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He registered a 4.54 second 40 time, I wouldn't classify that as slow. Yes, higher than most backs, but his speed is the least of my concerns. As you said, he's a one cut bulldozer. I still think he can be lethal if given daylight and chances to burst up into the secondary.
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His combine time in the 40 was 4.54 if that's of any help to anyone. West's 40-yard dash time, of 4.54 seconds, was plenty fast for a running back with his size and power (5-foot-9, 225 pounds) who plays with a violent streak able to prosper despite initiating contact. Congratulatory messages from NFL scouts -- some who doubted the youngster had legit 4.5 speed -- kept coming in as West awaited his flight home (one team actually had him clocked as fast as 4.48). When the flight landed, West, 23, who grew up without male role models and from the most modest of means in the drug-ravaged streets made famous by the TV series "The Wire," was returning instead to a nouveau-hip neighborhood, Harbor East, a destination spot on the other side of the city, where he is moving into a luxury condo. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jaso...ll-beating-oddsIt's actually a very good article about West for anyone interested.
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I suppose I could simplify my concern to make more sense for you. Just because I compared West's production to another man doesn't immediately negate that the entire post is about West. I'm not even sure how you could think that.
Because you only compared what West did in a negative way with Isaiah Crowell. Everything you stated was an attempt to diminish what Terrence West accomplished.
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I was not lobbying for one person. I am using features of two prospects to determine if those features are judged properly. The general consensus says West dominated a lesser competition and his large cumulative numbers are a major factor in projecting his value as a player in the NFL. You agree with this, no?
I agree that you weren't lobbying for one person. You were, it seems to me, actually lobbying AGAINST one. The only judgment that counted was the one that was made. Good, bad, or indifferent; the decision was made to draft Terrence West and Isaiah Crowell was picked up off the UDFA wire. As I said previously, I actually love Isaiah Crowell and what he's done. I like our acquisitions at the RB spot - all of them.
I would add that West may have been viewed as having a better overall game. His receiving gave picked up, but it could very well be part of what helped his case over Crowell for the Browns.
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The general consensus also says Crowell did not dominate lesser competition and other than legal issues it was the only reason he was not drafted high.
A minor point, but Crowell wasn't drafted at all. I don't know what factors went into the decision by all the teams to pass on him, but it's irrelevant. He was a good producer in college and he has some abilities to run the ball. I would guess that his fumbles might have dropped him a few pegs.
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When looking at those stats Crowell actually outperformed West by a small margin per touch. Yet West experts say his numbers were great and those same experts say Crowells were not. It doesn't add up. That is why West looking slow on tape is an issue to me. His numbers, that sell other people on him, mean nothing to me when he looks like he doesn't have the explosiveness to beat an NFL LB to a hole.
Are you looking at the body of work? Crowell averaged about 170 carries per season with 5.5 ypc. West had about 195 in his first two seasons but really took the load on in his final season and carried the rock more than 400 times and still toted it for 6.1 ypc. West averaged about 270 carries and 6.1 ypc for his college career. It is heavily weighted because of the final season, but that shows his ability and willingness to carry the burden.
I'm not saying that Crowell is a bad player, because he's not. He is more of a one-dimensional back than West. Maybe it was the scheme that they played that lowered his production numbers, but that hardly matters. I like Crowell a lot and I am not fretting having him in the backfield, competing for a job, one bit.
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The tale will be can West perfect the mental aspect of his craft. He will have to to be a starter in this league IMO with average ability. He does fit the mold of Morris. I hope I'm wrong.
I don't think you have to worry about West's ability to think about the game. He's certainly capable of doing the job. And, since you bring it up, that could be something that faces all of the Browns RBs. Although Ben Tate was brought in from Houston, I don't think that he should sit on his laurels and think that he's got the job won. If he doesn't get the starting nod, I hope that his ego doesn't shatter.
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His combine time in the 40 was 4.54 if that's of any help to anyone.
West's 40-yard dash time, of 4.54 seconds, was plenty fast for a running back with his size and power (5-foot-9, 225 pounds) who plays with a violent streak able to prosper despite initiating contact. Congratulatory messages from NFL scouts -- some who doubted the youngster had legit 4.5 speed -- kept coming in as West awaited his flight home (one team actually had him clocked as fast as 4.48). When the flight landed, West, 23, who grew up without male role models and from the most modest of means in the drug-ravaged streets made famous by the TV series "The Wire," was returning instead to a nouveau-hip neighborhood, Harbor East, a destination spot on the other side of the city, where he is moving into a luxury condo.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jaso...ll-beating-odds
It's actually a very good article about West for anyone interested.
Compared to our "speed back/change of pace back", Dion Lewis's 4.57, West should be just fine.
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some other combine speeds:
Dri Archer 4.26 ( fastest)
Bishop Sankey 4.49
Tre Mason 4.50
Isiah Crwoell 4.57
Carlos Hyde 4.66
2013
Knile Davis 4.37 ( fastest)
GiovaniNenard 4.53
Montee Ball 4.66
Le'Veon Bell 4.6
Mike James 4.53
Just to name a few, sorry 4.54 while not great, seems abut average.
Food for thought the difference between Dri Archer and West is .28 of a second...., for a100 yards that is 7/10 of a second. Or for 10 yards ( which is what is more liekly for a guy like West) .028 of a second, even if rounded up for quickness what are we talking about what 4 one hundreths of a second?
4.54 = 8.8 yards a second
4.26 = 9.4 yards second
= 1.068 % faster
or if he cracks the LOS and a player is 10 yards away from him it will take that player 22 yards to catch in a straight line and West will have gained 20 yards also in a straight line. I will take it.
So a 4.26 CB will run him down 2 1/3 seconds.
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Based on the merits of the arguments presented I agree with you about West. Some among us latch on quite comfortably to the numbers and you used them well to counter the argument that West is a suspect to under achieve.
I'm not so much a numbers guy but I look at the traits I see when he is carrying the ball. West has exceptional patience and his vision and decision making are also above average. He may not be a blazer but his instincts for setting up blocks is quite good. He really seems to be able to use angles well. His feet are quick and he displays the ability to shorten or lengthen his gate as the situation calls for.
I know it was only video clips but in space he doesn't seem to get caught from behind regularly. Put all that together and I'm glad that mix of skills is in Cleveland.
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Quote:
Based on the merits of the arguments presented I agree with you about West. Some among us latch on quite comfortably to the numbers and you used them well to counter the argument that West is a suspect to under achieve.
I'm not so much a numbers guy but I look at the traits I see when he is carrying the ball. West has exceptional patience and his vision and decision making are also above average. He may not be a blazer but his instincts for setting up blocks is quite good. He really seems to be able to use angles well. His feet are quick and he displays the ability to shorten or lengthen his gate as the situation calls for.
I know it was only video clips but in space he doesn't seem to get caught from behind regularly. Put all that together and I'm glad that mix of skills is in Cleveland.
In the open field, not many RBs are going to get caught from behind every time. It depends on down field blocking or the ability to juke defenders. Like you stated, he has very good vision, the antithesis of Trent Richardson.
I actually love the RBs we have and I don't think that any of our QBs will be asked to carry the team on their backs. A running game is the easiest way to achieve this. It's the most basic element of an offense and it will allow time for less experienced players at QB (like Manziel and Shaw) ease into the position. I like that very much. It appeared that what Holmgren & Heckert had in mind when they selected Richardson & Weeden. That turned out to be a disaster though.
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Based on the merits of the arguments presented I agree with you about West. Some among us latch on quite comfortably to the numbers and you used them well to counter the argument that West is a suspect to under achieve.
I'm not so much a numbers guy but I look at the traits I see when he is carrying the ball. West has exceptional patience and his vision and decision making are also above average. He may not be a blazer but his instincts for setting up blocks is quite good. He really seems to be able to use angles well. His feet are quick and he displays the ability to shorten or lengthen his gate as the situation calls for.
I know it was only video clips but in space he doesn't seem to get caught from behind regularly. Put all that together and I'm glad that mix of skills is in Cleveland.
In the open field, not many RBs are going to get caught from behind every time. It depends on down field blocking or the ability to juke defenders. Like you stated, he has very good vision, the antithesis of Trent Richardson.
I actually love the RBs we have and I don't think that any of our QBs will be asked to carry the team on their backs. A running game is the easiest way to achieve this. It's the most basic element of an offense and it will allow time for less experienced players at QB (like Manziel and Shaw) ease into the position. I like that very much. It appeared that what Holmgren & Heckert had in mind when they selected Richardson & Weeden. That turned out to be a disaster though.
Not agreeing, not disagreeing. All I'm saying is 40 times mean as much, in football, as how fast your hair grows in cosmetology.
Angles are important, no doubt. But a back that runs a 4.9 40 is still - in the open field, going to make big yards even if that 4.3 40 guy is chasing him. Angles. Straight out chase? Heck, that means a back has a guy chasing him. That means everyone did their job. Take 40 times, stuff them where the sun doesn't shine, and learn to evaluate talent - not speed.
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Speed is not the only consideration for a running back.
Ability to evade, ability to stay on your feet, and ability to break through a tackle are important as well, perhaps more important than speed.
Eric Metcalf had speed, but was not a great running back. He could not break a paper bag if it was trying to tackle him.
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Speed is not the only consideration for a running back.
Ability to evade, ability to stay on your feet, and ability to break through a tackle are important as well, perhaps more important than speed.
Eric Metcalf had speed, but was not a great running back. He could not break a paper bag if it was trying to tackle him.
Agreed.
i was trying to show in the real world how little .28 really means. Too often we put such an onus on one stat, 40 speed for example, or how hard a QB can throw... etc etc.
In this discussion straight line foot speed was the subject.
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Quote:
Quote:
Speed is not the only consideration for a running back.
Ability to evade, ability to stay on your feet, and ability to break through a tackle are important as well, perhaps more important than speed.
Eric Metcalf had speed, but was not a great running back. He could not break a paper bag if it was trying to tackle him.
Agreed.
i was trying to show in the real world how little .28 really means. Too often we put such an onus on one stat, 40 speed for example, or how hard a QB can throw... etc etc.
In this discussion straight line foot speed was the subject.
I agree and have said the same thing many times. I don't have a real big problem if my back gets caught from behind, 20-30 yards past the LOS.
Along the same lines, I think quickness is more important then top end speed. Give me the guy who gains the first 10 yards the soonest. That is the guy who is going to get to the second level the most, and once you get there, chances are good you can rumble for a while.
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Along the same lines, I think quickness is more important then top end speed. Give me the guy who gains the first 10 yards the soonest. That is the guy who is going to get to the second level the most, and once you get there, chances are good you can rumble for a while.
Agreed. 40 is a measurable, but it doesn't show acceleration and quickness. That's why Dion Lewis can have whatever 40 time he had and still be a viable KR/PR (as can many other returners). Now some guys have great top end speed to go with quickness, like Chris Johnson. But quickness is the first and most important thing
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Wow, my comment caused this much debate. Well, To be honest, I do not care about 40 times with running backs. All I really want to know are 20 times. Not many runs are over 20 yards and of those, once you're at 20, you're usually in the open field so how fast you get from 20-40 is of little consequence.
I was saying that he looks slow on tape. In and out of his cuts, slow to get to top speed, against poor opposition.
Anyone know his 20 time?
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Anyone know his 20 time?
20 yard - 2.63
10 yard - 1.61
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1829652/terrance-west
To compare this according to CBS - Bishop Sankey had 2.51, Carlos Hyde 2.75 (while Hyde's 40 was 4.61)
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It's not bad either, I guess we'll have to see. For reference CJ Spiller was 20: 2.41 and 10: 1.48
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They don't record 20 yard splits, but they do have 10 yards splits. His 10 yard split was 1.59 which is rather average.
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It's not bad either, I guess we'll have to see. For reference CJ Spiller was 20: 2.41 and 10: 1.48
For reference, Adrian Peterson's 20-yard time was 2.58 seconds and his 10-yard time was 1.53 seconds.
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The reference you offered was an apple to orange comparison. I couldn't find your split numbers for Spiller but I did find his height and weight at the time of the combine. He was 5'11" and 196 LBS. He was then and remains now a speed back. West is obviously a power back.
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I would not look forward to tackling this guy over and over during a game. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I wouldn't want to tackle this guy all game either.... 
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While the picture never tells the whole story, that picture, combined with West's productivity in college. make me feel rather intrigued by his potential. (I know, a "bad word")
Combined with Shanahan's ability to get the best out of RBs, he looks like he could be a real weapon.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Hope springs eternal my man. Hopefully he is our new shiny version of Jamal Lewis or Marshawn Lynch and not another in a long line of Tommy Vardel and Trent Richardson.
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I think that he's going to be our "Bus".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I really don't see that comparison. They're the same height, but Bettis was 25 lbs heavier. I do think he's a bigger back, but I don't think he'll have the same type of shear "bowling ball" factor to him that Bettis had.
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I look at his build, and Bettis was massive in his lower body. So is West. I don't think that he is going to be an "easy tackle", who will go down on 1st contact.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Alfred Morris is probably the most relevant comparison for West.
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Alfred Morris is probably the most relevant comparison for West.
Let's hope so, considering the OC.
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Yeah he looks like a monster. Thick. I'd not want to tackle him at all. Not even once. To be honest, unless I had a running start and I blind sided him/total surprise hit - not sure I could tackle him lol!!!!!!!!!  I think him and Tate and their "style" of physical play is going to wreak extreme amounts of havoc on defenses. Come 4th quarter, we will see who has the heart and who has the guts!
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With your back you wouldn't look forward to tackling me over and over, and you can time me with a sun dial 
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With your back you wouldn't look forward to tackling me over and over, and you can time me with a sun dial
That's true. I'd need to use my minivan for my tackling machine. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Scary pic! Looks like a load to bring down. Like his chances one on one in the secondary all day. What an interesting weapon here. Been awhile since we could line up, everybody knows where it is going, and we will run it there anyhow, just to see if you can stop it. Here it comes! These two guys could be the answer to short yardage and red zone prayers. Hope he gets it done.   
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 Browns select Terrance West with
the 94th overall pick
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