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It will take awhile for JM to get up to nfl football speed. He won't be going against teams with one or two good d players, he will be going up against a d that is the top of the food chain. They as a team will be faster and meaner than a college team and with Hoyer starting, he can get up to speed, know the playbook inside and out and then he can play. Throw him to the wolves in this league and he will get eaten alive. He cant outrun most of the d players in the nfl and most likely no starting line backer. Give JM a little time to get use to the speed and the attitude of an nfl team. Pukesburg is first, orleans is 2nd and follow that up with Buttbore.Whew Tough ass d's all the way around.
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Browns take steps to limit access In an effort to control the frenzy following the drafting of Johnny Manziel, the Cleveland Browns will limit media coverage to this weekend's rookie minicamp and other offseason activities. Zak Gilbert, the team's director of communications, said media coverage for Saturday and Sunday's rookie minicamp would be limited to regulars from the local Cleveland media and perhaps a few national writers. In addition, anyone wishing to cover an offseason practice or minicamp must let the team know no later than 48 hours before the event. The team wants to avoid a media circus, with satellite trucks and entertainment networks broadcasting from team headquarters. There will be no live video of the rookie minicamp. "We know it will bring a lot of attention," coach Mike Pettine said of Manziel on Monday. "We'll be in the business of controlling what we can control." The media that regularly covers the team will be given usual access, but people like Bart Hubbuch of the New York Post -- a former Browns beat writer -- was not credentialed and advised not to journey to Cleveland, according to Hubbuck's Twitter feed. "If the Browns didn't want the Johnny Manziel circus, THEN WHY DRAFT THE GUY?" Hubbuch tweeted. The NFL's Media Policy covers veteran minicamp only and states that all daily activities for a mandatory veteran minicamp "must be open in their entirety to local media." One of three OTAs (Organized Team Activity) must be open, though the team is allowed to limit videotaping or photography during parts of those sessions. Decisions related to rookie minicamps are at the discretion of the team. Gilbert acknowledged that training camp will be different. Because practices are open to the public, more than just local media will be given access. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/109276...=espnapi_public
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Rome is a clown. And, I say that with respect because he knows he is a clown and he has built and empire on it. He's incredibly smart and knows how to twist words to build up the furor which drives page clicks online (and people to listen to him on the radio/tv).
Anyway, I am surprised anyone cares about the quote. The same thing was said for pretty much every 1st round pick we have had. Brady Quinn, Braylon Edwards, etc. You are a backup, low man on the depth chart and will have the work your way up it during camp. You aren't in college anymore Toto.
If they don't like "Hollywood",then don't draft "Hollywood",or let "Hollywood" make a movie about you.Further more,don't accept all that "Hollywood" money coming in for season tickets and jersey's sales either.
Chris, what are you talking about? Are you still baggin on the Browns over what Pettine told Manziel?
Yeah,it's everywhere in the media right now.I live in SF,and even my local hosts are talking about this.The talking points for the Browns have been,Jimmy's investigation,firing the whole staff and FO,Gordon's possible suspension...and I'll tell you something.The first time the whole country was talking about us in a POSITIVE light,was our 1st draft day.How about just saying.."Welcome to the team" and leaving it at that?
and, it means nothing. really, it doesn't mean anything. it is not a positive, it is not a negative. it is nothing.
now, barring the national media from our rookie mini-camp, that is a positive. we didn't draft Manziel for "hollywood" we drafted him to win football games. I think they are handling things just fine.
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jc
I like this. Brandon Weeden didn;t have HALF the "vibe" as J. Football, and he was just given the job and I bet as soon as he was drafted. He continued to keep it too, while not deserving, earning or showing any reason why.
It "needs" to be true competition at the QB. If JM is the starter, I hope it's because he played and showed all the other intangibles better or more than Hoyer. Bottom line. Nothing given, everything earned. Chud the Dud needs to learn this motto if he's ever given another coaching gig (doubtfully IMO).
All JMO
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"If the Browns didn't want the Johnny Manziel circus, THEN WHY DRAFT THE GUY?" Hubbuch tweeted.
I distinctly remember hearing, "With the 22nd pick of the 2014 NFL draft, the Cleveland Browns select, Johnny Manziel, quarterback, Texas A&M"
At no point did I hear, "With another pick, the Browns select Bart Hubbuch, Reporter and Digital Media Specialist, New York Post to report on Manziel"
Run along Bart, I hear there is a gay football player in St. Louis, go report on him.
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it's those intangibles , the heart, the balls, the desire to win that will set him apart
This is the NFL, not Rudy.
I heard the same stuff about Tebow and Colt McCoy - intangibles, the will to win, special, toughness, heart, desire, etc.
It's the type of stuff that you talk about when, on paper, the player's odds of success at the next level are on the low end.
Why didn't their heart and balls and desire to win set them apart?
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Rome is a clown. And, I say that with respect because he knows he is a clown and he has built and empire on it. He's incredibly smart and knows how to twist words to build up the furor which drives page clicks online (and people to listen to him on the radio/tv).
Anyway, I am surprised anyone cares about the quote. The same thing was said for pretty much every 1st round pick we have had. Brady Quinn, Braylon Edwards, etc. You are a backup, low man on the depth chart and will have the work your way up it during camp. You aren't in college anymore Toto.
If they don't like "Hollywood",then don't draft "Hollywood",or let "Hollywood" make a movie about you.Further more,don't accept all that "Hollywood" money coming in for season tickets and jersey's sales either.
Chris, what are you talking about? Are you still baggin on the Browns over what Pettine told Manziel?
Yeah,it's everywhere in the media right now.I live in SF,and even my local hosts are talking about this.The talking points for the Browns have been,Jimmy's investigation,firing the whole staff and FO,Gordon's possible suspension...and I'll tell you something.The first time the whole country was talking about us in a POSITIVE light,was our 1st draft day.How about just saying.."Welcome to the team" and leaving it at that?
I think the info you have is incomplete. I posted a link to a audio interview. Haslam never said those things the way it was portrayed in the press. He merely said that when Johnny was in town last Friday, Pettine told him a few things about being the back up, learning and this isn't hollywood.
Haslam didn't tell him anything like that. Pettine did and he said it directly to Manziel
I don't know what the problem is.. You in Frisco,, Tell those damn fools to listen to the audio.. that will shut them up..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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All I know is, if he thinks he can throw it up for grabs to Burleson and Benjamin, he will throw a ton of INTs.
Maybe the plan was to pick Evans at 9, keeping the combo intact, but I have to laugh at the sect-like follwoing too.
Who were the last guys around here that had that kind of devout following? McCoy? Mangini? Tebow? How do you like that list? 
In fairness, I bet that almost every superstar type QB has that kind of following that shows up with his new team.
I bet RG3 fans showed up on the Redskins boards .... and Luck fans went gaga for the Colts. I know for a fact that when Debartolo bought the 49ers way back when, many people in Youngstown became 49er sycophants.
I'm sure it happens with a lot of players, especially QBs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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it's those intangibles , the heart, the balls, the desire to win that will set him apart
This is the NFL, not Rudy.
I heard the same stuff about Tebow and Colt McCoy - intangibles, the will to win, special, toughness, heart, desire, etc.
It's the type of stuff that you talk about when, on paper, the player's odds of success at the next level are on the low end.
Why didn't their heart and balls and desire to win set them apart?
Rudy... that's a good one, unfortunately those kind of dismissive statements cheapen the discussion. regardless....
Yes McCoy et al had heart and desires.... ALL QB's do.... to say because they had those attributes and did not succeed means JM will not succeed is flawed logic... I could say the same thing about Weeden vs Eli Manning... both are big, strong armed , not very mobile QB's so by logic if Eli is good then BW will be also. See the set / subset of logic does not hold.
Maybe JM has more of those attributes than those you noted, maybe there in a more conducive mix to allow him to succeed, maybe those attributes are but one part of the whole picture and actually he has more mobility, stronger arm, is smarter, is tougher than those on your your list. Maybe he is just flat out better than them. Or maybe ,even, he will fail... results will tell.
You are correct though there is no tangible way to prove intangibles and those intangibles are not a guaranty of success, but right now at this very moment there is no tangible thing good or bad that we can hang out hats on.
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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Rudy... that's a good one, unfortunately those kind of dismissive statements cheapen the discussion.
The discussion was already cheapened with buzzwords like special, heart, desire, etc.
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to say because they had those attributes and did not succeed means JM will not succeed is flawed logic
That's not the point I was trying to make.
What I was saying is that if those are the go-to descriptors for a prospect, you will almost always find that that prospect is flawed, and has low odds of success. Otherwise, you'd be talking about more tangible traits.
For example:
Manziel had trouble staying the pocket in college. He could make throws from the pocket, and do it well, but he was often skittish and quick to dart out. With one of the best offensive lines in the NCAA. What leads one to believe those habits won't follow him, and become pronouncedly worse?
Desire? Heart? Balls? Being special?
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Yes McCoy et al had heart and desires.... ALL QB's do
Kind of my point, as well.
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but right now at this very moment there is no tangible thing good or bad that we can hang out hats on.
That doesn't bother you?
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#gmstrong
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Who's the babe?
Jane Cleveland.
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Your squeeze then, I assume? 
#gmstrong
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"I like'em round, thick and juuuuicy-"
Sir Mixalot, 1993
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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"I like 'em slim and trim, with a cute little booty." Ytown. 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984 ...... 2014 ....... 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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"I like 'em slim and trim, with a cute little booty."
Ytown. 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984 ...... 2014 .......
Me too. Nonfat, like yogurt.
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This is the NFL, not Rudy.
Oh, just wait...
Johnny.........Johnny.........Johnny!.......Johnny!...Johnny!..Johnny! Johnny! JOHNNY! JOHNNY! JOHNNY! JOHNNY! JOHNNY!!!!!!!!! JOHNNY!!!!!!!!!!
"WHO'S THE WILD MAN, NOW!?!?!?!?"
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Who's the babe?
Jane Cleveland.
Jane? Naw. I'm thinkin' more like Lakisha. 
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For example:
Manziel had trouble staying the pocket in college. He could make throws from the pocket, and do it well, but he was often skittish and quick to dart out. With one of the best offensive lines in the NCAA. What leads one to believe those habits won't follow him, and become pronouncedly worse?
He extends plays, he's very accurate throwing on the run.. he has other positive attributes.. And why would it get pronouncedly worse? Are you worried that Bridgewater is going to become less accurate? or that Bortles is going to start throwing left handed? or that Carr is going to lose an eye in a freak smores accident? No team has ever drafted a guy and thought, what if this bad habit he has gets worse.... that's why you have coaches. I mean if he gets any coaching at all, especially if he isn't the day 1 starter, his habits should improve, not get pronouncedly worse...
yebat' Putin
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"He extends plays" is just another way of saying he's undisciplined and goes with his gut, instead of the designed play. That crap won't fly in the much more disciplined NFL. There will be a 250 pound OLB or SS waiting for him if he does that who can't wait to get a clean, legal shot at a QB, especially as hyped up as Johnny is. They can't wait to stand over him and say "welcome to the NFL, kid".
I know that the escapability/running is a big part of his value and I don't want to take it away entirely and him to be a pure pocket QB, because I think he'd fail at that, but he has to get a lot smarter with his improvisations in the NFL. Hopefully he figures it out before a TJ Ward like player flattens him to the ground.
My biggest problem with Manziel though is that it takes away from one of our strengths, which is pass blocking. It's almost impossible to pass block cleanly for a QB like that. Roethlisberger isn't half the scrambler Johnny is and he still makes the Steelers OL look worse than they are. Pittsburgh has invested highly into OL upgrades but the end result is still the same, since Ben's game is still the same. Expect holding calls against us, but also roughing the passer for us, to rise.
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"He extends plays" is just another way of saying he's undisciplined and goes with his gut, instead of the designed play.
Roethlisberger has made a career out of that..
And Manziel is more mobile and elusive to counter not being as big as Ben..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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So playing the game with instincts is a bad thing? Come on man, we've had a ton of by the book stiffs with no instincts for the game roll through this town. Running when they shouldn't (McCoy), panicking in the pocket when they have time (McCoy and Quinn), not sensing pressure (Weeden). I could do that for days.
Also I love how you're acting like there weren't 250lb linebackers in the SEC....
We aren't going to run anything close to how Pitt runs their O, it's going to be a lot more of what you saw in DC, than Pitt. Not a good comparison.
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"He extends plays" is just another way of saying he's undisciplined and goes with his gut, instead of the designed play.
Roethlisberger has made a career out of that..
And Manziel is more mobile and elusive to counter not being as big as Ben..
So did Brett Favre
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Also I love how you're acting like there weren't 250lb linebackers in the SEC....
We aren't going to run anything close to how Pitt runs their O, it's going to be a lot more of what you saw in DC, than Pitt. Not a good comparison.
I believe if you wish to speak about something not being a good comparison, it's trying to compare SEC LB'ers to NFL LB'ers.
And the question is, can they get JFF to play within the structure that we saw in Washington last year. As we saw, that didn't work very well with a QB like RG3. When they let 'RG3 be RG3" we saw how that turned out as well.
For those even trying to compare the slight build of JFF to Favre and Big Ben, are you kidding me?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Sure, we don't run Pitt's Offense (though they run a ZBS too now under Haley), but my point in general was that a QB that tends to improvise and tries to prolong plays, makes an OL look worse. That, and the fact that thise types are pretty rare success stories in the league. How many "improvisational" QBs do you know that had a long career? Roethlisberger is always injured but is durable enough. He's twice the size of Manziel too to absorb those extra hits his style takes on. Vick and RG3 had good seasons, but have been up and down and in time the hits got to them.
Long story short, long term sample size has proven, that you make your money in the pocket in the NFL as a QB. The fact that the gambles and fails on those we took, has nothing to do with Manziel. Manziel needs compared to all those "running or improvisational" QBs that were in the NFL. What's their track record? Tebow, RG3, Vick, Pat White, Brooks, Kaepernick...who else?
#gmstrong
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Just for schnits and giggles, how many have been given the opportunity?
A lot of 'pocket' qbs have failed as well. Some pocket QBs have succeeding. This is because a lot more have been given the chance.
You only mentioned 6 'running or improvisational' QBs in the league. Kaps been to the NFC championship twice and superbowl one. RG3 killed it his rookie year before he got hurt. 33% of your list has had some decent success. And even though he's bigger, Big Ben does the same stuff and has had tremendous success.
What's the rate for you pocket QBs? How are Gabbert, Lockard, Weeden, Campbell, Losman, Quinn, etc looking?
It's not the style of play, it's if you can actually play the game or not in the NFL.
Wise words spoken by sages
From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
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It's not the style of play, it's if you can actually play the game or not in the NFL.
And remain standing upright.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Let Hoyer and Manziel battle it out in camp & preseason..
then the HC needs to make a decision.. not based on "what should be done".. not based on "great teams groom their qb's"... it needs to be based on who he thinks gives the Browns the best shot at winning.. and winning a lot.
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Let Hoyer and Manziel battle it out in camp & preseason..
then the HC needs to make a decision.. not based on "what should be done".. not based on "great teams groom their qb's"... it needs to be based on who he thinks gives the Browns the best shot at winning.. and winning a lot.
Agreed 100%
#gmstrong
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A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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When they let 'RG3 be RG3" we saw how that turned out as well.
9-6?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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When they let 'RG3 be RG3" we saw how that turned out as well.
9-6?
Is that what they call "crippled" these days?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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RG3 got hurt the EXACT same way Hoyer did.
By not sliding correctly..
Has nothing to do with being a "running QB" of which neither RG3 or JFF are...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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We will have a better oline with Botonio, we have a much better rb situation than last year and we have Kyle to run the O. JM or BH will have a much better time at QB than we've had since before 99. Big Ben had a great oline and running game with a great D when he started and he didn't do much as a QB. We can be just as successful as Pukesburg with our new oline and running game and of course a D that is getting better every year. JM just might survive intact if he learns from Kyle and Hoyer.
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With one of the best offensive lines in the NCAA.
I watched a lot of their games last year, not once did I come away with the impression that they had a good OL let alone one of the best. Left Tackle yes, without a doubt the other 4...ehhh
Just came away with a huh? after reading that. Don't know if that makes a dent in your point or not. Not my intention...just wondering where you got that from?
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Has nothing to do with being a "running QB" of which neither RG3 or JFF are...
In 2012 RG3 had 120 rushing attempts for 815 yards and 7 TD's in 15 games.
Now I don't care how you slice that, he ran a lot with the ball. If you're not running, you're not sliding.
In 2013 Johnny Football had 144 rushing attempts in 13 games for 759 yards rushing and 9TD's.
Now if you don't think that increases the odds of injury, that's fine. But I strongly disagree with that .But out of curiosity, how much more would a QB have to run with the ball before you would qualify them as a running QB?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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With one of the best offensive lines in the NCAA.
I watched a lot of their games last year, not once did I come away with the impression that they had a good OL let alone one of the best. Left Tackle yes, without a doubt the other 4...ehhh
Just came away with a huh? after reading that. Don't know if that makes a dent in your point or not. Not my intention...just wondering where you got that from?
JMHO
There were many articles written about how good their Oline was in 2012 & 2013. Many stating they have one of the best Olines in the country and the best in the SEC. I watched many games and I witnessed some of the best QB protection I've seen in college football. They passed alot more then most, maybe more then the rest, and I think the average sack total was less then one a game. Their oline was one of the best in the country IMO.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Manziel
Year - Pass At - Pass Yds - Pass TDs
2012 - 434 - 3,706 - 26
2013 - 429 - 4,114 - 37
Rush Att - Rush YDs - Rush TDs
2012 - 201 - 1,410 - 21
2013 - 144 - 759 - 19
Notice a trend?
A guy that runs it 10 times a game in a SPREAD OFFENSE, IMO is not a "running" QB..
Cam Newton, Colin Kaep.. To me, are running QBs.
Mike Vick in ATL vs Mike Vick in PHI are two completely different QBs.
Just because you can run the ball, doesn't mean you are a running QB.. How many of RG3s runs in 2012 were designed plays? To me theres a difference between a guy in a Read Option(Newton), a guy that gets a lot of Draws (Tebow), and a guy that scrambles (ATL Vick)
And JFF has shown the trend in his game is going down.
Last edited by ThatGuy; 05/14/14 03:52 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
I watched many games and I witnessed some of the best QB protection I've seen in college football.
I saw JM having to run for his life and not from bad decision but because of pressure. But then I'm getting old so maybe my memory is off.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 |
Quote:
Manziel
Year - Pass At - Pass Yds - Pass TDs
2012 - 434 - 3,706 - 26
2013 - 429 - 4,114 - 37
Rush Att - Rush YDs - Rush TDs
2012 - 201 - 1,410 - 21
2013 - 144 - 759 - 19
Notice a trend?
A guy that runs it 10 times a game in a SPREAD OFFENSE, IMO is not a "running" QB..
Cam Newton, Colin Kaep.. To me, are running QBs.
Mike Vick in ATL vs Mike Vick in PHI are two completely different QBs.
Just because you can run the ball, doesn't mean you are a running QB..
And JFF has shown the trend in his game is going down.
The progression from one year to the next was staggering. If he continues to progress at that rate he will be a star.
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