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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/21/ground-zero-cross/It appears that at least one judge has had enough of the one-sided actions to remove anything 'religious' simply because someone just doesn't 'like' it. You don't like prayer in school? Don't pray then...it doesn't mean that you should have the right to stop everyone else from doing so. You don't want to say God in the Pledge of Allegiance? Don't say God then...or just sit there...what about the many more who DO want to say the pledge? You don't like the ten commandments on the wall of the courthouse? Don't look at them then. I hope this judge sets a precedent to stop the BS.
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The biggest problem with that viewpoint is that it makes too much sense. The next biggest problem is that our society has become so fearful of offending even the smallest of the population that our traditional values have succumbed to even the mildest of pressure. Nothing good can be publicly said about God/Jesus while utter blasphemy against the Christian religion is fair game and publicly displayed on TV, the media, in cartoons, in print and in general. Freedom of religion. Not, freedom from religion. The first statement allows you to believe or not believe in whatever you want without persecution. The second puts up a blockade to keep Christianity oppressed. As a society and governmental state we have taken on the stance of the second statement, however, pretty much only as it pertains to the Christian religion in America. 83% of Americans identify themselves as Christians*, 13 percent have no religion and the 4% left over are controlling what Christians can and cannot do publicly in America. For example, four out of 100 people are offended by a publicly displayed nativity scene on Christian church property during the Christmas season, so it is outlawed. I'm not attempting to promote religion at all. I'm merely suggesting, as the judge in the article Willie posted, that common sense has been completely ignored in favor of taking away a constitutional freedom from the vast majority of Americans in favor of protecting a very small minority from being offended. *Statistics on percentage of American Christians
#gmstrong
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It seems as though our country has chosen who to offend and who not to. My children are grown, but I would be hard pressed today to teach my children to respect the legal process. In the end, it's the courts who make the final decision on such matters. And it seems to me that Christians seem to have been selected as a target of whose rights you can step on to protect the rights of everyone else.
While one side never forces anyone to pray, the other side prevents people from it. To me, there's something very wrong about that.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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 Don't like the name Redskins, don't go to their game and buy their gear. don't like the name Indians, don't go to the games and buy their gear. Same logic holds.. Why are the "FEW" allowed to dictate to the "MANY"? Well, in our PC world, that's what gets politicians elected.. so there is your answer. IMO
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
You don't like the ten commandments on the wall of the courthouse? Don't look at them then.
The Ten Commandments outside the courthouse have always baffled me.
How many of them are part of the actual law observed by said court? Three?
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There's no problem with praying, displaying the ten commandments or similar religious symbols. The issues pop up when it appears that the government officially endorses a religion. The government cannot officially endorse Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or other religions as stated by the structure of our government system. Equal opportunity needs to be given for other religious entities to display their rules, symbols, and other items the the sphere of public influence. And as for "it's tradition/we're a Christian nation" argument...go ahead and read this from the Treaty of Tripoli. The f looking letters are actually an s. The final end to the debate on "christian nation": 
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I actually agree w/the message in the original post, but man, you really should stop trying to make analogies and comparisons. I don't even like you, but I actually feel bad w/how you are embarrassing yourself.
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I am an Atheist. I usually do not express my true views on religion on this board to keep from offending others. AND I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.
Those who get offended over religious words or items in public locations seriously have too much time on their hands.
There is not much that can offend me. My whole family is religious with the exceptions of my late father, myself and my younger brother. I have spent countless hours defending my beliefs to others who decide to look at me as somehow less than I was before they knew my beliefs. So I understand what it's like to be "persecuted" for your beliefs and treated with an unjust bias due to the same.
As I've aged I've learned to accept the way people react and treat me. Sometimes I almost expect it, so if it doesn't happen, that's when I'm shocked. People of faith are quick to point out why they are better, going to be better off or how sorry they are for me not believing in God...
Then you have all the closet Atheists, afraid to admit what they truly believe due to the persecution. On the opposite end you have those that take it way to far by getting offended by any little bit of religion that seeps into their lives. Neither group has come to terms with their own beliefs and the rights of other to disagree, in my honest opinion.
Atheist are the second largest group of people defined by beliefs in the US. Now if you add all the non-Christian religions to the mix, regardless of how small the groups of believers in the US, you will always have somebody being offended by others. This is simply going to happen because of the variations in beliefs and I can accept that too.
So as long as somebody has the freedom to choose rather to participate or not in an activity that invokes God or observes certain religious rites, I'm good with that. BUT the moment you try to take that choice away for any reason, I'm going to fight that.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 06/22/14 01:44 PM.
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All Pro
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j/c
George Washington
1st U.S. President
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
GO BROWNS!
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Quote:
I actually agree w/the message in the original post, but man, you really should stop trying to make analogies and comparisons. I don't even like you, but I actually feel bad w/how you are embarrassing yourself.
the only reason you think that is because addresses what's being discussed in the Redskins thread.. Otherwise you wouldn't care one little bit.
Quit stocking me.. Quit responding to my posts.. SHUT UP and leave me the hell alone
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Common sense......Common sense.........
I remember hearing about this once. I thought it disappeared a long time ago, sometime in the 60s.
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I agree. I don't see these people refusing to carry or accept money since all says " In God We Trust".
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I respect everyone in regards to having their own beliefs. I never try to force or interject my beliefs on someone who does not believe in God. That is as much their right, as mine is to believe.
It does not make me any more noble, better, nor do I judge a person upon those beliefs. There's good and bad in everything. Lumping everyone into categories according to individual beliefs is a large part of what divides our nation.
I seem somewhat conservative in some of my political and religious beliefs and somewhat liberal in others. But since I don't walk lock step with either extreme, I get labeled all the time.
I see it as an affliction within our society.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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That post took some guts. Kudos.
I believe in God. I think religious affiliations have ruined what God is.
I respect you choice and belief, but it will be interesting to see what your views on God are on when you face death. I know that sounds crass, but I don't mean it that way. I've seen many a strong man change his views about God when on his death bed.
I have some theories on that and it would be interesting to have a thread as to why that is. Is it because of man believes in God, or is it that man needs the idea of God?
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It is a message board and I don't have to shut up. I am also not "stocking" you. Heck, I am not even stalking you. LOL....for the second time. You made ignorant statements. Sorry if it bothers you that I called you out. If you don't like it............don't read my posts. 
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Quote:
I have some theories on that and it would be interesting to have a thread as to why that is.
hat's a great idea, I've just never seen a "religious discussion" end without one party belittling another...
It's why I stay away from them. Even if someone pushes me to it.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Politics and religion discussions. I generally stay away from them but will butt in to a religion topic on occasion.
#gmstrong
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I have roommates, ones atheist, the others religious, and they're best friends.
They just don't talk about those things with each other, cause they know they see it differently.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
I have roommates, ones atheist, the others religious, and they're best friends.
They just don't talk about those things with each other, cause they know they see it differently.
That's akin to me and one of my brothers on politics. Anymore, we just don't discuss it cause it gets us no where.
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Quote:
Quote:
I have roommates, ones atheist, the others religious, and they're best friends.
They just don't talk about those things with each other, cause they know they see it differently.
That's akin to me and one of my brothers on politics. Anymore, we just don't discuss it cause it gets us no where.
My husband and I are the same way - I'm liberal, he's conservative, and it's pointless to discuss politics for us. We have a great marriage, just agree to disagree on certain issues. We cancel out each other's votes on Election Day quite often, but sometimes we agree on certain issues.
#gmstrong
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Mixed race, mixed religion, mixed politics marriages are okay. BUT...
::Thundering Charlton Heston / Moses voice::
Buckeye / wolverine ~~ Browns / squealers marriages are an Abomination before The Lord God!!
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
There's no problem with praying, displaying the ten commandments or similar religious symbols. The issues pop up when it appears that the government officially endorses a religion. The government cannot officially endorse Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or other religions as stated by the structure of our government system. Equal opportunity needs to be given for other religious entities to display their rules, symbols, and other items the the sphere of public influence.
And as for "it's tradition/we're a Christian nation" argument...go ahead and read this from the Treaty of Tripoli. The f looking letters are actually an s. The final end to the debate on "christian nation":
Thank you for trying to explain the reality of the situation.
For those who "despise" change due to political pressure seem to have no problem with the change in our actual pledge of allegiance to include "under God" because of a desire to give a political jab at the Soviet Union.
The very same people who gladly stood up to sing "God Bless America" instead of "Take me out to the Ballgame" as a political jab at Islam.
A lot of the same people who insist on changing the freedom of saying, "Seasons' Greetings".
A group that want to change a lot of freedoms to serve their own religious beliefs.
These are a lot of the people who insist on changing the interpretation of the Constitution to fit their own needs.
It seems the idea is don't change stuff that a lot of people value because it helps them to secure their own identities, but disregards the same need of others.
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Quote:
Quote:
I have some theories on that and it would be interesting to have a thread as to why that is.
hat's a great idea, I've just never seen a "religious discussion" end without one party belittling another...
It's why I stay away from them. Even if someone pushes me to it.
Yeah, you're right.
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I am an Atheist. I usually do not express my true views on religion on this board to keep from offending others. AND I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.
Those who get offended over religious words or items in public locations seriously have too much time on their hands.
There is not much that can offend me. My whole family is religious with the exceptions of my late father, myself and my younger brother. I have spent countless hours defending my beliefs to others who decide to look at me as somehow less than I was before they knew my beliefs. So I understand what it's like to be "persecuted" for your beliefs and treated with an unjust bias due to the same.
As I've aged I've learned to accept the way people react and treat me. Sometimes I almost expect it, so if it doesn't happen, that's when I'm shocked. People of faith are quick to point out why they are better, going to be better off or how sorry they are for me not believing in God...
Then you have all the closet Atheists, afraid to admit what they truly believe due to the persecution. On the opposite end you have those that take it way to far by getting offended by any little bit of religion that seeps into their lives. Neither group has come to terms with their own beliefs and the rights of other to disagree, in my honest opinion.
Atheist are the second largest group of people defined by beliefs in the US. Now if you add all the non-Christian religions to the mix, regardless of how small the groups of believers in the US, you will always have somebody being offended by others. This is simply going to happen because of the variations in beliefs and I can accept that too.
So as long as somebody has the freedom to choose rather to participate or not in an activity that invokes God or observes certain religious rites, I'm good with that. BUT the moment you try to take that choice away for any reason, I'm going to fight that.
I'm a Christian.. As long as you don't hate me for that, we'll get along just dandy...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Am I the only Christian that believes in the separation of religion and government?
Its not that I care about anyone being offended, but I just don't think it lends to our government running itself in an efficient manner(Hee Hee) and don't see a reason why it is necessary. Why should the government spend tax payer dollars on symbols to represent any particular religion?? I think religion and faith should be taught at home, not in our public schools, and not by our judicial or legislative system.
I think people are all for MORE religion in schools, as long as it is THEIR religion being taught. Those same people would flip out if they put a Koran scripture up in a public building.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Well, since we've been throwing God under the bus and things have worked out so well, maybe we should try bringing Him back, so our Nation can be Blessed and we can get out of this mess.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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When did God and United States politics have a fall out? I don't think anyone has really thrown him under the bus.
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Actually you are incorrect....
And this is the huge misconception when it comes to the term "separation of church and state". That term is NOT in the First Amendment to the Constitution. What the First Amendment DOES say is that the Government cannot establish a State religion. meaning they cannot say....everyone now has to be Hindu. That was the intent of the founding fathers. They did not want the Government "forcing" anyone into any specific religion.
The government can "endorse"(money as a different story as it is not theirs but OURS) as many religions as it wants. But this "bastardization" of the first amendment has basically turned it into a promotion of atheism.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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I believe that government should have a system of justice that allows for complete freedom of religious expression. (as long as no one is hurt in the expression of one's religious beliefs)
However, to pretend that many of our laws and cultural mores are not based upon religious beliefs is not rational. The main reason that most people, especially early on, came to Colonial America was for freedom of religion. Whole areas were carved out for one religious group or another, who faced persecution in England. (due to the fact that the King of England was also the head of the Church of England) That is why we have a basic rule within the Bill of Rights forbidding establishment of a national religion by the federal government. It is my opinion that the founders never wanted religion to be removed from everyday life, or even governmental expression ...... however, they did not want a "Church of America", which ran roughshod over all other religions and denominations, and created a situation as took place in England. Many of our laws are taken from geneal morales, which have most commonly been expressed through religious expression.
Freedom of religious expression is not the same as suppression of religious expression.
As far as religious expression in public, I have no problem with that. If a school, for example, is 95% Christian, and they wish to have a Christian prayer, then they should be able to do so. If I do not wish to participate in a prayer led by someone else, then I am under no requirement to do so. I can simply remain silent in respect of someone else's prayer, or can even silently say my own to myself. If I were in a venue and a Muslim prayer were to be given, I would stand by silently out of respect for their expression. (as long as there is no call for violence, and not only by Muslims, but also people in certain so-called Christian groups like Westboro) I have no problem standing, or sitting, respectfully for a Muslim prayer, a Jewish prayer, or a Catholic prayer ... even though I have fundamental differences with all of those religions and/or denominations. I think that it is just a matter of being polite, and a good neighbor. Why should I tell people that they cannot express their religious beliefs in public? (or their lack of religious beliefs, in the case of atheists) I do not understand why someone would follow a different religions that I do, and I am sure that adherents to other religion feel the same about my religion. However, I have no problem with their following the religion of their choice.
I also believe that this need many have to completely remove religion from daily life is actually divisive. It creates an "us against them" attitude that destroys neighborly feelings, rather than enhancing them. I see no good in that pursuit. We learn to respect one another by learning about one another, and not by forbidding something so important, and core to many people, as their religious beliefs. I believe that all people who have a religion, and even those without, can all come together under a general umbrella that offers all the right to express their beliefs freely and without persecution. Make no mistake, many of these laws take on a form of legal persecution, and I do not believe that was the intent of the founders.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
The government can "endorse"(money as a different story as it is not theirs but OURS) as many religions as it wants. But this "bastardization" of the first amendment has basically turned it into a promotion of atheism.
It can just as easily be stated that the trend to prove the first amendment doesn't actually require separation of church and state is an agenda to create a theocracy. 
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As far as religious expression in public, I have no problem with that. If a school, for example, is 95% Christian, and they wish to have a Christian prayer, then they should be able to do so.
That sounds good, but realistically I doubt that can work. As much of the right the Christians have to say their prayers, the other 5% should have the opportunity to be able to say theirs. Now we run into the situation where we are saying 4-5 prayers which can't work.
Also I know many Christians who have the this silly mentality of "Christianity is under attack" so I can't see how some Christians are going to be respectful of the other 5%. They believe its their Gods given right to object other religions and will refuse to listen to any other prayers.
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Quote:
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You don't like the ten commandments on the wall of the courthouse? Don't look at them then.
The Ten Commandments outside the courthouse have always baffled me.
How many of them are part of the actual law observed by said court? Three?
Interesting, let's take a look though I think you are underestimating how generic the 10 commandments were written.
(1) Only honor God.
No
(2) Don't take Lord's name in vain (no swearing)
Not usually (it can apply in some situations under law for more general language provisions).
(3) Keep the Sabbath holy
Yes, usually. Saturday & Sunday are most often days off for the court.
(4) Honor your mother and father
Not really, it can be twisted to yes, but let's just say no.
(5) Don't commit muder
Yes.
(6) Don't commit adultery
Most places, yes in divorce proceedings adultery still plays a large role. California and others take it out, but, most commonly, yes.
(7) Don't steal.
Yes.
(8) Don't bear false witness
Yes. Plenty of marketing laws and corporation laws along with identity theft laws which could go under 7 but I think is more appropriate here.
(9) Don't covet neighbor's wife
No.
(10) Don't covet neighbor's things.
No.
So, we come down to a pretty clear 5 out of 10. I could make the case for more of them, but wanted to limit it to the clear selections.
Whether or not they should be on the walls of a courthouse is for others to weigh in on, but wanted to get a grounding on it first.
#gmstrong
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Well, since we've been throwing God under the bus and things have worked out so well, maybe we should try bringing Him back, so our Nation can be Blessed and we can get out of this mess.
How is not having religion is school " throwing him under the bus?" And which God is being "thrown under the bus?"
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Well, since we've been throwing God under the bus and things have worked out so well, maybe we should try bringing Him back, so our Nation can be Blessed and we can get out of this mess.
Was He around when we had slavery and women couldn't vote?
And were we Blessed then?
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Quote:
Quote:
As far as religious expression in public, I have no problem with that. If a school, for example, is 95% Christian, and they wish to have a Christian prayer, then they should be able to do so.
That sounds good, but realistically I doubt that can work. As much of the right the Christians have to say their prayers, the other 5% should have the opportunity to be able to say theirs. Now we run into the situation where we are saying 4-5 prayers which can't work.
Also I know many Christians who have the this silly mentality of "Christianity is under attack" so I can't see how some Christians are going to be respectful of the other 5%. They believe its their Gods given right to object other religions and will refuse to listen to any other prayers.
Why can't it work?
Heck, you cannot even have a silent prayer/meditation moment in schools, because someone might feel left out. I seem to recall a school that had a group of students who went to church together, and they would go off to a corner together to quietly pray. That couldn;t be allowed, because someone might feel left out. Well, I have news for you ..... someone is always left out, no matter what the activity. That's just the way the world works.
People say "well. by forbidding prayer in all public arenas, we protect the rights of everyone" .... but that is not true. The only people whose rights we protect in that type of case are those who don't want others to pray at all, anywhere they might see, hear, or even know it is happening.
As far as people not wanting to listen to other prayers, I would probably just listen to what the person saying their prayer was saying, and agree in my own prayer with the parts I agree with. If the person saying a prayer were someone I vehemently disagree with, I can always leave. I don't see a major problem. I "leave: many things on TV that I find inappropriate or offensive by changing the channel. I could easily do the same in person. I don't see this as something that is so damn hard to handle. I do find it ironic that many times the pweople who "wuld find it difficult to stand up all by themselves to leave", are perfectly happy to stand up in public and tell everyone else what they can, and cannot do.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195 |
I think "throwing God under the bus" is a statement that reflects the idea of choosing to be a victim that has burned through the conservative movement.
I know a ton of non-conservative Christians who don't believe they're victims of religious intolerance at all.
The weird part is when you consider how many of the ones who do claim intolerance would be intolerant other people claiming to be victims.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195 |
Quote:
Heck, you cannot even have a silent prayer/meditation moment in schools
Totally false. Quote:
I seem to recall a school that had a group of students who went to church together, and they would go off to a corner together to quietly pray. That couldn;t be allowed, because someone might feel left out.
Very possible, but seems to be lacking vital details. Quote:
Well, I have news for you ..... someone is always left out, no matter what the activity. That's just the way the world works.
So let's leave the church out of the government. Quote:
People say "well. by forbidding prayer in all public arenas, we protect the rights of everyone" .... but that is not true. The only people whose rights we protect in that type of case are those who don't want others to pray at all, anywhere they might see, hear, or even know it is happening.
Which public arenas? I've been to races, baseball games, football games where a Benediction was recited. Quote:
I do find it ironic that many times the pweople who "wuld find it difficult to stand up all by themselves to leave", are perfectly happy to stand up in public and tell everyone else what they can, and cannot do.
Are you talking about the ones who want government endorsed prayer?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,671
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,671 |
Here's my problem, and I've referenced this before on this board. It was, and to some degree still is, a pretty popular notion to associate Catholic priests with pedophiles. It has been done on SNL, Scary Movie 3 (I believe it was 3 at least), and a myriad of other pop culture shows/comedies/movies.
I'm Catholic, but I don't have a problem with it, in and of itself because I can take a great deal of ribbing and laugh with it (wouldn't know how I would react if I were a priest).
My problem with intolerance, as you and others have mentioned (Pit I think specifically), is that it seems we can pick and choose which groups we can put down. Quite honestly, if priests can be portrayed as pedophiles, why is it claimed to be so xenophobic to make caricatures out of other religious figures?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Or else intolerance is in the eye of the beholder.
Not arguing with your statement, but I fully believe if the Catholic Church wanted to petition SNL or a Hollywood studio to cease and desist they should be allowed.
I don't think just because there's some stereotyping we should allow all stereotyping.
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