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It's evening the discrimination. It's not adding to it.
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It's evening the discrimination. It's not adding to it.
You don't get rid of discrimination by creating a policy where those who had historically been discriminated against get to discriminate back...
yebat' Putin
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Yes, I realize that. My point is that you should pick the best person, regardless of their ethnicity.
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But white males aren't being discriminated against. They've reaped the rewards from discrimination, finally some grew a soul and realized that they had to help the ones they crushed up.
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First of all, my family came to this country in 1848 and moved to Ohio. We had no part in slavery. My family also had no part in Jim Crow laws, as those started in the south. I have never gone out of my way to keep the minorities down. I should therefore be completely excluded from any type of AA, as neither I nor my family have ever been a part of the discrimination in this country.
I personally don't care what color a person is, but how they act towards others.
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I have to go against AA. It is discrimination and a barrier to treating everyone equally. I could see giving some consideration to students from the worse-rated school districts, all races included.
I live near some Indian Reservations, and I sympathize with those that were wronged a century ago, but they get all sorts of special rights. Hunting, fishing, casino, land use. They can even refuse to extradite their criminals for crimes committed outside of the Reservation. But they have no problem asking Uncle Sam for roads and projects.
Again, no problem helping those elders that were subject to atrocity. But those that were born in the modern era, why do they get special rights because of their race?
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j/c I love it when Sarah Palin opens up her mouth and monkey's come flying out. Makes my day. What a maroon. 
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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That's the problem with AA. People think that only Jim Crow laws and Slavery was racist. Your family were not racists, but did prosper due to racist systems.
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That's the problem with AA. People think that only Jim Crow laws and Slavery was racist. Your family were not racists, but did prosper due to racist systems.
My family prospered due to hard work and perserverance. Yours might not have, but mine sure as hell did. I've held a job since I was 13 and gotten where I am on my own merits and hard work.
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Has anyone in your family ever taken a loan in the 160 or so years you've been here? If so, you've gotten better treatment than all minorities.
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Has anyone in your family ever taken a loan in the 160 or so years you've been here? If so, you've gotten better treatment than all minorities.
I understand your argument that minorities deserve the same treatment when doing things like applying for a loan.. so unless you are arguing that his treatment should have been worse, to match theirs, then he did not benefit from discrimination... the minorities who could not get a loan or got worse terms were discriminated against, but he did not benefit from their discrimination.
I will give you this because I see where you are going and you are right to a point... 80 years ago if his grandfather walked into a factory or a shop looking for a job, he had the benefit of being white and being able to apply and get consideration for jobs that blacks couldn't. Then he had the ability make more money, get promotions, have access to better education for his kids, etc.. Consequently his grandfather was able to do better financially, therefore his father had better opportunities to succeed and on down the family tree.. I get that and it's a very legitimate point.
yebat' Putin
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Has anyone in your family ever taken a loan in the 160 or so years you've been here? If so, you've gotten better treatment than all minorities.
So what you are telling me, I am guilty by association, and I should be punished just because I happen to be white? Did you ever figure that most blacks, being of low income for most of the history of this country since the end of the Civil War, have been in lower paying jobs, and therefore, have been a higher risk? You do know that most of those foreclosed homes that caused the market crash were made to people who couldn't afford to pay them back due to government interference? Banks loan on ability to pay more than they will on color. I'm sure if a black person was able to prove their ability to pay, a true businessman in the bank would have given a loan. I should not be punished by an unfair system that was set up to attone for the guilt of previous generations, especially when my family was not involved. That would be like demanding reparations from the tax money I pay. I had nothing to do with it. My family had nothing to do with it. We can't help that other's created the problem, and continue the problem, when the best way to fix it is to treat everyone fairly, not set up an unfair system as a means of payback.
By the way, I used to live near a rich black neighborhood. Very nice houses, all blacks in the neighborhood, and it was an old neighborhood. Did they get preferential treatment, or were they able to prove they could pay back money for their housing loans?
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No one is discriminating against you. They never will. Ever. Your entire life no one will ever discriminate against you. Please stop with your faulty associations. I don't get why you're acting like racism never ever happened ever. You're being ridiculous. But finally, no one is punishing you because you're white. You're just not getting the preferential treatment you THINK you deserve because you're white.
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Erik, I see your point but I see his as well.. generational success is like a relay race where each generation passes the baton (whatever they accomplished) over to the next generation... Your ancestors 160 years ago were given a 10 mile head start on almost all black families just because they were white because they had access to better education, better jobs, better everything.... Whether your family members were racist or not is fairly irrelevant, they benefited from things totally outside their control and they took advantage of those benefits, probably without even thinking about it. Some black families have been able to close that gap and succeed beyond your family but on average minority families are still playing catch up.
I would say that a black guy born today and a white guy born today, if they are born into approximately equal socioeconomic families have as good a chance at an equal outcome as any generation in history, but on average, white kids are born into higher socioeconomic families than are black kids because of previous generations...
yebat' Putin
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So what you are telling me, I am guilty by association, and I should be punished just because I happen to be white? Did you ever figure that most blacks, being of low income for most of the history of this country since the end of the Civil War, have been in lower paying jobs, and therefore, have been a higher risk? You do know that most of those foreclosed homes that caused the market crash were made to people who couldn't afford to pay them back due to government interference? Banks loan on ability to pay more than they will on color. I'm sure if a black person was able to prove their ability to pay, a true businessman in the bank would have given a loan. I should not be punished by an unfair system that was set up to attone for the guilt of previous generations, especially when my family was not involved. That would be like demanding reparations from the tax money I pay. I had nothing to do with it. My family had nothing to do with it. We can't help that other's created the problem, and continue the problem, when the best way to fix it is to treat everyone fairly, not set up an unfair system as a means of payback.
By the way, I used to live near a rich black neighborhood. Very nice houses, all blacks in the neighborhood, and it was an old neighborhood. Did they get preferential treatment, or were they able to prove they could pay back money for their housing loans?
I'm sorry you've been punished for being white. I've never experienced that and there's not a guilty bone in body about it, in spite of the trend to say those who speak about race issues suffer from white guilt.
I know most blacks have been in lower paying jobs since the Civil War but I'm not silly enough or unread to the point I believe they chose this.
I do know the other side of the foreclosure story and over extended loans. Banks, loan officers, Wall Street all pushed loans knowing they'd be safe while they made a profit.
There's also ample proof of banks denying minorities loans. In the fifties banks were advised not to provide blacks loans under the GI Bill.
Of course again I apologize, I suppose, for all the punishment you have endured due to being white, but the best way to fix these things is to not deny it but to identify and repair the problem.
It may very well be time to stop Affirmative Action but it's impossible to deny that before AA white guys ruled the country's businesses. Of course there are exceptions.
The fact that there are well kept black neighborhoods really has nothing to do with the fact that this country has race issues. There's been improvements, but it's not over.
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The race card being played in this thread is disgusting. I am so sick of minorities walking through life with their hands out wanting freebees. Or screaming racism when they apply for a job they aren't qualified for.
I am a female. There is well established gender discrimination and a pay gap in the workplace, yet you don't hear me complaining about it in every single thread.
People should work to improve themselves, period. Without excuses. Period.
I quit my biased job and started my own company and make 2-3x as much on my own.
Minorities are no different. Instead of moaning about something unfair do something for yourself. I am a white girl living in a black neighborhood. My 10 year old black neighbor has no problem coming to my house and asking to mow the lawn or rake the leaves. That kid will make something of himself someday, not because he claims racism and walks around with his hand out, but because he is an enterprising self starter.
You are what you make of yourself in this life. Are you a complainer or a do-er?
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No one is discriminating against you. They never will. Ever. Your entire life no one will ever discriminate against you.
Is that sarcasm? In all likelihood, he won't face as much racial discrimination as a person of color. But other races discriminate too.
There are business owners of color, HR reps, managers, professors of color. Some of them discriminate or favor their own race, just like some whites do.
Discrimination isn't something that is confined to white, straight, men. We are all equal, so it can occur in any group.
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That's all good, but there are documented cases of discrimination still happening. The situation of poverty and race are intertwined and I believe, like you, that there are many who are willing to work hard.
I'm also sure there are as many white folk walking around with their hands out also. A lot of them could buy hundreds of companies like yours with what they have in their pockets, but nobody's pointing at them and blaming them for getting govt. bucks.
The idea is to stop being so defensive. It's not about you or anybody. It's about a system, which many have admitted, was created in past generations. Some of those conditions have been solved and some still exist. Nobody's blaming anybody, but it is something that should be recognized and dealt with, without all the defensive, "I didn't do anything. Why are you blaming me?" stuff.
As far as screaming racism and playing the race card it's equally apparent that many are playing their own race cards complaining about other's complaints, when those complaints really don't affect their lives at all.
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No one is discriminating against you. They never will. Ever. Your entire life no one will ever discriminate against you. Please stop with your faulty associations. I don't get why you're acting like racism never ever happened ever. You're being ridiculous. But finally, no one is punishing you because you're white. You're just not getting the preferential treatment you THINK you deserve because you're white.
Wow, really? And you tried to insinuate I was a fool, then shoot off your mouth about something you know nothing about.
I have been passed over for a promotion because the company had to make their AA quota. I was told that by management. I was refused a volunteer coaching position for youth football, as the black head coach preferred black assistant coaches. I was always at the field watching my kid, the black DL coach was never there. I had coached kids before, and I had lots of positive feedback on the job I did. I don't ask for any preferential treatment. I want everyone to be treated the same, as MLK said, by the content of their character. I'll compete with anyone of any color, and I'll accept that someone might be better than me at certain job. I just don't like racially discriminatory people, no matter their color. And you say I'm being ridiculous.
In my life I have worked for/with men, women, gay, straight, white, black, Asian, Indian, African, Haitian, Peruvian, Brazilian, Mexicans, Russians, Thai, etc., etc., etc. I don't care what their ethnicity is, and neither should anyone else. People in the work place should be judged by their skills, work ethic, and business acumen, not by their color or ethnicity. In other words, equal opportunity.
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I didn't insinuate you were a fool at all. That is a continued projection you're doing.
So you got told twice that you got shot down because you weren't black and you think you're being discriminated against?
I'm all for equal opportunity and equal competition. While the U.S. has yet to get there affirmative action is getting us close.
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So you got told twice that you got shot down because you weren't black and you think you're being discriminated against?
Isn't that discrimination?
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I'm all for equal opportunity and equal competition. While the U.S. has yet to get there affirmative action is getting us close.
The only way we will get there is to remove the racial barriers, like affirmative action, and let people stand on their own merits. There might have been a need for it at one time, but there isn't anymore. As I saw earlier in this thread, you will never get rid of discrimination by endorsing discrimination.
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I think the reasons you were told were to help you cope with your failures.
I would agree with you if there were still not job discrimination based on colour, still inequality in pay between colour, and still not housing discrimination. Until then it's clear that affirmative action is needed.
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I think the reasons you were told were to help you cope with your failures.
I would agree with you if there were still not job discrimination based on colour, still inequality in pay between colour, and still not housing discrimination. Until then it's clear that affirmative action is needed.
Once again, you speak of things you know nothing about. I trained the black guy they promoted over me, and he still came to me for job advice. I often fixed his mistakes. I don't even know why they promoted that guy, as there were better black candidates than him, if they had to meet a quota.
There will always be inequality in pay, jobs, and housing. When people are free to demand a price for their services, I might be able to negotiate a better deal than you do. Does that mean you should have your pay equal mine? No. There will always be job and housing discrimination, as there will always be prejudiced people. These matters should be moved to the courts, not mandated by the government.
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Well at first you said it was strictly do to affirmative action quotas and now you're saying "if" it had to do with quotas.
Yes, there will always be some differences, as there should as you mentioned, because of capitalism. However we shouldn't see these differences to be so large when it comes to races and gender. What exactly do you want or think the courts can do about this? What do you think Donald Sterling should get because he was evicting minorities from his unit because he was racist?
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Well at first you said it was strictly do to affirmative action quotas and now you're saying "if" it had to do with quotas.
I should have said "since" instead of "if". Colloquialism. They did fill the job with a minority to meet a quota, but there were better minority candidates.
Sterling should have gotten sued, like he did. I do believe he lost too. The plaintiffs were able to prove racial discrimination. The actual question is why didn't the NBA sanction this guy before, as he'd been doing it for years, and why did the NAACP give him a lifetime achievement award already, and were ready to give him another one?
Now, if you had property to rent, and your choices were a white family that you truly believed would take care of your property, or a black family you truly believed would not take care of your property, would you want to be forced by the government to rent to the black family to meet a quota?
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Does suing someone give them a place to live?
I'll answer your hypothetical with my own because they both mean nothing in real world. If you were a lender would you lend money to the white family who you knew could never pay off this loan or would you you give it to the minority family that you hate who you knew could pay off the mortgage in 15 years?
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Actually, it does mean something as it proves my point. Quotas are wrong, because it forces people to hire, rent, or loan money to people they know they shouldn't. When it is your property you assume a risk when you rent. No one wants to rent to scumbags, no matter their color.
As for your hypothetical, the black family should sue, like the black family that lived across the street from me when I was a kid. They won their house in the suit, as the bank wouldn't give them a loan because they were black. They had the means to buy the house. They won a place to live in a discrimination lawsuit.
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Your hypothetical question is phrased like this that example is the norm, when it's not. That's the problem with your hypothetical question and why it's useless when not used as a talking point.
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I can't believe I missed this post. Would you happen to be white per chance?
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Your hypothetical question is phrased like this that example is the norm, when it's not. That's the problem with your hypothetical question and why it's useless when not used as a talking point.
You need to rewrite that first sentence in proper English so it makes sense. I don't see a problem with my hypothetical question. Are you afraid to answer that one? It's quite simple and to the point. Would you want to be forced to rent to people that you truly believe will not care for your property because of some quota set by the government?
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I have been passed over for a promotion because the company had to make their AA quota. I was told that by management.
I hope you didn't work there much longer!
One of the biggest failures to come out of the civil rights movement was enacting Affirmative Action as a way to integrate the workplace of America. The idea of quotas was born by the racist Nixon actually. Hire just enough blacks to show that you care about diversity. The private sector started it too but always just for show.
Bottom line, we do little to endear ourselves if we start hiring based on skin color and not on the candidate's talent. Bridging the talent gap starts at a young age in the home, and we still have a wide chasm to cross, but it's the only correct action to take.
#gmstrong
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I hope you didn't work there much longer!
It was one of the main reasons I went back to school to get a technical degree.
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The problem with your situation is that it's not the norm. 99.9% of the time that does not occur, but you're phrasing it like it occurs much more than that. It's quite clear what the answer is because you chose the question to only have one answer. Which is why it's not worthy of my time to answer it. It's a great talking point because if you don't understand how AA works then you'll answer it.
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If you were a lender would you lend money to the white family who you knew could never pay off this loan or would you you give it to the minority family that you hate who you knew could pay off the mortgage in 15 years?
The underwriter would approve the more qualified candidate. He/She would not even have access to racial data for either applicant.
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Quote:
Quote:
If you were a lender would you lend money to the white family who you knew could never pay off this loan or would you you give it to the minority family that you hate who you knew could pay off the mortgage in 15 years?
The underwriter would approve the more qualified candidate. He/She would not even have access to racial data for either applicant.
Even if it was an owner financing, with me being the owner, I would give the loan to the people I thought were going to pay me back. As I've said before, it's the true fool that looks at just ethnicity.
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Very true, but that doesn't change the fact that fools run the country.
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Very true, but that doesn't change the fact that fools run the country.
They do right now. Hopefully that will change with the next election.
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That's not to the extent I was talking about. Also, yes, I too hope the Republicans get voted out in the next election 
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That's not to the extent I was talking about. Also, yes, I too hope the Republicans get voted out in the next election
You must have missed that the democrats hold the administration, and 1/2 of congress. If we replace the rinos with true conservatives and stock the senate with conservatives, we'll see things turn around in a hurry. There are 90million+ people out of work. Lower taxes, cut regulations, and let business flourish on it's own, and we'll see a much improved country.
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Things are turning around despite Republican efforts
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