!
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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we'll probably know by the draft whats happening with Mack. Apparently he fits in well with this offense. When the HC, OC and OL coaches go out to visit you that has to make you feel good about the team. Why is he in CA now instead of Cleveland area? Its freaking freezing outside!
Just hope somebody makes him a good solid offer and we match the contract and its done.
If I'm a team that needs a center I do it...worst case scenario he signs and we match and they got to continue their search. I expect offers to come to him right after the opening of FA. So maybe we got him locked up by the end of March!
jmho
I thought there was a time limit on when the Browns had to act on the Matching.
By that I mean, FA starts next week. I suspect that Mack will receive offers right out of the gate. Then I think (not sure) that the Browns have 5 days to match or decline.
If that's the case, I think we'll know what's what with Mack within 2 weeks of the start of FA.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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