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Jc
I like where this went. But it kinda proves my point.
Christians can't even agree on christian things, yet are trying to police the world.
Which is why I stayed out of it... I ranted a few weeks about getting into the weeds.. I don't think Jesus really cares which day we worship on as long as we do worship, as long as we have the day of rest away from work, as long as we live up to the greatest commandments to love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and love your neighbor as yourself...
You can worship on the right day, celebrate his birth during the right season, grow a beard, not eat shellfish, but if you don't love God and you treat your neighbor like crap, then Jesus isn't going to be happy with you. 
yebat' Putin
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j/c
also, rewatched Prometheus last night. extremely engaging film that has a bunch of subtle (and not so subtle) undertones about this very topic.
#gmstrong
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EVERYTHING came from NOTHING.
Is this your belief?
Prove to me otherwise.
Everything science teaches says its impossible for us to exist. If you believe in God then where did God come from. According to the Bible Nothing existed before God because he IS the beginning.
Revelation 22:13
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
God seems to be pretty clear there. There was nothing before him. He doesn't say he existed before time. When he came into being is when time started. HE is the beginning.
Everything in this universe when you break it down to its foundation is made up of energy. From quarks, electrons, protons, atoms, to you. Everything is just compressed energy. That is fact.
If God is the beginning as he claims then God is energy. Nothing exists without energy so nothing exists without God. Every single thing in the universe is a part of the body of God.
Science can't prove jack about the creation of the Universe except to say it started at a point of origin. They can state it exists.
Anything science says about how or why the universe came into existence is invalid because they can't prove it one way or the other YET. They use abstract theories they can't prove and try to convince you they know something that they don't and then try to convince you their faith is better than believing in God.
In the end the universe came from nothing. To say it has always been here defies all logic and the model of how everything else works. If your a true scientist then until there is proof otherwise you have to accept that the universe suddenly appeared with the big bang regardless of how or why. If you believe in God then you have to believe him when he says he is the beginning.
Either way, EVERYTHING come from NOTHING. Prove it otherwise =)
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Some scientists, who dive into murky waters, argue everything from the big bang came from the singularity. The singularity was every single particle in this universe condensed together. Eventually it reached critical mass and exploded. No one really touches the "where it came from?" question.
Astronomers found a plethora of evidence to support the big bang hypothesis. Waves of matter, energy, and other particles come from a central point. Science doesn't look at the god question.
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Usually the ones who do look at "the God question" become Christians  
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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There's no scientific evidence, from a respected peer review source, which corroborates with any religious belief. I'd argue most scientists remain agnostic.
Yes, it's a question of faith. I'd rather have a pure belief in something tangible than hope because someone told me to.
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Some scientists, who dive into murky waters, argue everything from the big bang came from the singularity. The singularity was every single particle in this universe condensed together. Eventually it reached critical mass and exploded. No one really touches the "where it came from?" question.
I find the topic fascinating but it doesn't matter what they discover or theorize there is always going to be the question, "Well where did THAT come from?"
yebat' Putin
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There's no scientific evidence, from a respected peer review source, which corroborates with any religious belief. I'd argue most scientists remain agnostic.
Yes, it's a question of faith. I'd rather have a pure belief in something tangible than hope because someone told me to.
That's exactly what faith is, it is believing in something you don't see and without faith you can't please God (Hebrews 11:1, 6) I have faith, I did not believe for the first 43 years of my life, then drugs and alcohol killed me twice and God showed me hell and what he showed me is in the bible (Which I did not Know) ... All the scientific evidence in this world will NEVER convince me there is not a God ... besides everything man receives comes from heaven (John 1:3, John 3:27) including the the Science you believe ... JMHO 
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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There's no scientific evidence, from a respected peer review source, which corroborates with any religious belief. I'd argue most scientists remain agnostic.
Doesn't that sort of seem self-fulfilling to you? I mean if you take a group of people who are scientists, who obviously have a passion for exploring the known universe, discovering new things, relating formerly unrelated theories and facts, etc... .and you say this group is agnostic which means they believe that nothing is known or can be known about the existence of God... then why would that group of people spend any time at all trying to verify something they, by definition, don't believe can be verified? Or why would they even consider that the focal point of the big bang, might have been a higher power and not just a very compressed ball of matter and energy?
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I'd rather have a pure belief in something tangible than hope because someone told me to.
If something is tangible, you don't have to have a belief.
yebat' Putin
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then why would that group of people spend any time at all trying to verify something they, by definition, don't believe can be verified? Or why would they even consider that the focal point of the big bang, might have been a higher power and not just a very compressed ball of matter and energy?
Beats me, I'm not a scientist  I'd guess curiosity leads people there.
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If something is tangible, you don't have to have a belief.
Semantics  You understand what I meant.
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Usually the ones who do look at "the God question" become Christians
Other way around.
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Excellent post. You did a great job stating how many feel - and I'm not attacking "science" at all. The art of science is admirable when it admits past mistakes (among many other things, for sure). There is also a problem with science.
We know more today than we did........we'll know more tomorrow than we do now.
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Usually the ones who do look at "the God question" become Christians
Other way around.
I don't think so.. but that's fine.
yebat' Putin
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Usually the ones who do look at "the God question" become Christians
Other way around.
I don't think so.. but that's fine.
I fail to understand how one could take a look at the question of whether or not there is a God using reason and critical thinking and determine 'Yeah, OK, I see it now...the snake told the woman made out of a rib to do bad things, and the virgin got pregnant, and the guy turned water into wine, and then they killed him and he rose from the dead. Makes sense.'
I'm not saying the God question isn't valid. It is. But I don't see how there's a logical or reasoned path in which one lands at Christianity from that question.
There's a huge irrational leap one needs to make to get there.
I don't know how you could believe that examining the existence of God would naturally lead one to Christianity.
Why not Islam or Judiasm or Buddhism? Why would the God question lead one towards Christianity over any of the other faiths?
Because it's a shortsighted view that's mainly rooted in location.
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EVERYTHING came from NOTHING.
Is this your belief?
Prove to me otherwise.
Everything science teaches says its impossible for us to exist. If you believe in God then where did God come from. According to the Bible Nothing existed before God because he IS the beginning.
Revelation 22:13
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
God seems to be pretty clear there. There was nothing before him. He doesn't say he existed before time. When he came into being is when time started. HE is the beginning.
Everything in this universe when you break it down to its foundation is made up of energy. From quarks, electrons, protons, atoms, to you. Everything is just compressed energy. That is fact.
If God is the beginning as he claims then God is energy. Nothing exists without energy so nothing exists without God. Every single thing in the universe is a part of the body of God.
Science can't prove jack about the creation of the Universe except to say it started at a point of origin. They can state it exists.
Anything science says about how or why the universe came into existence is invalid because they can't prove it one way or the other YET. They use abstract theories they can't prove and try to convince you they know something that they don't and then try to convince you their faith is better than believing in God.
In the end the universe came from nothing. To say it has always been here defies all logic and the model of how everything else works. If your a true scientist then until there is proof otherwise you have to accept that the universe suddenly appeared with the big bang regardless of how or why. If you believe in God then you have to believe him when he says he is the beginning.
Either way, EVERYTHING come from NOTHING. Prove it otherwise =)
I wasnt asking that question to challenge you. I believe God created all things ex nihilo
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Jc
I like where this went. But it kinda proves my point.
Christians can't even agree on christian things, yet are trying to police the world.
I'm not interested in policing. I'm just trying to be a faithful messenger.
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There's no scientific evidence, from a respected peer review source, which corroborates with any religious belief. I'd argue most scientists remain agnostic.
Yes, it's a question of faith. I'd rather have a pure belief in something tangible than hope because someone told me to.
That's exactly what faith is, it is believing in something you don't see and without faith you can't please God (Hebrews 11:1, 6) I have faith, I did not believe for the first 43 years of my life, then drugs and alcohol killed me twice and God showed me hell and what he showed me is in the bible (Which I did not Know) ... All the scientific evidence in this world will NEVER convince me there is not a God ... besides everything man receives comes from heaven (John 1:3, John 3:27) including the the Science you believe ... JMHO
Hey, I love your sig!! 
I have not once tried to prove God in this thread. It is a matter of faith. My point is that a lot of people are led to believe that "metaphysical naturalism" is a scientific fact, and it is not.
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I have not once tried to prove God in this thread. It is a matter of faith.
Then why engage in the argument in the first place?
With all due respect, faith boils down to 'because I think so'. You have nothing on your side in terms of reason. You're trying to argue a big philosophical picture with the fable of Jesus.
So...why not just let it go? Why try to argue against rationality and logic?
And I have a certain respect for proselytizing...if you believe it, share it with the world.
But don't get into a gun fight with a spork.
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So are you one who believes metaphysical naturalism is a fact?
I will ask you. Do you believe that if a propostion is not disprovable that it's antithesis is proven fact by default?
If you hold intelligent design to be undisprovable, does that mean that metaphysical naturalism is of necessity factual because of this reason?
Is metaphsical naturalism disprovable?
Last edited by LA Brown fan; 07/17/14 11:10 PM.
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There's no scientific evidence, from a respected peer review source, which corroborates with any religious belief. I'd argue most scientists remain agnostic.
Yes, it's a question of faith. I'd rather have a pure belief in something tangible than hope because someone told me to.
In that case you would be skeptical of metaphysical naturalism, because it is both unprovable and undisprovable, and is therefore not science.
Am I done beating a dead horse, because noone has agreed nor disagreed with me on this.
I keep saying the same thing again and again, because everyone seems to think I am attacking science, but I have only challenged one thing this whole time, and every response I've gotten keeps going back to "you're attacking science"
This is because science and philosophical naturalism have become synonomous in the minds of many. But is it?
I'm only asking questions for the most part.
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I know you resemble and utilize a lot of Socratic methods with your posting most of the time, but you seem to really have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to this. Either that or you're trying to goad someone else into overreacting.
Have we established the Christ story to be a succinct, fictional story? I think brazening the term "fable" is saying just that. Rationale and logic can vary. Hell, for all I have come across, the only existence I can prove is my own.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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I have not once tried to prove God in this thread. It is a matter of faith.
Then why engage in the argument in the first place?
With all due respect, faith boils down to 'because I think so'. You have nothing on your side in terms of reason. You're trying to argue a big philosophical picture with the fable of Jesus.
So...why not just let it go? Why try to argue against rationality and logic?
And I have a certain respect for proselytizing...if you believe it, share it with the world.
But don't get into a gun fight with a spork.
So are you saying that the philosophy of metaphysical naturalism is logical?
Can you present a convincing argument for it?
So far the guns have been shooting blanks, because no one has even tried to refute what I am saying. Your not even talking about the same thing. No one has even tried to defend naturalism as a philosophy. You keep diverting to science, but they're not the same thing
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I know you resemble and utilize a lot of Socratic methods with your posting most of the time, but you seem to really have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to this. Either that or you're trying to goad someone else into overreacting.
Have we established the Christ story to be a succinct, fictional story? I think brazening the term "fable" is saying just that. Rationale and logic can vary. Hell, for all I have come across, the only existence I can prove is my own.
None of it is provable or disprovable, in the end.
That lends to a great deal of gray area.
If we're discussing the concept of God, that's a deeper issue in which I'll leave my snark at the door.
But if you think that if you make God happy you'll get 72 virgins in Heaven, or that a man born to a virgin was executed and rose from the dead or that a man parted a body of water...
...I'm going to mock that.
Maybe I shouldn't...but, c'mon...you want me to take beliefs based on that seriously?
My problem with religion is less that people think that way, but more that they expect that nonsense to be taken seriously, and considered in the debate (hence this thread title).
I mean, believe what you want, but don't try to base law on the book where the guy takes two of every animal on a boat for a month and a half during a terrible storm...and don't expect me to pretend it's not laughable.
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Revelation 22:13
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
God seems to be pretty clear there. There was nothing before him. He doesn't say he existed before time. When he came into being is when time started. HE is the beginning.
I disagree with your interpretation here.
I can start something without being started by it. I can end something without being ended by it. I see nothing that says that God began, or will end, with anything in that particular Bible verse. Further, there was nothing that WE can comprehend before this universe came into existence. We see height, width, and depth. Try to imagine a world without those 3 dimensions. Take away time as well. I believe in God, so I believe that there is something beyond what we see, that goes completely beyond our comprehension in this state of being. I also believe that God existed "before" time, and before space, and light, and energy, and everything else.
I also happen to believe that the Bible was originally written (well, originally it was an oral tradition before being written down) to communicate with a less sophisticated audience. If the Bible said "10 billion years ago, before time, matter, energy, and anything else existed, God created the universe. Approximately 4.5 billion years ago, he began the process of creating the Earth, and the other planets ...." and so on, no one would have been able to understand the actual messages of the Bible. There are examples, parables, and so on, that allow for complex issues to be distilled down into a more understandable basis. The Bible is not a technical manual.
The Bible is written in a way that people of the distant past would be able to understand. God is the alpha and the omega of this creation. He created it. He then, by being the creator, had to exist before. God will exist after this creation is gone, and even "after" time is no more. Even in today's more sophisticated world, the concepts are not easy to get the mind wrapped around. I can't comprehend what an existence that is outside of time would be like. I can't even imagine it, I live my life in a linear manner, with cause and effect, action and consequence. I learned from yesterday, and apply those lessons to today and tomorrow. Without time, none of that can happen, and I have no idea how to exist outside of time, and how to even refer to a "time" where time didn't exist yet. I can't even come up with terminology that makes any sense.
I do believe that God could be a being made of energy in some manner, because he does say that He created man in His image, and I don't believe that He meant the physical form. I think that He meant our "energy", or our souls. However, I have no real knowledge for sure how God exists.
Even more, try to imagine "nothing". I can't. What is nothing? I can imagine a black space ...... but is that nothing? I don't know.
The more I try to wrap my mind around some of these concepts, the more difficult I find it to even apply language to them. Fortunately, God understands them all perfectly.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Usually the ones who do look at "the God question" become Christians
Other way around.
I don't think so.. but that's fine.
I remember watching this special on one of the science channels that has a scientist who set out to disprove the existence of God, only to become convinced that God exists instead.
It was a really nice testimony.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I know you resemble and utilize a lot of Socratic methods with your posting most of the time, but you seem to really have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to this. Either that or you're trying to goad someone else into overreacting.
Have we established the Christ story to be a succinct, fictional story? I think brazening the term "fable" is saying just that. Rationale and logic can vary. Hell, for all I have come across, the only existence I can prove is my own.
None of it is provable or disprovable, in the end.
That lends to a great deal of gray area.
If we're discussing the concept of God, that's a deeper issue in which I'll leave my snark at the door.
But if you think that if you make God happy you'll get 72 virgins in Heaven, or that a man born to a virgin was executed and rose from the dead or that a man parted a body of water...
...I'm going to mock that.
Maybe I shouldn't...but, c'mon...you want me to take beliefs based on that seriously?
My problem with religion is less that people think that way, but more that they expect that nonsense to be taken seriously, and considered in the debate (hence this thread title).
I mean, believe what you want, but don't try to base law on the book where the guy takes two of every animal on a boat for a month and a half during a terrible storm...and don't expect me to pretend it's not laughable.
No problem, I personally take no offense in what you say, because the way you react to the Gospel is natural.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, (1 Corinthians2:14)
The only way you will ever believe is if GOD does a work in your life. I do not expect you to be converted to Christianity because of the arguments that are presented here by jars of clay like me. You will be converted to Christianity when God reveals Himself to you and when you don't cover your eyes, turn your back, and walk away.
If He doesnt reveal Himself to you, nothing I or anyone else could say will avail, even if we presented the strongest arguments in the most eloquent way, even if the arguments were indisputable, we would not be able to convince you of anything, because all of us hate the real God by nature, (I once hated Him too), so we deny His existence or create a god of our own liking. We hate God by nature because we are seperated from Him by the Fall.
God has bridged the gap though. He sent His Son to remove that seperation, and He sends the Spirit of His Son to open our eyes. We are all imprisoned, shackled in chains, enslaved to our lusts, pride, fears, envy, hate, bitterness, turmoil, pain, etc. Then the Son comes and speaks and the door to our prisons burst open, the chains fall off, and we are free to rise and finally live in freedom. Yet many have grown to like the chains, or grown comfortable in the cell, or are afraid of what lies beyond it, so many sit in cells without doors bound by chains without locks, bound only by their own will.
For once God calls you, you have a choice to accept or reject.
I don't know if you've heard the call yet, but I pray you do.
Blessings to all. I will shut up now and know that He is God.
Last edited by LA Brown fan; 07/18/14 12:40 AM.
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I have not once tried to prove God in this thread. It is a matter of faith.
Then why engage in the argument in the first place?
Because you can't use a scientific argument to prove God.... but you can use a scientific argument to show that it has not DISproven God.
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With all due respect, faith boils down to 'because I think so'. You have nothing on your side in terms of reason.
But a small super condensed ball containing all of the matter and energy of the universe, which nobody can even begin to explain the origin of, exploding into an infinite cosmos and then forming into solar systems and planets and eventually spawning life which all function along these very delicate lines of balance all by accident seems reasonable to you? See, until somebody disproves God, it seems like by far the most reasonable explanation to me.
yebat' Putin
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I know you resemble and utilize a lot of Socratic methods with your posting most of the time, but you seem to really have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to this. Either that or you're trying to goad someone else into overreacting.
Have we established the Christ story to be a succinct, fictional story? I think brazening the term "fable" is saying just that. Rationale and logic can vary. Hell, for all I have come across, the only existence I can prove is my own.
None of it is provable or disprovable, in the end.
That lends to a great deal of gray area.
If we're discussing the concept of God, that's a deeper issue in which I'll leave my snark at the door.
But if you think that if you make God happy you'll get 72 virgins in Heaven, or that a man born to a virgin was executed and rose from the dead or that a man parted a body of water...
...I'm going to mock that.
Maybe I shouldn't...but, c'mon...you want me to take beliefs based on that seriously?
My problem with religion is less that people think that way, but more that they expect that nonsense to be taken seriously, and considered in the debate (hence this thread title).
I mean, believe what you want, but don't try to base law on the book where the guy takes two of every animal on a boat for a month and a half during a terrible storm...and don't expect me to pretend it's not laughable.
Not telling you what to believe by any means. Still if a being power enough to create the universe exists then I think he can handle a few miracles.
About Noah and the flood:
Geological evidence is very clear that there was a flood about 7000-8000 years ago that covered most of the earth where people were. That's scientific fact. It is also fact that Mankind had a major civilization with technology we still can't match today in some fields. That is also scientific fact. There are over 500 different stories from cultures all over the world that record the event. Many of them include an ark carrying pairs of animals. I doubt the ark had 2 of every single animal but I bet it had a lot.
Also, the the phase 40 days and 40 nights doesn't actually mean 40 days. It just means a long time. It could have just rained for 8 days because often anything over 1 week would have the mystical numbers of 40 be used. Hebrew number phrases were meant more for symbolism than for accuracy.
As for the red sea its very possible for winds to create a channel in water. They have run physic models for certain areas and found that it is possible. Since we know that a volcano eruption to the far north of Egypt was responsible for almost all of the biblical plagues including the death of the first born sons its also possible it cause a tremor that could have caused unique circumstances in the water. I am not writing a book here so feel free to look it up =) You tube has some lighter version of the info if you don't feel like reading scientific journals. You tube actually has some out standing documentaries. I often find a video that leads me to head to the library to investigate further =)
The only way you can believe Mary was a virgin is if you believe in God. Can't help you on this one.
It's also possible Jesus didn't die on the cross but just went into a near death. The things they brought to Jesus to treat his body were not things to ready a corpse for death but to treat someone who is wounded. Here is an interesting document from India where they claim Jesus lived to an old age and is buried in Kashmir. Jesus in India
When you consider how different Jesus's teaching are from God the father its very clear to see a STRONG India influence. They also have written records showing he was there during his youth before he went to preach at age 33. Very interesting stuff.
I'm not telling you what to believe but just keep an open mind =)
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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a man born to a virgin was executed and rose from the dead or that a man parted a body of water...
...I'm going to mock that.
Maybe I shouldn't...but, c'mon...you want me to take beliefs based on that seriously?
I sure do. God loves you bro 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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...I'm going to mock that.
Maybe I shouldn't...
Since you have an ample enough amount of doubt in your own thinking to say, "Maybe I shouldn't...", then maybe you shouldn't. Because mocking as you do is a sure sign of closed mindedness for someone who thinks himself a free thinker.
If you don't know; you don't know. So why speak as if you did?
My experience in the church was going to Sunday school with the neighbors which I chose to do as it was a fun day. Much like school but much more fun than school. I never understood any of the teaching. I was more interested in the finger painting, the group playing outside on nice days and the abundance of snacks offered.
When I was a very young teenager I spent a month one summer with my uncle and aunt in Kentucky (I'm from Ohio) and they went to church every Sunday and Wednesday. I tagged along out of respect for them but don't remember learning anything there. I guess it was the beginning of my close mindedness.
By the time I became a young adult I had figured out this "God thing". The primitives had no idea what the sun was or why it moved in the sky the way it does so they invented themselves a Sun God. They had no idea how or why their crops grew so they invented a God who oversees such things. The did this with everything they did not understand. They had Gods for everything.
Since we don't worship a Sun God anymore I took it to mean that once we learned enough we didn't need a God as an explanation. Going further I surmised that eventually all our mysteries will be solved and at that point we'll no longer need any God at all. That made sense to me. Since there was only one God left from the many we used to worship as human beings I realized that sooner or later we would not need that one.
I didn't actually go on a crusade to disprove God but whenever the subject came up I was not hesitant to voice my opinion and "evidence" for why God is not necessary so thereby doesn't exist. I was very strong in my opinion.
Fast forward 15 years and I'd found myself in a predicament. I'd been smoking weed throughout all that time. Whatever. I had a wife and a child. Our home and relationship was falling apart. She began going to bars, which is something I never did, and it was tearing up my gut thinking she might be looking for another man. Or if not looking may find one anyway.
Then the worst that could happen happened. I found her with another man. Quite by accident I drove by them sitting in his vehicle. They drove off in a hurry but later when I spoke to her I asked if that was her new guy. She affirmed that it was. I was devastated. I needed to figure this out, solve the issue and put everything right again.
Having failed to do so over the course of a month or so I began to think that maybe if I weren't smoking dope everyday my mind might be clear enough to think rationally instead of from the perspective I was thinking now. I often broke down crying at my inability to think my way to a solution. Having enough sense to know that it would be a long, hard road to quitting weed while hanging around my circle of friends of whom all smoked. I made the correct though embarrassing decision to check myself into rehab in 1987.
Brecksville VA Hospital was available to me through my veterans benefits. It's nothing like the rehab facilities you see on TV. Very military like in its starkness. The food was bad, the facility lacked any pleasing decor but nothing mattered to me except to strive to regain my ability to think rationally away from the daily onslaught of issues that plagued me and held me at bay.
The first night there was depressing. When I went to bed I was miserable. Even more miserable than usual because of where I let life lead me. I was spent. Feeling like I had nothing and nowhere to turn. Who can help at a time like this?
Lying in that bed on that first night I prayed my first prayer in earnest since I was a child at Sunday School. I prayed, "God, I know you are not there. But my best thinking has gotten me here, in a rehab facility, with a broken home and a broken heart. Although I don't believe in you, on the outside chance that I might be wrong about that I really need some help." I sobbed myself to sleep rather quickly.
I awoke in the morning with a smile on my face that has not left me to this day. I had no idea why I felt so good but suspected that maybe there is a God who cares about me. It sounded so irrational but I couldn't explain my new outlook.
I found I could think about my issues at home and our relationship without feeling overwhelmed in fear or sadness. I'd not been able to do such since the dilemma began.
There were times when the sadness did overtake me though. The first time it happened I was standing in the lunch line and was suddenly overcome, much like an anxiety attack. Desperate, I prayed saying, "God, I've heard you say that I should give my concerns to you, (probably from Sunday School or my church visits in Kentucky), and that you would take them. If you take them that would mean I would no longer have them. If you can really take them away from me then do it now". I supposed it was issued as a challenge to God because I'd not yet fully bought into the idea but within a minute I felt the sadness and overwhelming grief wash away.
I stood there in amazement as in a matter of one minute I went from an elevating anxiety attack to a feeling of peace. I was quickly buying in.
I remember another specific time when I was walking outside thinking, of course, of my relationship and my wife with another man along with my 10 year old daughter in that mess. I'd felt like I'd forsaken her by checking into rehab for 28 days leaving her alone with her mother, that guy and the craziness of their drinking and partying every night.
There was a picnic table next to the sidewalk so I stopped walking and set at the table. I lit a cigarette, put my head down and prayed the same thing I did while standing in the lunch line. Within seconds I raised my head with a completely different outlook. Different to the degree that I could still think about those things without feeling anxiety or overwhelmed.
Throughout a half dozen of these episodes I was convinced that there is a God and he can and will intervene if asked.
And it wasn't just the release of anxiety that I noted. I had a whole new outlook on many things. I used to find white people jokes about black people hilarious. Suddenly I found that kind of humor very distasteful. This was not something I sat and thought about and then came to that conclusion. I was simply and factually changed inside without my effort.
I had always loved the people who loved me and to hell with the rest. There were many people I hated without just cause. Suddenly, over a short time, I came to love everybody. Even those whom I didn't like. I could understand why some of them were the way they were and I wanted to pray for them. That was not me and I did not think that out. It just happened.
When I finished rehab I was drawn to visit a Pastor in a church. I picked one who couldn't possibly know me and I'd never have to see him again. My visit was for the sole purpose of completing the 5th of the 12 steps of AA, "We admitted to ourselves, to God and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs". It's a cleansing, a way to get things off your chest you've been holding for a long time. Things you'd never tell anybody and haven't. Kind of a confession like Catholics do. Kinda.
When we were finished the Pastor offered me a Bible. I refused it telling him that this relationship I have with God is very real and working miracles in my life. That I didn't want to risk that by putting anything (Jesus) between he and I. He understood but insisted I allow him to give me this gift and it was ok if I threw it away once I left. That's a no lose proposition so I took it graciously.
It sat on the top of my dresser for weeks. One night, lying in bed, I took it down and began reading the book of Mark. For the first time in my life I could read the Bible with some understanding. Any time in previous years I looked into it when a beloved friend had passed or some tragedy had occurred and I hoped against hope to find some comfort in the words none of it ever made any sense. This time though, it simply read like a book to me. I was intrigued.
I read every night. As I read I found my faith growing ever stronger. I already had faith in God by the things he had done with my life so far. Changes that were inexplicable by any other means. Now, reading the Bible that faith was being built upon. Not so much by the intellectual rational of deciphering of what was said, or blindly buying into any of it, but merely by reading my faith in God was getting stronger. Even when reading things that seemed to have nothing to do with what was going on in my life, still, my faith grew.
Such is the dilemma of a believer when trying to logically convince an unbeliever of the truth of God and Jesus Christ. There is no way to approach it so that it sounds logical to an unbeliever. Truth is, from the very beginning none of it was logical to me. But it was real, it was happening and my life was being changed for the better without me even trying.
The only thing I did was ask.
If you would like to experience what that dilemma is like think about your favorite food. Now imagine explaining how it tastes to someone who has never eaten anything like it. You can't say "It tastes like chicken" because they've never eaten chicken. How do you describe a taste and flavor? How do I describe the miracle of my relationship with God other than to tell you how it happened and what I felt? That's not necessarily convincing to one who doesn't believe.
An unbeliever can come up with plenty of ways to explain away my experience. But no one can taste the flavor of my experience and not come away believing in God.
I hope no one takes this a preaching. I was simply giving witness to the awesome power of God that came into my life merely by my opening the door a crack and allowing him in. Does it work the same way with everybody? Probably not. We all have our own journey. But I am a vastly different man the day after I put away my haughtiness and allowed for a possibility that in my infinite intelligence I hadn't even thought of before.
#gmstrong
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thanks for the great testimony
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St. Thomas Aquinas: The Existence of God can be proved in five ways. Argument Analysis of the Five Ways © 2004 Theodore Gracyk The First Way: Argument from Motion 1.Our senses prove that some things are in motion. 2.Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion. 3.Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion. 4.Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another). 5.Therefore nothing can move itself. 6.Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else. 7.The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum. 8.Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God. The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes 1.We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world. 2.Nothing exists prior to itself. 3.Therefore nothing is the efficient cause of itself. 4.If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results. 5.Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists. 6.The series of efficient causes cannot extend ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now. 7.Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God. The Third Way: Argument from Possibility and Necessity (Reductio argument) 1.We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, that come into being and go out of being i.e., contingent beings. 2.Assume that every being is a contingent being. 3.For each contingent being, there is a time it does not exist. 4.Therefore it is impossible for these always to exist. 5.Therefore there could have been a time when no things existed. 6.Therefore at that time there would have been nothing to bring the currently existing contingent beings into existence. 7.Therefore, nothing would be in existence now. 8.We have reached an absurd result from assuming that every being is a contingent being. 9.Therefore not every being is a contingent being. 10.Therefore some being exists of its own necessity, and does not receive its existence from another being, but rather causes them. This all men speak of as God. The Fourth Way: Argument from Gradation of Being 1.There is a gradation to be found in things: some are better or worse than others. 2.Predications of degree require reference to the “uttermost” case (e.g., a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest). 3.The maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus. 4.Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God. The Fifth Way: Argument from Design 1.We see that natural bodies work toward some goal, and do not do so by chance. 2.Most natural things lack knowledge. 3.But as an arrow reaches its target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieves goals by being directed by something intelligence. 4.Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God. http://web.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/aquinasfiveways_argumentanalysis.htm
GO BROWNS!
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Thank you for a tremendous testimony. It's funny ..... when I need God's help .... when I am hurting and upset, sad and in pain, I can pray, and I always receive a peaceful feeling that just encompasses me completely. I can feel God's love wrap around me. If I pray for an answer, I always get an answer, even if that answer isn't always the one I want. I have no doubt at all that God is real. None. It has not always been that way. There have been many times when I wandered, and wavered, and flat out drove off the road of Faith. God allows us to make our own decisions, and does not force us to believe in Him. He does not force us into a relationship with him. He extends His hand, and allows us to decide whether or not to reach back. He will do so over and over, until our time on this Earth ends. God is ultimately faithful to us, even when we curse and reject Him. I know, because God was so incredibly patient with me ..... like a parent watching His child grow, and screw up over and over again ...... offering a word of advice, only to have His child reject that advice ........ yet He was always there in my moments of deepest despair and sadness. Those times when I was sure that I could never recover from an injury, physical or emotional, I could plead with God for help, and could feel him say "Of course. I am always here for you." (not the spoken words, but the feeling) There is no feeling like the feeling where God draws you close, and you just know that everything will be OK. Somehow, everything will work out as it should. I cannot explain the feeling, but it is the most incredibly powerful thing I have ever felt. It is not just a feeling that everything will be OK, but a complete certainty that somehow it will be. It feels like God saying "Even if everything goes wrong, and the absolutely worst possible things happen, I will still be there with you, always, and will help and comfort you always." It is the ultimate feeling of love and peace. Some choose to reject the comfort that God offers, and that's their choice ..... but what a loss that choice brings with it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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... when I am hurting and upset, sad and in pain, I can pray, and I always receive a peaceful feeling that just encompasses me completely.
Some will say you are actually doing that to yourself. You believe it will happen so deep inside you make it happen yourself.
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It is not just a feeling that everything will be OK. Somehow, everything will work out as it should. I cannot explain the feeling, but it is the most incredibly powerful thing I have ever felt.
And that's the faith. I never allow myself to become anxious. If I say I believe God will provide and then worry over it is a lack of faith. When I'm faced with a dire situation I know God will provide so I don't allow myself to worry or become anxious. If I feel that coming on I will it away and wait for God. The situation gets resolved one way or another and it's been happening for years. But I must remain faithful.
That is not an easy thing to do until one trusts him completely.
Now that is not to say that when I want something, say a material thing or money or for some situation to work out the way I want, that I pray and have faith it will be done my way. I suppose that could work but I don't test it that way. But in times of trouble I have the faith that God will provide and he always does. Sometimes it is the money I need, sometimes situations work out for the better.
I never pray for what I want. I only pray for His will and the power to carry that out. Meaning I agree to be content with whatever he provides as an answer. Worry and anxiety have been gone from my life for years.
I know to some I sound like a religious nut. So be it. I'd rather sound like that than be lost in my own helplessness. And without God we all are whether we admit it or not.
I do want to make note of this: I don't go around all day telling people "Jesus Loves You" or talk about things in the manner I have in this thread. I don't use "Church Speak". That sort of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth when others do it. But when the occasion arises I am confident to share my experience, strength and hope so that others might hear.
I'm not ashamed to do that.
#gmstrong
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I have to say that your post was the best way I could possibly think of to describe why and how people come to believe in God.
The rest is j/c
I'm going in a different direction with all of this. The direction I'm taking is why I think even for those who don't believe, they had better hope there is a God.
Science can be a wonderful tool. It has brought insight into a lot of things. In some cases, it has also been a blight on humans. The FDA has allowed drugs to be made available to the public that have done far more damage than good. All of these things have been made possible by select scientists.
Why is it humans have a far higher rate of allergies than ever before? At one time, if you were the kid in class who had allergies, you were the odd one. Now, decades later, it's almost the opposite.
Scientists have proven, IMO, that global warming is real. But why? Because science and the greed of man have found ways of polluting the environment. Technological advances in the 1800's and even early 1900's including plastics and chemical compounds have been very detrimental to our planet. All brought about through science and research.
I could go on and on with how scientific breakthroughs have actually harmed mankind and our environment. I could go on and on with some of the wonderful things they have brought to light. But in the end, it all boils down to something I find to be very basic.
IF we as man are the absolute power, the be all end all in supreme beings, then we are doomed to extinction. We can see how when left to our own designs, we create weapons that can destroy our planet, that we will pollute the earth to the point that survival will eventually become impossible.
The very human nature of man is one of greed and advancement without cause to further man, but themselves. I would have to say that I honestly believe that if people would keep an open mind with not only the good that science has caused, but the detrimental things that it has caused.......
Even if they don't believe there is a GOD, they should probably hope they are wrong in their beliefs. Because if believing in science alone is their conviction, they should really take a good look around at the state of our planet to see that often times science isn't used for a noble cause and that our planet is far worse off now than it was when science hadn't invented many of the things that are causing our planet to implode as it is well into the process of doing now.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
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... when I am hurting and upset, sad and in pain, I can pray, and I always receive a peaceful feeling that just encompasses me completely.
Some will say you are actually doing that to yourself. You believe it will happen so deep inside you make it happen yourself.
That is one way of looking at it ...... however I cannot deny God's presence. I just see no way I can do so. I know what t feels like when I solve a problem, and this is a different feeling. This is an absolutely certain feeling that the problem I face is solved, even when I have no idea what the solution is. I don't know how else to describe it.
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I know to some I sound like a religious nut. So be it. I'd rather sound like that than be lost in my own helplessness. And without God we all are whether we admit it or not.
I agree 100%. It's a difficult path sometime, just because some people will tune out at the very mention of God's name. Some people will roll their eyes, and assume that you are about to preach. I always just hope that God will help me to say the right thing somehow, and will work through me, if that is His will.
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I do want to make note of this: I don't go around all day telling people "Jesus Loves You" or talk about things in the manner I have in this thread. I don't use "Church Speak". That sort of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth when others do it. But when the occasion arises I am confident to share my experience, strength and hope so that others might hear.
I'm not ashamed to do that.
I will talk about Jesus when invited to d so. If someone is sick or hurt, or in a difficult situation, I may ask if they mind if I pray for them. I try not to make a production out of it though I come across a lot stronger on here than I do in person. However, if the subject of Jesus comes up in conversation nin real life, I am happy to share my experiences and feelings.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So there now, we've ruined the thread by talking about God.
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Ain't that a shame .....? 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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JC ca·thar·sis noun \kə-ˈthär-səs\ 1: purgation 2: a:purification or purgation of the emotions (as pity and fear) primarily through art b :a purification or purgation that brings about spiritual renewal or release from tension 3: elimination of a complex by bringing it to consciousness and affording it expressionas pity or fear) Benefits of Catharsis ...The hydraulic model of emotions and venting theory The hydraulic model of emotions uses the analogy of the fluid flowing through a system. Emotional distress, if not expressed, gets stored and can create pressure in the system, therefore 'venting' emotions should decrease tension and consequentially the negative psychological experience and symptoms. The greater the expression of negative emotions, the greater the relief should be (American Psychological Association, 2007). Scheff (2001) shared similar views that emotional expression is a natural human necessity and discussed this issue from the evolutionary point of view. He claimed that emotion is not a cultural phenomenon, rather it is a natural body reaction and a way of dealing with hurtful experiences: "…emotional expressions such as crying are biological necessities. Crying itself is instinctual: the baby comes out of the womb with the ability to cry. This ability is unlearned. What is learned is the ability to suppress crying" (Scheff, p. 10). Scheff argued that suppressing emotions has important negative impact on individuals and societies. As part of the socialization process, children are taught, very often with punishment, how to control emotional reactions and suppress the instinctual need for discharge. Scheff stated that most people "accumulate massive amounts of repressed emotion, bodily tension which is always present but usually not recognized" (Scheff, p. 49). Scheff concluded that suppressed emotions interfere with thought and perception processes, with a person's ability to respond to others and to cooperate, and with the ability to tolerate strong emotions in others. Many mental health professionals support the hydraulic model. In contrast, some of the recent researchers challenged the traditionally accepted views that 'venting' negative emotions actually reduced them and supported the view that the release of emotion by itself without a cognitive change is not enough to produce a positive outcome in psychotherapy (Bohart, 1980; Kennedy-Moore and Watson, 1999; Nichols,1985; Rachman, 2001). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Many would argue it was not God that made you feel better but just simply putting a voice to what was stressing you out. I'm not demeaning your experience but its been proven the effects you describe are very common regardless of what you pray to. Of course that might just be the one useful thing the idea of God provides. It's far easier to believe we have some mystical being protecting and watching over us and made us just sooo special than to digest the universe is a big place where nothing cares about how insignificant we are in the grand theme of things. Do whatever you want I say. Nothing and no one will remember you 200 years from now anyways. No one will care unless your one of the lucky few who gets to have everything line up just right for you to do something special. Then we might remember you for 1000 years before your forgotten. I don't think your another Jesus so that kind of fame is out for you most likely. BTW when I say you its in general terms and not anyone in specific on this forum. What makes a person, a church, a community, even a country happy is for it them to have a purpose in life greater than eat, sleep, work(forage for food and shelter) rinse and repeat. Joining others with a similar cause gives you the feeling of belonging instead of being alone. Going to church, pray to God, being active through your church for your community is for YOUR benefit. Don't matter if God is real or not. You get your catharsis and sense of belonging all in one shot. I just find it funny when people go to church because they think they are helping God. If there is a god and God made the entire universe I don't think he NEEDS anything from us. If he exists then all the benefit is for us, not him.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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