|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Man, this pisses me off. This family needs to be forwarded the rescue bill. I mean, seriously, who's footing the fuel costs for this stupidity? -------------------------------------------------- http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/06/navy-ship-sent-to-pick-up-sick-toddler-on-sailboat/SAN DIEGO – A U.S. Navy warship was headed Saturday to rescue a 1-year-old girl who fell ill on a crippled sailboat that was attempting to circle the world. Slicing the Pacific at 25 knots, the USS Vandegrift was expected to reach the Rebel Heart in the late evening or early Sunday, a Navy spokeswoman said. The 36-foot sailboat was about 900 miles off the Mexican coast when it sent a satellite ping for help to the U.S. Coast Guard on Thursday about a sick child. A family member says the boat is owned by a San Diego couple, Charlotte and Eric Kaufman, whose daughter, Lyra, had developed a fever and a rash covering most of her body and who wasn't responding to medications. The California Air National Guard dispatched four rescuers, who parachuted into the water and reached the disabled vessel. The team was able to stabilize the girl and pointed the sailboat, which does not have steering or communication abilities, toward Mexico, the 129th Rescue Wing said in a statement Saturday. The rescuers stayed aboard the Rebel Heart and are keeping watch on the ill child until the Navy frigate arrives to transfer them to shore. The girl still requires medical treatment, and the rescuers planned to stay with her until she reaches a hospital, the statement said. The USS Vandegrift is equipped with an inflatable boat and a helicopter, but no decision has been made yet about the mode of transfer until officials can evaluate the sea conditions and other factors, said Lt. Lenaya Rotklein of the U.S. Third Fleet. The Kaufmans, along with Lyra and 3-year-old Cora, were two weeks into a journey bound for the South Pacific islands and eventually New Zealand. Before the family left, Lyra had salmonella poisoning, but doctors cleared her to travel after she was healthy again, said Charlotte Kaufman's sister, Sariah Kay English. English initially was in daily email contact with the family but realized something was wrong when the communication stopped several days ago. English said she was told the vessel took on water every time the motor was turned on. It's now slowly moving using only the sails. When her sister first mentioned plans to sail with two young children, English recalled, "I thought it was nuts." But English said the couple were always careful. Eric Kaufman is a Coast Guard-licensed captain who introduced sailing to Charlotte Kaufman during one of their early dates. "They were not going into this blind. I knew they were doing this wisely," English said. English said the couple made a network of friends who traveled around the globe with children and always stocked the sailboat with more food than they need. "They were very overcautious. They're not new at sailing," English said. Unfortunately, "sickness sometimes happens." ---------------------------------------- This is so stupid. Bringing a 1 year old on a trip across the Pacific? Do they have any idea how big that ocean is? The article acts like they aren't dumb, but this is really really dumb. That's the age when kids get sick. It's no joke out there, there's no one to help you. Or at least there shouldn't be. These parents should at least foot the fuel bill (the extra fuel this naval warship is using to get there and back, as well as the California Air National Guard's Bill). And it's a lot of money. Enough to leave them in debt for a very very long time if not ever. But that's what it costs do fund an operation like this. Little kids (1 and 3 years old) shouldn't be out on the open ocean like that. And we shouldn't have to pay for these parent's stupidity. This stuff drives me nuts. Whether it's the "youngest to sail around the world alone" garbage (dumbest thing to compete for ever, should be a waiver you sign saying you will not request for any extraordinary assistance, if someone picks you up stranded, fine, but no one will go out of their way for you) or this kind of thing, where people decide to bring their little babies out on ocean voyages. When you're out there, you're relying on yourself. That's what it is. And things happen, I get that. But stupidity is your own fault. Little babies 900 miles off the coast is being a negligent parent
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 04/06/14 01:29 AM.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
So, if the dad had gotten sick - you'd feel differently?
Isn't there some maritime "code" that a ship will help another ship when in distress, or something along those lines?
I guess, to an extent, I can see a little of your point........but on the other hand, I don't see this as a huge problem. What I really don't get is the ".....stupid....." part. People of all ages get sick.
They were trying to handle it, but had mechanical problems. Just like people, machines get "sick".
I guess I just don't understand your anger about it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
A 36 foot boat is not that large to take on the oceans of the world. For an experienced captain and crew it's a challenge. According to this story you have a husband, who is an experienced captain, a wife, experience unknown and a 3 year old and a 1 year old. Once they hit 10 or 20 foot swails, what are they doing with those children, even if they aren't sick? Unless you're strapping them in, not a great idea if the boat capsizes, mommy is going to have to take care of both of them leaving dad to captain and crew a boat in heavy seas. A difficult task to say the least.
I'm not sure they make a life preserver small enough for a 1 year old and in heavy seas If something were to happen to mommy those children could become a projectiles. do you really take this kind of a chance?
I've not read anything else about this story than what was posted but I can easily see where questioning the parents decision making is appropriate.
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Quote:
Isn't there some maritime "code" that a ship will help another ship when in distress, or something along those lines?
Yes, there is most definitely. It's something we all follow. But they had to have a ship (i'm assuming), stand by while waiting for a 450 foot naval vessel to show up and bring this baby home (I assume full speed both ways, 29 kts). That requires a TON of fuel. I can't really imagine how much, but it's a lot.
Quote:
I guess, to an extent, I can see a little of your point........but on the other hand, I don't see this as a huge problem. What I really don't get is the ".....stupid....." part. People of all ages get sick.
First off, putting a 1 year old and 3 year old through the Pacific is awful. It's huge on such a little boat. I've worked on the Pacific, it's one giant swell after another, made me lose any interest in sailing around the world. Just seems like a very cramped up place for little kids. And they will be getting tossed around, no matter what. Sea sickness shows no mercy, and if that little baby (or three year old) can't hold down anything, they might find themselves in real trouble. I would assume the father and mother know by now if they themselves get sick easily and have tried the large rolling swells.
But also, a 1 year old has a much higher chance of getting sick (any type of sickness) than a healthy adult or a healthy teenager. I've never had a kid, and I don't know statistics, so I guess it's an assumption. But that's my theory. Babies get sick, their immune systems aren't strong. Parents take their sick babies to the hospital all the time. Generally the likelihood of having to bring a sick teenagers through healthy adult is much lower. That's how it goes. And that's my issue. I see it as the equivalent of bringing my 88 year old grandma around the world in a sailboat. Buster (grandma) simply shouldn't go. Common sense.
--------- I'm not going to comment on the size of the vessel being 36 feet (and whether a vessel of that type is sea worthy). There's 36 footers that are more capable than 45 footers. Simply doesn't give the type of sailboat. I have a friend who's sailed around the world with his family on a 42 footer (Pacific Sea Craft, great vessel for that type of voyage), but he certainly wasn't taken across the Pacific at the age of 1.
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 04/06/14 11:08 AM.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431 |
Lol ! I see negligent parents EVERY DAY and none of them are on the ocean .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Quote:
Lol ! I see negligent parents EVERY DAY and none of them are on the ocean .
Yup, but how many of them create a situation that requires a 450 foot ship to drive 900 miles (there and back) to pick up a sick baby?
As I said, fuel costs for this operation should be forwarded to the parents. And the fuel costs are HIGH. How high? I dunno. But a lot of money. Much more than most folks make in a year
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
I guess, to an extent, I can see a little of your point........but on the other hand, I don't see this as a huge problem. What I really don't get is the ".....stupid....." part. People of all ages get sick.
They were trying to handle it, but had mechanical problems. Just like people, machines get "sick".
I guess I just don't understand your anger about it.
A couple things.. first, a one year old and a three year old obviously are not old enough to understand the risks or provide informed consent on whether or not they would like to be put in this kind of risk. Second, yes everybody gets sick, but a 1 year old has not developed the immune system or strength to fight off or deal with things that would have minimal to no effect on an adult....
Put it on the list of things you shouldn't try to do with a 1 year old baby with other things like class 5 white water rafting, extended hiking through the rockies, and trying to get to the north pole. 
Babies can be very resilient when forced into survival situations but to willingly put a baby at risk like this for nothing more than your own enjoyment and sense of adventure is.. well, stupid.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
I guess, to an extent, I can see a little of your point........but on the other hand, I don't see this as a huge problem. What I really don't get is the ".....stupid....." part. People of all ages get sick.
They were trying to handle it, but had mechanical problems. Just like people, machines get "sick".
I guess I just don't understand your anger about it.
A couple things.. first, a one year old and a three year old obviously are not old enough to understand the risks or provide informed consent on whether or not they would like to be put in this kind of risk. Second, yes everybody gets sick, but a 1 year old has not developed the immune system or strength to fight off or deal with things that would have minimal to no effect on an adult....
Put it on the list of things you shouldn't try to do with a 1 year old baby with other things like class 5 white water rafting, extended hiking through the rockies, and trying to get to the north pole.
Babies can be very resilient when forced into survival situations but to willingly put a baby at risk like this for nothing more than your own enjoyment and sense of adventure is.. well, stupid.
Add that a 1 year old can't even tell you what's wrong, how bad they feel, or anything.
And I wouldn't want to be on a small boat in the middle of the ocean with 2 toddlers anyway.  Talk about losing my mind.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
And I wouldn't want to be on a small boat in the middle of the ocean with 2 toddlers anyway. Talk about losing my mind.
And I thought a 15 hour drive to Grandma's was bad!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927 |
If you are pissed off at this, I'll ask why no outcry on having the US coast gaurd spending millions on helecopter fuel and U.S. ships towing a carnival cruise ship (owned by a non U.S. company) full of sick passengers 900 miles from Mexico back to the U.S.?
Contrary to the belief and the wild speculated posts here. It isn't as uncomon as you think. This family has been living aboard on the seas for seven years. Many other families live aboard boats all over the world. And many have very young children while sailing the world. It's their right, it's their choice. You have no right to condem someone for something you just don't understand.
This boat was limping to a port with damaged steering when the child got sick. It was an emergency. It can happen to anyone. They said a sad goodbye to their home on water as they watched the coast guard sink their beloved sailboat for the saftey of other sailors on the high seas.
So get over it, or better yet, take on the Ocean Cruise Lines. They are the ones that constantly take advantage of their passengers and the U.S. Coast Guard when their poorly maintained ships have issues or accidents. These companies don't pay US taxes. Even their employees don't pay US taxes if they are out to sea most of the year.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480 |
Quote:
Second, yes everybody gets sick, but a 1 year old has not developed the immune system or strength to fight off or deal with things that would have minimal to no effect on an adult....
Don't quite get this part (though I have no real opinion on the issue at large) - if you have an infant, isn't this one of the best ways to keep them from getting sick? Besides immediate family members, there's really no other viruses/bacteria around that could make the kid sick.
They usually tell parents who have children with very weak immune systems to stay indoors and avoid contact with outside people.
~Lyuokdea
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Quote:
If you are pissed off at this, I'll ask why no outcry on having the US coast gaurd spending millions on helecopter fuel and U.S. ships towing a carnival cruise ship (owned by a non U.S. company) full of sick passengers 900 miles from Mexico back to the U.S.?
The US Ships towing the carnival cruise ship to the US are probably (not positive, but more than likely) operated by the company that pays my salary. So I'm not going to complain about that. Not only that, but I'm willing to bet that Carnival is footing the bill for the tow. This is normal procedure. My company will not tow a ship like that without being paid....... That's crazy.
Plus there's hundreds of US Citizens onboard a cruise ship. And the helicopter couldn't have flown 900 miles out there. Helicopters don't have that kind of range.
I spend a lot of time out there on the ocean. I've logged a lot of miles. Now I don't do it in a small sailboat, but I'm out there. And anyone who brings a 1 year old, with an undeveloped immune system should think about it again. That's just stupid. Accessibility to medical care is very difficult. As I say, you're on your own out there. We rely on ourselves to fix our problems. When the engines shut down, I'm counting on the engineers to get it going ASAP. This is just like this sailboat limping its way back to shore.
I don't care how many people bring an infant, they shouldn't be. I know someone who lived on a boat with his kids. But he never travelled far. Not with his little baby. Across the straits of Florida, but never 900 miles into that god awful Pacific Ocean. I understand that boats break down. I just disagree with bringing 1 year olds on trans pacific voyages. Babies get sick, babies need to go to the hospital. It happens much more frequently than adults/teenagers do. As I said, it would be like bringing my grandma on that voyage. It's just not smart
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927 |
Quote:
Babies can be very resilient when forced into survival situations but to willingly put a baby at risk like this for nothing more than your own enjoyment and sense of adventure is.. well, stupid.
So according to you, anyone that takes a baby with them on a vacation flight for fun, out to sea on a enjoyable fun cruise ship, or even a drive to Grandma's house, is forcing them into a survival situation and is stupid.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927 |
Your good with it? I'm not. Let's see some proof that U.S. tax payers have been reinbursed. I doubt Carnival paid anything close to the real cost if they paid anything. I do know Carnival baulked on paying 750k for the "Splendor" inncident and the real cost for that rescue was close to 4 mil. I still havn't seen any proof that Carnival reimburst U.S. tax payers for that either. I'm not just going to take your word for it.  And BTW i would think you would know that most Coast Gaurd ships have helo's on the ship ready at all times.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Don't quite get this part (though I have no real opinion on the issue at large) - if you have an infant, isn't this one of the best ways to keep them from getting sick? Besides immediate family members, there's really no other viruses/bacteria around that could make the kid sick.
I've never done or seen a study on such things but it would be my guess that sea water full of life and rain water and the air surrounding it probably has more strange organisms in it than a climate controlled house. Plus then there is the issue of food contamination if the ability to refrigerate goes out, there is the potential for running out of drinking water..... why a kid could get salmonella.. oh wait, the baby had just recovered from that...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Quote:
Quote:
Second, yes everybody gets sick, but a 1 year old has not developed the immune system or strength to fight off or deal with things that would have minimal to no effect on an adult....
Don't quite get this part (though I have no real opinion on the issue at large) - if you have an infant, isn't this one of the best ways to keep them from getting sick? Besides immediate family members, there's really no other viruses/bacteria around that could make the kid sick.
They usually tell parents who have children with very weak immune systems to stay indoors and avoid contact with outside people.
Exactly my thoughts - but I'm glad you said it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
Babies can be very resilient when forced into survival situations but to willingly put a baby at risk like this for nothing more than your own enjoyment and sense of adventure is.. well, stupid.
So according to you, anyone that takes a baby with them on a vacation flight for fun, out to sea on a enjoyable fun cruise ship, or even a drive to Grandma's house, is forcing them into a survival situation and is stupid.
No but anybody willing to take driving to grandmas or even sailing on a floating city like a cruise ship and compare it to sailing in a small vessel across the Pacific Ocean probably is.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Quote:
Your good with it? I'm not.
Let's see some proof that U.S. tax payers have been reinbursed. I doubt Carnival paid anything close to the real cost if they paid anything. I do know Carnival baulked on paying 750k for the "Splendor" inncident and the real cost for that rescue was close to 4 mil. I still havn't seen any proof that Carnival reimburst U.S. tax payers for that either.
I'm not just going to take your word for it.
And BTW i would think you would know that most Coast Gaurd ships have helo's on the ship ready at all times.
lol, obviously this is a sore subject for you. Although, just looking at it. I see the Helo's were from an aircraft carrier, not the Coast Guard. And you said, 900 mile helicopter flight. That wasn't the case. The Splendor was 130 miles off the coast according to CNN. I'm not sure who towed them, as I can't find out who. The Coast Guard escorted them.
It sounds awful, but in all fairness. These cruise ships are important to our economy. Carnival might not be a US Ship, but they pay for American Pilots, Use American Docks, and bring money to the cities they leave from. That's why many cities pay to put these docks in there (so that the cruises will dock there). The people fly in a day or two early, see what there is to see, go out to dinner, and then get on their ship. For a city like Galveson, Texas, it's a big part of their economy. There were 3300 people. Most AMERICAN citizens. That's far different than a family of four.
As for the costs of the incident, Carnival should most definitely pay up everything they're supposed to. Although I would have assumed that we'd be dealing with a gigantic insurance company and not carnival in this matter.
I just don't see how you can compare a 3300 passenger cruise ship to a 36 foot sailboat with a 1 year old and a 3 year old. I get what you're saying that being isolated should keep you away from germs, but I assume there are natural viruses, etc. that can get you sick. I'm not a doctor, but obviously this baby was able to get sick, even if it was far away from all society. The rest of the family didn't get sick. I'm willing to bet that developing immune system had something to do with the baby getting sick, yet the rest of the family being okay. And seeing as babies get sick, being 900 miles away from ANYTHING doesn't make sense when an emergency arrises.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431 |
Climate controled house ? You live in a lab or something ? if the fridge goes on the fritz guess what the ocean is full of ? Fish . Drinking water ? If you are on the ocean you are surrounded by it all you need is a simple desal kit . If you stop and consider the proximity of factories where you live I would venture a guess and sy that air quality in the middle of the ocean is more than just a little better same for rainwater .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405 |
j/c
Somehow, they will sell a sensationalized version of their story and get paid for it. There will be sharks, storms, another boat they come across with an Indian man, a tiger, zebra, orangutan and a hyena. They'll call it "Life of 3.141592.0"
"My signature line goes here."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Climate controled house ? You live in a lab or something ?
No, climate.. temperature, humidity, etc... mine stays fairly consistent and the air passes through reasonable filters, which is good when you are sick...
Quote:
if the fridge goes on the fritz guess what the ocean is full of ? Fish .
So pops is going to catch, gut, clean, and cook fish.. for a 1 year old.. great. Should have gone with breastfeeding, it's the more likely scenario.
Quote:
If you stop and consider the proximity of factories where you live I would venture a guess and sy that air quality in the middle of the ocean is more than just a little better same for rainwater .
Perhaps if a little smog is what made you sick, but it's not. It's strange airborne viruses and bacteria that your body is unfamiliar with and hasn't yet learned to deal with.. and my guess is that there are more of those in the middle of the ocean than near my house..
Look, I've taken my kids to the ocean, dipped them in the water, played in the surf, had a good time.... then they got a bath and if a rash developed (which it did once), there was a CVS on the corner and the emergency care clinic was 10 minutes away.
I'm not one of those parents who thinks kids should be raised in a bubble.. but we are talking about a 1 year old, who just got over salmonella to the point the doctor had to clear the baby to travel, on a small boat, in the middle of the pacific ocean... I apologize if it is my opinion that it sounds like a lot of unnecessary risk...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Quote:
Climate controled house ? You live in a lab or something ?
As a rule, when do people get sickest? In the winter, when they are inside, with other people.
Climate controlled houses do not prevent illness - in fact, they enable viruses to get more people sick.
Viruses don't travel out over the ocean.
Here's the deal - Family was healthy - they left on a cruise. Daughter got sick (does it matter if she was 1, or 20 years old?)....they were headed for help. Boat had problems. They couldn't make it to land. They asked for help.
Hey, what if someone lived 50 miles from a hospital, got sick, started driving to the hospital, car broke down.........
I understand, a navy ship was involved. Fuel costs. I bet that navy ship was out of port anyway, weren't they? I bet they weren't just anchored, with the engines off. No, they were cruising.
Let's drop the age of the person out of the equation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Babies can be very resilient when forced into survival situations but to willingly put a baby at risk like this for nothing more than your own enjoyment and sense of adventure is.. well, stupid.
So according to you, anyone that takes a baby with them on a vacation flight for fun, out to sea on a enjoyable fun cruise ship, or even a drive to Grandma's house, is forcing them into a survival situation and is stupid.
No but anybody willing to take driving to grandmas or even sailing on a floating city like a cruise ship and compare it to sailing in a small vessel across the Pacific Ocean probably is.
Fatal accidents can happen in any mode of transportation. Doesn't mean people are going to stop traveling the way they want. The are free to live the life the way they want. Or atleast that's what it used to be like until a certain few want to tell the rest of us how stupid we are and how we should live our lives.
Also demanding families like this to pay for their own rescue while big corp Cruise lines never have, is like sucking blood from a turnip while letting off the real abusers with the deep pockets get away scott free. Typical.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Quote:
I understand, a navy ship was involved. Fuel costs. I bet that navy ship was out of port anyway, weren't they? I bet they weren't just anchored, with the engines off. No, they were cruising.
Let's drop the age of the person out of the equation
There's a huge difference between slow steaming, and running full speed. I'm not sure how much it is for a navy ship, but at least on cargo ships, it's a very large difference.
And I can't take the age out of it, because that's the deal. 1 year old's require medical attention more than healthy adults. That's the difference. I haven't had a fever or the flu in years, but when I was a little kid, that seemed to be more regular. I've been to the hospital once (besides having to go for a surgery that was planned months ahead of time, deviated septum. And it wasn't absolutely necessary, something I was willing to pay for to improve my quality of life). So when did I go to the emergency room? When I was a baby with something called Rosiola or something like that. That's no coincidence. I was a baby, I had to go to the hospital for something that I wouldn't get when I am an adult.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,651
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,651 |
I just wonder how they fit all those diapers on board for that trip....
lol... sure they probably were using cloth...
But from a pure sanitary perspective.... that is just a terrible place for a 1 year old in diapers. Not enough Clorox or sanitizer that could be carried could keep that craft in reasonable shape. It is not surprising that the baby had difficulties, especially with salmonella, or whatever got to her.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Fatal accidents can happen in any mode of transportation.
This is one of the dumber defenses of pretty much anything... well everything has some risk, therefore picking something that is at the high end of the risk spectrum is no different...
Quote:
Doesn't mean people are going to stop traveling the way they want. The are free to live the life the way they want. Or atleast that's what it used to be like until a certain few want to tell the rest of us how stupid we are and how we should live our lives.
They are free to put their kids at risk, I am free to think they are stupid... I haven't seen, nor made, one single post that says they shouldn't be allowed to do it.
See, it wasn't that long ago that kids rode in cars standing on the front seat. I did it in the late 60s and early 70s until somebody said.. "Hey, this is stupid. In simple accidents kids are going face first into the windshield." So I will ask you, is it stupid to go 50 mph down the road with your kid standing on the front seat? Before you answer, remember, I didn't ask you if it should be illegal, I asked you if it was stupid.
Quote:
Also demanding families like this to pay for their own rescue while big corp Cruise lines never have, is like sucking blood from a turnip while letting off the real abusers with the deep pockets get away scott free. Typical.
I haven't brought up the financial aspect of this, not even once.. so you have no idea how I feel about who should pay for this, yet you have prejudged me and assumed you know how I feel... talk about typical.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927 |
Sorry DC, I was rushed and in a hurry when I posted the last comment. It was really directed at petey and I should have made that clear in a separate post.
Accidents and fatalties do happen in all modes of transportation. it can happen to anyone, driving cars, motorcycles, planes, trains and yes sailboats. This family has been traveling by sailboat for seven years without incident as far as I've heard. Sure this may have been a risky crossing, but they were experienced and could do it, and have. They were only 900 miles from safe port when the trouble started. It was an accident, and people get sick, it can happen to anyone, anywhere.
So I guess it all depends on what you think is stupid. Stupid to me, is not being prepared. They survived. They were prepared for emergencies. This one blindsided them. And now all is well that ends well.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Florida: Cruise Line Says It Will Pay for Rescue By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Published: April 15, 2013 The Carnival Corporation said Monday that it would repay the federal government an unspecified amount for responding to accidents on its Triumph and Splendor cruise ships, which left thousands of passengers stranded at sea. Carnival, the world’s largest cruise line company, said that the payments were being made voluntarily and that no government agency had requested them. But Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, Democrat of West Virginia, was highly critical last week of Carnival’s indirect responses to his inquiries about its willingness to pay. Mr. Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, estimated the Coast Guard’s costs in dealing with the crippled Triumph this year at nearly $780,000. The 2010 engine fire that left the Splendor adrift, he said, cost the Coast Guard and Navy about $3.4 million. NYT
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Sorry DC, I was rushed and in a hurry when I posted the last comment. It was really directed at petey and I should have made that clear in a separate post.
No problem.
Quote:
Accidents and fatalties do happen in all modes of transportation. it can happen to anyone, driving cars, motorcycles, planes, trains and yes sailboats.
True, you can slip and fall in your kitchen and do serious damage to yourself.. it's all about risk reward... this seems like substantial risk and for what? Just a little adventure.
Quote:
They were only 900 miles from safe port when the trouble started.
They were lucky. They were only 2 weeks into the trip, another couple weeks and they would have been much farther out to sea... could have been much worse.
Quote:
It was an accident, and people get sick, it can happen to anyone, anywhere.
Do we know yet what caused the illness? I get what you are saying, but we are talking about a baby, an infant.. 1 year old...
Quote:
So I guess it all depends on what you think is stupid. Stupid to me, is not being prepared.
Yes it does. On a 36 foot sail boat in the middle of the Pacific, you can only be so prepared. We aren't talking about a plane where if you get sick, you will be back on the ground in an hour and can be taken to a hospital, or a cruise ship which has facilities and a medical staff to treat you, we are talking about the middle of the Pacific Ocean with just your parents and minimal medical supplies... and a baby that can't even articulate what it is feeling or experiencing...
Quote:
They survived.
What if she hadn't? What if this had happened a couple weeks later when they were half way across the ocean and it took too long to get the signal, send the rescuers, get the baby to care and the baby had died of something that could have been prevented by either not being out to sea or having faster access to care? My opinion would be the same, would yours?
Quote:
They were prepared for emergencies.
I'm sorry, but when you need a rescue aircraft to have 4 guys parachute into the pacific ocean to stabilize your baby, point your boat in the right direction, wait for a Navy vessel to come out and then decide how they are going to get that baby to a hospital for further treatment... that is not my definition of "prepared"... that sounds like sending out a distress call and getting somewhat lucky.
Quote:
And now all is well that ends well.
On this we can agree.
And by the way, I would like an answer to my question... do you think kids should be allowed to ride in a car standing in the front seat? It's not a trick question but since you got all up tight at my attempt to not let people live as they choose...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Quote:
Sorry DC, I was rushed and in a hurry when I posted the last comment. It was really directed at petey and I should have made that clear in a separate post.
Accidents and fatalties do happen in all modes of transportation. it can happen to anyone, driving cars, motorcycles, planes, trains and yes sailboats. This family has been traveling by sailboat for seven years without incident as far as I've heard. Sure this may have been a risky crossing, but they were experienced and could do it, and have. They were only 900 miles from safe port when the trouble started. It was an accident, and people get sick, it can happen to anyone, anywhere.
So I guess it all depends on what you think is stupid. Stupid to me, is not being prepared. They survived. They were prepared for emergencies. This one blindsided them. And now all is well that ends well.
I don't think our mindsets are going to change on this one. I see it as negligent to bring a 1 year old on the ocean. They might have been sailing for 7 years, but as far as the article shows, they only have a 3 year old and a 1 year old. So the 3 year old has been okay so far (we don't know when they actually took him out) and the 1 year old is the one who got sick.
I'm saying, from my experience out there, I don't think it's smart to bring a little baby that far from emergency resources. And by doing so, they put themselves in a situation where a family of four is costing the government a huge amount of money to go save them. I don't equate it to the Carnival Ship, because that's a business and a ship with thousands of American citizens. Now, should Carnival pay for all expenses in that situation. Most definitely. Their job is to take care of their passengers, and it's their ship, they should pay to have it brought back to port.
And, in my opinion, babies get sick more than adults. They are weaker. They require more attention. I think it's stupid to bring a baby on a trans-pacific voyage. No question about it. Were they well equipped to be out at sea, yes. But they didn't have the foresight to think that if they are out there, something goes wrong (which is very regular), and their baby gets sick, it's gonna be a real problem to get her home. Especially if their vessel has a problem (which isn't unusual, things happen), and they're limping back home.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
And by doing so, they put themselves in a situation where a family of four is costing the government a huge amount of money to go save them.
Not to mention putting other people at risk. I know the Coast Guard folks are well trained but how often on here have we collectively bashed those who fail to leave a hurricane area even though they were given warnings and end up needing rescued? They force other people to do risky things like fly into storms, parachute into the ocean, etc to save somebody who really had no business being there in the first place.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Quote:
Not to mention putting other people at risk. I know the Coast Guard folks are well trained but how often on here have we collectively bashed those who fail to leave a hurricane area even though they were given warnings and end up needing rescued? They force other people to do risky things like fly into storms, parachute into the ocean, etc to save somebody who really had no business being there in the first place.
Quite true, especially the parachute into the ocean stuff.
But Coast Guard ships and planes go into Hurricanes all the time just to give the weather forecasters data.
My watch partner is retired Coast Guard. And for a decent amount of the beginning of his career, he was on a ship that headed into hurricanes. lol. Everyone else was going in one direction, and he was going the other.
Just to send a message back to the states that "Yup, the weather sure is crappy here" lol
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927 |
Quote:
Florida: Cruise Line Says It Will Pay for Rescue
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: April 15, 2013
The Carnival Corporation said Monday that it would repay the federal government an unspecified amount for responding to accidents on its Triumph and Splendor cruise ships, which left thousands of passengers stranded at sea. Carnival, the world’s largest cruise line company, said that the payments were being made voluntarily and that no government agency had requested them. But Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, Democrat of West Virginia, was highly critical last week of Carnival’s indirect responses to his inquiries about its willingness to pay. Mr. Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, estimated the Coast Guard’s costs in dealing with the crippled Triumph this year at nearly $780,000. The 2010 engine fire that left the Splendor adrift, he said, cost the Coast Guard and Navy about $3.4 million.
NYT
Thanks I saw this yesterday. Four years since the Splendor incident and US tax payers are still waiting for that reimbursement.
Both incidents happened near or within Mexican waters, yet the U.S. Navy and Coast guard ships are called as first responders to these ships that are not even even registered in the United States. They aren't even in US waters. Where are the countries that benifit the most from American tourists visting their ports? The Spendor is registered in Panama, the Triumph is registered in the Bahama's. Maybe instead of towing these poorly maintained ships to Fla, Alabama, or Calif, they tow them to the Port of registration so they can dump all the raw sewage, cleanup and contaminated materials on their soil instead of on our mainland. That would get some attention.
US citizens give up their rights to sue a Cruise ship company when something goes wrong, while the Cruise Ship companies expect US tax payers to foot the bill to save their ships and passengers when it does.
And as a final note on this subject, if families traveling on boats like this are expected to pay for their own rescue in the case of an emergency, they may hesitate to call for the rescue causing even more loss of life. While the Cruise ship industry will not hesitate to call the US for a rescue knowing they have four or more years to pay a reduced litigated payment less then the actual cost to US taxpayers, or possibly nothing at all.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927 |
They were prepared enough to have the correct communication devices and when to send out a proper mayday for a rescue. It was a last resort, and they were rescued.
I would like to hear what the rescuers have to say about the situation and how prepared and able they thought the family was while on the boat. They were with them for three days. Also it's not a easy task to navigate and pick up four swimmers (rescue crew) with damaged steerage. I'm fairly confident that this family is alot more experienced at sea then we know here.
They lost their home to save their child.. The only home the children have known. They all watched their home scuttled and sunk to the bottom of the sea.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Quote:
They were prepared enough to have the correct communication devices and when to send out a proper mayday for a rescue. It was a last resort, and they were rescued.
I would like to hear what the rescuers have to say about the situation and how prepared and able they thought the family was while on the boat. They were with them for three days. Also it's not a easy task to navigate and pick up four swimmers (rescue crew) with damaged steerage. I'm fairly confident that this family is alot more experienced at sea then we know here.
They lost their home to save their child.. The only home the children have known. They all watched their home scuttled and sunk to the bottom of the sea.
Oh, I don't question their competency as sailors or the equipment they have. Going on a voyage like this, it obviously makes sense to carry the necessary Communications equipment. I'm sure they had an EPIRB (which is their locator beacon), a SART (which makes your position easy to find on radar, it sends a signal when radar hits it), Radar, various VHF equipment, and probably an INMARSAT or at least an MF/HF Radio. You don't go on a voyage like this (purposely) without it.
I know quite a bit about sailing myself. I just know that I wouldn't take a 1 year old across the Pacific Ocean.
What I complain about is poor judgement. You can be Ellen MacArthur (a world class round the world sailor), but sailing into Hurricane Katrina wouldn't be a good idea. This husband and wife, can be world class sailors for all I care. I don't question that, or how well their vessel was equipped. I've never ever brought that up.
I bring up their judgement in bringing a 1 year old on a transpacific voyage. That, IMO, is bad judgement. You can be an expert marksman. Best shot in the world. But would it make sense to place your target in a crowd of people? No. That's bad judgement. Doesn't mean your a bad shot, it means you're making a bad decision
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,740
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,740 |
j/c I've been reading this thread. I think there's a big disconnect here. But I don't liken it to letting a small child stand up in the front seat of a car or truck.  Dynamics are different from family to family. Traditions such as hunting are handed down from generation to generation. While some people who are not familiar with firearms would consider it very dangerous and stupid, another family has worked with a 13 year old child for a long time to help insure it be as safe as possible for that 13 year old to handle a shotgun and hunt. Families with that strong hunting tradition find it normal, while others might be appalled. It's a matter of perspective. I can see where some would find such a sailing trip with a small child fine and others feel it's stupid. I don't believe either side makes a compelling argument.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Pit you bring up a compelling point which is that we are basically arguing over degree and where to draw the line.. Petey and I obviously feel that taking a 1 year old on a transpacific sailing voyage is somewhat irresponsible, PerfectSpiral seems to not have a problem with it...
So let's use your hunting example. At what age would you drop a loaded lethal gun into a kids hands? You mention 13.. so you obviously feel 13 is ok.. what about 12? 10? 6? 4? See at some point you are going to say, no, that's too young. Which is our point. At some age a kid becomes mobile on their own, they become articulate enough to say what's wrong with them, how they feel, etc. they become capable of following simple direction and operating basic things... I have much less of a problem with a child of that capability going on this journey.. So just as I doubt you would lay a loaded gun in the lap of a 1 year old, I wouldn't take one on a transpacific sailing adventure on a 4 person sail boat.
What if the situation was reversed? What if it was not the 1 year old that got sick? What if it was dad and mom who caught a fish and ate it and suddenly got deathly ill? Now you have a 3 year old and a 1 year old adrift in the pacific ocean... that boat could be as prepared as Johns Hopkins Hospital and it's not going to do any good because the only people capable of using it are passed out and immobile...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,740
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,740 |
I see your point, I really do.
I can also see the point that if a family feels that it is a reasonable voyage to take with small children, they may see it in a very different light than you do.
My suggestion is that each case is different and depending on a persons background and upbringing, what is and isn't seen as reasonable will vary a great deal.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
My suggestion is that each case is different and depending on a persons background and upbringing, what is and isn't seen as reasonable will vary a great deal.
Oh I get that... I'm sure that not in their wildest dreams would they have intentionally done something they thought was harmful to their children..... I'm not questioning their motives.... but that's not going to keep me from having an opinion on decisions other people make....
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,927 |
Quote:
j/c
I've been reading this thread. I think there's a big disconnect here. But I don't liken it to letting a small child stand up in the front seat of a car or truck.
Dynamics are different from family to family. Traditions such as hunting are handed down from generation to generation. While some people who are not familiar with firearms would consider it very dangerous and stupid, another family has worked with a 13 year old child for a long time to help insure it be as safe as possible for that 13 year old to handle a shotgun and hunt.
Families with that strong hunting tradition find it normal, while others might be appalled. It's a matter of perspective. I can see where some would find such a sailing trip with a small child fine and others feel it's stupid.
I don't believe either side makes a compelling argument.
No compelling argument is needed here. It's a matter of perspective as you mentioned. It's the life they choose to live. Nobody has the right to condem hunting families or sailing families or any other families about their judgement on where they choose to live their lives.
You won't hear anyone here condeming and questioning the judgement of the parents of a backwoods family with infants that live their lives in a trailer far out in the boonies, or in a flood zone, or in tornado ally.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Sick 1 year old stranded in the
ocean
|
|
