Quote: You really think there's a valid philosophical debate on whether it's better to be an inhuman indentured servant or a lazy leech?
Anyone here want to pick inhuman indentured slave?
I'm not agreeing with the guy but two points.. first everybody here is going to pick lazy leech because that implies that you can work your way out of it and I'm pretty sure everybody on this board assumes they would work their way out of it.
Second, the question isn't which is better, the question is under which set of circumstances was their quality of life better? So if you remove the "upward mobility" component of the argument, slaves were never kicked out of their subsidized housing, they always had a place to live... they didn't have to worry about their food stamps running out, they always knew where their next meal was coming from... I'm not extolling the virtues of slavery obviously but if you had a non-violent owner, there was a certain consistency to being a slave that being a leech off the state just doesn't provide...
So I guess my point is that I think it is not as cut and dried as you think it is and it is worthy of some intellectual discussion...
WOW... and I suppose the Jews wanted to work for Hitler in those camps.
Are you reading your own words? Did you know that female slaves were regularly raped and forced to bear children only to see them lead a slave's life and often be sold away from them? Did you know that many of the "Soul" foods of today came about not because African American slaves preferred to eat chicken feet or hog intestines, but because that is the "Food" they were so generously afforded? Not to mention the daily degradations they suffered, or the manual labor forced upon them, the living in shacks or the occasional beatings... Who wouldn't find that an appealing life?
Were all slaves mistreated in this way, maybe not all; but that does not justify slavery. There was little to no quality in the life of a slave. No sane person could ever reach any other conclusion without the influence of racism and dirt dumb ignorance. Any education on the subject at all should yield that much knowledge.
I would like to add that I agree with Bundy's view on Mexican family's being closer. I lived in Mexico while stationed in San Diego and had a better home than I could afford on Navy pay in the US. While there I met a girl and often interacted with her family and other Mexican families. I have always said that their values seem to be much more like our's were in the 1930's and 1940's. Close knit families, very respectful of others and very hard working.
Of course I would never label an entire nation with a stereo type, but this is not a stereo type so much as a reflection of common values, I feel. Sure there are exceptions but for the most part all the Mexicans I knew were this way.
Quote: I would like to add that I agree with Bundy's view on Mexican family's being closer. I lived in Mexico while stationed in San Diego and had a better home than I could afford on Navy pay in the US. While there I met a girl and often interacted with her family and other Mexican families. I have always said that their values seem to be much more like our's were in the 1930's and 1940's. Close knit families, very respectful of others and very hard working.
Of course I would never label an entire nation with a stereo type, but this is not a stereo type so much as a reflection of common values, I feel. Sure there are exceptions but for the most part all the Mexicans I knew were this way.
But he's a racist, right? At least, that's what he's been labeled as and since it's been reported by the Ministry of Truth that way, it cannot be a lie.
I wish all these folks would actually listen to what the man said and not to what was reported that he said. Look at the people around him, who he is supposed to despise, and what they are saying about him. But, no, reporters wouldn't lie. They can't have a political agenda.
If you listen to 'the (filtered) news' from any source without a questioning eye, you're the 'useful idiot' that Lenin spoke about.
Quote: A whole lot of effort into defending this white welfare bum by saying maybe his racist rant is right if you read it a certain way
Why is discussing an event from both sides, even the unpopular side, always viewed as defending it on here? Sure, it's much easier to take the media's approach which is the knee jerk reaction that a white redneck said something about negros and slavery therefore it must be totally racist... and actually trying to figure out what he said, figure out what he meant, and see whether it has any merit or not... but if you actually try to discuss what he might have meant and whether there might be some truth to it, you are immediately defending it.
I'm sorry but this knee jerk reaction actually kills any chance at logical and reasonable conversation on serious issues and for a board that repeatedly rails against "political correctness," that's really all this is... don't dare take the counter side of an issue and try to figure it out... just take it at face value and assume you know what he meant and that the media knows what he meant and that there isn't a single grain of truth to what he said... It prevents decent debate, it prevents deeper thinking and understanding....
I would ask this guy, who calls himself a Christian, one question... when Moses led the Jewish slaves out of Rome, they wandered the dessert for 40 years with minimal food and horrible living conditions.. would you have told them they were better off back under Roman control as slaves? Just curious.
I don't see how people doing the same that you are is considered, "knee jerk". Unless you considered saying, "knee jerk" and "following the media" to mean something, that it doesn't in this case.
In the mean time, there's a whole lot of effort into defending this white welfare bum.
BTW, I also have taken the time to consider this and, yes, I think he's a racist too.
Saw this today.. it's the more complete version of what he said, with some editorial by the website.. doesn't look nearly as bad as it does when you pull out the few sentences that were reported..
Quote: . and so what I've testified to you -- I was in the Watts riot, I seen the beginning fire and I seen that last fire. What I seen is civil disturbance. People are not happy, people are thinking they don't have their freedoms, they didn't have these things, and they didn't have them.
We've progressed quite a bit from that day until now, and we sure don't want to go back. We sure don't want the colored people to go back to that point. We sure don't want these Mexican people to go back to that point. And we can make a difference right now by taking care of some of these bureaucracies, and do it in a peaceful way.
Those comments appear to change the context of the next section, which was quoted in the New York Times. One clear point the rancher made: America has progressed since the 1965 race riots and "we sure don't want to go back."
Here are the heavily quoted comments from Bundy that followed the above section edited out by most news organizations.
Let me tell, talk to you about the Mexicans, and these are just things I know about the negroes. I want to tell you one more thing I know about the negro. When I go, went, go to Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, and I would see these little government houses, and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids -- and there's always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch. They didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
And because they were basically on government subsidy -- so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things? Or are they better off under government subsidy?
You know they didn’t get more freedom, they got less freedom -- they got less family life, and their happiness -- you could see it in their faces -- they wasn't happy sitting on that concrete sidewalk. Down there they was probably growing their turnips -- so that’s all government, that’s not freedom.
But Bundy went on after saying that -- and again, his comments were edited out of most reports.
Now, let me talk about the Spanish people. You know, I understand that they come over here against our Constitution and cross our borders. But they’re here and they’re people -- and I’ve worked side by side a lot of them.
Don’t tell me they don’t work, and don’t tell me they don’t pay taxes. And don’t tell me they don’t have better family structures than most of us white people. When you see those Mexican families, they’re together, they picnic together, they’re spending their time together, and I’ll tell you in my way of thinking they’re awful nice people. And we need to have those people join us and be with us not, not come to our party.
So, Bundy thinks Hispanics are hard-working family people, and laments the current plight of American blacks under the federal welfare system while saying there has been much progress and that "we sure don't want to go back." As always, there's more to the story than what the New York Times says.
Watch the video.. tell me if this guy sounds racist.. sorry, I don't hear it..
Quote: A whole lot of effort into defending this white welfare bum by saying maybe his racist rant is right if you read it a certain way
Why is discussing an event from both sides, even the unpopular side, always viewed as defending it on here? Sure, it's much easier to take the media's approach which is the knee jerk reaction that a white redneck said something about negros and slavery therefore it must be totally racist... and actually trying to figure out what he said, figure out what he meant, and see whether it has any merit or not... but if you actually try to discuss what he might have meant and whether there might be some truth to it, you are immediately defending it.
I'm sorry but this knee jerk reaction actually kills any chance at logical and reasonable conversation on serious issues and for a board that repeatedly rails against "political correctness," that's really all this is... don't dare take the counter side of an issue and try to figure it out... just take it at face value and assume you know what he meant and that the media knows what he meant and that there isn't a single grain of truth to what he said... It prevents decent debate, it prevents deeper thinking and understanding....
I would ask this guy, who calls himself a Christian, one question... when Moses led the Jewish slaves out of Rome, they wandered the dessert for 40 years with minimal food and horrible living conditions.. would you have told them they were better off back under Roman control as slaves? Just curious.
I DO NOT BELIEVE MOSES LED THE JEWS OUT OF ROME! That is just not true! :P
Quote: He is absolutely a racist. He does however have a point on Mexican families (most commonly) being close knit.
I heard nothing that he said which points to him being a racist. I've heard it reported, but I didn't hear it.
I think that's a fairy tale and I think you believe in fairy tales.
If you don't think the line "let me tell you what I know about (or think about) the "Negro" " is racist... I think you might be racist AND LIVE IN YOUR OWN LITTLE FAIRY TALE.
Now if you want to make this personal we can go there. If I were you I'd keep my attempts at being a smart ass bottled up until you get the smarts part to compliment the ass part that you have already mastered.
I'm not going to answer anymore of your insults. You obviously want to defend this racist to protect your red-neck, bible thumping, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing political agenda; and I'm okay with that until you throw all logic and common sense out the window, then it's just like fighting with an emotional child... IS THAT YOU SHAWN HANNITY?
Quote: If you don't think the line "let me tell you what I know about (or think about) the "Negro" " is racist... I think you might be racist AND LIVE IN YOUR OWN LITTLE FAIRY TALE.
Seriously?! If someone is offended by a term that doesn't mean the person using the term is racist.
If you're black and someone calls you a 'negro' and you get all indignant, then it's YOU and not the person using the term that has the problem.
The UNCF (United Negro College Fund) uses the word in their organization. It's a perfectly harmless word and if you take it any other way, it is YOU that has the problem.
Quote: Now if you want to make this personal we can go there.
Let's go there.
Quote: If I were you I'd keep my attempts at being a smart ass bottled up until you get the smarts part to compliment the ass part that you have already mastered.
Oh! I'm offended. You called me an ass.
Quote: I'm not going to answer anymore of your insults. You obviously want to defend this racist to protect your red-neck, bible thumping, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing political agenda; and I'm okay with that until you throw all logic and common sense out the window, then it's just like fighting with an emotional child... IS THAT YOU SHAWN HANNITY?
Do what you want, man. I'll tell you what, let's ignore each other. You obviously are insinuating that I'm a racist. Typical. All you ever have to do is to call someone a 'racist' and there is no defense against it. Go on, little man. Enjoy you're fairy tale world. Reality is going to smack you in the face one day. I hope you're prepared for it.
Quote: Watch the video.. tell me if this guy sounds racist.. sorry, I don't hear it..
He's saying that those people are there because they don't know how to pick cotton. He says, "the negro" are all on subsidies and having abortions while sending their young men to jail.
If there's no other explanation for the things he's pointing out it might be a subject for debate.
If you are convinced that poverty is caused by race then you'll never hear someone make a racist comment.
Quote: He's saying that those people are there because they don't know how to pick cotton.
I took that a little more general, like they have never learned a skill or a trade and they don't have something to do every day like a job...
Quote: If you are convinced that poverty is caused by race then you'll never hear someone make a racist comment.
I don't believe its caused by race and I don't think he does either. I think his point is that a significant percentage of blacks haven't made it out of poverty since the 60s and 70s and remain in that cycle of poverty.
Look, is there a hint of racism since he doesn't specify that it happens to other races as well? I guess you could look at it that way. Is he an old redneck who uses antiquated words like "negro" and makes references to "picking cotton"? Yes, and that does make it sound worse than it is...
But when I think racism, I think about anger, hatred, disgust for another human being because they are of a different race... and I don't hear an ounce of that in his voice. What I hear is sympathy for these people in North Vegas, what I hear is that he genuinely wants them to have more, to have a better life.... to learn a skill or a trade to get a job so they don't have to resort to crime so they can stay out of prison, to break the cycle of teen pregnancy.... and he believes they will never achieve that being trapped in the welfare state... just doesn't sound like racism to me...
I will give you stereotyping.. but if stereotyping is racist, then every comedian I know is a racist, sexist, bigot... and so are all of the people that laugh at them.
That said, he still needs to pay the price for using BLM land or face the consequences. I was talking to a co-worker this morning and we agreed that he would have come across much better and garnered a lot more sympathy if the armed militia hadn't come to his "rescue"...
If he was more like Dennis, a lot more people would like him...
Its obvious Hannity and his gang are reaching for anything they can spin into an attack on Obama. This is what they deserve. Now, I see he is taking his Liberty Campaign to the Evil Marijuana. Ahhh, nothing says Liberty and Patriotism like Federal Gov't chasing pot.
SIMPLE SOLUTION: BLM should allow some wolves to graze on the same land. I'm sure there are some American wolf breeders that could use some free feed. Give the oppressed wolf breeders the Liberty to release their wolves right beside Mr Bundy's cows. Problem Solved.
Yea, racist is a little different than discrimination and stereotyping. The KKK preaching the supremacy of the white race is racism.
I only meant that if you talked like that guy then you're opening yourself up for being labeled. I don't see any reason for him to deny anything or for anybody to defend him. People should discuss whether or not what he says is true and if it's true then what are the real causes for the those conditions.
It seemed like he was attributing the problem to just being, "The Negro". He did say government subsidy was the cause, but that's a simple answer for a more complex problem.
Yea, in my own unscientific definition of racism, just noticing cultural differences isn't racism, thinking any one group is inherently better because of their race is racism.
And I agree that the fact that the way he said it, he certainly opened himself up to being labeled but I think its more a function of his age, lack of speaking savvy, etc than it is out of hatred for a group of people.
Quote: People should discuss whether or not what he says is true and if it's true then what are the real causes for the those conditions.
Amen.
Quote: It seemed like he was attributing the problem to just being, "The Negro". He did say government subsidy was the cause, but that's a simple answer for a more complex problem.
It is a very complex problem without a simple solution.. but the cycle of poverty is going to be a tough one and it will probably never be cured completely because there will always be some percentage of the population that just doesn't want to work or just makes really dumb decisions.. the key is to get the ones out that want to work to get out, and that's not just blacks, thats everybody.
Nobody wants to be a slave, nobody would say that being a slave is good.... but it's not a big stretch to say some people are essentially slaves to the government, waiting for the benevolent government to provide them their next meal, provide their housing, etc.. the biggest difference is that the government doesn't make them work for it.
Slaves did not depend on their master. They worked incredibly hard for little reward. They didn't seek out slavery, they fled slavery whenever there was a chance, risking their lives. Not to mention kidnapping, rape, torture, murder and denial of freedom. I can not think of a worse comparison than someone freely choosing to accept assistance.
Bundy is glorifying slaveowners as providers. Like Sterling feeding NBA players. Its this rising desire to elevate the elite above the rest of us. We are nothing without their charity and they could easily build their empires without anyone's labor.
still defending a guy who goes on rants against blacks, talks about welfare, all the while not paying his taxes for how long? isn't that illegal?
defend the hypocrite. this guy is an idiot.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
DC, what do you take of him saying that Martin Luther King Jr. never finished his job because black people are offended when you call them slaves? What are your thoughts on him calling himself the new Rosa Parks?
Quote: but the cycle of poverty is going to be a tough one and it will probably never be cured completely because there will always be some percentage of the population that just doesn't want to work or just makes really dumb decisions
A problem that knows no socio-economic boundaries. There are bums all over the place.
Quote: the key is to get the ones out that want to work to get out
I think this is where things get complex, but unfortunately it's extremely politicized. If I were tying to explain simply I would suggest the "chicken or the egg". A vortex of cause and effect.
Quote: but it's not a big stretch to say some people are essentially slaves to the government
Again, a problem that knows no socio-economic boundaries.
Quote: the biggest difference is that the government doesn't make them work for it
Some of the biggest govt. dollars go to people who are already profiting, so why is it ok for some to rip-off tax payers but not others.
And it's usually at this point when the political jousting starts.
