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J/C
I see this as a great move by the FO to keep a good player. They are willing to give him 10 million a year, so I would think he understands that they value him. Why let a good player walk? Good FOs keep their players any way they can. Farmer knew nobody was going to pay a center top OL pay, so he made it possible to keep him.
If Mack never signs the tag, then that proves that as smart as he is, it wasn't about the money. He's looking to get paid, and who can blame him. If he gets no offers, I would bet that he signs and plays full go this year.
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I'm confused by something.
How in the hell can anyone compare Greco to Mack and further more, how can anyone say they'll get a guy as good as Mack in the draft in the 3rd of 4th round. I've now heard that several times.
If the latter were true (the part about the 3rd or 4th round), why would anyone ever pay Mack the big bucks to get him. Why would any ever pay a Center that kinda money ever. Why would there ever be a Center making 5 or 6 or 7 million a year?
Let me say this so it's out of the way, yes, you can get one that's pretty good in any round or off the UDFA list. It's just not guaranteed like some seem to think.
We have actually been luck around here since 2007. We've had Fraley and Mack. But we shouldn't take that for granted.
If the Browns really feel as some folks do, (and I suspect they do not) then why even bother with the tag.. Just let him go or better yet, franchise him with a 1st round tag and trade him.
Guess I will start by answering this.
What I was saying that Mack WAS worth $5-$$7M a yr, just not the $10+M I think he agent is wanting. As I have previously started, I believe Mack is above average, but not in the elite category to warrant a $10M plus a yr long term contract.
2nd I think we have a more than capable backup at C in Greco, if Mack does decide to sit the year out, and we can get a backup to Greco/future starter in the 3rd round.
Now no one is saying Mack is a bad C. I think it comes down to how much you value the Centre position and are willing to pay compared to other positions.
Now maybe we are all just arguing over semantics and around the edges 
First thing you gotta do is take the money out of the deal.. You don't know and neither do I, what someone is worth. Things are changing faster than any of us can keep up with. It's a fluid situation. What you knew yesterday, is not true today.. that's just how it is.
Greco? Have you ever seen him play center? I haven't. if you haven't then you can't say that either.
How can you say any of that with a straight face.. How in the hell can anyone even think that Mack is a bad center. (you mentioned you weren't saying he's a bad center)
He may well be the best or at the very least top five. (nobody has been able to name 4 better than him thus far).
Here's the deal,, if you can guarantee me that we can get someone better or as good or close to as good, fine, let him go..
But you can't.. and you can't explain to me how you feel Greco has a chance in hell of being close to Mack. if the Browns felt that way, why would they even bother to tag him? What would be the value in it..
End of discussion.
Last edited by Damanshot; 03/18/14 08:00 PM.
#GMSTRONG
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First thing you gotta do is take the money out of the deal.
Obviously.
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I guess some people forget the "Hank Fraley" that we had to pull. Do not want a repeat of that. Mack will be here because this is where he knows he is wanted, and we will pay the 10 mill for 365 days of work. After that, there is a long term deal or a franchise tag in his future.
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Annual franchising of Mack is financial suicide. It's certain to be over 12 million next year an will only increase from there. This is the time to resolve this issue. As I stated if I'm doing the negotiating I'm letting his camp know that we want to wrap up a long term deal before the draft. After that, there's little or no chance of a multi-year contract because other arrangements will be made. End of story.
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I think the only way Mack will want to stay with some real movement forward and a good relationship with the coaches.
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I'm not inclined to "court" Alex. He has to make a business decision. He sees no teams are falling over each other to get at him. He knows what the tender will pay him. It needs to be clearly understood by his camp hat the team will not be handcuffed during the draft while he plays cute with the options available to him.
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I think the only way Mack will want to stay with some real movement forward and a good relationship with the coaches.
And/or if we win.
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That's what I meant by moving forward :P
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Mack will likely sign the tender.
You draft a guy in the mid rounds that can play both G and C.
You go through this year, if Mack eventually wants to stay he stays, if not then you tag and trade him.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Mack will likely sign the tender.
You draft a guy in the mid rounds that can play both G and C.
You go through this year, if Mack eventually wants to stay he stays, if not then you tag and trade him.
He is going to sign something....a offer sheet that we don't match, a contract that we match, or the tender offer.
His only other option is to retire.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Annual franchising of Mack is financial suicide. It's certain to be over 12 million next year an will only increase from there. This is the time to resolve this issue. As I stated if I'm doing the negotiating I'm letting his camp know that we want to wrap up a long term deal before the draft. After that, there's little or no chance of a multi-year contract because other arrangements will be made. End of story.
Unless we have Mack signed to a multi-year deal by the draft, it is imperative that we draft someone as the heir apparent. Preferably someone who can play OG guard this year with Mack under the transitionn tag, then he takes over at C next year,
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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I think the only way Mack will want to stay with some real movement forward and a good relationship with the coaches.
And/or if we win.
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That's what I meant by moving forward :P
Ok, correct me if I'm misinterpreting either of you. Wanting evidence of winning implies going into next season before reaching some resolution with Mack. This allows Mack to exert more leverage over the team's roster decisions. That's unacceptable to me. He has options now, exercise those options or the team must do what is necessary to protect itself.
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Annual franchising of Mack is financial suicide. It's certain to be over 12 million next year an will only increase from there. This is the time to resolve this issue. As I stated if I'm doing the negotiating I'm letting his camp know that we want to wrap up a long term deal before the draft. After that, there's little or no chance of a multi-year contract because other arrangements will be made. End of story.
I disagree. I think the best chance we have of getting a long-term deal is to extend our 2015 key free agents. If Mack's camp sees that we could tag him again next offseason, they might just bite the bullet and sign the longer deal.
To do so, it likely means that we are bleeding this process out until July (which I think is what is going to happen regardless).
#gmstrong
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Don't get me wrong Mack is pretty good - he has learned a lot. But he is not this Great irreplaceable player you are making him out to be. A "TEAM" can survive and do well losing a player that isn't the QB.
My point with Greco is that Football Intelligent is probably the most important factor of a Center...Greco has that whether you recognize he made line calls for some games or not. Fact is Greco is very football intelligent. You probably lose a little quickness but Greco has good feet and can get to the 2nd level. Compare Greco to Mack...why not you act like its an impossibility. Why do the best Centers get taken in the LATE first and most in the 2nd rounds??? If it was a rare talent thing - It would be top 50 pick like OTs.
Why would anyone pay a WR that kind of money...Why cause some people have needs and are willing to pay for it. But most teams will look to replace a Center rather than pay him the big bucks. This is a different year as Everyone seems to have money and possibly with the Rookie bracket salary will have many teams with Cap room to pay a big contract to fill a HOLE if that hole is Center they will want to sign one. When cap is tight he might be the first they look to restructure or release?
We want him here to keep continuity its a UNIT that is doing well and should get better we can always upgrade here n there. But if you notice there are not big offers going on - sure we have the transition tag still if it was that important somebody would give it a shot. There is no compensation.
Nothing is guaranteed. I'm just telling you this fact: SKILL SET, is not the rarest for the OL unit. that is why the Picking order has always been OTs, OGs and then C. Look around and see that is not me setting the trend its the NFL.
We've gone through the learning period and Mack has hit his stride. We want him here, I want him here. But if we lose him its not a big hit as in other positions.
Who was it Pouncey went down on the Steelers - the guy who they picked up from no where did a decent job? Or am I mistaken??? As good as Pouncey no, but to make a great UNIT there are latitudes of greatness that you can get by and have the chemistry in the UNIT.
Greco better than Mack...I don't think so - but we can still build a good team with him there even temporarily until a young kid can progress and develop.
JMHO Center is not the "OH NO" position when you lose them.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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I think we agree. I was just saying that if Mack is going to be convinced to stay long term, after sign a one year contract, would be if we become a winning team.
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Don't get me wrong Mack is pretty good - he has learned a lot. But he is not this Great irreplaceable player you are making him out to be.
I think he's not irreplaceable.. But please, name 4 current starting Centers that are better than him.
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Some of you seem to understand and some don't. We play in a division that excels in using a 3-4 defense with big nasty probowl type NT's. Not just any center can block those guys. Because mack can handle all of them and I mean ALL of them he is an elite Center ans possibly the best in the league. he deserves to be the highest paid center IMHO.
Greco is OKAY for a spot role but he is NO replacement for Mack by a long shot.
Eotab(I think was you don't be mad if it wasn't) you mentioned shaun o'hara and jeff faine as guy that were prob bowlers elsewhere but not here. That's because they were zone blockers who don't handle big mean nasty 3-4 NT's very well. They look good until you put them power vs power.
Mack is POWER. He never gets dominated even against the meanest, nastiest NT in the league. For our division we need him. Gotta have him. Pay Da Man!!
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Why does everybody think our division is particularly hard-nosed and tough? There is virtually no data that supports this. In fact, the defensive lines in our division were particularly poor at producing pressure on the QB last year, compared to other divisions.
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 03/19/14 12:41 PM.
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Do you all think Mack wanted the Raiders to make an offer so he could play at home in SoCal?
GO BROWNS!
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Eotab(I think was you don't be mad if it wasn't) you mentioned shaun o'hara and jeff faine as guy that were prob bowlers elsewhere but not here. That's because they were zone blockers who don't handle big mean nasty 3-4 NT's very well. They look good until you put them power vs power.
Aren't we switching to a zone blocking scheme though?
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Do you all think Mack wanted the Raiders to make an offer so he could play at home in SoCal?
Just a guess of course, but that would make sense for three reasons. 1. it's home and 2. They have the CAP space to make it more difficult for the Browns to match and 3. They have a reputation of making wild unexplainable moves, but that was when Al Davis was still around. Not sure they still have that wacko instinct anymore LOL
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Eotab(I think was you don't be mad if it wasn't) you mentioned shaun o'hara and jeff faine as guy that were prob bowlers elsewhere but not here. That's because they were zone blockers who don't handle big mean nasty 3-4 NT's very well. They look good until you put them power vs power.
Aren't we switching to a zone blocking scheme though?
I think we are.
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not important to me or my argument...I don't know the nfl personnel like I know the Browns. Unger and Ramirez played in the SB one a high pick the other a Mid round pick. Its not important to me who is grade where.
there are a lot of internet savy guys here that know of sites that rank every position...check that out? Never played the game but I think Madden put numbers on the players. Where does he stand in that numbering?
If that really means something to you...go ahead knock your self out. If having the top 5 Centers in the NFL means a championship is there then there will be more teams clamoring on getting the top 5.
look every position is important. You cannot have a complete bum at any of them cause NFL teams will exploit them. You need to have guys play the position.
What I do know about OL is the skill set to play the different positions. Mentally Center is high on the list but physically it is not. Which mean you got more to choose from and develop. The odds of getting the mental attributes up to par is maybe easier than physical.
Take Ohara for instance. As usual we were unwise and played him at RG when the reason I remember was he had to make 3 starts at Center and did well  so we played him at RG  Then he goes to the Giants but he's smart and he becomes a Pro-Bowl Center. His skill set was not great. This is what I know.
I don't know 4 Centers in the NFL that are better than him...if it was important to me I would know...if its important to you...than tell me who or who isn't? I'm no Django...I don't study outside of the Browns Kingdom like he does. I just don't have the time.
What I do know about football I have shared with you. I don't care if you choose to not believe me or not. That is your decision. But I know my OL. I've built a few, I've trained a few, I have befriended a few. My last game I went to were with comp tickets from a Brown OLman. Actually I'm getting tired of coaching OL I wish to do OC or DC now but I'm good at it.
I think we drafted a lot of OC over the years WHY? I don't know its not like its the holy grail of OL. Fowler (3rd) Faine (1st) and Mack (1st) - I think it was with later picks (the two first rounders) and usually its to get the #1 guy at a position and Center would be one to have that opportunity. Good teams might draft them at the end of the first round cause not of importance but because its late round n they see the top Center in the draft still on the board. Why not rather than the 5th OT...
jmho let me know how you do on that ranking thing.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Yeah, I can't name 4 that are better than him either 
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Yeah we are, we may not run it 24-7 but Kyle eluded, during his introductory conference in talking about the pistol - is it gives you the threat of the zone read. He even talked about the kind of player/linemen you want in the zone blocking scheme... I cannot recall enough to quote him any but I do recall him talking about it...
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J/C&P ..... (copying and pasting) I have to admit that I am shocked that he hasn't even had a visit anywhere. That is really surprising for me. Alex Mack rumors: Cleveland Browns C getting no interest in 2014 NFL free agency | Audibles - SI.com http://nfl.si.com/2014/03/18/alex-mack-rumors-2014-nfl-free-agency/We are a week in to the NFL free agency period, and one of the top interior linemen available on the open market has yet to generate any real interest from around the league. Free agent center Alex Mack, a 2013 Pro Bowler, was hit with a one-year, $10 million-plus transition tender from the Cleveland Browns, which may be scaring away some teams. The tag gives the Browns the right to match any offer made to Mack, but they receive no compensation if he leaves for another team. According to Pro Football Talk, Mack has yet to receive any offers and he has not taken any visits. With the big money spending in the free agency period now over, Mack would be wise to get out his pen and sign the one-year deal that the Browns currently have on the table. It may not be the long-term comfort that Mack was hoping for, but it is a large sum of money that the team could pull at any moment. If the Browns decide to revoke the transition tender, then Mack could watch his pay check for 2014 take a significant hit. MORE: 2014 NFL free agent tracker | NFL mock draft database: SI’s experts weigh in Players are never fans of playing under one-year deals because of the risk of injury and other factors that could hurt their market value, but Mack is at the top of his game, and he can prove he is among the best centers in the game this upcoming season before cashing in on a bigger pay day in 2015.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I can't name 4 that are better than him either Never mind I shouldn't have tried to explain things to you.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Let me see if I get this... I think Tab is saying that Center is just not that important of a position relative to other positions and given that, we probably shouldn't be tying up lots of our money long-term paying for one. Not that hard finding a competent player to fill the Center position if Mack walks.
Is that about right?
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Let me see if I get this... I think Tab is saying that Center is just not that important of a position relative to other positions and given that, we probably shouldn't be tying up lots of our money long-term paying for one. Not that hard finding a competent player to fill the Center position if Mack walks.
Is that about right?
I believe that's pretty much what he's saying.
I just wonder what that says about our FO and coaching staffs decision to transition tag him then?
I mean if it's not that big of a deal, why would they tag him at over 10 mil.?
I believe the big deal is his great ability to make the calls. Sure, you can have anybody make those calls. It doesn't mean they're really good at it. To me, that transition tag speaks volumes.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Let me see if I get this... I think Tab is saying that Center is just not that important of a position relative to other positions and given that, we probably shouldn't be tying up lots of our money long-term paying for one. Not that hard finding a competent player to fill the Center position if Mack walks.
Is that about right?
Here is an interesting bit on NFL Network.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap...O-line-position
Personally, I think that having a smart, mobile Center is very important in today's NFL, and that is Mack to a T. He is a technician, and actually reminds me of what Joe Thomas would look like if he played Center. The Center is also even more important in an age where teams try to take the most direct route to the QB, often flipping a DE inside to overload the middle to try and get to the QB. This type of overload rush in the middle becomes even more prevalent as offenses go to 3 step drops with quick hit plays. The fastest route to the QB is right up the gut, and teams know it. It seems to me that a strong and smart Center, who can see these schemes, understand them, and adjust blocking accordingly is vital to a team's, and the QB's, long term success.
I truly hope that we manage to work out a long term deal with Mack ..... especially with us almost certainly starting a rookie/young QB at some point in the near future.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think all EO is trying to say is, it's not the end of the world if we lose Mack. I agree. Sure Mack is good and all that, but if he doesn't want to be here than bring on one that does.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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Do you all think Mack wanted the Raiders to make an offer so he could play at home in SoCal?
An offer to the city of Los Angeles to move the team out of Oakland? 
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I can't name 4 that are better than him either
Never mind I shouldn't have tried to explain things to you.
No, you didn't need to explain it to me.., My remark was a nice way of saying I don't agree with you about Greco and about the value of Mack.
Clearly you didn't catch that Back at ya....LOL
#GMSTRONG
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Annual franchising of Mack is financial suicide. It's certain to be over 12 million next year an will only increase from there. This is the time to resolve this issue. As I stated if I'm doing the negotiating I'm letting his camp know that we want to wrap up a long term deal before the draft. After that, there's little or no chance of a multi-year contract because other arrangements will be made. End of story.
I disagree. I think the best chance we have of getting a long-term deal is to extend our 2015 key free agents. If Mack's camp sees that we could tag him again next offseason, they might just bite the bullet and sign the longer deal.
To do so, it likely means that we are bleeding this process out until July (which I think is what is going to happen regardless).
Bleeding this negotiation out past the opportunity for the team to bring in an alternative only hands over more leverage to Mack. What advantage does that create for the team?
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Annual franchising of Mack is financial suicide. It's certain to be over 12 million next year an will only increase from there. This is the time to resolve this issue. As I stated if I'm doing the negotiating I'm letting his camp know that we want to wrap up a long term deal before the draft. After that, there's little or no chance of a multi-year contract because other arrangements will be made. End of story.
I disagree. I think the best chance we have of getting a long-term deal is to extend our 2015 key free agents. If Mack's camp sees that we could tag him again next offseason, they might just bite the bullet and sign the longer deal.
To do so, it likely means that we are bleeding this process out until July (which I think is what is going to happen regardless).
Bleeding this negotiation out past the opportunity for the team to bring in an alternative only hands over more leverage to Mack. What advantage does that create for the team?
The only alternative is Greco. He is as good/better than anything on the market. We are not drafting a center.
At worst, Mack is playing 2014 for the Browns as can be seen from the complete lack of interest in Alex. If we want him signed long-term, then we need to strike the fear in him that this process will happen again next year. Only one way to do that.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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I think all EO is trying to say is, it's not the end of the world if we lose Mack. I agree. Sure Mack is good and all that, but if he doesn't want to be here than bring on one that does.
It's not the end of the world but you can see it from there. We're either going to have to get a guy that MIGHT work out, or pay up and get a guy that is a proven guy.
We're going to have a QB that has only started 5 or so games in his life or maybe even a Rookie. I think it's going to be pretty important (maybe more so) to be solid in the spot.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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All Pro
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All Pro
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Bleeding this negotiation out past the opportunity for the team to bring in an alternative only hands over more leverage to Mack. What advantage does that create for the team?
If we intend to match anyhow, it doesn't hurt us unless some team goes crazy on their offer.
If he doesn't get any offers, I think we have a ton of leverage in 2014 to get a deal done. We'd have exclusive negotiating rights for a full year and he'd have to be disappointed about the lack of interest.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2008
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I think we agree. I was just saying that if Mack is going to be convinced to stay long term, after sign a one year contract, would be if we become a winning team.
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. I'm still incline to draft another player to protect the team from a change of heart. The only prudent thing to do is to have a contingency so their is no unecessary holes come 2015
Last edited by guard dawg; 03/19/14 03:45 PM.
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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I can't name 4 that are better than him either
Never mind I shouldn't have tried to explain things to you.
If you can name 4 centers without looking it up you need a hobby lol.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack Transition Tag in FA
Part 2
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