DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland Browns Daily grades Ray Farmer’s offseason moves

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Maybe someday Mangini and Banner open a sect and hire you as their PR guy.

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That will have me chuckling every time I think about it.

Bravo, sir.....

Hey DC and YTown...................what happens if I respond to this? Was it my fault.....again? Yeah, I started it, right?

No Vers, just take it. Allow others to bully you. If not, YOU are the problem.

Pffffttttttttttttttttt.........."Bravo, sir." Really? That deserved a "bravo?"

I believe that it's the way you respond that invites some of the comments you get. Sorry but it's true. Sometimes though, it seems like people just make comments because they know that they can get you to go all ballistic and fly off the handle. Why give them the satisfaction. Answer the serious stuff, and blow off the stupid stuff.

I know that I sometimes get dragged down paths I don't really want to go, often over some of the stupidest stuff ........ but I think that I have some sense in that I usually shut it down sooner or later. Usually after I have beat my head against the wall until my brains hurt ..... but I shut it down sooner or later. lol

There are some people I cannot debate with, because they are right no matter what. Generally speaking, I ignore their posts, even if they respond to me. Some posters don't respond to have a discussion, but rather seem to want to prove that they are far more brilliant than the other dolts on the board.

All I can say is, don't sweat the small stuff.

EO...the main reason I consider McQuistan a starter now instead of Pinkston...experience in a zone blocking scheme.

I understand that train of thought. Here is what I think and you can take it or leave it. I think he is a vet that they brought in to be part of the OL and possibly share that knowledge with our existing players cause he can play any position and he knows Zone blocking scheme so that he can lead basically by being a field coach in practices to all. Watch they will be playing him at multiple positions in camp. One to show technique to those who are more talented and also guide your Gilkey, Faulk and any rookie we draft. What I'm thinking is I saw a new and improved physical version of Pinkston. He looked very athletic and fleet of foot as apposed to his slow and lumbering. I think he is feeling physically better after getting rid of the clot problem he was having...he probably feels so strong. He also lost a lot of fat and then gained muscle when he got the OK to work out. I know that they also pushed him with a cardio training which meant he did a lot of running and swimming. Assuming he didn't get fat during the off season and continued on this NEW PATH.

Remember Pinkston played LT his senior season. He has a good base of footwork. I think he is going to surprise all in his lateral play and ability to take on this Zone blocking scheme. He also is very intelligent and a leader. Look the hard part of the zone blocking scheme is communication. Cause its based on two Doubles. Point of attack and a back side double. Lets draw up a play....outside run can be 6 hole or take it to the 8 up to the RB. Most likely we will have a TE Lets say for X's n O's sake we are facing a 4-3. The TE and RT will double the DE...what you will have is the RT will hit the middle of the body and right shoulder of the DE while the TE will explode into the left shoulder of the DE...the TE will mostly likely then get a good punch as he punches the RT slide to the DEs left should side and seals him off - The Center and LG double the backside DT. probably with the LG getting a good punch and letting the Center slide around while the LG takes care of the Will LB. The RG meanwhile goes to the 2nd level outside and sealing off the MLB the OLB should be taken care of by our Snot Bubble FB. The TE should be on the SS and Little has a key block on the corner (why he will start). Know the OUTSIDE Zone blocking scheme is predicated on the movement of the RB...he is to always take it hard to the outside in his first two steps and then let his VISION take care of the rest. But those hard first to steps will have the D front 7-8 moving fast to that outside which Stretches the field widening gaps for an inside cut or a BIG TIME HOLE for the backside run Left of Center. Keep in mind I think this is why we got the blocking TE, this is why we got the snot bubble FB. But its all about communication. Now if the DE is 3-4...the NT will predicate what is going to happen will the RG have to take him on cause he in 1 tech on his side? Will Mack Trap pull and will we have the LG G pull. to the right. Its all about communication - Its all about the Line call by Mack which is why we are paying him what we are! Its all about - NOT STANDING UP...that is all the difference from good lateral movement to slow lateral movement. Our new OL coach should teach them up with technique and McQ will be - Show them McQ guy while they are being taught up. I think Pinkston has a lot more TALENT than McQ and is smart enough to pick things up. McQ being versatile and knowledgeable of the Scheme can fill in on any OL position who gets dinged up and the communication should be there.

JMHO

sorry big time mistake...RG has to scoop right and then seal off the onside DT. He can leave the DT once the RB gets outside of him and then go to the 2nd level...I said 4-3 then pictured 3-4 doh...Well Center can scoop step right and slide in on that DT and the RG can keep lateral into the 2nd level for a block. DT off side if 1 tech C/LG must double as described...if 3 tech LT and LG must double that DT for the cut back run. There are so many options on this we can as mentioned have Power called on the stretch edge run and the LG trap pulls and they...both can leave the edge double and let the LG finish off the block while the TE and RT move into the 2nd level. Many many options. Why Vers states it takes time to learn - its the communication involved. In the beginning its calls and then individual communication with the Line mates next to you...after a couple of seasons that is where you just get a check check as they know exactly what they are doing with the allignment they see as this is what they went over on film and in preparation during the week. This is why CONTINUITY is so so important. Pass blocking is talent and there are some OL that just don't have the talent. But Run blocking you need commitment, communication and Finish - that is why a less than talented OL can provide a run game. It is however the pass blocking that separates a good OL from a bad one.

jmho

EO...I completely forgot about Chris Faulk, the FA pickup out of LSU. He played LT at LSU and was being projected as a high draft choice in the 2013 draft...but he suffered a right knee injury in practice in late Aug 2012...had two surgeries.

Faulk is now a year and half into rehabbing the knee and if he is going to prove his value to the Browns, it should be this season, at RT or possibly at OG.

The Browns have some talent on the Oline that needs to be developed and now that the whole line is learning the new zone blocking scheme, it kind of evens the odds vs the guys who started on the Oline last season.

The way I see it, the RG and RT spots are open for competition, but again, I believe McQuistan has the advantage to start at RG or RT. One of the reasons PMc was such a good pickup was his ability to play every position on the Oline but center....PLUS, his experience playing in a zone blocking scheme for 3 seasons.

PMc, Pinkston, Schwartz, Gilkey and Faulk are possible starters on the right side...then we have OG, Jeremiah Warren and OT Martin Wallace, both FA in 2013.

We have talent on the Oline...some of it just needs to be developed. Will Farmer add more Olineman...good chance, but likely in a later round.

All one has to do is look at your description of blocking of one play to get the idea that zone blocking is a bit complicated. It's probably easier to do than it is to describe...lol.

I did find what I believe is an excellent way to "get educated" about zone blocking in the NFL...type in "Alex Gibbs" on YouTube and there are many excellent educational videos of Gibbs teaching the Zone Blocking scheme....

...just a warning, Alex Gibbs' language is bit rough.

I really don't see Faulk as much of a possibility in a ZBS. He was never terribly agile, and he always struggled with his footwork, even when he was 100% healthy. He is a mauler, not a technician. While I won't write anyone 100% off ....... I would be stunned to see him earn a role with the team this year.

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type in "Alex Gibbs" on YouTube and there are many excellent educational videos of Gibbs teaching the Zone Blocking scheme....

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He was one of the Bee Gees. He knows nothing about zone blocking.

Yeah, our OL is all set for our new zone blocking scheme.

We'll see what y'all have to say in October.

LOL....................

Man, I hated the Bee Gees.

Man, I hated the Bee Gees.

Come on you come across as a Disco dude how is it you don't like the Bee Gees...lol

Mac...until I see Faulk or Gilkey progress I can't count on it. We've had a lot of late round prospects very rare have they progressed for the OL. As for McQ don't get fooled by versatility - that just means he the guy on the outside most of his career who is OK just not good enough to start without an injury. So if he starts Outright here it doesn't say much for the OL. JoeT, Greco, Mack, Pink, Schwartz...right now on our roster anyone who breaks that is going to be drafted pretty high. and like you said possibly McQ can beat out Pink but there would probably have to be an injury involved.

jmho...no QB at 4 hoping Robinson is there.

Raise your hands if you think the Browns are done adding OL for this season..

What, no hands are raised? Then why panic now? They'll be plenty of time to get panties in a was

Raised hand (with and asterisk).

They are done adding experienced OL this season. And as 'tabber said, it would take a high round draft pick to crack this existing unit.

So, it appears they are done improving the OL this season*

Therein lies the concern.


That is, unless they take Robinson at #4 who would improve the unit day one.

I believe they could take someone at any of their top 3 selections and get a serious upgrade.

So while I too am concerned, I'm willing to see how it plays out first.

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I believe they could take someone at any of their top 3 selections and get a serious upgrade.

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I might add that they can do that at any position on the line except LT and Center. We pretty much have some of the best talent there.

Seriously? Did you even read it?

ASK me in three years because nobody is going to know till then anyway in most cases.

Browns unveil their entire player personnel staff

The Browns unveiled their entire player personnel staff this evening. The team outlined the details in the news release below.

BEREA, Ohio – The Cleveland Browns have made six additions to their player personnel staff, and promoted three individuals from within. General Manager Ray Farmer made the announcement Monday.

In addition to executive chief of staff Bill Kuharich and vice president of player personnel Morocco Brown, added earlier this month, the team on Monday named Charles Bailey, Bobby DePaul, Mike Hagen, Ron Hill and James Kirkland senior personnel associates and Scott Aligo player personnel associate. The Browns also promoted Sam DeLuca and Harrison Ritcher to player personnel associate, and promoted Colton Chapple to BLESTO scout.

“Assembling this group is an important step for our team,” Farmer said. “These individuals operate out of the spotlight, but their work is critical to our success. And contrary to what some may think, scouts work 12 months out of the year. Their families sacrifice a lot, and I appreciate all the days scouts spend away from home. Our simple philosophy is to identify and acquire players who can return winning football to our loyal fans. We’re committed to building our roster through the draft, developing that talent once it’s here, and retaining it. Each of these people is central in that process.”

Brian Decker (player personnel strategist), Brendan Donovan (research specialist, college), Frank Edgerly (senior pro scout), Ken Kovash (director of football research and player personnel assistant), Deb Kruszynski (executive assistant), Jon Sandusky (director of player personnel) and Dan Saganey (pro scout) join college area scouts Zac Bocian, Patrick Moore, Chisom Opara and Bobby Vega, to complete the team’s 2014 player personnel staff.

Charles Bailey, senior player personnel associate – Bailey served as the pro personnel director for the Jacksonville Jaguars from 2003-08. Before working with the Jaguars, Bailey spent 10 years with the Pittsburgh Steelers as a scout and pro personnel coordinator until 1999. After Pittsburgh, he worked as the vice president of football operations and assistant general manager of the New Orleans Saints.

Bobby DePaul, senior player personnel associate – DePaul played linebacker at Maryland before coaching three years at Catholic University. He then served as an assistant coach with the Washington Redskins (1989-93) and the Cincinnati Bengals (1994-96). DePaul then transitioned to personnel with the Philadelphia Eagles from 1997-2000. After serving as the pro personnel director for the Chicago Bears from 2001-09, DePaul returned to the Eagles working as a pro advance scout. In 22 years in the NFL, DePaul has helped his teams earn four Coach of the Year awards, five division titles, two Super Bowl appearances and one Super Bowl victory.

Ron Hill, senior player personnel associate – Hill comes to the Browns with 34 years of experience as an NFL scout and player personnel executive, most recently serving as the NFL’s vice president of football operations. Hill began his career as a college scout for the Dallas Cowboys, and then worked his way up to regional scout and assistant director of player personnel with the Denver Broncos. He then worked as the Jacksonville Jaguars’ director of pro personnel before serving as the Atlanta Falcons’ vice president of football operations and vice president of player personnel for seven years. Over the course of his time on NFL personnel staffs, Hill has been a part of 10 conference championship berths and four Super Bowls.

Mike Hagen, senior player personnel associate – Hagen was most recently working as a scouting consultant with the NFL football operations department. Over the course of Hagen’s 27 years in the league, he has worked with four Super Bowl teams in both executive and player personnel positions. Hagen was on staff for Super Bowls with the Falcons (XXXIII) and the Redskins (XXVI), and made multiple Super Bowl trips with the Broncos (XXII, XXIV) and Cowboys (XXVII, XXVIII). From 2010-12, Hagen worked as the assistant general manager/pro personnel director of the Toronto Argonauts in the Canadian Football League. His brother, Steve, is a former Browns assistant coach.

James Kirkland, senior player personnel associate – Kirkland most recently worked as a pro scout for the Tennessee Titans in 2013. He got his NFL start as a volunteer scouting intern with the Falcons. Kirkland was hired by the Browns in 2004 as an area scout. He was later promoted to assistant director of pro personnel in 2007. After three seasons in that role, Kirkland worked with the Chicago Bears from 2010-12 as a pro scouting assistant, a pro scout and an area scout.

Scott Aligo, player personnel associate – Aligo was most recently the defensive ends coach for the University of Northern Colorado football team. Aligo also spent time as an assistant at Texas A&M, Oklahoma State and Washburn. Prior to coaching, he served as a player personnel assistant with the Kansas City Chiefs from 2005-09.

Colton Chapple, BLESTO – Chapple began working as a scout on the Browns player personnel staff in 2013 after graduating from Harvard. Chapple played quarterback for four years at Harvard, throwing for 2,567 yards and 24 TDs as a senior in 2012.

Sam DeLuca, player personnel associate – DeLuca graduated from Arizona State in May 2013 and worked as a pro personnel intern with the Philadelphia Eagles in the summers of 2011 and 2012. Before interning in the personnel department, he worked as an equipment assistant for the Eagles from 2006-10.

Harrison Ritcher, player personnel associate – Ritcher played fullback at North Carolina State from 2006-09. After graduation, Ritcher served as a recruiting intern at Florida State in 2010. He then began working in the Browns personnel department as a scouting intern during the 2012 and 2013 seasons.

http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...-staff-1.498425

Browns add more old voices to personnel staff

Posted by Darin Gantt on June 24, 2014, 7:45 AM EDT

From the time he took the job as Browns General Manager, Ray Farmer acknowledged his lack of experience.

By hiring former Chiefs boss Bill Kuharich as an adviser (and later giving him the title executive chief of staff, which makes this sound like The West Wing), Farmer showed a willingness to surround himself with veteran voices. He’s continuing that now.

Per Tony Grossi of ESPNCleveland.com, the Browns have revamped their personnel staff, with many of his old Chiefs co-workers and older voices.

Among the hires were Ron Hill (who gave Farmer his first scouting job in Atlanta), Charles Bailey (who Kuharich hired in New Orleans) and Mike Hagen (Farmer’s supervisor in Atlanta).

He also hired longtime scout Bobby DePaul, and added two young scouts he worked with previously.

Hiring guys you know is common practice in the NFL, and in the inter-connected world of personnel men, it’s inevitable.

But the degree to which Farmer is surrounding himself with old pals is impressive, as he puts his own stamp on a franchise that changes directions like most of us change socks.

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I appreciate the efforts of CBD, but those guys have gotten worse with the blind positivity. Tough being anything but that when you work in the same building as those guys...

If I had to grade them, it would be a B.

Resigning Mack I give a B+. The money was a lot, but he's one of the best at his position and it keeps stability on the OL. The Steelers just signed their guy for more, and they're known for smart moves, so I feel better about it after seeing them lock up their center.

If we had to cut DQ, I like that we went right after Dansby. Hopefully that pays off. I have a feeling MLB in Pettine's defense is a pretty low need.

Love the Whitner signing. People don't realize he's not that much older than TJ. I think he's a little better too. I know what that guy brings every game.

I don't know a lot of McQuistan other than he started a bunch of games in Seattle and he plays guard, but alas, I like that we signed a guard. I was never a big Lava fan.

Cutting Brandon Weeden - A+

Cutting Greg Little - A+

I don't know about any of these WR signs, because Burleson is old, hurt, and wasn't that great to begin with, and it feels like forever since Miles Austin played. However, I do like the Hawkins deal, especially with Little gone, the underneath should be all his now.

I like the signing of Ben Tate because the contract should keep him motivated, and I always thought he was pretty decent in Houston. The injuries are a worry, but with Dion hopefully coming back 100% and the addition of West, he has support behind him.

I give the pick of Gilbert an A. It seemed like it was the guy they wanted all along. Farmer rolled the dice and got him cheaper, and with an extra pick next year which could easily be a top ten pick. I would have loved Watkins, but I don't think he's this guy we're going to regret not taking in 10 years. He's not Calvin Johnson or AJ Green, but he is really good.

Personally I loved the Manziel pick, but if I am being honest, it's tough to put a grade on a QB pick, because QB is the toughest position to project and translate from college to pro. I feel good about it, because we have a guy like Hoyer who can fill any gap that it may take to have JM ready. It's not fair to put a grade on the pick, but I love him as a prospect, and even more at 22.

LOVE the Bitonio pick. I think we went BPA, and we did it at a position of need. That one worked out perfectly. I really think this guy is going to be a rock on the OL.

I think some of these other guys have a shot at sticking around and being productive too. Desir, West, Kirksey all are probably going to see some time.

We can grade this all we want but we all know how this league works. It's unpredictable.

Terrance West is going to do a lot more than "Stick Around" this kid has star written all over him and I would not be surprised to him get the bulk of the carries after mid season ... JMHO

RBs come out of nowhere all the time.

Morris, with the Redskins, was what ... a 6th round pick? He was a top 10 rusher last year. Shanahan made him a star.

Look at last year's other rushing leaders:

LeSean McCoy was a late 2nd rounder.

Jamaal Charles was a 3rd rounder.

Frank Gore was a 3rd rounder.

Demarco Murray was a 3rd rounder.

Those are the former 3rd (or close) round picks who were top 10 in rushing last year.

Our recent 1st rounder, Trent Richardson, was roughly 45th in rushing last year.

I don't make bets on things I can't control.

I look at West and he just reminds me so much of a guy like Jerome Bettis. I am not saying that he is the Bus ...... but he has the same massive thighs, and power and strength, combined with surprising nimbleness and quickness. (though not outright speed) I think that he's going to be a nice piece, and I would not surprised at all if he is a starter, and a force at RB before the year is over. I can't wait to watch him run people over.

Add Terrell Davis to that, 6th round pick by the broncos and has two rings.. Not bad at all..

I don't think anyone is saying that any player should be handed a job..

No they're not. But some are evaluating certain players without having even seen them other than a few highlight reels from college.

Teams expect every draft pick to work out. The higher the pick the more impact they expect. They choose these players through their own evaluations. Some work out for the better some don't. But no one, not even the team drafting them, knows how they'll do until they get in the games.

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Don't you think that the best guy should be named the starter? They'll have competitions for the job. If Tate earns it then he should have it but he shouldn't have it handed to him because he was brought in as a free agent. I would say the same thing for any player, free agent or not, first round draft pick or not.

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Absolutely. And Tate's said that he understands that people are trying to get that job and he is going to have to work hard, as he's always done. He specifically said that getting complacent is how you lose your job.

But all I'm saying is, that I'd be surprised if Tate is not named the starter at the beginning of the season, and sees the bulk of reps at the beginning. I expect that depending on how much we use him, he will also see the bulk at the end (barring an injury).

I hope for the best from Terrance West, but I'm more excited about Tate. He's the one I expect bigger things from. No doubt about it. The guy's hungry, he's been waiting for this opportunity for awhile. I just hope he comes here and busts out the way that Michael Turner did when he came to the Falcons. It would take a lot of pressure off our QBs and offense in general.

The only thing I noticed, which made me nervous, while looking for stats about fumbles (comparing him to Ogbunaya who had two fumbles at the worst times last year), I noticed that Ben Tate seemed to fumble a lot. Four fumbles last season (rushing the ball) and then NFL.com showed a fumble in his receiving stats. So I don't know if that's 4 or 5 (if they're counting the one in his receiving stats in his rushing stats as well). Either way, it's a concern. 180 carries or so and 4 fumbles. That's like 1 every 45 or one every other game if we run him an average of 22 times a game (which would be optimal, means the offense isn't down by much, lol......)

So while West as a rookie needs to show he can reliably block and protect the football, Tate needs to show that he can protect the ball as well.


But Terrance West doesn't look as big as the Bus for me. He reminds me of a slower Jamal Lewis if anything. And that's not bad, Jamal was a great RB, powerful one cut guy with breakaway speed. I'd take Jamal, in his prime over anybody we've had since coming back. Heck, I'd take Jamal in 2007 over anyone since we've come back. But that's what I see, a guy who reminds me a bit of Jamal Lewis (size wise, one cut, runs forward with some power) without the breakaway speed Lewis had. And that's just based on what I've seen from videos. But it's hard to say because you're analyzing him against D2 talent, especially in the one on one situations (as I understand he also has D2 talent on his side, and these defenses do understand he's going to be getting a ton of carries).

My biggest thing is that I hope we have a good running back this year, be it Tate or West. But I'm definitely putting much more stock into what Ben Tate will do vs what Terrance West will do. At this point. Tate knows he'll have to work hard. He understands that where you were picked doesn't mean that much, after-all he got beat out by an UDFA in Houston. But I'd love to be surprised, and see that Terrance West is the next coming of Jamal Lewis or Jerome Bettis or any top-notch RB.

That's just it though, there's definitely a competition. But I would be surprised, barring injury, if West takes Tate's job at any point this season.

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But I don't see how someone having the opinion that the most likely starter will be Ben Tate as anything that doesn't have logic behind it.

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Yeah, that does use logic. We've seen what he can do. Now we just need him to duplicate it and stay off the injury list.

j/c

I don't view this as an either/or situation. It seems clear that the team will commit to the run game. Having Tate, West and whoever else will allow that commitment to be sustained even if the starter is nicked up or winded. Tate's contract, nor his experience preclude a significant role for West. In today's NFL West's draft position is in line with where backs are taken. Relying on draft position to gauge his value would be a miscalculation.

Conventional wisdom says that running backs usually have an easier transition to the league than other positions. The one thing both West and Crowell will have to demonstrate is blitz pickup. The running ability is of lessor concern.