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They lost 3 games last year by a combined 13 points..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I simply found ThatGuy's statement interesting. When you simple compare both teams, you can make a strong argument Browns are not that far away. Your remark "attitude" is more in play.
I agree with that.. and I see it both ways. We are only a couple of players on either side of the ball away from being very very good.. by the same token a lot of NFL teams are in that same boat and most will not figure out how to bridge that gap.
yebat' Putin
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I dont think ppl realize how much changing coaching/schemes every year effects a team. Name one team that has had its coaches changed and won a superbowl the next year? Even in San Fran and Seattle it took a couple years to build that coaches culture. Athletes play better when they familiar and its instinctual. You lose that with the learning curve of new schemes and philosophy.
Everybody wants to make the playoffs but I think the goal this year is to shoot for .500 and expect 16 competitive games.
We have enough talent on this team but we have to have some type of rushing attack or it will be the same as last year. Not sure if Tate is the answer. And if he is, then who is his backup if he gets injured? We have talent just not enough depth everywhere except the DLine.
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We have enough talent on this team but we have to have some type of rushing attack or it will be the same as last year.
I disagree. If Hoyer starts and stays healthy we probably win 7 or 8 games last year all other things being equal. This team needs consistent QB play to get to .500. Not even great or elite, just decent... the key though is consistency, if we have 3 QBs who each start 4-6 games again, we will struggle.
yebat' Putin
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We have enough talent on this team but we have to have some type of rushing attack or it will be the same as last year.
I disagree. If Hoyer starts and stays healthy we probably win 7 or 8 games last year all other things being equal. This team needs consistent QB play to get to .500. Not even great or elite, just decent... the key though is consistency, if we have 3 QBs who each start 4-6 games again, we will struggle.
I can agree with that as well. But whomever is at QB, the complete absence of a rushing attack can cripple almost anyone. Last year was ridiculous. Only NFL level talent we had at RB on our team was OBY.
Last edited by Paco; 04/23/14 05:05 PM.
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I agree. But I think the single biggest thing that has held our running game down is our total lack of a competent passing game...
I think we can get to 8 wins with decent QB play, to get from 8 to playoff range we need to add a serious rushing threat... if, for no other reason, you have to be able to hold a lead at the end. Something we failed to do last year in large part because we couldn't run the ball at all and put it all on our defense to hold leads...
yebat' Putin
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ThatGuy, I found this statement interesting. Not to start WWIII or belittle, but how so?
Watch them play. And watch us play.
Do you think we could of blown out Denver by 35 points? I don't think last years team beats Denver if Brock Oswieler is starting..
Is Hoyer starting over Weeden or Campbell?
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We are light years away from being the Seahawks.
Seattle is a great model. Strong running game, solid QB play, and the best defense in the league.
But rarely do you hit on All Pro DBs in the 5th round, let alone 2.
You are getting beat up for this post, but I think it was a damn fine post. Understand this, the majority of those guys have a long, long history of being wrong. Yet, they act like you are whacked. Take it as a compliment.
Nice job. 
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The truth is.... Marginal teams generally do not have a QB. Good teams do have a good QB. It matter not which round they are drafted, it matters more how they play on the field in game situations. Give me a QB that has "ice in his veins" or a "will to win" in the 4th quarter over any "gunslinger", or "pretty boy in shorts". We should know this after watching flipper, and the out of bounds shots by Quinn. You win the supermodel wife if your are have "ice" and are a "pretty boy" too.... 
Last edited by ChargerDawg; 04/24/14 12:56 AM.
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You are getting beat up for this post, but I think it was a damn fine post. Understand this, the majority of those guys have a long, long history of being wrong. Yet, they act like you are whacked. Take it as a compliment.
Nice job.
Yet again you fail to grasp the concept of a discussion, a conversation, a debate... the only thing he's getting "beat up" over is his use of the term "light years away" ... so we are discussing exactly how far we are away from fielding a team like the Seahawks and what it will take to get us there.. that's it, it's a conversation.. some think we are closer, some think farther away.
And for the record, every single poster on this board has a long long history of being wrong.. even you.
yebat' Putin
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Defense isn't going to give us winning seasons, we witnessed that last year.
Having a so-so QB isn't either! We have seen that for many years now! JMHO Go Brownies!!!!
Who Let Da Dawgs Out? Woof, Woof, Woof!!!!!
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Ideally I agree but we all know that requires a partner willing to trade and make you a decent offer.. which I never count on. I always assume we will use our pick because the right offer may never come.
From everything I've seen or read, there are 4 elite players in this draft. At #4 we are in perfect position. Whether it be Watkins, Mack or one of the other two, Their will be several teams that want to trade up to get the Last one. If we don't get a great trade offer, then We take the last one! IMHO it is a No-Brainer! JMHO Go Brownies!!!!
Who Let Da Dawgs Out? Woof, Woof, Woof!!!!!
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Defense isn't going to give us winning seasons, we witnessed that last year.
Having a so-so QB isn't either! We have seen that for many years now! JMHO Go Brownies!!!!
Ok, I have to throw the BS flag.. when have we ever had so-so QB play?
Serious note.. this argument baffles me between defense and QB play.. Seattle has both, San Fran has both, Denver has both..(not always in equal amounts but none of the top teams really have a glaring weakness) we need both. We need improved defense and we need a QB, one or the other gets us to 8 or 9 wins... both gets us to 12 or 13 wins and a playoff bye... I don't see why this is so hard.
yebat' Putin
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Defense isn't going to give us winning seasons, we witnessed that last year.
Having a so-so QB isn't either! We have seen that for many years now! JMHO Go Brownies!!!!
Ok, I have to throw the BS flag.. when have we ever had so-so QB play?
Just last season? JAX, CHI and NE losses. QB play was good enough to pretty good in all of them
I haven't read the thread at all, here's my short answer: The only Khalil Mack "problem" I see for the Browns is if they actually select him, THEN he/it becomes a problem 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Just last season? JAX, CHI and NE losses. QB play was good enough to pretty good in all of them
That's fairly true but the post I was responding to said that so-so QB play isn't going to give us winning seasons.. that implies consistently average QB play throughout a season.. when have we had that? 2007?
yebat' Putin
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Defense isn't going to give us winning seasons, we witnessed that last year.
Having a so-so QB isn't either! We have seen that for many years now! JMHO Go Brownies!!!!
Then all the more reason to focus offense/QB with the top pick(s) then, right? That's my entire point on why we 'should' pass on Mack, and any other defensive player. I'm not a big believer that we can find a great caliber qb in the later rounds, nor am I a believer in Hoyer being the "answer". Having Hoyer makes me feel better about the situation, but with the 'sample size', as people here like to refer to it as, being so small there is utterly no reason to hang all hope on him.
JMO
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... every single poster on this board has a long long history of being wrong..
I've only been on this board a little over a year, so please give me some time to catch up... 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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...every single poster on this board has a long long history of being wrong....
Speak for yourself. I am never wrong.
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I am not sure what people are thinking when they talk about Hoyer having not much experience and they want to draft a two year starter from college instead. Hoyer to me seems to have everything we want in a QB. He has been coached in the NFL by some of the best coaches. He has studied NFL defenses and he brought hope to this team before being injured. I like Hoyer as the QB option for the Browns. Who here believes the Browns would have gone 1-12 with Hoyer starting last year instead of Campbell and Weeden? As for winning with offense over defense, I believe history is not on your side.
I feel I am not as stupid or ignorant as some have asserted here. The fact that there is discussion proves my point for me. May 8th, a holiday in Cleveland.
Voleur
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I am not sure what people are thinking when they talk about Hoyer having not much experience and they want to draft a two year starter from college instead. Hoyer to me seems to have everything we want in a QB. He has been coached in the NFL by some of the best coaches. He has studied NFL defenses and he brought hope to this team before being injured. I like Hoyer as the QB option for the Browns. Who here believes the Browns would have gone 1-12 with Hoyer starting last year instead of Campbell and Weeden? As for winning with offense over defense, I believe history is not on your side.
I feel I am not as stupid or ignorant as some have asserted here. The fact that there is discussion proves my point for me. May 8th, a holiday in Cleveland.
Voleur
Well said bro. Well said. Are you going to be in town or out of town that weekend? I think you're working, right? So, it's just going to be me and the bro in Texas then? I hope there aren't too many expletives coming out that evening. 
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Just last season? JAX, CHI and NE losses. QB play was good enough to pretty good in all of them
That's fairly true but the post I was responding to said that so-so QB play isn't going to give us winning seasons.. that implies consistently average QB play throughout a season.. when have we had that? 2007?
Do I understand you then? You feel that with better defense play in the Jax, NE, and Chi games we are 7 win team with Campbell at QB?
Voleur
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Not to mention, Wilson WAS/always has been elite...But stubborn NFL GMs passed on him because of his stature.
Well, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me..
I don't get your point here. Wilson was very good last year, but Not Elite! He was a good quarterback on an elite team. Elite is a QB that carries his team, not the other way around. Do you feel you would be feeling this way if he played for the Bucs or Bills? He probably wouldn't have made the playoffs. I agree he was a late round gem, but Not an Elite QB. JMHO Go Brownies!!!!!
Who Let Da Dawgs Out? Woof, Woof, Woof!!!!!
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Just last season? JAX, CHI and NE losses. QB play was good enough to pretty good in all of them
That's fairly true but the post I was responding to said that so-so QB play isn't going to give us winning seasons.. that implies consistently average QB play throughout a season.. when have we had that? 2007?
Do I understand you then? You feel that with better defense play in the Jax, NE, and Chi games we are 7 win team with Campbell at QB?
Voleur
Certainly could be understood that way, bro. If the defense doesn't collapse in those games, we could very well have won all of them.
It could also be taken that if we had Hoyer at QB, we would have won all of those games because we probably would have scored more points.
You could add the Chiefs game to that as well. And the Jets game. And the Lions game.
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My point as well Anarchy2day. I feel the Browns can make huge strides this year. The Browns need to build a team that can beat Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and the Bengals. I have always heard you win championships with defense. Let us consider winning the AFC North in the way it is usually won, with defense. I do not feel I am being foolish in my assessment here.
Voleur
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While that's true to an extent, Baltimore has Flacco, Pitt has Roethlisberger and Cincy has Dalton throwing to good WR's.
Not that their D's are slouches, but to discount the fact they all have pretty good QB's I believe is short sighted.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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While that's true to an extent, Baltimore has Flacco, Pitt has Roethlisberger and Cincy has Dalton throwing to good WR's.
Not that their D's are slouches, but to discount the fact they all have pretty good QB's I believe is short sighted.
I think the question about QB is, would those teams be good with Hoyer at QB?. Could it be honestly said that those QB's benefitted more from their defenses than their own skills as QBs.
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My point as well Anarchy2day. I feel the Browns can make huge strides this year. The Browns need to build a team that can beat Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and the Bengals. I have always heard you win championships with defense. Let us consider winning the AFC North in the way it is usually won, with defense. I do not feel I am being foolish in my assessment here.
Voleur
You're not bro. Your not. If I get it right, you're off that weekend from work.  We can watch it and discuss and quaff some brewskis! And we can get the bro in Tejas on the phone too! Should be plenty of choice words going around that night. I might have to send the wife out on a "girls night out weekend".
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I think the question about QB is, would those teams be good with Hoyer at QB?. Could it be honestly said that those QB's benefitted more from their defenses than their own skills as QBs.
If you look at Baltimore's last SB run, no. That D could not have won a SB without Flacco having the hot streak he had. Baltimore's first SB run was all D. So it works both ways.
People can bring up Hoyer all they wish. Nobody can say what we have in Hoyer based on two games. Minny had 12 Int's all year, three from Hoyer. Cincy's secondary was decimated with injuries when we played them. So while we all have great hope in Hoyer, the jury isn't even close to being in.
Had Hoyer of had the entire season to play, we would know what we had in him and the debate would be much clearer, but that isn't what happened.
I don't believe that anyone can actually try to dismiss Big Ben and Flacco, even Dalton to a lesser extent when looking at the success of those teams. When you combine that with the fact that both Pitt and Balt. D's aren't what they used to be, I'd say we see balance there, not one or the other per say.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I'll say this again and again..first pick should be instant starter and pro bowl worthy.
Which of the top four fits that?
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Good question....
I can't make up my mind on the QBs. I switch almost daily, probably from reading reports (which I shouldn't base my opinion on) and looking briefly at youtube vids. At this point, I'm very skeptical of the QBs outside of Manziel in terms of who would start because of where they're drafted. So, as of today, I'll say:
Clowney
Robinson
Matthews
Manziel
Mack
Watkins
Lewan
Mosely
Evans
Ebron
Barr
Dennard
Martin
Dix
NIx
I think the last nine are out of the question at #4.
JMO
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Not to mention, Wilson WAS/always has been elite...But stubborn NFL GMs passed on him because of his stature.
Well, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me..
I don't get your point here. Wilson was very good last year, but Not Elite! He was a good quarterback on an elite team. Elite is a QB that carries his team, not the other way around. Do you feel you would be feeling this way if he played for the Bucs or Bills? He probably wouldn't have made the playoffs. I agree he was a late round gem, but Not an Elite QB. JMHO Go Brownies!!!!!
Would Seattle have won the Super Bowl w/Weeden? Would they have made the playoffs? Would they even have had a winning record?
H and H drafted Weeden in the first round. Wilson was drafted in the 3rd round of the same draft.
Great move. 
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I still draft either Bridgewater or Manziel. And I wouldn't even consider anyone else if either of those guys were on the board. Man, this is shaping up to be a K2 over Ben and a Leon over Rodgers year. Marvelous.
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I think it all depends on Hoyer...if hes good...then we wont worry at all
Or if we grab a late round guy and actually develop him. I think that may be a bigger downfall to our changing regimes...how do you develop anyone to take over if theres a different everything every year.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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If you look at Baltimore's last SB run, no. That D could not have won a SB without Flacco having the hot streak he had. Baltimore's first SB run was all D. So it works both ways.
So my point is still valid, correct?
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People can bring up Hoyer all they wish. Nobody can say what we have in Hoyer based on two games. Minny had 12 Int's all year, three from Hoyer. Cincy's secondary was decimated with injuries when we played them. So while we all have great hope in Hoyer, the jury isn't even close to being in.
Had Hoyer of had the entire season to play, we would know what we had in him and the debate would be much clearer, but that isn't what happened.
We have Hoyer with only limited time on the field but he has been coached in the NFL, seen NFL defensive schemes, knows the speed of the game, more so than any rookie draft pick, in essence he is the developed quarterback people talk about. The same could be said about Campbell and Weeden as we saw more of them prior to last year than we saw in Hoyer and does anyone think the Browns would have been better off with Weeden or Campbell than Hoyer?
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I don't believe that anyone can actually try to dismiss Big Ben and Flacco, even Dalton to a lesser extent when looking at the success of those teams. When you combine that with the fact that both Pitt and Balt. D's aren't what they used to be, I'd say we see balance there, not one or the other per say.
I think the fact that the defenses are not what they used to be in Pittsburgh and Baltimore is a testimony to the fact that Big Ben and Joe Flacco are not able to lead their teams into the playoffs without a great defense. Flacco's run in the playoffs is the closest but still, his team was in the position to do what he did because of the defense to begin with. As for the Bengals, they have a top elite NFL defense. Dalton is prone to bad decisions leaving his defense to bail him out. When Dalton does well, the team blows out the other team. When Dalton struggles, the defense pulls the team to victory or they lose generally. I do not believe that Dalton is THE reason the Bengals have risen as they have. I contend that he is along for the ride and he has above average skills on a team with an elite defense.
Voleur
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So my point is still valid, correct?
I don't think so. I don't believe we usually see teams heavy in D without a good QB do much. That Rats last SB run could not have happened without Flacco period. That D would not have carried them. Unless you're trying to change your point at this juncture?
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We have Hoyer with only limited time on the field but he has been coached in the NFL, seen NFL defensive schemes, knows the speed of the game, more so than any rookie draft pick, in essence he is the developed quarterback people talk about.
So have tons of QB's who never amounted to a hill of beans. I really don't get your point here? Hoyer played 2 games against one very bad secondary who lit him up for 3int's. and one D whose secondary was pretty much on the sideline with injuries. Now if based on that you want to hitch your wagons to the Hoyer train, you have at it. That's a HUGE gamble to take based on such a small body of work taking those facts into consideration.
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The same could be said about Campbell and Weeden as we saw more of them prior to last year than we saw in Hoyer and does anyone think the Browns would have been better off with Weeden or Campbell than Hoyer?
Since both of them were cut, what's that tell you?
So one sucked really bad and one just sucked slightly less. And Hoyer will probably even suck less than both of them? I keep seeing you reach as to why we should hitch our wagons to Hoyer. We will never agree on that. I've seen TONS of back-ups come in and look great for a couple of games only to flame out. Not saying that will happen with Hoyer, but the likelihood is a fairly high one.
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I think the fact that the defenses are not what they used to be in Pittsburgh and Baltimore is a testimony to the fact that Big Ben and Joe Flacco are not able to lead their teams into the playoffs without a great defense. Flacco's run in the playoffs is the closest but still, his team was in the position to do what he did because of the defense to begin with. As for the Bengals, they have a top elite NFL defense. Dalton is prone to bad decisions leaving his defense to bail him out. When Dalton does well, the team blows out the other team. When Dalton struggles, the defense pulls the team to victory or they lose generally. I do not believe that Dalton is THE reason the Bengals have risen as they have. I contend that he is along for the ride and he has above average skills on a team with an elite defense.
Voleur
We agree that Dalton isn't THE reason. Much like Flacco, he's very hot or cold. We see what happens when he's cold. One and out in the playoffs. And that's with that great D you keep talking about.
And you can try to re-write history if you wish, but it wasn't just Baltimore's D who "got them to the playoffs that year". While Flacco certainly wasn't playing on the level of that playoff run, he played well and got them more than you are trying to indicate.
You will see many who hope that Hoyer is successful. I'm one of them. But not many will put their eggs in the Hoyer basket based on two games. There's good and valid reasons why that's so.
My point all along is that a team needs some balance. Wilson is a VERY good QB in Seattle. People often times try to see him short. (pun, see what I did there?)
But you don't win in this league without a good QB. And let me ask you, in both the FA market and the draft, we have sunk investments there three of the past four years over and over. At what point do we balance this out and give those D players we have so heavily invested in time to gel and work?
At some point you can't keep concentrating on one side of the ball and expect to go anywhere.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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You will see many who hope that Hoyer is successful. I'm one of them. But not many will put their eggs in the Hoyer basket based on two games. There's good and valid reasons why that's so.
Pretty much this in a nutshell, well put.
Hoyer keeps reminding of an AVG Minor League baseball player, who got an emergency call and did well in small sample size exposure. Yes, he gets the kudos for grabbing his chance by the horns, but he also had A LOT going his way: from Gordon returning for his starts and not yet a star in the league (and thus less attention) to facing banged up DBs. His BABIP is due some regression
Hoyer is a good QB to have on the roster no matter what, but I want Farmer to draft 2 QBs this draft similarly to what the Redskins did 2 year ago. Shannahan developed both of them pretty well. Take whoever of the big guys, you believe in the most early and then Murray in the mid rounds, who's a perfect WCO fit. That'd be a much better looking QB depth chart then say: Hoyer, Grossman and mid round QB.
QB is our no1 need and the Browns brought in pretty much anyone with a draftable grade for a workout and/or private meeting
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Quote:
I want Farmer to draft 2 QBs this draft similarly to what the Redskins did 2 year ago.
This seems to be a popular sentiment, but I am not feeling it. I want us to draft either Teddy or Manziel and be done w/it.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Quote:
I want Farmer to draft 2 QBs this draft similarly to what the Redskins did 2 year ago.
This seems to be a popular sentiment, but I am not feeling it. I want us to draft either Teddy or Manziel and be done w/it.
Considering we have Hoyer, I don't think we need to draft two.. As far as a QB3, I don't really care, because if that guy sees the field, we're probably headed for 4-12 again anyway.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363 |
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I really don't get your point here? Hoyer played 2 games against one very bad secondary who lit him up for 3int's.
People always bring this up, but forget to add that even though he did, he lead the team to a win. He made up for his mistakes. IMO, that is huge. He won those games, like he should have. If Weeden would have been playing, I doubt that happens.
Two games or not, he played well, and rose to the adversity. Those are good qualitieI would like to add, that he had not taken reps with the starters at all, until the week of the game. He was well prepared, and showed it. That has got to count.
This is not me putting Hoyer as a sure thing, but having the time he has had to study the position, and learning with Brady. Not to mention running different offenses as a scout team QB, could have taught him what he needs to succeed at this point in his career.
Last edited by E.Ryze19; 04/27/14 09:29 PM.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212 |
Quote:
Quote:
I really don't get your point here? Hoyer played 2 games against one very bad secondary who lit him up for 3int's.
People always bring this up, but forget to add that even though he did, he lead the team to a win. He made up for his mistakes. IMO, that is huge. He won those games, like he should have. If Weeden would have been playing, I doubt that happens.
Two games or not, he played well, and rose to the adversity. Those are good qualitieI would like to add, that he had not taken reps with the starters at all, until the week of the game. He was well prepared, and showed it. That has got to count.
This is not me putting Hoyer as a sure thing, but having the time he has had to study the position, and learning with Brady. Not to mention running different offenses as a scout team QB, could have taught him what he needs to succeed at this point in his career.
not sure what this is doing in the Mack thread....... but I'll side track it also:
I can't tell you how hostile an environment that Viking game was. The Vikes were as desperate as the browns for a win. The browns had just traded Trent. Of course they were going to throw the ball. Jared Allen hadn't mailed in the season yet. The vikes defense was still mostly intact -the injury bug hadn't hit yet. So yeah, the stats say three interceptions against a crappy defense- but at the time, the scenario was a bit different. Still, two games to assess a QB, doesn't give a lot to go on....
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