As a christian you either believe in his word or you don't, you can't interpret things that don't make logical sense to us or things that you don't like. It really comes down to Faith and if you are willing to open your heart and believe.
So if its in the bible that 2 of every animals were on the boat, then I believe it was 2 of every animal on the boat.
Quote: I love that we're actually debating the possibility of Noah's Ark.
After this, we should hash out a dialogue on the plausibility of a pumpkin being turned into a stagecoach.
or life on earth arriving via comets...
or the universe springing and originating from nothing.
Can you explain the origin of matter?
BINGO... According to science there was the big bang however where did all that matter come from? Who created it?
Nothing can magically exist from nothing, there has to be something to create it.
by that logic there has to be something to create the creator.
and deeper down the rabbit hole we go.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Basically, your objections do not make the flood account implausible by any means is all I'm saying.
So if I claim that Bing Bong, the yellow elephant with a million trunks who lives on Jupiter picked up every species of animal on the planet with his endless snout tentacles, thereby saving them from a global flood, it is YOU who has to prove the implausibility of a global flood in order for my claim to be invalidated?
Quote: I love that we're actually debating the possibility of Noah's Ark.
After this, we should hash out a dialogue on the plausibility of a pumpkin being turned into a stagecoach.
or life on earth arriving via comets...
or the universe springing and originating from nothing.
Can you explain the origin of matter?
BINGO... According to science there was the big bang however where did all that matter come from? Who created it?
Nothing can magically exist from nothing, there has to be something to create it.
by that logic there has to be something to create the creator.
and deeper down the rabbit hole we go.
Like I said before, it's easy to discredit the Bible if one is so inclined. It's also easy to discredit science - in fact it's easier to discredit science as science is constantly saying "oops, we were wrong, but now we know this is right", and then "oops, we didn't have it right this time either, but now it's right" etc, etc. If one is so inclined as to do that.
Basically, your objections do not make the flood account implausible by any means is all I'm saying.
So if I claim that Bing Bong, the yellow elephant with a million trunks who lives on Jupiter picked up every species of animal on the planet with his endless snout tentacles, thereby saving them from a global flood, it is YOU who has to prove the implausibility of a global flood in order for my claim to be invalidated?
Where can I find out/read more about Bing Bong? Does he have any credible supporters like Jesus, who spoke of the flood as an actual historical event?
Pangea, or all the land continents being together happened over 300 million years ago. It also broke up over 200 million years ago. I highly doubt that Moses happened over 200 million years ago since Christians believe their religion started 6000 years ago.
Basically, your objections do not make the flood account implausible by any means is all I'm saying.
So if I claim that Bing Bong, the yellow elephant with a million trunks who lives on Jupiter picked up every species of animal on the planet with his endless snout tentacles, thereby saving them from a global flood, it is YOU who has to prove the implausibility of a global flood in order for my claim to be invalidated?
Where can I find out/read more about Bing Bong? Does he have any credible supporters like Jesus, who spoke of the flood as an actual historical event?
Science is based on interpreting what is observed. Human observation and interpretation is fallible. Theology is based on revelation. While we hold that the basis of revelation (the Bible) is infallible, human interpretation of the Bible is fallible, just as human interpretation of observing nature are also fallible. So we have science and Theology, both fallible because both based on the observations and interpretations of man. Yet God is a solid rock. We need to be taught of Him. In Him, true science and true theology agree perfectly. We just don't fully understand yet.
Quote: A global flood is entirely plausible if a comet/asteroid hits the sea.
Also, there was an ice age that ended at about 8000 or so BC. If that major ice age ended, then there would have been massive flooding, including areas being entirely swept away.
Those who believe in global warming tell us that a relatively minor increase in the temperature of the earth would result in major storms, the coasts of the US being torn apart, and massive flooding.
Why would it have been different in the days of Noah? The ice age ends ..... and the floods break loose.
Further edit:
We know that the "cradle of mankind" was made fertile by the flooding that came with the end of the ice age, so we know that there was massive flooding. However, place that flood in the context of a Biblical story, and suddenly it has o be false.
Last edited by YTownBrownsFan; 03/28/1412:06 AM.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
As a christian you either believe in his word or you don't, you can't interpret things that don't make logical sense to us or things that you don't like. It really comes down to Faith and if you are willing to open your heart and believe.
So if its in the bible that 2 of every animals were on the boat, then I believe it was 2 of every animal on the boat.
Pangea, or all the land continents being together happened over 300 million years ago. It also broke up over 200 million years ago. I highly doubt that Moses happened over 200 million years ago since Christians believe their religion started 6000 years ago.
Edit: Missed a 0. Woops.
What makes you so sure that the continents broke up 200 million years ago? Maybe it just appears to have happened that way. Appearances can be deceiving.
You are looking at the geological processes as they exist today assuming that the rate has been a constant over a proposed time period of hundreds of millions of years. The cataclysmic description of the flood in the Bible is not even considered by you. If the flood occurred like it is described in the Bible, you are looking at a cataclysm of apocalyptic proportions.
Tectonic plate movements and fossils. If Pangea did exist 500 years ago, we would have seen the same fossils across each continent dating 500 years ago.
They numbered the verses, words, and letters of every book. They calculated the middle word and the middle letter of each. They enumerated verses which contained all the letters of the alphabet, or a certain number of them; and so on. These trivialities, as we may rightly consider them, had yet the effect of securing minute attention to the precise transmission of the text.... 5
The major work of the scribes was to transcribe the Masorah, which were marginal and endnotes about the text itself pointing out problem spots to copyists, how often a word is used, and concordance-like lists. Passing on the text of the Old Testament became a whole way of life to these men. [emphasis mine] 6
They could only use clean animal skins, both to write on, and even to bind manuscripts. Each column of writing could have no less than forty-eight, and no more than sixty lines. The ink must be black, and of a special recipe. They must verbalize each word aloud while they were writing. They must wipe the pen and wash their entire bodies before writing the word "Jehovah," every time they wrote it. There must be a review within thirty days, and if as many as three pages required corrections, the entire manuscript had to be redone. The letters, words, and paragraphs had to be counted, and the document became invalid if two letters touched each other. The middle paragraph, word and letter must correspond to those of the original document. The documents could be stored only in sacred places (synagogues, etc). As no document containing God's Word could be destroyed, they were stored, or buried, in a genizah - a Hebrew term meaning "hiding place." These were usually kept in a synagogue or sometimes in a Jewish cemetery.
Quote: Tectonic plate movements and fossils. If Pangea did exist 500 years ago, we would have seen the same fossils across each continent dating 500 years ago.
Everywhere geologists dig on all seven continents, they find billions of dead animals and plants buried and fossilized inside sedimentary rock made up of sand, mud, and lime that were deposited rapidly by water. Billions of animal remains inside rocks? That’s odd. Animals that die natural deaths rapidly decompose and disappear. Consider the buffalo. Invertebrate paleontologist, Carl Dunbar, points out:
The buffalo carcasses strewn over the plains in uncounted millions two generations ago have left hardly a present trace. The flesh was devoured by wolves and vultures within hours or days after death, and even the skeletons have now largely disappeared, the bones dissolving and crumbling into dust under the attack of the weather.[2]
When animals die today, their carcasses fall to the ground and within months their bones are dragged off by scavengers or, if left alone, they begin to decay under the wear and tear of the elements.
But something different happened with the billions of creatures we find in the fossil record. Their bones are preserved, many of them wholly intact with very little evidence of decay. This has led many paleontologists, geologists and archaeologists to conclude that these creatures were killed during a flood. Their bodies were caught in the mudflow, rapidly buried in the sediment while it was still wet and soft, and then preserved.
Quote: Tectonic plate movements and fossils. If Pangea did exist 500 years ago, we would have seen the same fossils across each continent dating 500 years ago.
So the animals that die today will become fossils within 500 years? I thought they decomposed or were eaten by scavengers or bugs.
You're not wrong, the conditions have to be right for fossilization, but that doesn't mean they're rare.
I think that certain conditions would have to be met for fossil dating to be accurate as well. Again, there is the assumption that the rate of processes have been constant over long periods of time. (uniformitarian assumptions)
The Egyptians and Greeks heavily disagree with you.
Quote: Grade-school tales aside, it was thus known long before Columbus that the Earth was round and even how big it is, approximately. But it was just not widely known among the masses in 15th-century Europe. One reason is that Eratosthenes' very own library of Alexandria had been destroyed, and there was no complete backup of its data.
Quote: conclude that these creatures were killed during a flood. Their bodies were caught in the mudflow, rapidly buried in the sediment while it was still wet and soft, and then preserved.
I recommend you check out this picture.
This image is based off of hard scientific fact. All of this is observable, recordable, and even you can view it if you go to Rocky River nature preserve in Rocky River, Ohio.
Here's another image showing how it all works.
Regarding fossils:
This is a process which takes millions and millions of years. This is why there are little to no "modern fossils". A freak flash flood (as described in Genesis) wouldn't create the current observable geologic timeline.
The timeline is beautiful. It goes from the earliest forms of life at the bottom to the most recent ones near the top in the fossil record. How could an instantaneous world wide flood explain that? Or explain why their weren't trilobites on the ark?
This is how I feel about faith.
Quote: “Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.” Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
In 1828, Washington Irving's highly romanticised biography, A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus,[15] was published and mistaken by many for a scholarly work.[16] In Book III, Chapter II of this biography, Irving gave a largely fictional account of the meetings of a commission established by the Spanish sovereigns to examine Columbus's proposals. One of his more fanciful embellishments was a highly unlikely tale that the more ignorant and bigoted members on the commission had raised scriptural objections to Columbus's assertions that the Earth was spherical.[17]
The issue in the 1490s was not the shape of the Earth, but its size, and the position of the east coast of Asia, as Irving in fact points out. Historical estimates from Ptolemy onwards placed the coast of Asia about 180° east of the Canary Islands.[18] Columbus adopted an earlier (and rejected) distance of 225°, added 28° (based on Marco Polo's travels), and then placed Japan another 30° further east. Starting from Cape St. Vincent in Portugal, Columbus made Eurasia stretch 283° to the east, leaving the Atlantic as only 77° wide. Since he planned to leave from the Canaries (9° further west), his trip to Japan would only have to cover 68° of longitude.[19]
Columbus mistakenly used a much shorter length for a degree (he substituted the shorter 1480 m Italian "mile" for the longer 2177 m Arabic "mile"), making his degree (and the circumference of the Earth) about 75 percent of what it really was.[20] The combined effect of these mistakes was that Columbus estimated the distance to Japan to be only about 5,000 km (or only to the eastern edge of the Caribbean) while the true figure is about 20,000 km. The Spanish scholars may not have known the exact distance to the east coast of Asia, but they believed that it was significantly further than Columbus' projection; and this was the basis of the criticism in Spain and Portugal, whether academic or amongst mariners, of the proposed voyage.
The disputed point was not the shape of the Earth, nor the idea that going west would eventually lead to Japan and China, but the ability of European ships to sail that far across open seas. The small ships of the day (Columbus' three ships varied between 20.5 and 23.5 m – or 67 to 77 feet – in length and carried about 90 men) simply could not carry enough food and water to reach Japan. The ships barely reached the eastern Caribbean islands. Already the crews were mutinous, not because of some fear of "sailing off the edge", but because they were running out of food and water with no chance of any new supplies within sailing distance. They were on the edge of starvation.[21] What saved Columbus was the unknown existence of the Americas precisely at the point he thought he would reach Japan. His ability to resupply with food and water from the Caribbean islands allowed him to return safely to Europe. Otherwise his crews would have died, and the ships foundered.
Quote: "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth"
Revelations 7:1
LA, I'll get to your posts tomorrow
So you don't think the writers of the Bible used metaphors and figures of speech?
Also, what type of literary genre is the Book of Revelation? Did this type of literary genre utilize symbolic language?
Do you think the description of Jesus having seven eyes and seven horns is a literal description?
What are the golden lampstands and stars in Revelation 1?
People always use examples like the one you mentioned to try to say the Bible teaches that the earth was flat, yet they don't take figures of speech and symbolism so literally with any other writing or in any other conversation. It's only the Bible that they resort to interpreting clear figures of speech so literally. .
Wth that in mind, it doesnt matter if people thought the earth was flat. What is relevant to the conversation is that the Bible does not teach that the earth was flat. Nowhere.
Couple that with the link about the "flat earth myh" posted earlier, and you find that the claim that the Bible teaches that the earth was flat is based on gross misinformation.
The chart that you posted is a mixture of observations interpeted in light of numerous assumptions and presuppositions, resulting in a human interpretation of those observations (with a starting point of presuppositions and the aforementioned assumptions.) More simply put, it is based on scientists interpretations of what they observe, and their interpretations (as we know from history and experience) are far from "proven"
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."
Right, they thought the Earth was flat....
Yes, and a circle does not have four corners.
The reason why Job used the Hebrew word for circle is partly because there was no word in ancient Hebrew for "sphere" or the technical term they use for the shape of the earth (which escapes me right now). Plus, when viewed from space, the earth does resemble a circle.
I am already anticipating what would doubtless be said by someone next, and saving them the trouble
Quote: The layers reach uniformity across the entire globe. There's no debate with the prevailing amount of evidence.
This does not prove that the continents seperated 200 million years ago. That is a assumption based on numerous presuppositions that are added to the whatever evidence you can and will point to.
Are you trying to claim that the "facts" that scientists supposedly glean from "evidence" is entirely without unproven presuppositions?
You are the one with the greater burden. You are trying to disprove something scientifically. I don't have to scientifically prove the flood. You are the one who is trying to scientifically disprove it. The burden of proof is on you. So far, you have presented theories as facts.
That there are fossils is a fact. That the earth was divided 200 million years ago is a theory. There is a difference.
They used to think the earth was divided 95 million years ago. The interpretations of science change.
Quote: Does he have any credible supporters like Jesus, who spoke of the flood as an actual historical event?
The word of Jesus is a credible source for historical fact?
It depends on if you think the writers of the Bible were credible. I myself count them as credible eyewitnesses. Everyone has to judge for themselves. We need to be sure we judge carefully though, and not judge based on misinformation like the statement "the Bible teaches the earth was flat" which is completely false.
you see that rate? now imagine america or africa? you realize how long that took for the continents to be in their current position?
and you think a flood is going to accelerate that over a few hundreds years?
to have an honest debate, we need to be real with ourselves here.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
by that logic the bible is full of assumptions. i'm trying real hard not to be a blasphemist toward my own religion, but some of you guys are taking the bible too literal.
yet if i bring up some of the nastier parts of the bible, some of you will be like, "well, thats what it was like during hat time period".
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Quote: by that logic the bible is full of assumptions. i'm trying real hard not to be a blasphemist toward my own religion, but some of you guys are taking the bible too literal.
yet if i bring up some of the nastier parts of the bible, some of you will be like, "well, thats what it was like during hat time period".
The Bible is not full of assumptions. The way people interpret or even judge the Bible is often based on assumptions and presuppositions.
As far as the nastier parts of the Bible, every one of them is easily explainable. You just have to understand what God has been doing, and what His eternal purpose is. For example, some of the seeming harshness of the Old Testament was to preserve the nation of Israel, through whom God would send His Son.
If something or someone is a hostile threat to your child (ie Israel), would it be harsh or cruel to do whatever is necessary to protect your child?
Let's not detract from the topic though. You guys got off track trying to disprove the flood. I don't need to prove the flood. You and others feel the need to disprove it. I mean, if I came on here saying I believed in the earlier mentioned Bing Bong, I wonder how many pages would be spent trying to prove me wrong.
People constantly try to call scienfific theories fact and then try to use them to disprove the Bible. I find this very interesting.
Quote: by that logic the bible is full of assumptions. i'm trying real hard not to be a blasphemist toward my own religion, but some of you guys are taking the bible too literal.
yet if i bring up some of the nastier parts of the bible, some of you will be like, "well, thats what it was like during hat time period".
If you are a Christian, perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this issue, and trust the Holy Spirit to teach us as we go along.
This thread was not about proving or disproving the flood. Did you watch the video in the link in the OP?
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