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Just a thought on Greco, I think that he played better at RG than LG. Though admittedly, I am no oline guru nor aficionado.
Can any of you guys offer insight? Should we be targeting a LG rather than a RG?
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I'm not sure I was addressing you in my post.
It can be confusing. Usually people put a "j/c" ( just clicking ) to avoid such confusion. Otherwise it appears you are responding to whoever you clicked on.
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Fan base, PR, signing players we drafted, I think they are important. Especially on losing teams trying to build themselves out of the rut.
I do believe that signing players you drafted is important to building a winning team. But I believe the "winning team" part of the equation is more important than PR or the fan base. At least here I think it is.
If you look at how well the Browns have sold out after years of losing, to me that points to the evidence that all the fans really want is a winner.
It's pretty hard to build a winner if you are putting things like PR into your decisions.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If I were drafting, I believe Eotab made a very strong point in drafting an OT that projects to be a G.
The OT's usually have a better skill set from an athletic standpoint but just lack a little size to play OT in the NFL.
In a zone blocking scheme, that is a major help.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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we would be in need of two G's. I'm sure we consider Pinkston as the replacement for Lava.
But I did mention in probably a post on this thread that I am happy Mack will be with us for at least a season so that we have continuity with the OL. We lost 2, one starter and one depth. We signed nobody in FA even for depth potential. Which tells me we are going to draft 2-3 probably mid to late round OL from this draft. We'll see who develops into what - but our starters will be JoeT, Greco, Mack, Pinkston and Schwartz.
If we draft an OL in our 4-35 slots He will be expected to start. Don't be surprised to see Pinkston grow this year - I liked how he came back in very good shape and lost some weight and looked very much the leaner veteran. I can see Greco being the odd man out and he would continue to play some Center reps as well as OG n even swingman OT
Again its just thoughts and speculation. What I do expect is whoever we bring in will fight for a starting position. Now what do we do if we bring in a mid round kid to develop at Center and/or OG he starts to stud out. I think with Mack signing the Tag we can contact a West Coast team and trade him of course them working out a long term deal before the trade is consummated.
Again just thinking out loud...not debating just covering the possibilities.
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who is going to pay a center 3 1/2 mil more than the best centers get? that's for a 1 year deal.
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I also believe they see Pinkston as a replacement for Lavao. Actually in the zone scheme, it may have worked out that way anyway. I don't see another "Pinkston" on the entire roster though. Our depth would be very porous. I'm not really sold on me liking your scenario about waiting later in the draft, but it makes us much sense in what path they may take as any. I like the early draft pick with Greco being the odd man out much better. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Or both of those options. If depth is a concern with Mack, depth gets more weight without him immediately.
Can never be too prepared for contingencies. But I like Mack first choice. I think the agent is an issue here.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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who is going to pay a center 3 1/2 mil more than the best centers get? that's for a 1 year deal.
Assuming that was in response to me talking about the possibility of Trading Mack due to a big surprise of a rookie studding out at Center.
You got to read the entire sentence cause you obviously missed this part of what I said.
we can contact a West Coast team and trade him of course them working out a long term deal before the trade is consummated.
1. West Coast cause its somewhere he would want to be.
2. Most important of what I said is that a Long term deal worked out between that team n Mack's agent. Cause then we will get good compensation for Mack.
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who is going to pay a center 3 1/2 mil more than the best centers get? that's for a 1 year deal.
LOL we are if he signs the Tag and doesn't get a long term deal from us.
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I think the agent is an issue here.
His agent doesn't say "OK, Alex, here's what we're going to do."
It's the other way around.
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I think the agent is an issue here.
His agent doesn't say "OK, Alex, here's what we're going to do."
It's the other way around.
But, the agent is the one that has to figure out how to pull something off. He is also the one that goes out and finds opportunities, and may or may not make recommendations - sometimes even based upon what is best for the player and not himself.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I feel like Mack would be dumb to turn down a long term offer for a lot of money. You are playing with fire if you think centers are going to be getting a huge amount of money, and with any sort of injury he would be screwed going into next years market.
No, not dumb.
Face it, he has 10 mil on the table with us and we aren't pulling as some articles suggest.
He gets 10 mil from us. Say he takes a career ending injury....he knows the career is over....who here couldn't make the 5 or so mil last the rest of the way? Not to mention any insurance his agent has got him in....a good agent would have him throwing some money towards insurance.
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j/c:
I want to try and address some of the noteworthy comments since the last time I posted. Not sure if I will remember all the points, but here goes:
---How do we know that Mack is good at line calls? Easy, there are very few times where you see guys running straight at the QB because our guys are out of position. They get pressure when they beat a guy at the LOS, rather than being in the wrong spot because of a poor line call.
--Center is not unimportant. That is just stupid. Less important than a FB? Less important than your guards? Less important than a SS? Not as important as your punter? Your d-tackles. Not sure about that one.
--Greco and Lava both took turns at center during the TC last year, not just Grecco. I don't think it was because they wanted Grecco to replace Mack. I believe it was because they needed one of them to step in if Mack got hurt.
--Jester.............good point about moving Grecco to RG and getting a more agile LG.
--tab...........the difference between Mack and Weeden is that one can play and the other sucks.
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j/c:
I want to try and address some of the noteworthy comments since the last time I posted. Not sure if I will remember all the points, but here goes:
---How do we know that Mack is good at line calls? Easy, there are very few times where you see guys running straight at the QB because our guys are out of position. They get pressure when they beat a guy at the LOS, rather than being in the wrong spot because of a poor line call.
--Center is not unimportant. That is just stupid. Less important than a FB? Less important than your guards? Less important than a SS? Not as important as your punter? Your d-tackles. Not sure about that one.
--Greco and Lava both took turns at center during the TC last year, not just Grecco. I don't think it was because they wanted Grecco to replace Mack. I believe it was because they needed one of them to step in if Mack got hurt.
--Jester.............good point about moving Grecco to RG and getting a more agile LG.
--tab...........the difference between Mack and Weeden is that one can play and the other sucks.
i think we should seriously consider drafting a C in the draft though vers. i mean, i dunno if the reports are true. but it seems clear the guy doesn't want to be here. i dunno if playing this year in cleveland will change that, but i don't want our team being caught with our pants down.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I would not be opposed to that. I agree that it does not seem like he wants to be here.
It might be a good idea to draft a guard who can also play center.
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It might be a good idea to draft a guard who can also play center.
Or a center who can also play guard. You could argue that it's just semantics but I think there is a real difference.
And I think that it's more than a good idea. I would almost consider it a necessity.
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...JC...
Mack is one of the most athletic centers in the NFL...that got me to thinking...wonder how Mack would do at OG..in the new zone blocking scheme?
Browns resign Mack, move him to OG and draft a center...now they have a backup center (Mack) and have filled their OG needs.
OR...the Browns move Mack to OG, shift Greco to Center and draft a stud OG.
...just thinking out of the box a little..
Last edited by mac; 03/21/14 05:19 AM.
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... because that would be a big help in keeping him here...  Just pulling your leg, mac. The introduction of the zone-blocking scheme has been one of the more intriguing things for me this offseason. I'm no o-line expert by any stretch, but it appears that this scheme will make it easier for us to find talent for our open guard position (just draft a stronger college tackle that is a little too slow to play tackle in the NFL), while also (seemingly) fitting better with our current personnel (Mack, Greco and Schwartz are more about technique and athleticism than raw power, I believe (I could be wrong about Schwartz)). Also, I do believe that we made a mid-season switch from a power blocking scheme to a zone back in the first or second Mangini seasons which resulted in a "night and day" improvement in o-line performance. I did a quick search, and this is what I found. Jump to the bottom sub-paragraph that's in italics. http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2010/01/post_77.htmlSorry for the Holmgren picture. I know I got mad just seeing that.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Center is not unimportant.
Probably not meant for me...but just in case wanted to clarify I never stated that.
Also noted is that Mack gets it. His Line call improved.
Noted yes we needed to make sure we had a back up plan for Mack in case of injury if we didn't think Greco or Lava or whoever couldn't handle the position we would have acquired depth for C which we did not.
But also and either stated or leaked out and implied by Banner is Grecco was to be leverage for our negotiations with Mack. Of course soon after talks did shut down for the season.
I am curious on your opinion regarding something I did say. Regarding the "SKILL SET" of a Center not being as great as an OG or an OT. Of course excellent skill set and Beyond was why Mack and very few were taken Early as Centers. NFL Football Intelligence is the big key at Center and that is learned - very few come in NFL ready or none come in NFL ready. Some learn faster than others. I've seen mid to late round draft picks come in as a rookie and do very well. I think Mack definite struggled with his line calls.
Of course it didn't help that he had a different O 2010 to 2011, 2012 was the 2nd year in Shurmur's O, It was the beginning of that season I think Grecco made some line calls then Mack took over???? Not sure 100%.
Then a new O in 2013 but he had enough NFL Football intelligence to make the right calls. I do question on the perfection on them cause I saw all get caught out of position with a blitzing LB on the Interior including Mack. Cause of the changing OGs due to injury? cause we were trying to install a Sullivan system over Warhop? Who knows why for sure. What I do know is Mack is good n NFL ready in his intelligence.
But not impossible to replace. I am so so glad he is here for the 2014 season cause we are putting in another system and he is key in getting it in place. If we had to lose him at least it would be in year two with all familiar with the new O.
Weeden n Mack?? I must have said something but in importance of my opinion it has the least value cause didn't go back from this page as I didn't want to chance losing my post here in the making. All I know was I don't think it was that Important to my opinion.
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Not much new here ...... but it's a new article anyway ...... It's looking more likely Alex Mack will remain with the Cleveland Browns, but for how long? Analysis | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._special-reportCLEVELAND, Ohio – Alex Mack possesses an endless curiosity about the world beyond his borders. The Browns' All-Pro center has spent past off-seasons vacationing in Australia, Bali, England, Greece, Italy, Japan, Spain, Taiwan, Thailand and Turkey. He joined a delegation of NFL players who traveled to Brazil in February to spread the influence of American football in a World Cup soccer year. But unless his travels have escaped detection from local and national media, Mack has remained a homebody as it pertains to free-agent visits. While his agents anticipate them and preach patience in the process, it’s looking more like Mack will return to the Browns under the one-year transition tag of $10.039 million, assuming he signs it. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Baltimore Ravens, two franchises believed to have had interest, signed other free-agent centers. The Indianapolis Colts and Green Bay Packers certainly remain options, but there are arguments to be made why those teams would go different routes. Mack’s agent, Marvin Demoff, has told reporters he’s confident he can craft a contract the Browns, who remain $30-plus million under the salary cap, wouldn’t match. But constructing such a deal and getting a rival owner to sign it are different stories. The Packers historically have not placed great value on the position or invested heavily in other team’s free agents. The signing of edge rusher Julius Peppers represents an outlier. The Colts will spend money, but how much can you devote to the offensive line? Right tackle Gosder Cherilus is due $11.6 million next season and left tackle Anthony Castonzo ($2.54 million) is a free agent after 2014. They’ve also got this guy named Luck who’s eligible for a salary bump in the next year or two. Intrepid Baltimore Sun beat writer Aaron Wilson noted Sunday that the Ravens value Mack, but thought a deal was too complex and costly to consummate. Sources say Ravens have high opinion of Alex Mack, but thought all along it would be too complicated and expensive to pull it off. — Aaron Wilson (@RavensInsider) March 23, 2014 The Browns can match any offer. Plus, it’s unlikely the team would tag him a second consecutive year – it would cost them a whopping $12 million – so adding language to an offer sheet that includes a promise of no 2015 tag wouldn’t scare off the Browns. New general manager Ray Farmer addressed Mack’s situation Monday at the NFL Annual Meeting in Orlando. “Alex is well within his rights to do the things that he thinks are necessary moving forward,” Farmer told Northeast Ohio Media Group and other reporters. “We're still committed to making sure he's a long-term Brown, and that's really our focus …I'm very confident (it can happen). It's the continued interaction, the continued support, the continued vibe that we're giving Alex that will inevitably prevail.” It says here Mack’s decision to not immediately sign the tag – he has until July 22 unless the Browns unexpectedly withdraw it – is more about surveying the 2015 free-agent landscape. That might crease some Browns fans, but it’s a smart gamble on the part of a premier center. The position is growing in importance, given the soaring sack totals and proliferation of exotic multi-front defenses. Having a savvy pivot to decode blitz schemes and call out changes is key. The good news for fans is there are mature adults on both sides of the negotiating table. Farmer recognizes Mack’s impact and respects the frustration with the constant change witnessed for five seasons here. Mack has never missed a snap or been an off-the-field liability for the organization. The center is good friends with left tackle Joe Thomas, and it’s hard to imagine he’d give anything less than his best with an opportunity for a lucrative long-term deal in 2015. There’s still a chance Demoff can build an offer sheet that another team will sign in the coming weeks. But with all the Browns' cap space and appreciation for Mack’s service, it’s a good bet No. 55 will remain in Berea for 2014. New coach Mike Pettine probably has one year to sell Mack on a future with the Browns. If they show improvement, there’s a decent chance the center stays put. If the Browns flounder again, he will play 2015 beyond the borders of Cuyahoga County. Machu Picchu view from Wayna Picchu #peru pic.twitter.com/jS2K5Yg0KA — Alex Mack (@alexmack55) February 9, 2014
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Also mentioned previously...we got our depth guy now in our new FA signing. Its important to have a competent 6 on the OL.
jmho
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Cleveland Browns owner Jimmy Haslam on Alex Mack: "I think he wants to be a Cleveland Brown'' | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._special-reportORLANDO, Fla. -- Browns owner Jimmy Haslam flew to California earlier this month with other key members of the team's staff with the sole purpose of trying to sign two-time Pro Bowl center Alex Mack to a long-term deal. The mission failed, as Mack and his agents balked at the Browns' offer, and the Browns designated him their transition player -- complete with a $10.039 million tender for 2014 -- upon returning home. The tag irked Mack and his agents, who vowed he'd receive offers in due time. "Well, we didn't get it done,'' Haslam told a small group of reporters Monday at the NFL Annual Meeting. "Time will tell. I can tell you. It didn't hurt (making the trip), but we're not across the finish line.'' Now, Mack's long-term status with the club is in jeopardy, and agent Tim Younger told cleveland.com that the Browns' star lineman will take his time signing the tender, which he can stretch all the way until July 22, just before the start of training camp. Mack's agents are still talking to other teams, and remain confident he'll draw an offer before the deadline. But Haslam still feels the trip was worthwhile, and that the Browns will ultimately achieve their goal. In my conversations with Alex, I think he wants to be a Cleveland Brown,'' Haslam said. It's rare for a team owner to make such a journey to sign one of his own free agents, but Haslam wanted Mack to know just how much of a priority he is to the Browns. "Alex Mack is a quality person and quality player, and he's the kind of person we want to play with the Cleveland Browns for a long time,'' said Haslam. "I personally like Alex a lot besides him being a good player. We were very frank. We want him to finish his career with the Cleveland Browns. Alex has some choices to make. At the end of the day, I think that's what he'll decide. But that's obviously his decision. "But when you think of who all went out there and spent time with him -- it was Ray (Farmer), Mike (Pettine), Sashi (Brown), Alex (Scheiner), myself, Andy Moeller and Kyle Shanahan, and that was not by accident,'' Haslam said. "It was to show 'you are very important to us going forward.'' More on the Haslam interview later on cleveland.com.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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...'you are very important to us going forward'.
Mack not yet signing a contract with us as yet, is a bit perplexing. What is it going to take to keep him here long-term? Does he really want to leave, was our offer that poor, or is his agent trying to be an "all-star"? I realize there is plenty of time yet, but it would be nice to get this settled (one way or the other) prior to the draft...
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That isn't happening though I agree it would be nice.
No need for them to be in a hurry. He knows he has 10 mil banked with the tender offer.
Jimmy can say what he feels, but from my view it looks like a player who doesn't want to be a part of the team any longer.
I say we get with his agent, have them sign the contract, then work with them and trade him. Then they work out any deal with the new team. At this point I'd take a 2nd rounder.
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According to the article, Mack has been out of the country, so that would eliminate his ability to visit teams. (a bit, anyway) I hope that we are able to re-sign him. I think that he will be very important this year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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nothing wrong with him wanting to take a break while his agent works. I think by the time he gets back from his trip he will have a good idea of how other teams value him and will will make a choice that gives him the most money. Nothing wrong with that. Then its up to Haslam to put his money and actions behind his words.
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Sometimes I wonder, are the agents for Mack laying back because they want the Browns to spend money and then maybe they can "craft a deal" the Browns can't/won't match.
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Quote:
Sometimes I wonder, are the agents for Mack laying back because they want the Browns to spend money and then maybe they can "craft a deal" the Browns can't/won't match.
Considering we have around 30 mil in cap space, unless we sign a LOT more FA contracts, I don't see that as a possibility. No, I don't see that as anything possible.
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Quote:
Sometimes I wonder, are the agents for Mack laying back because they want the Browns to spend money and then maybe they can "craft a deal" the Browns can't/won't match.
Considering we have around 30 mil in cap space, unless we sign a LOT more FA contracts, I don't see that as a possibility. No, I don't see that as anything possible.
Niether do I really, just asking and wondering!
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"Browns owner Jimmy Haslam flew to California earlier this month with other key members of the team's staff with the sole purpose of trying to sign two-time Pro Bowl center Alex Mack to a long-term deal."
"But when you think of who all went out there and spent time with him -- it was Ray (Farmer), Mike (Pettine), Sashi (Brown), Alex (Scheiner), myself, Andy Moeller and Kyle Shanahan, and that was not by accident,'' Haslam said. "It was to show 'you are very important to us going forward.''
jc...
This is the type of owner I thought Haslam would be when he first took over the team...someone who felt comfortable relating to his players...someone willing to show that management, the coaching staff and players were all in this together.
I don't know where "that" Jimmy Haslam went for the first 1.5 yrs as the owner, but "this" the type of owner I thought he would be when he first talked to the fans about building the Browns into a winner.
....this Jimmy, I like. 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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"Browns owner Jimmy Haslam flew to California earlier this month with other key members of the team's staff with the sole purpose of trying to sign two-time Pro Bowl center Alex Mack to a long-term deal."
"But when you think of who all went out there and spent time with him -- it was Ray (Farmer), Mike (Pettine), Sashi (Brown), Alex (Scheiner), myself, Andy Moeller and Kyle Shanahan, and that was not by accident,'' Haslam said. "It was to show 'you are very important to us going forward.''
jc...
This is the type of owner I thought Haslam would be when he first took over the team...someone who felt comfortable relating to his players...someone willing to show that management, the coaching staff and players were all in this together.
I don't know where "that" Jimmy Haslam went for the first 1.5 yrs as the owner, but "this" the type of owner I thought he would be when he first talked to the fans about building the Browns into a winner.
....this Jimmy, I like.
I agree with you Mac. He's different now. I would guess it has a lot to do with two things. 1. He had to be preoccupied with the issues at PFJ and 2. He just cleaned house and jumped in with both feet in January (or was it February) Anyway, you get the drift.
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Damanshot
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2nd String
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No need for them to be in a hurry. He knows he has 10 mil banked with the tender offer.
That's not technically accurate as another possibility comes to mind. We could draft his replacement and then withdraw the tender before he signs it shortly before training camp.
At that point I doubt anyone would be willing to offer Mack what we were willing to offer him long-term (post FA and draft most teams settled on high value positions) so to leave he's going to have to take much less money and probably on a 1 year deal. If he chooses that option then fine... let him go... he never wanted to return anyways.
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... Mack has been out of the country...
Yes, but I thought he has returned (could be wrong here). I guess he had a commitment for a specified period of time, but if you knew you were going to another team, wouldn't you want to be on hand? If you're looking for a big contract, this is not the time to be away; it's the prime FA period. It doesn't seem to add up right...
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JC...I thought Mack returned the very end of last month from his vaca trip? I recall when the combine took place there was talk of resigning players (ward and mack) and mack was out of the country...idk hopefully Mack inks a nice deal with us...he gets paid...and we have one less thing to worry about.
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No need for them to be in a hurry. He knows he has 10 mil banked with the tender offer.
That's not technically accurate as another possibility comes to mind. We could draft his replacement and then withdraw the tender before he signs it shortly before training camp.
At that point I doubt anyone would be willing to offer Mack what we were willing to offer him long-term (post FA and draft most teams settled on high value positions) so to leave he's going to have to take much less money and probably on a 1 year deal. If he chooses that option then fine... let him go... he never wanted to return anyways.
That's what I was thinking/wondering if that was our plan. Basically draft his replacement this year, sign Mack to one year offer for the coming year. Let him walk next year if the new guy is ready to replace him.
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Sure, that could happen, but I doubt it.
Why wouldn't you want to get something for a top player rather than just walk away?
I guess stranger things have hapened, but why just walk away? Makes no sense.
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An article on the 2009 Draft / offseason. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jaso...rous-offseasonsAlex Mack is one of a half dozen players drafted that year who was worth the pick. And we didn't pay Albert Haynesworth $100 million. Of course, there was that Crennel-got-fired-Mangini-got-hired thing ... 
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Just clicking, has any new news surfaced on Mack? I mean it seems deadly quiet out there...
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Nothing new.
Honestly, I think the Browns should draft a center and hand in a note along with the one with the drafted player's name on it indicating that the Browns are rescinding their transition tag offer and that Mack is a free agent. Let Goddell or whoever reads the name on the card let the world know that Mack is available.
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Nothing new.
Honestly, I think the Browns should draft a center and hand in a note along with the one with the drafted player's name on it indicating that the Browns are rescinding their transition tag offer and that Mack is a free agent. Let Goddell or whoever reads the name on the card let the world know that Mack is available.
That sounds logical and well thought out.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack Transition Tag in FA
Part 2
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