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J/C Im glad this deal is done. Mack is worth keeping around, the last thing we need is to have our OL regress. To me this also says that Jimmy H is more interested in winning than saving a couple million bucks. Mack got paid, we get to keep our PB center without having to cut or trade anyone, everyone wins. 
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It is insanely above market value. The next highest center is being paid around $7 million per year. It's a 35-45% premium ABOVE the top paid. I only use the range because I'm not sure of the exact dollar amount for the next highest paid center.
Not sure where your numbers are coming from but here's the list of the highest avg. salary for centers: link
Mack: 8.4 mil
Kalil : 8.186
Mangold: 7.725
Unger: 6.458
Kalil and Mangold are both in the 4th year of their deals. Macks deal is only 2.6% and 8.7% higher respecitvely. Unger is in the 3 year of his deal.
214dawg...excellent work digging out the facts.
Too many times we blurt out what we believe is something factual, without taking the time to verify. It takes someone willing to invest the time to find the facts and set us strait.
Based on the facts, with this contract, Mack is being paid fair market value for a center considered one of the top centers in the NFL.
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It is insanely above market value. The next highest center is being paid around $7 million per year. It's a 35-45% premium ABOVE the top paid. I only use the range because I'm not sure of the exact dollar amount for the next highest paid center.
Not sure where your numbers are coming from but here's the list of the highest avg. salary for centers: link
Mack: 8.4 mil
Kalil : 8.186
Mangold: 7.725
Unger: 6.458
Kalil and Mangold are both in the 4th year of their deals. Macks deal is only 2.6% and 8.7% higher respecitvely. Unger is in the 3 year of his deal.
214, I don't know where you got your numbers for Mack either.
First two years are guaranteed at 18 million (9 per year) Then in the 3rd year it drops to 8 million if he stays!
#GMSTRONG
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His number is taking the average value of the contract just like the other players. We don't know how those were structured but it isn't uncommon for a contract to be front loaded a bit. Chances are good those guys made a bit more in the first year or two of their contracts.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Alex Mack - 4/11/2014: Signed a five-year, $42 million contract. The deal contains $26 million guaranteed -- each of Mack's first three base salaries -- and a no-trade clause. 2014: $10 million 2015: $8 million 2016: $8 million (Player Option) 2017-2018: $8 million 2019: Free Agent Ryan Kalil - 8/19/2011: Signed a six-year, $49 million contract. The deal contains $28 million guaranteed, including an $18 million signing bonus. Kalil is eligible for an annual $250,000 workout bonus in years two through six. 2014: $855,000 (+ $3.895 million "signing" bonus) 2015: $5.366 million 2016: $7.5 million 2017: Free Agent Nick Mangold - 8/23/2010: Signed an eight-year, $57.4 million contract. The deal contains $25 million guaranteed -- $22.5 million of which is guaranteed for injury -- including a $6.373 million signing bonus and a second-year option bonus of $9.725 million. An annual $500,000 workout bonus is available in years four through eight. Mangold was paid a $3 million roster bonus and additional $3 million "signing" bonus in the 2013 offseason. 2014: $2.97 million (+ $650,000 reporting bonus) 2015: $4.8 million (+ $2 million reporting bonus) 2016: $5.6 million (+ $2.4 million reporting bonus) 2017: $6.075 million (+ $2.4 million reporting bonus) 2018: Free Agent Max Unger - 7/29/2009: Signed a five-year, $25.5 million contract. The deal contains $12 million guaranteed -- a $5.5 million signing bonus and all of Unger's first two base salaries. 2014: $5 million 2015: $4.5 million 2016: $4.25 million (+ $250,000 roster bonus) 2017: Free Agent Numbers from Rotoworld Mack would make $10 million this season, then $8 million in each of the next four seasons. The first three seasons, all $26 million worth, are guaranteed, meaning Mack has received the highest guarantee of any free agent this offseason. Adam Schefter
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He must love the attention. Every time I read something from him it has no merit. I'm not a big fan of paying a center this much, with this many crap stipulations (no trade, opt out etc.) but 40% above the top paid Center? 
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The only difference between Mack, Kalil, and Mangold is that Mack's money is guaranteed salary where as Kalil and Mangold got their guaranteed money in the form of bonuses.
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I'm glad we are keeping a pro bowl caliber center but I can't help but feeling a tad bit violated.
The headlines I'm reading, "Everyone benefits" is not true. Mack benefited. The Jags lost nothing. The Browns got a huge hit in payroll.
I also agree with what former Browns OL Ross Tucker was quoted as saying, "The center position is not worth the close to $10 million a year that Mack will reportedly command over the first three years of this deal, whether he plays in Jacksonville or Cleveland." It goes back to the thought, just how much is one man's labor truly worth?
I think we over paid but what other choice did we have? Pick up some free agent on his last legs? Draft another rookie that will need some development?
Just leaves me in the same place I've been for a few years now..."I don't care. Just show me some W's". That's all.
+1 +1
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I think it's probably best to not look at Mack's deal as anything other than a two-year $18 million fully guaranteed contract.
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Here's Mangold numbers:
Contract: 7 yr(s) / $54,075,000 Signing Bonus $9,725,000 Average Salary $7,725,000 Guaranteed: $16,097,600
2011: salary $2,260,000 + signing bonus $9,725,000 = $11,985,000
2012: salary $2,233,000
2013: salary $2,510,000 + workout bonus $500,000 + roster bonus $3,000,000 = $6,010,000
2014: salary $2,970,000 + workout bonus $500,000 + roster bonus $650,000 = $4,120,000
2015: salary $4,800,000 + workout bonus $500,000 + roster bonus $2,000,000 = $7,300,000
2016: salary $5,600,000 + workout bonus $500,000 + roster bonus $2,400,000 = $8,500,000
2017: salary $6,075,000 + workout bonus $500,000 + roster bonus $2,400,000 = $8,975,000
Plus Mangold can make another $100,000 a year in some kind of incentive.
I will try to get Kalil's numbers put up.
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I think it's probably best to not look at Mack's deal as anything other than a two-year $18 million fully guaranteed contract.
Even if we do that it still isn't a bad deal IMO. We had to start paying somebody sooner or later, so I would rather see it spent on a proven talent rather than simply bump everybody on the team X% to meet the CBA requirements.
Some people simply don't get it as of yet. Four years ago people were complaining about signing rookies to huge contracts and wanted to see proven players make the money. Now we are at the point that proven players are starting to cash in on the big money and people still complain.
There is a salary cap and teams have to on average spend 89% of that allotment. The rookies aren't getting the money anymore, so it has to be spent somewhere.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I hate to see what happens if we ever have to sign a good QB...
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I hate to see what happens if we ever have to sign a good QB...
If we're smart, we'll pay the man
#GMSTRONG
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He must love the attention. Every time I read something from him it has no merit. I'm not a big fan of paying a center this much, with this many crap stipulations (no trade, opt out etc.) but 40% above the top paid Center?
How do you come up with 40% above any other Center?  Even if we look at Mack's deal as a 2 year deal worth $18 million, then it wold only be worth an average of $9 million.
Kalil's contract is worth an average of $8.167 million.
Mack makes about $834,000 more than Kalil. (If we look at Mack's deal as a 2 year deal .... it's less if we look at it as a 5 year deal) That is roughly 10% higher than Kalil's deal.
As far as loving attention ..... what makes you necessarily think that? He is one of the best in the NFL at his position, and he had an opportunity to offer his services to anyone in the NFL. He went for the best deal he could find. The Browns chose to match that deal.
In all honesty, Mack could have decided to play under the tag, for more money this year, and at a higher annual salary than any Center ever. He then could have done this whole process again next year, either as, again, the highest paid Center ever again ....... or as a highly sought after free agent again. If he were interested in the attention, that certainly would have brought a whole lot more his way.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about it. I think it's a bit high given the position he plays, but the team has the cap room and it's one less hole to fill.
I'm not looking forward to them going through this all over again in two years, when there's likely to be a lot less money to go around after they've (hopefully) extended Haden, Gordon and anyone else who might merit it.
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I've seen that 40% number floated before on this thread and I didn't know how it was arrived at either..
I'd love to know also
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I was mocking Anarchy for saying that, you misinterpreted the context of what I wrote. To be fair it wasn't very clear, but it sounded good in my head.  What it should have said was "But Anarchy saying that his deal is 40% more than any other center?" "
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It's hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison with Ryan Kalil's contract because he's already restructured it twice. I don't think that average total money is an accurate means of assessment unless you can say with certainty that a player will play out the entire life of the deal.
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Mack's deal calls for him to get all of his guaranteed money in the first 3 years where as Kalil and Mangold got most of their guaranteed money in the first year in the form of a signing bonus.
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I'm a little late to the party as I was out of town all weekend, but I'm glad this is done. Super glad that Mack is staying around! The money is meaningless - that will work itself out.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I could easily just say "Is anyone worth 10 Million?" Because it's a game afterall.. But screw that, sports salaries are what they are, the fact that we can talk about a "couple million extra" makes my brain hurt sometimes.. But whatevs...
I think the fact that we have all this cap room makes it almost a moot point. We're not ganna fill up another 20 mil anytime soon... And by the time we do, he won't be the highest paid Center anymore... Especially if he reups for the 8mil...
If you asked me, no player is worth $10 million. I think that they should all be given a base salary with large performance bonuses. I wouldn't be upset if every player had one-year deals either, but I wouldn't mind keeping multi-year deals either.
Each position could be set so that performances look at specific attributes of the position.
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I was mocking Anarchy for saying that, you misinterpreted the context of what I wrote. To be fair it wasn't very clear, but it sounded good in my head.
What it should have said was "But Anarchy saying that his deal is 40% more than any other center?" "
Mock me any way you want, but anyone that thinks this was really a good deal for the Browns are fooling themselves.
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/center/limit-25/
Mack's deal just blew them out of the water.
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Quote:
Quote:
I was mocking Anarchy for saying that, you misinterpreted the context of what I wrote. To be fair it wasn't very clear, but it sounded good in my head.
What it should have said was "But Anarchy saying that his deal is 40% more than any other center?" "
Mock me any way you want, but anyone that thinks this was really a good deal for the Browns are fooling themselves.
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/center/limit-25/
Mack's deal just blew them out of the water.
Where does that figure in signing bonus money? does it even account for it at all? If it doesn't, then the comparison is worthless.
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Damanshot
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Ryan Khalil makes less than a bunch of guys on rookie contracts. ok bro lol
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Just clicking....
Are we seriously arguing over the Browns KEEPING talent for once? The fact is we managed to keep one of the game's best centres for the next two years. We had loads of cap room and we used some of it. And, for that matter, still HAVE loads of cap room.
He's a probowler....he's worth it. Glad we finally made a commitment to KEEP talent for once rather than go for cheap, 2nd grade replacements.
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I was mocking Anarchy for saying that, you misinterpreted the context of what I wrote. To be fair it wasn't very clear, but it sounded good in my head.
What it should have said was "But Anarchy saying that his deal is 40% more than any other center?" "
Mock me any way you want, but anyone that thinks this was really a good deal for the Browns are fooling themselves.
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/center/limit-25/
Mack's deal just blew them out of the water.
Why are you only looking at base salary? That site has many options but you chose to limit it to just a base salary comparison? Why and how is that meaningful in anyway? Not mocking... seriously don't understand what you are doing..
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+ 1
My only argument to keeping him was that he might of not wanted to play here. I've been convinced otherwise and that he was just shopping himself, capitalizing on as much $ he can get as opposed to just wanting out of Cleveland.
He's here, I'm happy, I think Alex is happy, the Browns are happy and now we can focus our attention at the guard and right tackle spot on our journey to have a stellar, top-ranked o-line. As stated several times by several different people - we still got plenty of cap to address our other young talent and soon to be drafted rookies.
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2011: salary $2,260,000 + signing bonus $9,725,000 = $11,985,000
Without going in to contract details, Didn't Mangold make about 3 mil more than what Mack will in his first year? If so than I don't see what it matters. These Centers are making just about, if not more, than Mack will in their 1st yrs. Not sure what the uproar is?
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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Not included are any signing bonuses or roster bonuses for Showing up bonuses. For a guy who states "FACT" he sure does miss a lot of them.
But anyway you look at it the Fact is - Mack is the highest paid center in the NFL. You either justify it or you don't. No doubt if we were in a bind with Cap Space we would not have signed the contract. But it was a good time and place to do so. We made a statement that we will mean business regarding the LOS and signing our young players who make out. Note we did not sign Ward as we (Farmer/Pettine) decided he was not worth the FA Market type of $$$. Mack did.
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serious question. Does that stuff get counted as salary or not?
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If you asked me, no player is worth $10 million.
I didn't see that he did ask you
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I think that they should all be given a base salary with large performance bonuses. I wouldn't be upset if every player had one-year deals either, but I wouldn't mind keeping multi-year deals either.
Then...there's the real world. 
Listen, I get where you're coming from, but comparing what isn't possible to what is pulls things out of context and reason.
Tone from the general media (don't get me started down that road) prior to the Jags contract suggested he wasn't as good as he'd hoped he was. After word of the contract coming together started to leak out the tone shifted to something akin to Mack being an elite center.
As always...the truth is somewhere in-between.
Hell, even on these boards talk about Mack has gone from terribly under-rated to terribly over-rated and back again. Reality is that he's a very good center. Is he the best? Doubt anyone could win a debate taking that stance. Does he then deserve to be the highest paid center in the game?
Trying to correlate being the highest paid to being the best at a given position warps reality. Every year new players who don't quite stack up to others get contracts which put them at the top of the food chain...but quite often only for a year or two before some player does the same to them. Mack is one of those players.
The Browns are afforded the ability to play by different guidelines than other teams right now because of the cap-flexibility the previous regime developed. We can afford to allow someone like Mack to set the market and go with it because of the space. He wins, we win...everyone wins.
So where's the problem?
There isn't one.
I like Mack. I've both defended him and been critical of him. For a while he caught undeserved heat, then more recently has caught undeserved praise. His durability has been a huge positive. He's better in the pass-game than he is the run-game where he's never gotten much push. He's not the first really good center to not be exceedingly physical. He isn't the best in the league when isolated on a defender. So does any of that create a problem if he's going to temporarily be paid more than any Center in the game?
Not one bit.
Whatever sins Banner committed in terms of failing to build his organization didn't correlate to how he was structuring the financials and the cap. If we were the Steelers or the Cowboys and had Mack in this situation we'd be in one sticky wicket right now. But we're not. This deal doesn't tie our hands at all. It's a couple of million out of a billionaires pocket, and he's fine with it. I am too.
We have enough problems and holes on this team. It's worth an extra couple million to not have to think about spending a draft pick on an unproven center.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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It's worth an extra couple million to not have to think about spending a draft pick on an unproven center.
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No they do not not in that format that was shown...What was shown was simply the Salary for those centers in those calendar years. Now Mack's contract is very unique, I think it is all or the vast majority is in straight up Salary.
There is no signing bonus. Lets say there is a signing bonus of 16 mil. I believe Khalil was close to that. It is now broken up to 4 years, so that each season you would add 4 mil to the salary and that is the CAP HIT FOR THE TEAM. Even though the player got that 16mil at the signing of the contract the team gets the hit to their cap spread out 4 years so its not one big shot. But of course if they trade him or release him they would have to "ACCOUNT" for whatever was left on their cap. But in that chart there are no bonuses accounted in those numbers...just salary. Again the way Mack contract was laid out - its all Salary even though a portion of it is Guaranteed. There is no 3 mil Salary and then you figure another 4 mil cause of the signing bonus so the cap hit is 7 mil. That site only shows the salary not the actual cap hit.
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Maybe it's just me and what I've seen here and our history of signing FA's to huge contracts like this.
But I have a bad feeling about this signing. I hope I'm wrong.
A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives.
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Maybe it's just me
Well, rest easy, it is just you
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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jc
Sorry if it was posted, but here is a nine minute video with Alex on coming back:
http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...uation-1.480663
Mack is a smart, articulate young man. Glad he's sticking around.. I get the sense that if we're winning, he'll stay.. If not and we run though another coach, kiss him good bye
#GMSTRONG
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jc
Sorry if it was posted, but here is a nine minute video with Alex on coming back:
http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...uation-1.480663
Mack is a smart, articulate young man. Glad he's sticking around.. I get the sense that if we're winning, he'll stay.. If not and we run though another coach, kiss him good bye
Who could blame him? Not this Bobcat.
Last edited by jeepnstein; 04/14/14 03:22 PM.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 Likes: 26
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 Likes: 26 |
Good lord, I thought I had broad shoulders, Mack's shoulders are like a mountain. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,999 Likes: 369
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,999 Likes: 369 |
You didn;t ask me, but I am going to try and give a general primer as far as the NFL contract system works, at least as far as I understand it.
There are various levels of payments in NFL contracts, and a variety of ways that a player can get paid.
1 is salary. This is the money that a player is paid per year in their weekly game check. They are paid during the season, 1/17th of their salary, each week during the season. Salary costs 100% against that season's salary cap. If a player is fined their fine comes out of their game check. If they are suspended without pay, or fined a week's salary, they lose a game check. Bonuses and other monies are not counted in this regard.
2 is any bonus money. (excluding signing bonuses) These can be workout bonuses, roster bonuses, and so on. They are paid only if the player fulfills the stipulation, and these bonuses count 100% against the salary cap of the year in which the bonus is paid. They are paid when stipulated in the contract. A workout bonus would be paid when a player reports to work out ..... a roster bonus would be paid when the player makes the final roster ....a Pro Bowl bonus is paid when a player makes the Pro Bowl, and so on..
3 is a signing bonus. A signing bonus is guaranteed money, but not all guaranteed money is a signing bonus. A player is paid a signing bonus in order to give him a large financial incentive to sign his deal, but one that the team can spread over the live of the player's contract. If a player signs a 5 year deal with a $10 million bonus, then $2 million ($10 million/5 years) will count against each year of the cap until it is all accounted for, If the player does not finish out his contract, then any leftover bonus money not previously accounted for against the cap becomes due. Depending on the time of the year it can all become due against one season's cap, or can be split over 2 seasons. A team with a tight cap will often use a bonus to sign/keep a player, because using that $10 million signing bonus, they can pay a lower 1st year salary to fit the deal under their cap (1st year salary of say $1 million, plus $2 million in signing bonus allocation) while the player gets the 1st year cash ($11 million in this case) that he wants.
4 is guaranteed money. Maybe a team doesn't need to worry overmuch about the cap right away, but they want to level out the money due a player, while still maintaining future flexibility. They can do this by guaranteeing years (or partial years) of a contract. We all know that NFL contracts without guarantees are essentially worthless down the road. An NFL team can cut a player down the road without penalty if there is no guaranteed money involved. (except for any part of the signing bonus that hasn't yet been allocated) Using guarantees, a player can get the huge deal their egos desire, even if everyone in the NFL knows that they are never going to see anything past years 2-3. Using Mack as an example, we guarantee to pay him years 1 and 2, unless he quits. His salary will cost 100% against the salary cap, unless we renegotiate his deal. (which seems unlikely in this case) This means that we will pay Mack his total salary this year and next, and then wait to see whether he decides to stay in year 3, or not. If he decides to stay, then his year 3 salary also becomes guaranteed. Guaranteed money of this type counts 100% against the cap of the year in which payment is guaranteed. In some contracts teams use an "offset", which says that, in the event that the player is no longer on the team for any reason, and he signs with another team, then whatever money he receives from that other team is deducted from what the original team owes him. Brandon Weeden is an example of this. The Browns had guaranteed his entire 2014, and part of his 2015 season. They had offset language, so when he signed with the Cowboys, whatever they agreed to pay him can deducted from what we owed him. I am not 100% certain what happens if the Cowboys cut him though ... whether that guarantee for the portion of the salary they agreed to pay him slides to them, or not.
Players are also paid for post-season play. This is a set amount, and is not based on their contract. Most players make quite a bit less for post-season play than they do during the regular season. Players on the 53 man roster, and veterans on IR get paid for the post-season, even if they never play.
That's a start, anyway. (as I understand it anyway)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack continued.....again.
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